I can't play and talk anymore! Please chime in if this is problematic for you, too!

[Pandamoni]

One of my favorite aspects of the game is slowly being chiseled away. I understand that elixirs make STS lots of money and it makes sense that elixirs were introduced, but when people have paid real money to buy elixirs they don't want people standing around blah blahing during a run. As a result, one of the best parts of the game for some of the more social players was stifled a bit after the introduction of expensive elixirs. I got around it by either being quiet or not playing in potted runs so I could still chat, run and keep up with group but still meet new friends in pugs, answer tells from friends while I'm in a dungeon, etc.

Now, though, it's even more silent and more detrimental to the team if you have to stop to say something. Even the least chatty players need to say something during a run once in a while and the new way of having to stop every time I need to say something is just really bumming me out. Will it ever change back or is this yet another change that I'll have to just get used to as the aspects of the game I enjoy are slowly leeched out?

Devs, is there any word on this? I saw a number of people comment on JustG's thread after Humania's release about not liking the new way the keyboard pops up, making it impossible to chat while running, but have yet to see this issue addressed by a dev.

[xcainnblecterx]

I'll talk in my runs lol in fact a couple times I was farming with a friend we were told we talk to much and that person or persons left. I won't talk as much in humania or other level that requires concentration, but if I'm farming an easy dungeon I'm goin talk it passes the time you meet new people and have more fun playing in my opinion. I can still move while typing l, just touch were I want to go and hopefully I can type fast enough befor I reach that spot

[Whirlzap]

My game LAGS and FREEZES when I type.
It's horrible.

[NotYoCookiez]

Lix Is awesome! Wouldn't it be so much better to chat in town while waring that elite helmet?

[kallima]

I agree! I loved joking around in dungeons and though I participate in both intense "GO! GO! GO!" runs and relaxed chatty ones, I do miss being able to crack jokes mid-run. I was always able to tap and text before but everytime my keyboard pops up my toon just stops. It does make it rather cumbersome to actually enjoy group runs now. Anyone that knew me prior to the introduction of lixirs can attest to the fact that I was rarely in towne because we had the luxury of completing dungeons whilst talking AND at out leisure. However, I am increasingly finding myself having to make a choice - stay in towne/guild hall and enjoy the social aspect I love so much about this game or run dungeons and be virtually a mute? I've only capped one of my toons, so I am choosing the social aspect over the "game" itself. DEVS, is there a happy medium that can be introduced? Your team has proven to be innovative before so I trust that a solution is within your reach. Hope to hear from you!

Off-topic: Does anyone know how to stop the voices inside my head from talking whilst playing? ;p

[slaveleia]

yeah, thats one of the best things about this game being able to talk to others while playing....non stop farming can get boring without some chit-chat...lmao

[JaytB]

+1

I actually brought it up a couple of times in several threads. I honestly hope techno email picks this up. She seems to be really listening to what players ask for. Maybe you could PM your suggestion to her.


Off-topic: Does anyone know how to stop the voices inside my head from talking whilst playing? ;p

Did you try hitting the wall really hard with your head? :p


Edit: there's still a way to walk and talk. You can tap inside the text box to move around, while the keyboard is up. It's far from ideal, but it works :)

[Riccits]

i would be happy just with a autorun functionality paired with screen rotation

[Pandamoni]

+1

Edit: there's still a way to walk and talk. You can tap inside the text box to move around, while the keyboard is up. It's far from ideal, but it works :)


I'm not understanding what you mean. I'll have to bug you in game :)

[wvhills]

The game would be a lot more fun if elixirs were eliminated altogether. I may even start playing it again. Pandi, you need to quit PL and come to the dark side in DL. No elixirs and tons of chatting. :)

[GoodSyntax]

Shoot....out of rep today, sorry Pandamoni.

I couldn't agree more! AO and Sewer runs in particular seems to have been the height of the chat while gaming era. I learned more about the game while leveling on those two boards than anywhere else.

Here are a few suggestions that could be implemented which would really re-energize the social aspects of the game:

1. - Implement an auto track feature where you tag another player, and automatically track their movements. That way, when you chat, you aren't left behind.

2. - Allow game hosts to "flag" a run as Casual, Farming, Thrasher, etc. so that you know what type of run you are joining. This would help to reduce the number of boots due to "Thrasher Only!" It would also allow me to choose whether I am in the mood for a casual game, or I am feeling like a hardcore farmer today.

