Hybrids : Possible Solution

[caelitus]

Many people bring problems to the table, and very few bring a solution - one thing that may help resolve this would be to have bonuses per a set number of attribute. Which would substantially increase uniqueness and customization of character.

I.E. when a character reaches 50 attribute points in str, dex, or int or whatever the number may be... maybe even small bonuses spread over shorter attribute spans. (every 25), they gain a passive bonus.

STR
50 - Bonus "Brutality" 10% damage
100 - Bonus "Toughness" 10% armor
150 - Bonus "Obliterate" 10% damage 10% crit

INT
50 - Bonus "Guardian" Passive Aura +5% armor for group.
100 - Bonus "Avenger" Passive Aura +5% damage for group.
150 - Bonus "Devastator" Spells have chance to do 80-90 extra damage.

Dex
50 - Bonus "Escape artist" 10% dodge
100 - Bonus "Dead-eye" 15% crit
150 - Bonus "Assassin" 15% damage, range increased 5%

Thoughts?

[Raxie]

what?
but hybrids are overpowering the pures. maybe this could work when the pures get a lot stronger but making the pures stronger is what balances the game. if we also made hbrids stronger... well what is the point?

[caelitus]

This is in response to the 1.4 updates. Go to the forums there and take a look heres what i posted in there.

Hybrids have been OP especially on the bowbear side, now the balance has shifted WAY left to pure stat characters. I think it is a bit more beneficial for the creators to really fix these kinks. Not only for game play but because of the appeal the hybrid class ( I have 3 mages, int, dex, and str). However with these updates hybrids will be a hindrance in games and I wouldn't be surprised to see peeps booting hybrids now because they will slow down map clearing because of their reduced damage. Its extremely hard to cater to everyone's taste, but this update may shift the balance to an extreme.

- one thing that may help resolve this would be to have bonuses per a set number of attribute. Which would substantially increase uniqueness and customization of character.

[caelitus]

I.E.
A damage warrior would go pure STR to achieve the best bonuses for damage
A tank would go hybrid STR/DEX to achieve armor, dodge

A pally would go STR/Dex for survivability bonuses
A damage mage would go pure INT for maximum damage capability.

Pure stat players would be able to achieve the highest tier bonus, while hybrids would spread their stats
to receive multiple smaller bonus's catering to their style of play and desired customization.

[Raxie]

dude, have you even seen the skill conversion update? do you even know if pures are going to overpower at all? pures have always been the disadvantage race. this skill conversion update might do nothing. we have to see and try the update before assuming that pures are going own hybrids. if pures really are op in the update, then we shall see. also, pures should get a chance to be overpowered. they have spent a long time being the less favoured race. i think we should give them some fun of overpowering the hybrids.

[caelitus]

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?6466-Upcoming-System-Change-Stat-Driven-Skills!

Stat driven skills - need I say more?

What does this mean for a pally - what does a pally max for skills ? STR/DEX (hate to have to explain - just read the update for more info)

That means I will have 142Str/81 Dex/7 Int -
so... --->stat driven skills<---... that means 7 Int will be used to determine my skill power... out of 230 possible stat attributes.

How hard do you think my spells will hit as a pally? Will hit as hard as a level 1? Perhaps.

What im trying to say is not only would it make the game more interesting but it would make both pures, and hybrids more customizable and even the playing field instead of constantly being on the teeter totter of power which seems to always shift to one side (pure or hybrid) with each update.

I play both pure and hybrid.

And as for always the disadvantage race, have you played against a pure bird in PvP or seen their damage output on maps? The only real OP hybrid is bowbear.
Which again bowbears are pure dex - but since their skills will now rely on STR - what happens?

Even the Devs said its going to be tough to play as hybrids with the upcoming update just for the fact that skills are now stat based.

[Raxie]

you don't know anything about pvp... use any race you like and i'll play you with my pally.
there are also 220 possible stat attributes and for goodness sake, how many times do i have to tell people? obviously a paladin to hit harder than a level 1. IT'S NOT THE HYBRIDS THAT ARE GETTING WEAKER; IT'S THE PURES THAT ARE GETTING STRONGER. THE HYBRIDS STAY THE SAME... IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.
honestly though, play me in pvp. i can easily beat lone when he uses pure dex archer and he is supposedly the best archer there is.

[caelitus]

This is straight from Cinco

Examples:

"I'm using the Archer for example here... but same goes for all classes...

