***RAWR!!: A Comprehensive Analysis of Strength Sets: AO3 to Humania***

[CrimsonTider]

INTRODUCTION

On November 23, 2010, I entered the world of Alterra as an inexperiened bear. With no prior MMO experience, I wondered through the various stages, speaking to very few people and leveling through doing campaign quests. I wasn't until a few months later, with the introduction of the Balefort Sewers campaign, that I actually started to learn my "role." Still, my knowledge greatly lacked in all areas: specs, skills, and gear. Then one day, I was introduced to the forums and soon met the person I consider my mentor: MrWallace. From that point on, it was like I was introduced to a completely new game.

During this "revelation", I began to understand my role much better and worked to perfect my craft. However, I became confused as I saw a vast increase in "bow bears" or "dex bears." Eager to find answers, I searched the forums to study strength gear and why so many individuals were taking this route. My journey allowed me to meet many players and we collaborated ways to improve our class; through skills and gear. As time passed, we saw Nuri's Hallows, Mount Fang, and Humania enter into the picture and the role of the bear has gone from "tank" to "confused." It has been discussed more than once here on the forums about the death of the tank-bear and the rise of the "scatterbear." With this consistant rise of dex-bears, and the insane amount of elixir usage, many bears are either booted from fear of the scatter or act as if they are another bird as they stand in the back and auto-attack their way to the boss.

So what happend to this class? Why do bears NOT use the gear intended for them? Will we see the class disappear in the near future?


A LOOK INTO STRENGTH GEAR: AO3 to HUMANIA

Before we can answer the previous questions, a thorough look into the past, and present, "endgame" strength sets is needed to form a better educated guess. This section is to provide statistical data allowing for the reader to view each set in one section. After each set is looked at, we will discuss the changes from AO3 to Humania and what the future may hold. Pictures will be provided in the apporpriate section to allow for visual recognition of the stated data.

NOTE: Only the "top" endgame gear is included in this section. I understand other sets and combinations exist, however, we are only looking at what STS has given to the community to consider as the "best" during those compaigns.

AO3

Rift Sets - Lootable:

Power Armor of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 44 Armor [Part of a Set, From Galactic Overlord]
Overlord's Helmet of the Rift Req: Level 50, 154 Str 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 29 Armor [Part of a Set, From T'Paxx the Executioner & Galactic Overlord]
Screaming Skull Shield of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 34 Armor [Part of a Set, From King Mynas]
Gurgox Hammer of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 194-269 Damage, 1.4 Speed, 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 4 Armor [Part of a Set, From Gurgox the Great]
Plasma Battlesword of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 139-214 Damage, 1.4 Speed, 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 4 Armor [From Alien Minibosses]
Sunblessed Scmimitar of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 107-114 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 4 Armor [Part of a Set, From King Mynas]

Set Bonuses:

Rift Set I Overlord's Helmet of the Rift, Power Armor of the Rift, Sunblessed Scmimitar of the Rift, Screaming Skull Shield of the Rift +5% Dodge, +50 Health, +5 H/s, +3 M/s, +5 Damage, +12 Armor
Rift Set II - "Gurgox Rift Champion" Overlord's Helmet of the Rift, Power Armor of the Rift, Gurgox Hammer of the Rift+5 H/s, +5 Damage, +10 Armor

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2012-07-26-19-44-49-1.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2012-07-26-19-38-34-1.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/gurgdual.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/riftstr2h.jpg

Cyber Sets

Cyber Armor of the Rift Req: Level 50, 157 Str 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 46 Armor [From 100 "Ok'tal Totems" Quest]
Cyber Skull of the Rift Req: Level 50, 154 Str 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 29 Armor [From 50 "Cyber Shards" Quest]
Cyber Kite Shield of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 34 Armor [From 5 "Shadows Essence" Quest]
Cyber Sword of the Rift Req: Level 50, 158 Str 83-92 Damage, 0.8 Speed, 11 Str, 8% Hit, 2% Crit, 2 H/s, 1 M/s, 4 Damage, 4 Armor [From 25 "Captive Shadows" Quest]

Set Bonuses:

Cyber Rift Set Cyber Skull of the Rift, Cyber Armor of the Rift, Cyber Sword of the Rift, Cyber Kite Shield of the Rift +3 H/s, +1 Damage, +8 Armor
Cyber Rift Set II Cyber Skull of the Rift, Cyber Armor of the Rift, Plasma Battlesword of the Rift+1 Crit, +3 H/s, +7 Damage

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/cyberdual1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/cyberstr1h.jpg

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2012-07-27-09-21-55-1.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2012-07-27-09-22-13-1.jpg

SHADOW CAVES

Hate Sets

Guardian's Armor of Hate Req: Level 50, 157 Str 12 Str, 5% Hit, 5% Crit, 3 H/s, 2 M/s, 6 Damage, 49 Armor [From Shadow Anubis & others, Cave V]
Guardian's Helmet of Hate Req: Level 50, 157 Str 12 Str, 5% Hit, 5% Crit, 3 H/s, 2 M/s, 6 Damage, 32 Armor [From the Shadow Lord & others, Cave IV]
Guardian's Kite Shield of Hate Req: Level 50, 158 Str 12 Str, 5% Hit, 5% Crit, 3 H/s, 2 M/s, 6 Damage, 37 Armor [From the Shadow Witch & Shadow Demon, Cave III]
Guardian's Battlesword of Hate Req: Level 50, 158 Str 141-216 Damage, 1.4 Speed, 12 Str, 5% Hit, 5% Crit, 3 H/s, 2 M/s, 7 Armor [From the Dark Genie, Shadow Prince & Shadow Demon, Cave II]
Shadow Hax of Hate Req: Level 50, 158 Str 85-94 Damage, 0.8 Speed, 12 Str, 5% Hit, 5% Crit, 3 H/s, 2 M/s, 7 Armor [From The Dark Archer, Cave I]

Set Bonuses:

Guardian Hax Set Guardian's Helmet of Hate, Guardian's Armor of Hate, Shadow Hax of Hate, Guardian's Kite Shield of Hate +3 Dodge, +1 H/s, +9 Armor
Guardian Battlesword Set Guardian's Helmet of Hate, Guardian's Armor of Hate, Guardian's Battlesword of Hate +3 Crit, +2 M/s, +8 Damage

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/hatedual.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/hatestr.jpg

NOTE: Could not find a Hate Battlesword at the time of this post.