3. - Implement a VOIP (voice over IP) option, that would allow the group to chat....kind of like Skype in game. Obviously, this cannot work in towns and other public spaces (too many voices), but for a map restricted to 5 players, I think that's feasible, and would be totally awesome! I would actually buy a Bluetooth headset just for this purpose (can't stand them otherwise)!

4. - Allow game hosts to "lock" games as Guild Only, so that only other guild members can join. Yes, I know you can password your games, but that becomes a pain in the neck, especially if you intend to run a full map over and over.

5. - Allow game hosts to "lock" games to a specific level. There are times when I simply do not want a person several levels lower than me joining, because it ends up being so much work to constantly rezz them over and over, while I am also trying to be the primary damage dealer. Other times, I just want to play, so I don't care if I get lower level joins.

6. - Provide an option to filter chat to Guild Only. There are times when I am in a town (Balefort and Humania in particular) where chat is being spammed by merches, thrasher parties and griefers. It makes it hard to keep up with guild chat. The only option would be to mute just about everyone.

7. - Allow users to host training runs. These would be games designed to help others learn crowd control, combos, class-specific techniques, etc. A map like this would allow the host to control when a mob respawns, so you could plan, set-up and execute a situation. Effectively, this would be a tutorial course operated by veterans for noobs, or anyone that wants to improve their skills. Allow the host to control which level and class to run the training on. For instance:

- Levels 25-27: Frozen Expedition, All Classes,
- Level 50: Stronghold, Bears
- Level 45: Plasma Pyramid, Birds, Mages

These type of training runs could issue a system message that "{User} is hosting a training session for {Levels} {Classes} in {Map}" so that anyone could join and you don't spend too much time waiting for a full class. Give the user the capability to either subscribe to these type of events or ignore them.



Just some thoughts. I haven't had my first cup of coffee yet so this may sound like rubbish to me in a few hours :-)

[WhoIsThis]

One of my favorite aspects of the game is slowly being chiseled away. I understand that elixirs make STS lots of money and it makes sense that elixirs were introduced, but when people have paid real money to buy elixirs they don't want people standing around blah blahing during a run. As a result, one of the best parts of the game for some of the more social players was stifled a bit after the introduction of expensive elixirs. I got around it by either being quiet or not playing in potted runs so I could still chat, run and keep up with group but still meet new friends in pugs, answer tells from friends while I'm in a dungeon, etc.

Now, though, it's even more silent and more detrimental to the team if you have to stop to say something. Even the least chatty players need to say something during a run once in a while and the new way of having to stop every time I need to say something is just really bumming me out.

It's the reality of the elixir-happy users. It costs real money to stop and talk as you've noted. Strictly from that standpoint, it makes more sense to only talk in town.


Will it ever change back or is this yet another change that I'll have to just get used to as the aspects of the game I enjoy are slowly leeched out?

Will it ever change? Probably not with the current degree of elixir usage.

I should note that even though it's a subscription - pay a monthly fee and play as little or as much as you want, WoW pugs are also like this. A player once told me - think of this like a single player game where your goal is to finish a dungeon, collect the loot, and get out ASAP. It just makes more sense. Just assume that your companions are NPCs of varying skill (a reality in pugs). It's no longer a good place to meet people.

Admittedly in WoW, the difficulty level does require some group coordination - things like crowd control, spell interrupts, etc of which PL has no real equivalent exist requiring a basic degree of communication. But in PL right now, the dungeons do not require a lot of communication - the mechanics were after all designed to be easy to learn.

[Rockxout]

I like how every problem people have relates somehow to elixers. Elixers aren't ruining the way you chat in the game. Maybe we should start flooding the forums how people that don't use elixers slow runs down. And for the record I've never booted anyone or seen anyone get booted from a run without having a elixer unless it was a full group. So if u don't buy platinum to use elixers stop giving people a hard time that do,and enjoy the free ride while ur in a group with someone thrashed up. But with that being said I would like to see something implemented to be able to chat while I'm running to the next group a little easier as well.