Currently, the Archer's "Blast Shot" ability at Rank 1 does between 8 and 12 points of damage. It does this range of damage to all monsters that it hits without regard for how many points of Dexterity the Archer has accumulated.
The change will make it such that the Archer's Dexterity will significantly increase the amount of damage that Rank 1 "Blast Shot" can do. In the new system, if the Archer puts all of his stat points into Dexterity by the time he is Level 50 this same Rank 1 of "Blast Shot" will do between 25 and 37 points of damage per hit."

R-E-A-D carefully. Understand what it is saying and apply it to your knowledge of the game.

How do hybrids stay the same (since I have to literally spell this out)

Now think really really hard - if I am a pally - that means none of my stats go into INT - which means... in relation to the "blast shot" example
a PURE INT mage skill (such as firestorm) will do 3x MORE damage in comparison to a Pally which has no INT.

[bmc85uk]

I really think you should wait for the stat driven skill change to hit before you start making suggestions to balance things out in other ways.

I resent your comment that everyone brings a problem and nobody brings a solution. I've spent the past few months posting nothing but solutions while teenie boppers ignore the bigger picture and chat about pets etc.

If you throw another thing like your attribute system in to the mix, it's just another thing you'll have to balance out, don't forget stat driven skills is a work in progress, it won't be right the first time.

What GoXu said is right, hybrids only get weaker by comparison they don't actually get any weaker. I also get the impression that, for example, if by level 50 a pure dex archer does just over than 3 times as much damage with a level 1 blast shot, this doesn't necessarily translate directly to level 5, having the damage tripled once again, otherwise damage increases exponentially the further you go in game. I would imagine that the bonus of +16-25 damage would increase slightly rather than staying relative to base damage.

But as I said, nobody really knows just yet, so let's wait and see, and when it does happen, if it isn't right, instead of proposing balance in other areas, let's try to help them balance out skills as much as possible first.

[caelitus]

It must be the Dev team that doesn't know what their talking about. Because this is straight from them. What they are saying is that there is going to be a large gap between pure, and hybrid. And by comparison, yes you are right, hybrids arent getting weaker - just everyone else who goes pure just gets significantly stronger. Isn't your argument just saying the same thing I am in a different way then? While hybrids stay as strong ("not actually getting weaker") as they were in 1.3, pures are moving on to 1.4 strength.

"Trade-Offs:

The trade-off for this is: if the Archer puts all points into Strength or into Intelligence, the effect of his class-specific skills will be significantly reduced in comparison to an Archer who has focused on keeping his Dexterity statistic very high.

Same goes for the other classes. Warrior "Slash" abilities, "Stomp" and others are influenced by the amount of Strength the Warrior possesses. Enchantress damage-dealing spells work the same way and so does "Heal." More Int means better "Heal" performance for the Enchantress. (Oh... the Warrior's "Restore" is based largely on Strength, the Archer's "Restore" based on Dexterity, but both of them get a bonus to the amount of healing from their Intelligence statistic.)"

This is a suggestion board - that is it - and if your arguing because your offended by my wording - well that is my fault - I was thinking one thing and typed another and it is edited.

As for "this doesn't necessarily translate directly to level 5, having the damage tripled once again, otherwise damage increases exponentially the further you go in game. I would imagine that the bonus of +16-25 damage would increase slightly rather than staying relative to base damage."
Its not exponential, as exponential would be to the nth power. I'm just looking at the example they gave and deriving a multiple.

Currently the Archer's "Blast Shot" ability at Rank 1 does between 8 and 12 points of damage.

In the future if the Archer puts all of his stat points into Dexterity by the time he is Level 50 this same Rank 1 of "Blast Shot" will do between 25 and 37 points of damage per hit.

this is a triple damage increase so rank 5 (60 damage in the current game), would be in the 300 damage range. which is probably because the monsters are going to be a lot tougher in the new campaigns.

[bmc85uk]

Ok well, first off, I didn't take offense to your comment, I just resent it as I don't consider it to be true (at least not to me) though thinking about it, I do agree it applies to the majority of the community who are far too happy to take extra content and have balance issues ignored.

You're right, it won't increase exponentially, that isn't want I wanted to imply, and used the wrong word, my apologies.

What I meant to say was that it won't necessarily be a fixed multiplier to skill damage (at least I'm hoping it won't), otherwise, any base skill damage would be potentially increased three-fold, as you said, making an absolutely massive gap between skill output from a pure and hybrid build.

Spacetime don't seem to do things by half measures, be it drop rates or perceived PvE combat difficulty, it seems to swing from one extreme for the other, which, like you, is the impression I get from stat driven skills so far.

However it is a work in progress and will get some adjustments post 1.4.

I do think however, that glossing over the issue with yet more attribute mods will overcomplicate things, having another set of variables that would need to be adjusted to work along side the stat-driven skill update.