BALEFORT SEWERS

Fortified Set


Fortified Gemstone Plate Req: Level 55, 173 Str 14 Str, 8 H/s, 8 Damage, 60 Armor Levels: 55 Recipe
Fortified Gemstone Helm Req: Level 55, 173 Str 14 Str, 8 H/s, 8 Damage, 37 Armor Levels: 55 Recipe
Fortified Gemstone Shield Req: Level 55, 173 Str 14 Str, 8 H/s, 8 Damage, 47 Armor Levels: 55 Recipe
Fortified Gem Battle Sword Req: Level 55, 173 Str 136-162 Damage, 1.3 Speed, 14 Str, 8 H/s, 12 Armor Levels: 55 Recipe
Fortified Gemstone Sword Req: Level 55, 173 Str 120-128 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 14 Str, 8 H/s, 12 Armor Levels: 55 Recipe

Set Bonuses:


Fortified Gemstone Sword Set Fortified Gemstone Plate, Fortified Gemstone Helm, Fortified Gemstone Sword, Fortified Gemstone Shield +2 Dodge, +50 Health, +8 H/s, +4 M/s, +16 Armor
Fortified Gem Battle Sword Set Fortified Gemstone Plate, Fortified Gemstone Helm, Fortified Gem Battle Sword +2 Hit, +9 Crit, +4 H/s, +4 M/s, +6 Damage, +5 Armor

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/fortdual1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2012-07-26-19-35-11-1.jpg

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/fortdual2h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/fortstr2h.jpg

NURI'S HALLOWS

Demonic Sets

Demonic Glyph Platemail Req: Level 60, 140 Str 23 Str, 5% Dodge, 7 H/s, 5 M/s, 9 Damage, 66 Armor Levels: 60 Recipe
Demonic Glyph Plate Helmet Req: Level 60, 140 Str 23 Str, 5% Dodge, 7 H/s, 5 M/s, 9 Damage, 43 Armor Levels: 60 Recipe
Demonic Glyph Shield Req: Level 60, 140 Str 23 Str, 5% Dodge, 7 H/s, 5 M/s, 9 Damage, 53 Armor Levels: 60 Recipe
Demonic Glyph Battle Sword Req: Level 60, 140 Str 221-273 Damage, 1.3 Speed, 23 Str, 5% Dodge, 7 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Armor Levels: 60 Recipe
Demonic Glyph Mace Req: Level 60, 140 Str 198-273 Damage, 1.4 Speed, 23 Str, 5% Dodge, 7 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Armor Levels: 60 Recipe

Set Bonuses:

Demonic STR Set 1H Demonic Glyph Plate Helmet, Demonic Glyph Platemail, Demonic Glyph Mace, Demonic Glyph Shield+7 H/s, 7 Armor
Demonic STR Set 2H Demonic Glyph Plate Helmet, Demonic Glyph Platemail, Demonic Glyph Battle Sword+4 H/s, +7 Damage, +2 Armor

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/demonstr1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/demonSTR1h-1.jpg

NOTE: No pictures available for Demonic Longsword. Searched for over a week and noone has one.

MOUNT FANG

Crafted Orlok Sets

L65 Crafted Orlok's Chiroptera Plate Req: Level 65, 150 Str 25 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Crit, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Damage, 70 Armor
Vampiric Plate Fiber (3), Vampiric Bloodstone Setting
L65 Crafted Orlok's Chiroptera Helm Req: Level 65, 150 Str 25 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Crit, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Damage, 46 Armor
Vampiric Plate Fiber (3), Vampiric Bloodstone Setting
L65 Crafted Orlok's Regal Shield Req: Level 65, 150 Str 25 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Crit, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Damage, 56 Armor
Basic Orlok Buckler Shield (2), Vampiric Bloodstone Setting, Vampiric Blade Silver
L65 Crafted Orlok's Chiroptera Claymore Req: Level 65, 150 Str 217-292 Damage, 1.3 Speed, 25 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Crit, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Armor
Basic 2H Orlok Blade (2), Vampiric Bloodstone Setting, Vampiric Blade Silver
L65 Crafted Orlok's Chiroptera Sword Req: Level 65, 150 Str 170-200 Damage, 1.3 Speed, 25 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Crit, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 11 Armor
Basic 1H Orlok Sword (2), Vampiric Bloodstone Setting, Vampiric Blade Silver

Set Bonuses:

Crafted Orlok sword set bonus (helm, plate, shield, sword): +3 Str, +1% Dodge, +7 H/s, +7 Armor
Crafted Orlok claymore set bonus (helm, plate, claymore): +3 Str, +5% Crit, +5 H/s

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/orlokdual1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2012-07-26-20-12-16-1.jpg

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/orlokdual2h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/orlokstr2h.jpg

HUMANIA

Tiki God's Sand Walker Swathe
Req: Level 70/160 Base STR Stats: 33 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Hit, 3% Crit, 5 Health, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 15 Damage, 82 Armor
Tiki God's Sand Walker Helm
Req: Level 70/160 Base STR Stats: 33 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Hit, 3% Crit, 5 Health, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 15 Damage, 61 Armor
Tiki God's Sand Walker Scimitar
Req: Level 70/160 Base STR Stats: 240-315 Damage, 1.3 Speed, 33 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Hit, 3% Crit, 5 Health, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 16 Armor
Tribal Tiki Crusher of Emotion
Req: Level 70/160 Base STR Stats: 200-234 Damage, 1.1 Speed, 33 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Hit, 3% Crit, 5 Health, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 16 Armor
Tiki God's Sand Walker Drum
Req: Level 70/160 Base STR Stats: 33 Str, 7% Dodge, 3% Hit, 3% Crit, 5 Health, 8 H/s, 5 M/s, 15 Damage, 72 Armor

Set Bonuses:

Tiki God Sand Walker (1h) - +3 dodge, +24 health, +4 health regeneration, +4 maximum damage
Tiki God Sand Walker (2h) - +2 health, +4 health regeneration, +15 armor

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/humandual1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/humanstr1h.jpg

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/humandual2h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/humanstr2h.jpg


ANALYSIS

Now that the data has been provided, we need to take a look at the "evolution" of the strength set through each campaign. (It should be noted, as we go from this point, I am a level 71 with a Mecha Bear face. This will skew the properties of the sets and does not reflect how the sets will perform at varying levels within the game.)

Defensive stats

I will first look into the defensive statistics of the sets. If we look at the defensive stats (or set survivability), I will compare each set to the next as well as the differences between pure strength and dual spec.

Working our way down, I will begin with dodge, followed by health, health regen, and armor:

Dodge: (dual, str)

Rift: 16 (1h); 8, 11 (2h)
Cyber: 11 (1h), 8, 11 (2h)
Hate: 12, 14
Fortified: 9,11 (1h); 11, 13(2h)
Demonic: 32
Crafted Orlok: 38,41 (1h); 31, 37 (2h)
Sand Walker: 39,41 (1h); 31, 34 (2h)

Health (health regen):

Rift: 754 (19), 853 (21); 698 (17), 796 (19)
Cyber: 738(17), 832(19); 718(15), 816(17)
Hate: 736 (20), 834(21)
Fortified: ??(47), ??(49); 702(34), 801(36)
Demonic: 733(41), 832(43)
Crafted Orlok: 737(46), 836(48); 724(35), 823(37)
Sand Walker: 784 (40), 882(42); 746(32), 844(34)

Armor:

Rift: 139, 144; 103, 108
Cyber: 138, 142; 97, 102
Hate: 151, 156
Fortified: 189, 194; 31, 135
Demonic: 198,203
Crafted Orlok: 210, 215; 146,151
Sand Walker: 265, 270; 179, 184

Looking at the defensive stats, a steady increase in each stat was seen in each category with exception to health and health regen. Those two categories seem to go up then down with each update with Fortified being the highest for health pool and Crafted Orlok highest for regen.

Offensive Categories

I will know break down the major offensive categories: Hit%, Critical Hit, and Base Damage. (I will not focus on dps as base damage is the major statistic factoring into skill damage.) The categories will be separated in the same fashion as the defensive categories.