[MightyMicah]

Problem-can't talk during potted runs
Solution-join a group of potted noobs :D

Seriously though. I agree. I've been booted for talking in a game. That's half the reason I hate PvE. You just cant make friends or talk any more. At least I have friends in pvp to talk to...of course all the goons nowadays don't want talking in pvp either (no offense to the goons :P) lol anyways, all that to say, talking SHOULD be part of this game. If there's no interacting with people, why play an mmo?

Just my humble opinion
~MM

[bronislav84]

I've never been able to walk and talk due to having an onscreen software keyboard. I see this as evening the playing field. Just my 2¢.

[Whirlzap]

It's the reality of the elixir-happy users. It costs real money to stop and talk as you've noted. Strictly from that standpoint, it makes more sense to only talk in town.



Will it ever change? Probably not with the current degree of elixir usage.

I should note that even though it's a subscription - pay a monthly fee and play as little or as much as you want, WoW pugs are also like this. A player once told me - think of this like a single player game where your goal is to finish a dungeon, collect the loot, and get out ASAP. It just makes more sense. Just assume that your companions are NPCs of varying skill (a reality in pugs). It's no longer a good place to meet people.

Admittedly in WoW, the difficulty level does require some group coordination - things like crowd control, spell interrupts, etc of which PL has no real equivalent exist requiring a basic degree of communication. But in PL right now, the dungeons do not require a lot of communication - the mechanics were after all designed to be easy to learn.

Yes, there are games with these speed-run dungeons that are timed.
You'll need to have huge crowd control and skill chain coordination to be able to get a good time for this dungeon.

Let's see if I can post a video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l16BaSbrbQ

Ahh, here's a clip.
The ending clear part shows the final time they got, which is around 13 1/2 minutes.
That's a pretty fast time for this dungeon. And as you can see a lot of coordination is being used.

The dungeon is basically a run of all the bosses in the whole game, but with you having nerfed stats.
So the bosses and you are set to default level 1.

[Pandamoni]

I like how every problem people have relates somehow to elixers. Elixers aren't ruining the way you chat in the game. Maybe we should start flooding the forums how people that don't use elixers slow runs down. And for the record I've never booted anyone or seen anyone get booted from a run without having a elixer unless it was a full group. So if u don't buy platinum to use elixers stop giving people a hard time that do,and enjoy the free ride while ur in a group with someone thrashed up. But with that being said I would like to see something implemented to be able to chat while I'm running to the next group a little easier as well.

I think you misunderstood the reason I mentioned elixir usage in the OP.

Before elixirs were introduced runs were more social. People didn't worry about losing real money if there was chatting while running. Once elixirs were introduced I had to find either unpotted runs or run with potted friends but play quietly. While I enjoy killing stuff I get bored when I have to do it silently. I still found a way around it, though, because I understand why elixirs have been introduced (from a monetary standpoint) AND I understand the annoyance from potted runners if the group is slowed down by chatting. It did, however, diminish how much I enjoyed the game and lead to me standing in town chatting more often.

Now, with the release of humania, you are no longer able to run and chat. The keyboard pops up in such away that it disallows you from being able to walk while typing as you used to be able to do. This is my complaint. I didn't offer a host of solutions because the ideal solution is to revert back to how it was previously--an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" solution.

So, while you seemed to read that my main gripe is elixirs, I merely mentioned elixirs as a way to express when the shift began and that the charm of the game that made me spend money and stick around has been even further diminished with this latest change.

[Pandamoni]

Also, please don't assume that if a person doesn't pot up it has to do with a lack of funds or plat. I have play and I have money. I enjoy playing unpotted. Period. A "free ride" is boring as poop, IMO.

[Rockxout]

Idk join me if u see me on. Most of time I'm elixered and chatty as all heck. Most of the people I run with are chatty as well even when we're "bashin". Add me ig same as my forum and I'd be glad to chat it up while we farmed monster bash or something of the like. Also would like to point out how many of those runs do u think those people were at work and didn't wanna be tapping away at phone like they were texting or something on the job...lol. Just saying I do it.

[WhoIsThis]

I like how every problem people have relates somehow to elixers. Elixers aren't ruining the way you chat in the game. Maybe we should start flooding the forums how people that don't use elixers slow runs down. And for the record I've never booted anyone or seen anyone get booted from a run without having a elixer unless it was a full group. So if u don't buy platinum to use elixers stop giving people a hard time that do,and enjoy the free ride while ur in a group with someone thrashed up. But with that being said I would like to see something implemented to be able to chat while I'm running to the next group a little easier as well.