[caelitus]

No worries - just putting up suggestions because I like the game - whether they take em or leave em.

Now if we could just get the Devs to put out information they already have...

What is the damage range of a rank 5 Blast shot on a full dex level 50 Archer?

That would be extremely helpful not only for us, but for you guys since we can sit here and speculate some more ;)

[bmc85uk]

I'm literally itching to test out the new stat balance, but I think before they start to seriously consider how they want to balance it for PvP, they should introduce a health/mana system update. Details are in the overhaul thread in my sig if you were curious.

[caelitus]

I'm literally itching to test out the new stat balance, but I think before they start to seriously consider how they want to balance it for PvP, they should introduce a health/mana system update. Details are in the overhaul thread in my sig if you were curious.

yeah i read that when i first looked at your profile - good stuff, we'll see what happens... I can't even imagine a way they could balance it out with the new stat-based system since it caters absolutely to pure stat characters. They are going to be doing a major juggling act with this one I believe as they could have possibly cut off a major part of playability and customization with hybrid characters. Whereas there were 9 possible desirable character customizations, now there will be only 3 that will hold absolute dominion over output damage.

[bmc85uk]

I disagree to some degree, while there were 9 potential classes, some of them were totally pointless, such as a pure enchantress; being weaker in almost every way. You say pures will have dominion over damage output, but that can be tweaked, a str warrior could instead receive much better enhancements to his defensive skills, but that's for another discussion when the time comes.

On another note, a dex archer and an int enchantress are pretty much dps classes, the enchantress being the 'glass hammer' classic nuke class.

While the new system caters more to pures, a skill can be boosted by multiple attributes (as with the Restore skill), so different builds could be strong in different skills, and obviously to varying degrees.

Though ultimately I'd agree that stat based skills aren't the answer, skill trees are, yeah baby! You'll never really be able to balance out different specs when you have to cater for 3 potential builds using the same skill set.

[caelitus]

Perhaps a skill tree that unlocks unique skills at certain attribute combination's

i.e.
50 in str, and 25 in int, makes a new skill available which dosent rely on what character you are ( attack or buff )
- which becomes stronger depending on the combination of stats.

100 int, 50 dex unlocks a skill that increases damage and crit
100 dex, and 35 str unlocks a different attack skill that has different status effects.

and skills that open up for the pure stat characters

220 int unlocks skill that makes the caster invulnerable to status effects and reduced damage for a short period of time.
220 str unlocks a skill that increases damage by a % for a short period of time.

[Nightarcher]

1. The update will not weaken hybrids at all! It makes certain skills stronger when using a pure setup. Think of it as balancing, because hybrids destroy pures at the moment. Your Paladin won't have a harder time hitting at all.

2. Not all skills will be effected in this update. Just certain often-used skills for each class.

3. The update hasn't even come put yet. Don't rant about pures being overpowered until we actually test it out.

[caelitus]

sigh... hip hip hurray for partial readers

The trade-off for this is: if the Archer puts all points into Strength or into Intelligence, the effect of his class-specific skills will be significantly reduced in comparison to an Archer who has focused on keeping his Dexterity statistic very high.

Same goes for the other classes. Warrior "Slash" abilities, "Stomp" and others are influenced by the amount of Strength the Warrior possesses. Enchantress damage-dealing spells work the same way and so does "Heal." More Int means better "Heal" performance for the Enchantress. (Oh... the Warrior's "Restore" is based largely on Strength, the Archer's "Restore" based on Dexterity, but both of them get a bonus to the amount of healing from their Intelligence statistic.)"

this is a suggestion board - is this post not in the correct place? we can suggest all day long if things are left open for speculation. Not only that,
believe it or not, this is how the Devs get feedback, whether or not its useful!

I can suggest something like this -
When level 80 campaign comes out I think fighting periwinkle dragons would be paramount for the pocket legend universe!

[bmc85uk]

Perhaps a skill tree that unlocks unique skills at certain attribute combination's

i.e.
50 in str, and 25 in int, makes a new skill available which dosent rely on what character you are ( attack or buff )
- which becomes stronger depending on the combination of stats.

100 int, 50 dex unlocks a skill that increases damage and crit
100 dex, and 35 str unlocks a different attack skill that has different status effects.

and skills that open up for the pure stat characters

220 int unlocks skill that makes the caster invulnerable to status effects and reduced damage for a short period of time.
220 str unlocks a skill that increases damage by a % for a short period of time.

You seem hell bent on complicating things with these 'unlocks' at certain attribute levels. What I actually meant by skill trees is explained in the overhaul thread in my sig.