Hit %:

Rift: 131, 99; 123, 91
Cyber: 131, 99; 123, 91
Hate: 119, 87
Fortified: 99, 67; 101- 69
Demonic: 99, 67
Crafted Orlok: 99, 67; 99, 67
Sand Walker: 111, 79; 111, 79

Crit:

Rift: 26, 25; 22, 22
Cyber: 26, 25; 22, 22
Hate: 34, 33
Fortified: 14, 14; 23, 22
Demonic: 15, 15
Crafted Orlok: 27, 27; 28, 27
Sand Walker: 28, 28; 31, 31

Damage range:

Rift: 173-180, 137-144; 246-321, 220-295
Cyber: 145-154, 109-118; 193-268, 167-242
Hate: 142-151, 117-126
Fortified: 184-191, 158-165; 200-226, 174-200
Demonic: 278-353, 242-317
Crafted Orlok: 247-276, 221-250; 286-361, 260-335
Sand Walker: 286-320, 260-298; 330-405, 305-380

From an offensive standpoint, strength sets have received a gradual increase in base damge. However, Hit% and Critical Hit has been very sporadic. We see Critical hit take a slight nose dive after AO3 then gradually climb back up after Fang. However, Hit % has taken a drastic nose dive since AO3 and has never recovered.

Skills - Stomp

Below are stats showing the damage the skill "Stomp" provides while equipping crafted Humania gear:

Pure Strength (Sand Walker 1h/2h):

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/swstr1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/swstr2h.jpg

Dual Strength/Dexterity (Sand Walker 1h/2h):

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/swdual1h.jpghttp://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/swdual2h.jpg

Dual Strength Dexterity (Sand Skipper Crossbone Set):

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/ssdualcross.jpg

Looking at skill damage, we can make notice of two main points: (1) Dual speccing (having dexterity) adds to damage range efficiency, and (2) more strength adds to top end skill damage.

When comparing strength sets, we notice a lower base damage with pure strength speccing. However, we also notice an average increase of 3 points in top end damage. This may not seem like a lot, but it can be argued, especially in pvp, each damage point is essential.

When comparing the two strength set setups with the Sand Walker Crossbone set, we see a skill damage that is more efficient (range from low to high) than the 1h/2h Sand Walker sets, yet similar to the 1h set. The 2h Sand Walker set is far superior to the Sand Skipper Crossbone set when looking at skill damage. This is where the "bow bear" argument comes into play. Many bears use dex sets because of the psuedo-belief that dex sets provide more damage. In fact, while they do increase hit% and dps, the skill damage lacks and makes a tank less effective.


DISCUSSION

I will keep the discussion section relatively short. This is where I would like the community to chime in and post any thoughts/ideas/critiques. I will, however, begin the discussions with my observations and thoughts over almost 2 years of analysis.

Overall, I feel strength sets are sufficient in most areas. My biggest disappointment comes in the category of Hit%. Bears are the only class which cannot run as a "pure" as our ability to land attacks/skills becomes practically non-existent with this setup. The issue is not as great in PVE as it is in PVP as there is more support in PVE. With that being said, this category is the main reason why many bears have gone dual-spec or dex. In PVE, with the increased dodge encountered with mobs, a low hit% increases the chance of not pulling more mobs, and thus, makes the need for a bear to tank much lower.

The same can be said for PVP. With the debuffs available to mages and birds, a 69% hit drops drastically in a very quick time and thus makes any form of PVP difficult. Yes, many bears are counted on to be the "flag carrier" in CTF or the "speed bump" in FFA, but honestly, it gets boring. To know that I am useless if I don't dodge a debuff makes this part of the game less appealing. Also, with the increase in armor from the other two classes and by far the lowest damage of the 3, bears need a little boost to our pride.

So what are your thoughts? This is where YOU chime in and make your voice heard!


CONCLUSION

As you can tell, I am very passionate about this class. Since the creation of my "main", I have 8 other bears scattered through various levels. The purpose of this thread is to congregate all of the discussion over the past year or so and localize it. My hope is to have a meaningful, and successful, discussion to improve the class and educate the community. Please remember when posting to keep comments constructive and meaningful. It will greatly upset me to put this much time into a thread and have to have it locked because of ignorance and selfishness.

Special Thanks and Recognition

I want to thank JaytB, Badazz, and Stank for allowing me to borrow sets I did not have.

Special recognition to Yanis, Drewcapu, Whirlz, and JaytB for the set information. Without you guys, I would not even be half finished at this point.

Hope you all find this informative!!

-Crim

[Worship]

Nice Crimson! Glad you could finish this project!! :o

[CrimsonTider]

EDIT: Fixed picture problems. Thanks Drew!

[Rawrimafish]

u called?

[Jcyee]

Wow this is great! Esp since my main is a bear as well ;) thx crimson!

[Kraze]

Almost Dante inferno long.... However very valid points hopefully a pure bear age may be on the horizon

[FluffNStuff]

AWESOME! But I got a request. This would be absolutely perfect if you would add the stomp damage range for each of the sets at the end with the stat comparison to see how they affect skill damage.

[Chopper]

great work!!!

As a bird, i appreciate Bears that act like Bears and not hanging out at the back shooting crossbows while the party in front of them gets killed ha ha

Dam, the Demonic set still looks bad ***!

[JaytB]

Great job Crim! I bet you didn't type all that on your phone :p

I think your topic shows very clear in what bears currently (as in the last couple of caps) are lacking. There seems to be an easy fix for all this, give us bears hit%!

If bears would at least get some hit%, a pure build would finally be possible. As I told you in game, Ellyidol has been advocating something similar in the past. STS didn't seem to take notice though.

Now, I can see how hit% could become a problem when it would be 100% for a full str bear. It would mean that a dual spec would have a huge amount of hit that can hardly be debuffed below 100% in a 1vs1 fight. And that huge hit% would hardly come at any cost, because dex almost adds the same to skill dmg as compared to str.

The way I see it, bears should get a valid full str option, as is the case with mages (full INT) or birds (full dex). One way to achieve this is increasing hit% to at least 100% for a full str bear in top gear, while simultaneously decreasing the skill dmg that dex adds. So, basically when you'd add more dex, you'd gain hit at the cost of skill dmg.

Thoughts?

[Moogerfooger]

Nice job, hoss. I had no ideer that 'bama boys could string more than six words together to form a sentence :rolleyes:

[JaytB]

Nice job, hoss. I had no ideer that 'bama boys could string more than six words together to form a sentence :rolleyes:

He has his bright moments LOL :D

[Energizeric]

Excellent writeup. I'd like to see the skill dmg comparison as well. I'm currently debating whether to go 1H or 2H on the Lvl 70 set, so a comparison of the skill damage would definitely be useful.

[Walkhardd]

Great. Just what we need. Another half arse guide/analysis taking up precious forum space...lol.

Great work, bro. :D

[CrimsonTider]

AWESOME! But I got a request. This would be absolutely perfect if you would add the stomp damage range for each of the sets at the end with the stat comparison to see how they affect skill damage.


Excellent writeup. I'd like to see the skill dmg comparison as well. I'm currently debating whether to go 1H or 2H on the Lvl 70 set, so a comparison of the skill damage would definitely be useful.