To begin with, if what you've said is true then you're the exception not the rule - elixir users often do boot non elixir users. And in case you haven't noticed elixir users often DO complain about non elixir users. I don't blame them tbh, if I were running 100% elixir runs, I'd also want the best return on investment.

I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but if it before mid 2011, you'll be completely unable to empathize with people who have been here since the Alien Oasis days and their values.

[demoncrate]

To begin with, if what you've said is true then you're the exception not the rule - elixir users often do boot non elixir users. And in case you haven't noticed elixir users often DO complain about non elixir users. I don't blame them tbh, if I were running 100% elixir runs, I'd also want the best return on investment.

I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but if it before mid 2011, you'll be completely unable to empathize with people who have been here since the Alien Oasis days and their values.

Did you even read what he said?
He acknowledges that plat users want the best out of their money.
However, he wants the keyboard-movement-chat thing back.
This thread isn't a go at plat users and booting. Its just a simple request for the old keyboard back.

[Pandamoni]

Idk join me if u see me on. Most of time I'm elixered and chatty as all heck. Most of the people I run with are chatty as well even when we're "bashin". Add me ig same as my forum and I'd be glad to chat it up while we farmed monster bash or something of the like. Also would like to point out how many of those runs do u think those people were at work and didn't wanna be tapping away at phone like they were texting or something on the job...lol. Just saying I do it.

Let's try this again. The issue is that STS changed the ability to type and walk simultaneously. iOS users used to be able to keep moving WHILE typing. We no longer can. Yes, my friends and I still sort of chat but it sucks now COMPARED TO before.

[razerfingers]

Let's try this again. The issue is that STS changed the ability to type and walk simultaneously. iOS users used to be able to keep moving WHILE typing. We no longer can. Yes, my friends and I still sort of chat but it sucks now COMPARED TO before.

That sucks for ios i believe i still can and im on android. Like auto doesnt go off and i can sorta walk but i sometimes see people stop to reply to me and im like why they take forever to type? Lol

Sent using spray paint from a "can"

[Pandamoni]

That sucks for ios i believe i still can and im on android. Like auto doesnt go off and i can sorta walk but i sometimes see people stop to reply to me and im like why they take forever to type? Lol

Sent using spray paint from a "can"

It may not be an ios issue then. I was assuming it was something new they implemented for ios users because ive never been able to walk and talk on my htc evo so I only play on my ipod.

[Pandamoni]

That sucks for ios i believe i still can and im on android. Like auto doesnt go off and i can sorta walk but i sometimes see people stop to reply to me and im like why they take forever to type? Lol

Sent using spray paint from a "can"

It may not be an ios issue then. I was assuming it was something new they implemented for ios users because ive never been able to walk and talk on my htc evo so I only play on my ipod.

[Livemau]

i think people on computor should be able to use mics to speak to each other and people on moblie can hear them and maybe even respond if we can utilize the phoens mic to speak with players in game

[Drizzid]

All chatting does is waste time in game and result in unnessecary deaths. I rarely reply in-game because if i do get the chance to play, I want it to be worth my while. You want to chat? Go to town; everytime you're typing you're slowing down productivity. Couple that with being non elixered and whats the point in being around?

[Yich]

All chatting does is waste time in game and result in unnessecary deaths. I rarely reply in-game because if i do get the chance to play, I want it to be worth my while. You want to chat? Go to town; everytime you're typing you're slowing down productivity. Couple that with being non elixered and whats the point in being around?

It sickens me that anyone would try to get 100k xp without any talking... If it is about money, I may only be worth around 5mil on game, but I've made more money talking than I have farming.

[CrimsonTider]

All chatting does is waste time in game and result in unnessecary deaths. I rarely reply in-game because if i do get the chance to play, I want it to be worth my while. You want to chat? Go to town; everytime you're typing you're slowing down productivity. Couple that with being non elixered and whats the point in being around?

You obviously run with the wrong people. I am coming up on my second year of playing, been aroind for all "elite caps", and am known for talking/chatting while playing. Ask anyone if I slow them up or if they die under my watch (I'm a tank.) Yes, I have my moments of straight focus, but I am not rude and ignore people while playing. If you don't have anything useful to add to a thread, stay off.