I cat say I'm a fan of the unlocks you've suggested, to me they just seem like a hidden bonus scheme tied to attributes, which I often find a PITA and very unwelcoming to new players.

PL is aimed to be as user friendly as possible; sometimes too user friendly, but I like the way that (especially with 1.4) everything is laid out for you to see, with little information hidden away, except for procs of course.

[caelitus]

Well it's just a suggestion, coming from imagination land. This is where possible good ideas come from. These things wouldn't necessarily be hidden as you suggest or complicated, a skill tree can be present in game, and on the website to show the skills (and their abilities / procs) that are available according to the players stats. In fact it is really quite the same as your suggesting except your "unlocking" is dependent on level. This gives a player a goal to work towards while working up the skill tree and levels depending on the style of play they want. Of course anything that you or I have suggested is probably years off ;)

[Flamin]

Imagination land?!?!? Another spirit ready to be claimed by the laughing hystericalness of Flamin and CFF.

[caelitus]

What are your thoughts on the Topic?

[bmc85uk]

I hope we aren't years off, I have a lot of patience for PL, but not THAT much.

The only real problem I see with your suggestions, is that because they would run along side the attribute-skill bonuses, changing one would mean you'd need to change the other.

What you have suggested is potentially a very nice feature if done right, but the problem with the game already is that they've built too much imbalance on top of the core of the game, which isn't actually balanced itself.

Health/Mana isn't balanced, Attributes aren't balanced, Classes aren't balanced, Skills aren't balanced, and Equipment is ridiculously unbalanced, to add one more thing on top of all that would just be mayhem.

If each individual area was balanced in the first place, it wouldn't make such a huge variation in character strength, if you had really weak equipment for example, at least the core character would be relatively the same strength as others, but right now that isn't the case. And so I think it's important for us to focus on getting the foundation of the game to as much of a level playing field as possible, starting with a more sensible health/mana system.

[caelitus]

This is the system bmc85uk wrote up, you can find it under his link -

1. The Health & Mana System.

With the current system, health and mana only increase by the points allotted into STR and INT, 2 points spent equating to 1 HP/MP gained. Given that over the course of the game players will naturally expect their character to get stronger, it then becomes a necessity for damage and spell cost to be capped by unorthodox methods.

If health and mana increased naturally with level as in most RPGs, players are given a feel that their character is getting naturally stronger from the core; there is more difference between a low and a high level character, greater room for customisation by the player and a lot less complication with balance as the level range increases.

STR/INT should have a greater effect on regen to correlate with the increase, ideally at level 100 you would want to regenerate at the same rate (as a percentage). Imagine that the warrior and enchanter are exactly opposite in health and mana as they are with the current system, the base values I used for calculation are:

Warrior – 154HP – 3.08H/s +11HP/level (full regen in 50s)
Archer – 112HP – 1.72H/s +8HP/level (full regen in 65s)
Ench – 98HP – 1.23H/s +7HP/level (full regen in 80s)

At the current level cap, with no points allocated to STR (or INT for MP) this would yield:

Warrior – 638HP – 12.76H/s
Archer – 464HP – 7.14H/s
Ench – 406HP – 5.08H/s

Perhaps not the ideal values for balance, however I feel that with these amounts, and some tweaking to PvP/PvE damage, it would balance quite nicely, also making higher dungeons harder for low level characters as they should be.

[caelitus]

Oh and the things I'm mentioning aren't to be taken as a single system, just ideas that can be torn apart or patched together with other others peeps ideas or suggestions.

[Elffy]

I know STS rushed this game out to provide funding. But it seems like there a few core things they should have worked on before releasing this game.

[caelitus]

Maybe it was for the best, as funding may have increased their output and production. But yes, there are a lot of things that can be added, revamped, or changed completely to make this game unique and provide not only an environment that will keep players entranced, but also a provide a system that will be flexible for character customization. They have stumbled onto a great facet for MMO players, however a lot of the ideas a incredible tasks to ask for but hopefully we can see them in some form later on.

[caelitus]

As bmc85uk said, and restated in this forum, the core mechanics need to be worked on and fixed before the company moves on. As discussed before ideas posted
on this thread help the Devs with direction as I'm sure they read these topics thoroughly to get player feedback.

Whether an idea about the HP/Mana system, game mechanics, or even character customization it all helps even if not implemented some ideas will be salvaged and maybe even put into the game. Post! :)

[Necrobane]

Ive got another alternative solution. How about hybrids get a smaller percentage of their armours stats. Only i very small dif. Anyone see any major flaws?

[caelitus]

Although we don't know yet it seems that pures are going to have the power on their side, so hybrids might actually need a buff - not sure yet