Well guess what good 'ole Crim has sitting aside, pics of stomp at all options. Wasn't sure if it wouod make the thread too long. I wil get them added soon.

Thanks for feedback guys and keep it coming! Even birdbrains like Moooooog! ;)

[FluffNStuff]

Well guess what good 'ole Crim has sitting aside, pics of stomp at all options. Wasn't sure if it wouod make the thread too long. I wil get them added soon.

Thanks for feedback guys and keep it coming! Even birdbrains like Moooooog! ;)

All out of lazy thanks so I will have to do it the old fashioned way.

Thanks!

[JaytB]

Excellent writeup. I'd like to see the skill dmg comparison as well. I'm currently debating whether to go 1H or 2H on the Lvl 70 set, so a comparison of the skill damage would definitely be useful.

Skill dmg of str sets (crafted and uncrafted), can be found here...

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?t=64042

[Whirlzap]

Jay guessed correctly.
Had to be something about STR gear O.o

[ThePvpTwink]

Nice job.

[Worship]

u called?

Haha! As soon as I saw the title, I scrolled down to see if you would say something about it.. Haha am I the only one that noticed your post? O.o

[NECROREAPER]

Crim, you can borrow my 2H Hate sword for your analysis if you like.

[CrimsonTider]

Crim, you can borrow my 2H Hate sword for your analysis if you like.

That would be awesome! I have to take some new pics anyway. I'll pm you later to work out a time.

[GoodSyntax]

Well written and informative. Great job Crimson!

If you intend to write one for mages, I would be happy to assist!

+1

[CrimsonTider]

Well written and informative. Great job Crimson!

If you intend to write one for mages, I would be happy to assist!

+1

Thank you. I probably won't do one for mages as I don't play that class often. This was more of a "final cry" to make hit% respectabke for bears.

@Necro - I actually found a Hate Battlesword for dirt cheap just now. Thanks for offering tho!

[JaytB]

No more like minded people about the hit% increase and dex skill-dmg decrease.

A full str bear should get at least 100% hit to finally be a valid option in game too.

[CrimsonTider]

No more like minded people about the hit% increase and dex skill-dmg decrease.

A full str bear should get at least 100% hit to finally be a valid option in game too.

Gonna log in tonight and get screenies for skill dmg.

[CrimsonTider]

Finally added a skill damage analysis. Please read so we can discuss further. Thanks to all for the kind words and pms!

[bramer]

Nice job! But, one thing I think you should is the elite lv 71 strength set, so we can see how it is.

[CrimsonTider]

Nice job! But, one thing I think you should is the elite lv 71 strength set, so we can see how it is.


Thank you! The Elite items are limited to weapons and do not contribute to the LvL 70 Crafted Set bonus. Thus, why they were excluded.

[Energizeric]

I'd say wait on the elite weapons. One of the developers said something about adding set bonus for crafted armor & helm with elite weapon. No point in doing analysis now if it needs to be redone in a week or two.

[Phoenixking]

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x343/phoenixarmada13/119ca2c0.jpg
And nice job with this thread

[Rauekat]

Roll Tide! Best guide ever!!

[JaytB]

Finally added a skill damage analysis. Please read so we can discuss further. Thanks to all for the kind words and pms!


First off, sorry for the lack of formatting, I'm posting this from my iPad using tapatalk :/

The first thing I wanted to do when I saw that last stomp dmg comparison vs bow set, was say something like 'but, you'll gain a lot of crit, so also skill dmg in the end'. But then I realized I couldn't point out how much you'd gain.

So, I did a very simple comparison, purely based on skill dmg. Since pure str isn't really an option because of lack of hit%, I compared vs the dual spec 2h sword set.

You got 31 crit with the 2hander, while sand skipper would give a dual spec (160str) bear a healthy 51 crit. That's a whole 20 crit more. But how much more dmg would that mean?

I took minimum and maximum stomp dmg for each set, and calculated the total average dmg your stomp would do. I based it off average dmg of stomp (min+max dmg)/2. I calculated the average dmg over 100 hits with stomp, while critical dmg is calculated as 2x average dmg.

Note that in Belgium a comma (,) is the decimal separator and a point (.) is the thousands separator.

Bow set:
Skill dmg: 369/386
average dmg: 377,5 dmg
Crit: 51%

So, theoretically, when you'd hit an enemy 100 times, that would be 49 X average dmg + 51 (crit) X 2xaverage dmg.

Or 49x377.5 = 18.497,5 dmg
+
51x(2x377.5) = 38.505 dmg

Would make a total of: 57.002,5 dmg


2h sword set:
Skill dmg: 376/398
Average dmg: 387 dmg
31 crit

Or total dmg (following same formula again):
(69x387) + (31X(387x2))= 50.697 dmg

So basically, when purely speaking about skill dmg, you'll gain roughly 12+% by using the bow set, that's on top of the additional range. That's a lot, if you'd ask me, even more so when you're using trashers in your pve grinding sessions.

Auto-attack dmg would more difficult to calculate because we don't know 'true' dps, but that 2H sword has some serious slowmo action against it. And of course again, that range...

So all in all, if you wanted to maximize dmg on a bear, the bow set would be the better choice IMO.

Now, IF STS would make it so that dex adds less skill dmg, and full str would have 100hit with more skill dmg, then I'd say a 2H sword would be more of an option for dmg focussed bears. Although, it's only fair to notice that you do gain 10% dodge and 10 armor with that set, so it does increase survivability. I guess the increase in survivability must come with some cost, in this case dmg.

[Energizeric]

The problem with the bow set on a bear is you cannot effectively use your skills. Yes you can use beckon and stomp, but bears cause the most damage when using the melee skills, and they cannot be used with a bow.

I do have a Tiki Bow set, and while it is fun to use when I'm in a big group, if I have to cause max damage, it is not the way to go.


Edit: Actually the best damage set for a bear is the one not discussed here but is the shanks. With the Shanks set I can tear apart just about any boss (or mobs) much faster than any of the STR gear can. The shanks has the same 51 crit as the bow, but you can use your melee skills with it, plus it's fast and has very high dps. With Rage, your crit jumps to 91, and just about every hit is a double (x2) hit, so you end up hitting harder than when using the STR weapons.

[JaytB]

The problem with the bow set on a bear is you cannot effectively use your skills. Yes you can use beckon and stomp, but bears cause the most damage when using the melee skills, and they cannot be used with a bow.

I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Melee skills (slashes) also work with a bow.

[FluffNStuff]

I'm sorry, but that's not correct. Melee skills (slashes) also work with a bow.

I really hope he means he prefers to not get that close when equipping a bow.

(I hope).

[Energizeric]

I know they work, but just not well. You can't use them when you are at a distance (which is where you are when you are using a bow), and if you are up close, then there is no advantage to having the bow.

I have all 5 non-crafted weapon sets, 1H scimitar/bongo, 2h scimitar, spear, shanks and bow. The STR gear is Humanian & Humanity (depending on which weapon) and the DEX gear is Tiki. I've compared all of these, and without a doubt (it's not even close), I can cause by far the most damage with the shanks whether I am farming low level mobs or boss, or whether I am fighting Tiki God or the Humania mobs. The only reason I usually don't use the shanks is because the armor and dodge is too low and I get killed a lot.