Back on topic...

I use Andriod and have no problem walking and talking like I have always done. There is an box in options that is something like "Enable Chat Box"... see if there is a difference selecting and deselecting this. :)

[Drizzid]

You obviously run with the wrong people. I am coming up on my second year of playing, been aroind for all "elite caps", and am known for talking/chatting while playing. Ask anyone if I slow them up or if they die under my watch (I'm a tank.) Yes, I have my moments of straight focus, but I am not rude and ignore people while playing. If you don't have anything useful to add to a thread, stay off.

Back on topic...

I use Andriod and have no problem walking and talking like I have always done. There is an box in options that is something like "Enable Chat Box"... see if there is a difference selecting and deselecting this. :)

Please, the relentless 'where u get that helm' hardly warrants response. I also dont rush to cap, and dont play for hours at a time. I dont play this game to social, I play it as a fun way to kill time when ive got nothing better to do. I usually run pugs even though im in an extremely active guild.

There's a time for it, but I feel no obligation to field pointless questions. If someone legitimately needs help, I will do what I can and I do frequently help out.

There are many more that share my view on this, and I really do understand why this is an issue. There is just an extremely easy solution.

[CrimsonTider]

Please, the relentless 'where u get that helm' hardly warrants response. I also dont rush to cap, and dont play for hours at a time. I dont play this game to social, I play it as a fun way to kill time when ive got nothing better to do. I usually run pugs even though im in an extremely active guild.

There's a time for it, but I feel no obligation to field pointless questions. If someone legitimately needs help, I will do what I can and I do frequently help out.

There are many more that share my view on this, and I really do understand why this is an issue. There is just an extremely easy solution.

And there are many, many more who like to chat while playing. You are missing the point of the entire thread. Not everyone joins pugs and plays for short amounts of time. Many like to make games with friends and chat while grindjng or farming (which I already stated). Again, your opinion is not what the poster is looking for. She is gathering information and this is an issue because a lot of players like to have fun while playing.

If it doesn't apply to you then don't post.

[Pandamoni]

You obviously run with the wrong people. I am coming up on my second year of playing, been aroind for all "elite caps", and am known for talking/chatting while playing. Ask anyone if I slow them up or if they die under my watch (I'm a tank.) Yes, I have my moments of straight focus, but I am not rude and ignore people while playing. If you don't have anything useful to add to a thread, stay off.

Back on topic...

I use Andriod and have no problem walking and talking like I have always done. There is an box in options that is something like "Enable Chat Box"... see if there is a difference selecting and deselecting this. :)

Thanks crim :) the chat box thing doesn't work...I've talked to a few more people and it appears to be an iOS issue.

[Pandamoni]

Please, the relentless 'where u get that helm' hardly warrants response. I also dont rush to cap, and dont play for hours at a time. I dont play this game to social, I play it as a fun way to kill time when ive got nothing better to do. I usually run pugs even though im in an extremely active guild.

There's a time for it, but I feel no obligation to field pointless questions. If someone legitimately needs help, I will do what I can and I do frequently help out.

There are many more that share my view on this, and I really do understand why this is an issue. There is just an extremely easy solution.

I don't think you are comprehending the issue at hand. STS made a change to ios keyboards that affects game play. Make sense?

[CrimsonTider]

Thanks crim :) the chat box thing doesn't work...I've talked to a few more people and it appears to be an iOS issue.

Have you asked if anyone has sent a report in? Might make a thread in the "Bugs and Technical Issues" part of the forum. Even if there is a thread, never hurts to check and see.

[Kraze]

All chatting does is waste time in game and result in unnessecary deaths. I rarely reply in-game because if i do get the chance to play, I want it to be worth my while. You want to chat? Go to town; everytime you're typing you're slowing down productivity. Couple that with being non elixered and whats the point in being around?

Ok you don't like to chat and run maps more power to you! This thread however does not apply to you. I say go enjoy a coke and keep on keeping on. Back to panda's point we use to have pretty complex and off the wall conversations as we were dodging traps (need more of these please) and now maps are limited to lol and ha. As a result we spend more time in the hall than maps. Seems like a simple fix to give us back our old keyboard system

[saool]

I'm not much for socializing when doing runs. Even in easy maps I tend to keep to myself. When someone talks (types) too much I tend to say something like "Can you guys talk later?" Usually during Humania runs. It bothers me. That's why I host my own runs (that way I can boot.)