[JaytB]

I know they work, but just not well. You can't use them when you are at a distance (which is where you are when you are using a bow), and if you are up close, then there is no advantage to having the bow.

I have all 5 non-crafted weapon sets, 1H scimitar/bongo, 2h scimitar, spear, shanks and bow. The STR gear is Humanian and the DEX gear is Tiki. I've compared all of these, and without a doubt (it's not even close), I can cause by far the most damage with the shanks whether I am farming low level mobs or boss, or whether I am fighting Tiki God or the Humania mobs. The only reason I usually don't use the shanks is because the armor and dodge is too low and I get killed a lot.

Whether or not range is useful, in the end it's all about dmg and skill dmg when you're talking about an attack bear. As shown in the calculations above, bow set is superior to 2H sword set. Range is just a simple extra, and allows you to grab agro from stray enemies (13m range).

I wonder how the shanks match up vs a bow set though. Maybe you could do the same calculation as I did a couple of posts back. I'd be really curious to see the results. I have tried all (crafted and uncrafted) sets on my bear, except for the shanks set, and bow set did not only seem the most destructive, the numbers confirmed it.

If you want, you can post screenshots of stats (crit) and skill dmg for stomp (without rings or vanities), then I'll calculate it myself. I somehow doubt the numbers are going to be better for shanks as compared to the bow set, but I hope I'm proven wrong so I could finally find a reason to get me some crafted shanks :D

[Brave Sir Robin]

Great effort. :positive:

One thing that I would like to point out is that at levels 60 - 65 there is actually decent equipment that allows you to to put some more points to STR. E.g.


L.60: Glyph Big Top, +3% hit / piece. This set gives no set bonus, but offers high dodge (an amazing +6% / piece) which makes it pretty decent.
L.61, 63, 65: Uncrafted Orlok set, again +3% hit / piece and this time you get a set bonus as well.
L.65: Angelic set :angel:, which is amazing actually, +3% hit / piece.


I use those sets on my second bear, which is more STR oriented. At L.65 you can go 220 str / 109 dex and 95% hit without Mecha head (it would give a further +2% hit).

L.65 Uncrafted Orlok was extensively tested with huge mob pulls in Fang (solo-ing 1st Floor - no elixirs used). You can tank comfortably with it. At 61 PVP Orlok is very good too, but not sure about the optimal build.

Of course, you can't really play full str atm. Some say that the reason behind this is that bears would be OP if there wasn't a hit% penalty for pure STR (however, this is just an assumption).

IMO, not being able to go full str makes things a bit trickier, which adds to the fun factor of the game. You have to experiment with gear /attribute distribution to find the combination of str / hit% that suits you. Then, knowing that you have reduced hit%, you might want to adjust your style, e.g. you want to make sure that you enter the room a lot earlier than the rest of the team to make sure you get all aggro in case taunt doesn't hit properly. In which case, you need enough time to aggro some mobs 'manually' lol. Also, when that bird constantly steals aggro :disturbed:, maybe it's time to draw your dagger? :devilish:

All that jazz :listening_headphone makes the bear class more challenging to master and more fun to play (at least, this is how I see it. or choose to see it lol :cool:).

[CrimsonTider]

I know they work, but just not well. You can't use them when you are at a distance (which is where you are when you are using a bow), and if you are up close, then there is no advantage to having the bow.

I have all 5 non-crafted weapon sets, 1H scimitar/bongo, 2h scimitar, spear, shanks and bow. The STR gear is Humanian & Humanity (depending on which weapon) and the DEX gear is Tiki. I've compared all of these, and without a doubt (it's not even close), I can cause by far the most damage wi
th the shanks whether I am farming low level mobs or boss, or whether I am fighting Tiki God or the Humania mobs. The only
reason I usually don't use the shanks is because the armor and dodge is too low and I get killed a lot.

And now we are getting to where I wanted to go: bears becoming less like bears and more like "bird-wannabes". You mention not being able to use your skills when equipping a bow, this should only occur if you're NOT tanking. I maybe wrong but if the Humania bows are like all other xbows in PL, they have a range of 12-13m. Bears have one attack (beckon) which reach this distace. This leads to why we see more and more bears auto-attacking vs. "getting bloodied up."

Bears are misinformed on the facts of dps and even less informed on what their role is. I am not calling you out, this is a general observation. To many, bows = distance.

@Jay - Thank you for picking up the dirty work. :p I have a question: Isn't crit a percentage or "luck" stat like dodge? I mention this because I have cleared maps before with one or two crits. Then turned around and crit evrything on the next map. I understand where you are coming from but, unlike you and I and other more respected bears, it is another "stat" bears look at when deciding gear. If the majority of bow bears auto mobs and bosses (which most do), then the extra crit for skill damage is null. Make sense?

No matter the discussion, it does prove that once again either strength gear needs a revamp or attribute points do. As said before, only bears use other sets to maximize their skills. If a mage or bird equip sets outside of their class, their skill damage suffers greatly.

[JaytB]

@Jay - Thank you for picking up the dirty work. :p I have a question: Isn't crit a percentage or "luck" stat like dodge? I mention this because I have cleared maps before with one or two crits. Then turned around and crit evrything on the next map. I understand where you are coming from but, unlike you and I and other more respected bears, it is another "stat" bears look at when deciding gear. If the majority of bow bears auto mobs and bosses (which most do), then the extra crit for skill damage is null. Make sense?

I understand what you're saying, although I wasnt talking about a bear that just auto's mobs and bosses. It wouldn't matter what gear they would use, or what stat would be important, if they just hang back and don't use their skills. I do see a reason for that though, bow set is simply much harder to keep alive. It's ideal with trashers or a simple tank pot, if you want to maximize (potential) dmg, but it's far from ideal to do what a bear is meant to do best AKA crowd control.

And yes, I agree with you that crit is lucked based. It's just like dodge for a bear... Higher dodge means higher survivability, but that doesn't mean you could have an unlucky run and don't dodge much. Does that make dodge less important as a survivability factor? It's the same with crit, it simply means more total dmg in the long run. Even if it's luck based, higher crit means higher dmg output. I'm talking about the total dmg you'll have dealt after many runs and, again, for bears that know how to maximize this dmg output.

Don't get me wrong though, personally I wouldn't go on a bear if I wanted to deal dmg. I'd rather run with a 1H sword/shield set any time of the day. But since we were discussing pure dmg, I tried to point out that the bow set offers more (potential) dmg as compared to the 2H sword set.

[CrimsonTider]

You know I understand where you are coming from. ;) I am glad you brought it up because your point adds validity to the thread. While we are focusing on damage, should we also discuss the use, or uselessness, of taunt? Because of the "elixir-gen", a bear keeping agro is near impossible. I have to have a thrasher with a dex set and still have a hard time maintaining aggro. The added dodge is a plus, but since Nuri's, that is all taunt is: a dodge booster.

[Energizeric]

Whether or not range is useful, in the end it's all about dmg and skill dmg when you're talking about an attack bear. As shown in the calculations above, bow set is superior to 2H sword set. Range is just a simple extra, and allows you to grab agro from stray enemies (13m range).

I wonder how the shanks match up vs a bow set though. Maybe you could do the same calculation as I did a couple of posts back. I'd be really curious to see the results. I have tried all (crafted and uncrafted) sets on my bear, except for the shanks set, and bow set did not only seem the most destructive, the numbers confirmed it.

If you want, you can post screenshots of stats (crit) and skill dmg for stomp (without rings or vanities), then I'll calculate it myself. I somehow doubt the numbers are going to be better for shanks as compared to the bow set, but I hope I'm proven wrong so I could finally find a reason to get me some crafted shanks :D

Unfortunately I don't yet have the crafted shanks, but I intend to get it at some point, so I will do this when I do. Keep in mind a couple of things....

I'm not sure about crafted, but with the non-crafted Tiki Set, the bow and shanks give the same exact stats except for damage and dps. Crit is 51 for both sets.

The other thing which is hard to quantify is speed. You are calculating 100 stomps as if that is the true measure of damage caused by a bear.

If we take a boss fight as an example, a bear is going to run through all of his skills in a hurry, and then there is a couple of moments when you are just on auto-attack waiting for your attack skills to "cool-down" so you can use them again. For me I usually start with beckon, stomp, then crushing blow, and then the slashes. When I am done with the slashes, I cannot yet use beckon/stomp again and have to wait a few moments. During that waiting time I am on auto-attack, and it is during that time when DPS does matter when considering which set causes the most damage. During this cool-down period, the shanks can hit 3 times for every 2 times the bow can hit.

I suggest you just buy a cheap lvl70 tiki helm, armor & shanks set (cost of less than 200k) and try it out. Go fight in Nuri or the Sewers against a boss that will not kill you with the low armor this set provides. Just keep auto-attack on and spam your skills. You will see the boss will die in a hurry compared to when you use other weapons. I'll also add that the shanks set is the only set I've ever used that makes me capable of soloing the Bandit Queen. With any other weapon set, she heals herself faster than I can cause damage and the net result is a stalemate.

[Energizeric]

If the majority of bow bears auto mobs and bosses (which most do), then the extra crit for skill damage is null. Make sense?

Actually, Crit does indeed affect auto-attack as well. When I use shanks set, Crit is 51. When I further use Rage, Crit jumps up to 91, which means 9 out of 10 attacks will be critical hits. If at that point I just put my bear on auto-attack and don't use a single skill, the hits are for 500-600 each, meaning that Crit clearly does affect auto-attack as well as skill damage. I didn't actually know this until I started using this set.

This is another reason why shanks set causes high damage. Even on auto-attack you are getting 3 hits every 2 seconds, and when buffed these hits average 500-600 damage each. Add in some slashes here and there, and you can take down the average 10-12k health boss in about 10 seconds.

I now use this set whenever I am farming any lower levels where having high armor is not a big concern. It simply makes running through each dungeon much faster.

[JaytB]

Unfortunately I don't yet have the crafted shanks, but I intend to get it at some point, so I will do this when I do. Keep in mind a couple of things....

I'm not sure about crafted, but with the non-crafted Tiki Set, the bow and shanks give the same exact stats except for damage and dps. Crit is 51 for both sets.

The other thing which is hard to quantify is speed. You are calculating 100 stomps as if that is the true measure of damage caused by a bear.

If we take a boss fight as an example, a bear is going to run through all of his skills in a hurry, and then there is a couple of moments when you are just on auto-attack waiting for your attack skills to "cool-down" so you can use them again. For me I usually start with beckon, stomp, then crushing blow, and then the slashes. When I am done with the slashes, I cannot yet use beckon/stomp again and have to wait a few moments. During that waiting time I am on auto-attack, and it is during that time when DPS does matter when considering which set causes the most damage. During this cool-down period, the shanks can hit 3 times for every 2 times the bow can hit.

I suggest you just buy a cheap lvl70 tiki helm, armor & shanks set (cost of less than 200k) and try it out. Go fight in Nuri or the Sewers against a boss that will not kill you with the low armor this set provides. Just keep auto-attack on and spam your skills. You will see the boss will die in a hurry compared to when you use other weapons. I'll also add that the shanks set is the only set I've ever used that makes me capable of soloing the Bandit Queen. With any other weapon set, she heals herself faster than I can cause damage and the net result is a stalemate.

Sewers and humanity will be far apart in therms of enemy armor, so the results would be skewed IMO. Higher enemy armor would mean less 'real' dps or 'real' dmg caused when your base dmg is low, as is the case with shanks. So, although you might hit an enemy more times, your total dmg caused could very well be lower. Or in other words, dps doesn't mean a thing.

Better would be to attack one of those mini bosses in devil's coast IMO. Auto-attack with shanks as compared to bow. Although, even then, results could be skewed because end bosses would most likely even have more armor to begin with.

The reason I'm doubting that shanks will mean faster boss kills, is that I tested that in the past with bow vs dagger sets, because many people told me how much faster a dagger would kill a boss. I can't say I tested it super extensively, but I did my fair share of runs, and the bow always came out on top in timed runs vs tough bosses.

But yeah, I might do these tests again with shanks, and record it on video. But somehow I got the feeling it's dagger vs bow all over again.

[Nick41324]

Off topic..
What tablet is that?

[Otukura]

I'll also add that the shanks set is the only set I've ever used that makes me capable of soloing the Bandit Queen. With any other weapon set, she heals herself faster than I can cause damage and the net result is a stalemate.

It's perfectly possible on my 56 bear with SK recurve.

[Nihiliste]

Oh please^.

[JaytB]

You know I understand where you are coming from. ;) I am glad you brought it up because your point adds validity to the thread. While we are focusing on damage, should we also discuss the use, or uselessness, of taunt? Because of the "elixir-gen", a bear keeping agro is near impossible. I have to have a thrasher with a dex set and still have a hard time maintaining aggro. The added dodge is a plus, but since Nuri's, that is all taunt is: a dodge booster.

Actually, I think you have a very good point here.

Taunt should allow a bear to get and keep agro. And, as you said, that just isn't possible in a group full of trashers. Even in a non trashered group, it's hard to hold agro when more dmg oriented classes/builds start unloading their skills a bit too soon. I definitely feel sometimes like my taunt doesn't do much when I keep spamming it and my team starts to die around me.

So yeah, allowing taunt to actually grab and hold agro should be something independend of you teams' dmg IMO.

[CrimsonTider]

Actually, Crit does indeed affect auto-attack as well. When I use shanks set, Crit is 51. When I further use Rage, Crit jumps up to 91, which means 9 out of 10 attacks will be critical hits. If at that point I just put my bear on auto-attack and don't use a single skill, the hits are for 500-600 each, meaning that Crit clearly does affect auto-attack as well as skill damage. I didn't actually know this until I started using this set.

This is another reason why shanks set causes high damage. Even on auto-attack you are getting 3 hits every 2 seconds, and when buffed these hits average 500-600 damage each. Add in some slashes here and there, and you can take down the average 10-12k health boss in about 10 seconds.

I now use this set whenever I am farming any lower levels where having high armor is not a big concern. It simply makes running through each dungeon much faster.

You missed the point of my post. Daggers/Shanks are onr thing, but using a bow as a bear to just autoattack is meaningless. At 5m, slashes and cb are meaningless. At 11m, stomp and hs are meaning less. At max bow range, even beckon cannot hit. So crit and hit for a bow bear who maintains distance is useless.


Off topic..
What tablet is that?