Besides guild halls are made for socializing, and trust me go to Balefort for a minute, believe me you'll find interesting people.

[WhoIsThis]

Did you even read what he said?
He acknowledges that plat users want the best out of their money.
However, he wants the keyboard-movement-chat thing back.
This thread isn't a go at plat users and booting. Its just a simple request for the old keyboard back.

I did indeed read what he said.

1. He/she (Rock) feels that elixirs have become a scapegoat for all problems in PL.

2. He claims that he does not boot people who do not spend the platinum.

3. He evidently feels that he is doing a service carrying people without elixirs and that they should just enjoy it. I have particular issue with this one as many people do not enjoy being carried and PvE looking for a challenge, not to be carried or in the OP's case, attempting to meet new people, which is not possible with a person charging in front and killing everything in sight at several times their normal damage.

4. He is quite chatty when he uses elixirs. Again, this is the exception. If you do not believe me, I suggest you join random endgame dungeons. The majority of elixir users are not "chatty" - they are focused on killing things, something that I too am focused on when I pot up.


Ever since about late-August 2011, with the introduction of Nuri's Hallows, there was a noticeable increase in elixir usage. The difficulty level of Nuri's (and remember this was before the nerf) was such that many (and I would say most pugs without elixirs in 55 gear) pugs were not able to complete the dungeons without wiping often in many cases. That and a desire to reach the 61 cap led to widespread usage of elixirs, something that has continued to this very day.

Many 61s found that once they reached 61 that they had adapted to elixirs and often could not perform without them - leading to a significant number of people that spend the majority of their time farming in elixirs. In a sense, they had "lost" their skills and had become used to elixirs. Not everyone was like this, but a very large percentage of players. I myself was a heavy elixir user in this era, but I always forced myself to spend at least some time without them for good reason. I find myself being the exception though, and I'd say the majority of heavy elixir users (the ones that were good before in Sewers days, anyways) lost that skill. Another troubling trend I noticed was that when I questioned such people they tended to get very defensive with me. Having worked with people who have been alcoholics in real life, lets just say I know the signs of an addiction when I see one.

The impacts are widespread. First, there has been a noticeable decline in skill among the community as a whole. For elixir users, they had adopted a play-style designed to optimize their elixir usage and when they did not use, could not perform to what I would consider an acceptable level. For non-elixir users, many of them have since gotten used to being carried or wiping more. The introduction of being able to revive instantly for 1 plat (a feature introduced in the middle of 2011) and later the "revenge" for 5 plat has caused a certain degree of pressure to spend plat that wasn't there when there was a wipe, particularly on mages and has made wipes more acceptable.

The OP is unhappy about the social impacts of elixir usage - namely that she no longer encounters nearly as many people that wish to talk; emphasis is put on 3 things:

1. Collecting loot
2. Killing everything in the way of #1 as quickly as possible
3. Getting to 71 quickly

Finally changes have been made to the UI on both Android and iOS that have made talking difficult. I gotta say, I'm not happy about them either. From a PvP standpoint, it makes it harder to time heals with the smaller hp bar and manage mana. I don't like the chat system either - communication is very important in CTF.

[Pandamoni]

I'm not much for socializing when doing runs. Even in easy maps I tend to keep to myself. When someone talks (types) too much I tend to say something like "Can you guys talk later?" Usually during Humania runs. It bothers me. That's why I host my own runs (that way I can boot.)

Besides guild halls are made for socializing, and trust me go to Balefort for a minute, believe me you'll find interesting people.

This isn't what the OP is about, though!

The OP is about the fact that the changes to the keyboard for ios users is jacked.

I hate pvp but i don't chime in on pvp threads about how much I hate pvp and think it should not be an important part of the game. this game is multi faceted and we will all have aspects of the game that drew us in and has caused us to stick around. For me it happens to be the social aspect.

Yes, I could chat in the guild hall, which I do most of the time because now I can no longer chat and be an asset to the team as I was before they broke the keyboard.

I hope that makes sense. I'm not looking for suggestions to chat in guild hall. Other iOS users have griped to me in game so I decided to start a thread for hem to post here :)