If you are referring to my pics, I use a Samsung Nexus phone to play on.


Actually, I think you have a very good point here.

Taunt should allow a bear to get and keep agro. And, as you said, that just isn't possible in a group full of trashers. Even in a non trashered group, it's hard to hold agro when more dmg oriented classes/builds start unloading their skills a bit too soon. I definitely feel sometimes like my taunt doesn't do much when I keep spamming it and my team starts to die around me.

So yeah, allowing taunt to actually grab and hold agro should be something independend of you teams' dmg IMO.

Nothing gets under my skin like being yelled at for not maintaining aggro when all I do is spam taunt. :(

[JaytB]

@Energizeric

Just curious... How long does it take you to kill the bandit queen with shanks, from the moment of your first attack, until she goes down? I know I've asked you almosy the same thing when you issued that 'sewer challenge' in another thread, but you never responded. I just recorded a random run with crafted bow bear, and although armor is probably a lot lower than Humania bosses, I'd like to hear how shanks stack up to it.

Since you've been testing shanks on queen, maybe you could save me the trouble of having to buy a shank set, by posting your time it took to kill the queen with them :)

[Energizeric]

Regarding dagger vs. shanks, the shanks hit quite a bit harder and are 50% slower, so they are much closer to a regular str weapon than a dagger even though dps is similar.

[Otukura]

Oh please^.

Even you could :3

[Ellyidol]

I didn't have the time to read through the entire thread, but I did skim through the replies and the OP.

First, thanks for reaching out Crim, been awhile.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned or pointed out, but I remember back when I was a strong advocate for bears/strength/strength sets, it ultimately showed that future changes have to made to the bear class alone, not the strength sets. Due to the hybrid-ness of the PL classes, buffing up the strength sets (even if it's just Hit %) would buff the other two classes at well, even if bears are "supposed" to use these strength sets.

In the end, all I can chime in is that the benefits of stats for bears should be improved (if it still hasn't been, I would have no idea since I'm no longer playing). Otherwise, a full strength bear would never be a more viable build versus a dual-spec.

Apologies if I've missed the point completely or repeated anything. Glad to see there are still people passionate about the class though :)

[CrimsonTider]

Good to hear from you buddy!

It has been briefly mentioned here (and more extensively by Tankkaar in another thread), of possibly changing how attribute points effect stats.

Something I just thought of, why can we not make changes to the stat requirements to equip gear? What I mean is currently, we see many strength set users applying the minimal strength points to equip the gear and using the remainder for dex (to raise hit and damage.) By raising the minimal equipping requirements, it will maximize set value for the intended class and allow for this raise in hit%. Yes, pallies and warbirds would be less seen because with a higher strength requirement, dex will not aid them in increasing damge as it does now. I am not saying strength should be increased where it is only effective for bears (like class specificity in SL), but we could see a more balancing of classes to make bears more relavent.

Thoughts?

[Energizeric]

@Energizeric

Just curious... How long does it take you to kill the bandit queen with shanks, from the moment of your first attack, until she goes down? I know I've asked you almosy the same thing when you issued that 'sewer challenge' in another thread, but you never responded. I just recorded a random run with crafted bow bear, and although armor is probably a lot lower than Humania bosses, I'd like to hear how shanks stack up to it.

Since you've been testing shanks on queen, maybe you could save me the trouble of having to buy a shank set, by posting your time it took to kill the queen with them :)

The shanks set I use is lvl66 Tiki Set, but there's not too much of a difference between that and lvl70 (I think about 10 damage points difference). I'll time myself tonight and post the results.

[FluffNStuff]

Good to hear from you buddy!

It has been briefly mentioned here (and more extensively by Tankkaar in another thread), of possibly changing how attribute points effect stats.

Something I just thought of, why can we not make changes to the stat requirements to equip gear? What I mean is currently, we see many strength set users applying the minimal strength points to equip the gear and using the remainder for dex (to raise hit and damage.) By raising the minimal equipping requirements, it will maximize set value for the intended class and allow for this raise in hit%. Yes, pallies and warbirds would be less seen because with a higher strength requirement, dex will not aid them in increasing damge as it does now. I am not saying strength should be increased where it is only effective for bears (like class specificity in SL), but we could see a more balancing of classes to make bears more relavent.

Thoughts?

Considering the bear is the only class ~forced~ to use stats other then their own to be even viable, I think this would hurt them the most. You could raise the requirements to 100% and Int Mages and Dex birds would not be affected at all.

I wonder if we are going in the wrong direction with this. Is the problem that bears have too little hit, or is it that they have too little armor / dodge. A tank really should be a tank. I can totally understand a pure bear having half the hit of the other classes if it's armor was twice as strong and it had a much higher dodge percentage. And what solution is there? You can't put the armor on the gear because of paladins. You can't put the armor on base stats because of twinks. I really think the only thing they could do here is to make Iron Armor scale massively to strength, and that would cause a serious return to a true tank bear.

[JaytB]

The shanks set I use is lvl66 Tiki Set, but there's not too much of a difference between that and lvl70 (I think about 10 damage points difference). I'll time myself tonight and post the results.

I decided to test it myself and crafted the shanks.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/70bd02e2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/18da6d81.jpg

On average it took me around 20 seconds more to kill bandit queen with shanks as compared to Bow. And this is in a lv55 dungeon. Boss kills in higher lvl dungeons would even make more difference considering they probably have way more armor.

So yeah, shanks definitely deal a considerate amount LESS real dmg to tough bosses as compared to bow.

As I already said earlier, it's dagger vs bow all over again.

[Energizeric]

I decided to test it myself and crafted the shanks.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/70bd02e2.jpg

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/18da6d81.jpg

On average it took me around 20 seconds more to kill bandit queen with shanks as compared to Bow. And this is in a lv55 dungeon. Boss kills in higher lvl dungeons would even make more difference considering they probably have way more armor.

So yeah, shanks definitely deal a considerate amount LESS real dmg to tough bosses as compared to bow.

As I already said earlier, it's dagger vs bow all over again.

I'm thinking that perhaps I am not using the bow correctly. I have the lvl66 Tiki Set with both the bow and the shanks. Compared to your crafted set, the Tiki set appears to have slightly more crit & damage, and considerably less armor. Yet I am not even able to kill Bandit Queen with the bow as she heals herself faster than I can inflict damage.

When you use the bow, how exactly do you do it? I stand a bit back, keep auto attack on, and whenever she comes towards me I stomp her back into the wall. With the Shanks I also keep it on auto, but instead spam the slash skills and stomp. Should I be fighting with the bow in the same exact manner as I do with the shanks? Should I instead be fighting with the bow the same as I do with a melee weapon?

I'm a bit confused.

[JaytB]

I'm thinking that perhaps I am not using the bow correctly. I have the lvl66 Tiki Set with both the bow and the shanks. Compared to your crafted set, the Tiki set appears to have slightly more crit & damage, and considerably less armor. Yet I am not even able to kill Bandit Queen with the bow as she heals herself faster than I can inflict damage.

When you use the bow, how exactly do you do it? I stand a bit back, keep auto attack on, and whenever she comes towards me I stomp her back into the wall. With the Shanks I also keep it on auto, but instead spam the slash skills and stomp. Should I be fighting with the bow in the same exact manner as I do with the shanks? Should I instead be fighting with the bow the same as I do with a melee weapon?

I'm a bit confused.

Yes, you should fight exactly in the same way as with shanks. Basically, stand on top of her to make sure your slashes land, beckon-stomp and auto-attack all the way until she goes down. I basically use all my skills when fighting her.

I recorded a random run for both shanks and bow on video. I'll upload it to YouTube and PM you the link in a bit. Note that those where definitely not the best runs, but you'll get the picture :)

Edit: I haven't really watched the video's myself in detail yet, they're uploading as I'm typing this. But what I think we'll see, is that skill dmg takes off a large chunk of her health as compared to auto-attack dmg. And skill dmg of a bow is considerably higher as compared to shanks. That was what I noticed with similar bow/dagger tests in the past.

Edit2: links to videos sent ;)

[CrimsonTider]

I'm thinking that perhaps I am not using the bow correctly. I have the lvl66 Tiki Set with both the bow and the shanks. Compared to your crafted set, the Tiki set appears to have slightly more crit & damage, and considerably less armor. Yet I am not even able to kill Bandit Queen with the bow as she heals herself faster than I can inflict damage.

When you use the bow, how exactly do you do it? I stand a bit back, keep auto attack on, and whenever she comes towards me I stomp her back into the wall. With the Shanks I also keep it on auto, but instead spam the slash skills and stomp. Should I be fighting with the bow in the same exact manner as I do with the shanks? Should I instead be fighting with the bow the same as I do with a melee weapon?

I'm a bit confused.

That was precisely my point a few posts ago about the bow-bear argument. A bow bear who JUST auto-attacks is worthless. Whether using str/dex/int, using slashes and SMASH (beckon+stomp), as well as debuffs, are essential. Otherwise bears are useless.

[Energizeric]

I see now in the videos, yes I guess the bow is more powerful. I still think the shanks are more useful to a bear though for the reason Crim says.

As you can see in your other thread, the shanks give a defensive set bonus which makes them have higher armor and dodge, so if you are going to fight close up with the bad guys, better off having a set that has better armor and dodge. And obviously the difference in damage between the two is pretty small. The main advantage of the bow is to be able to attack from a distance which as Crim says, is not that useful to a bear as it renders much of the melee skill useless.

I do find it funny in the bow video how when you use the slash skills, the bear actually puts the bow in his left hand while he simply punches the Bandit Queen with his right hand. LOL

[CrimsonTider]

I see now in the videos, yes I guess the bow is more powerful. I still think the shanks are more useful to a bear though for the reason Crim says.

As you can see in your other thread, the shanks give a defensive set bonus which makes them have higher armor and dodge, so if you are going to fight close up with the bad guys, better off having a set that has better armor and dodge. And obviously the difference in damage between the two is pretty small. The main advantage of the bow is to be able to attack from a distance which as Crim says, is not that useful to a bear as it renders much of the melee skill useless.

I do find it funny in the bow video how when you use the slash skills, the bear actually puts the bow in his left hand while he simply punches the Bandit Queen with his right hand. LOL

Actually, based on the statistical analysis, I would rather tank with a bow. I may have less armor, but that is ok when I am killing faster. Plus, that is why we have health pots and mages for healing.

However, let's not lose focus. The shanks may have more armor than bow, and more dps than a 1h scimitar, but the scimitar has superior skill damage and more armor than shanks.

@Fluff - I still hold my stance that if I can't land my skills nor have enough damage to maintain aggro, then increased dodge/armor/health is pointless. I would gladly take more hit% and less dodge. Yes, the first thought is overpowered pallies and warbirds but peolple forget how added strength for classes other than bears decrease their skill damage and effieciency. Raising the requirements for ALL gear (say 225 instead of 160 str/dex/int), would still allow for hybrid builds, yet make pure builds mire effective.

[Ellyidol]

Fluff raises a good point, balance is so much more difficult in this game because of how entangled everything is - hybrid specs and twinks most especially.

I don't know if it's in place yet, but a possible way to segregate twinking from end-game balance is a required character level for a certain skill level, so you don't get level 10s maxing out one particular buff. Then you can scale the game better.

Are buffs even in percentages yet? I remember that I pointed out before that buffs should be made into percentage increases rather than fixed values to also separate twinks from end-game, no idea how that worked out.

Good luck though!

[CrimsonTider]

Fluff raises a good point, balance is so much more difficult in this game because of how entangled everything is - hybrid specs and twinks most especially.

I don't know if it's in place yet, but a possible way to segregate twinking from end-game balance is a required character level for a certain skill level, so you don't get level 10s maxing out one particular buff. Then you can scale the game better.

Are buffs even in percentages yet? I remember that I pointed out before that buffs should be made into percentage increases rather than fixed values to also separate twinks from end-game, no idea how that worked out.

Good luck though!

So you don't think raising gear equipping requirements would help stop the hybrids? I look at Copperhead sets as an example: pure strength bears can get around 99% hit and the sets are very well balanced. I don't know that I have ever seen a Copper pally and few warbirds.

Skills were raised to 7. Only 66 and above can respec to 7 so twinking is still the same. Bears are able to max out all skills except for the slashes and will have them all maxed at the next update except for one. And no, percentages were not added to them. Skills are still based on your attributes.

[WhoIsThis]

It seems that there is a pretty easy "fix" if you will for the complaints of PvP and PvE - just transfer most of the dodge % in the Tiki strength set into hit %. Strictly from a specing standpoint, pure strength should be a viable build and should have 100% hit with a pure strength bear. Doing so would end the dodge complaints in PvP and let bears hold aggro more effectively in PvE.

I'd have to support Ellyidol's calls for raising the minimum requirements - perhaps to as high as 50% - so at level 70 if you were to have 50% of your stats in dex and 50% in str, you could equip it; otherwise if you had say, 40%/60% it wouldn't work. Percentages too have not been implemented - they probably should be but it never really happened.

Finally balance should be around end-game first then twinks. End game should always be a destination, although most of the changes produced here shouldn't lead to one class being more OP than they already are.

[Zneak]

Wow thanks for the help!

[ArtofWar]

Nice necro!! :D

[iRusher]

Lol on my iPod the title looked like it said comprehensive anal

[Reunegade]

To the request of Bramer ;)

[bramer]

To the request of Bramer ;)

I'll thank you when my thanks returns ;)

This is bramer - signing out

[CrimsonTider]

Keeping thread on topic, looks as if we are getting closer:

33156

33157

Not completely pure strength, but 94% is getting close to our goal. Still would like to see some dodge taken out and replaced in health regen, armor, or even added hit. I understand this build would decrease the amount of other strength builds, but would make pure strength a viable option.

We have made mention of STS implementing PvE sets and PvP sets to give more balance. We have seen, in the past, the use of offensive and defensive sets to provide some variety. In keeping with these ideas, why not introduce two sets which act as follows:

Option 1: A set which requires all, or most, attribute points for that specific class for those who strive to be "pure."

Option 2: Sets which exist much like they do now and require a minimal amount of attribute points. This option would allow for those who enjoy their "hybrid" builds.

As a bear enthusiast, this could possibly lead me to cap 2 bears to enjoy multiple options. I am sure others would do the same and this would add even more variety to PvP.