Official Stat-Driven Skills Feedback Thread for 1.4

[Cinco]

This is the official feedback thread for version 1.4's updated Skills System.

For details on this change check out this link (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?6466-Upcoming-System-Change-Stat-Driven-Skills!&p=64159#post64159).

We will be providing two (2) free re-specs after you've all had at least one full day to play with this change.:D

The team will will be returning to this thread for useful feedback, ideas and issues to address for our next update. The plan is to make small, focused alterations to the skills and their formulas so that both Hybrid and Pure styles feel fun and viable.

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

- Cinco

[flaimdude]

Woohoo, I can't wait for this!

[KingFu]

This will be out today with 1.4 today right? Sorry if I missed it in the thread.

[TwinkTastical]

Umm i have feedback! Can you be an ao3 boss... itd be soooo cool! i even drew some basic art! Pretty Basic... tried to add as much detail as possible..
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab330/instinctiveko/ddf7fd20.jpg

[FluffNStuff]

I have a question. When lightning at level 5 says damage 66 - 166, does that mean it rolls for damage between the two?

[ShadowsCP]

One weird thing. Before the update my Archer had one point in Restore. Afterwards, the skill point became unused. But only that one skill point and I have not used a respec. He's a pure Dex archer. So is there a base STR/INT needed for healing spells now?

[Cinco]

One weird thing. Before the update my Archer had one point in Restore. Afterwards, the skill point became unused. But only that one skill point and I have not used a respec. He's a pure Dex archer. So is there a base STR/INT needed for healing spells now?

This skill changed with 1.4. When a skill changes we give you back the points you put into that skill so you can re-spend them.

- Cinco

[FluffNStuff]

Now that I confirmed my own question by checking the patch notes again that do say minimum and maximum, I can mention my issues with the roll. A roll of 95-105 for lightning would be one thing, but a range of 64 - 161 seems excessive. I know it averages out over the long run, but the variance could be ridiculous in a PVP matches where the sample size (number of skill uses) would be so small over a match. I know some weapons have a large range but the speed of a weapon helps smooth it out. Just a thought to toss out to mill over.

[kavanah]

I still wish I had a bit bigger boost to armor and hp as a warrior where an archer gets a huge boost to hit% and crit with dex.

[Greeve]

I still wish I had a bit bigger boost to armor and hp as a warrior where an archer gets a huge boost to hit% and crit with dex.

Depending on how good the increase in damage to skills is, its probably still better to invest in dex after reaching the min str required to equip items. That's my hunch anyhow. Dex is just too good overall to pass up on compared to bumping more into STR, and for a tank you are using your skills more for the effects they have rather than the DD they bring to the table. Would be interested in hearing if the damage increase to these skills makes it worth dumping any investment in dex....

[jonboy]

Ok my first initial impression of the change for a paly in pve is.... I can't notice any negative impacts, I played balefort castle:5 as my experiment as it helped me with the tomes quest and I'm familiar with the damage I do & approx. amount of crits.

So after running the same map post skill change, if anything I have noticed very little difference to my damage output & a slight increase in the amount of crits I receive.

I'll post more tests when I get to work and have a chance to try some higher maps to compare with my pre update notes.

Also played some pvp this morning, didn't seem terrible, but I'm not a good pvp player.

[Snakespeare]

I know. I can hardly tell it has changed. I tried to solo Tombs of Mynas using some AoE spells with an upper 30s enchantress, but she was not able to obliterate the mummies before they killed her. So, I think the impact on PvE might be minimal.

How is it working for any one you PvPers?

[Nugget]

So far everything I've seen I'm loving. Don't change a thing.

[jonboy]

Yea pvpers any feedback?

[Furrawn]

Hey...
I've just played a cluster of games w Furrawn my paladin to see how the new changes would affect her. In all honesty (and you know I'm honest), I don't see anything negative AT ALL. I have to admit that all my hybrids have the amount required to equip 45 lvl inventory (or whatever lvl they are at) and all the excess pts are always put into the build. So furrawn was str 159 int 86. She's not weaker w the update. If anything, I feel like her spells are more effective than they were....

Personally, I'm loving this update...
And thks again, devs, for the upcoming two free respecs...

I don't know how other hybrids are faring... I have an int birdie, int bear, & bowbear... I'll see how they are... Anyone tried other hybrid builds yet? Or pures?

[smokester]

ok for pvp this update has not fixed the unbalanced issue... all it has done is just tilt the axis towards pure dex archers and tanks (sort of)... hybrids do nothing i cant seem to get maybe 2 or 3 kills wit my bowbear but can get like 10+ with my pure dex archer... the talon archers r the best in pvp now... ye for pve theres not much difference noticeable but in pvp there is an apparent noticeable difference... instead of fixing the imbalance in pvp it just has shifted it over from pallys to archers

i donno me personally, i think there can never be balance in this game hate to be pessimistic but i believe so... i was thinking maybe tweak the dmg on skills a lil bit to create some sort of balance... like archers blast shot is just ridiculous right now and drain life too... i donno im not that knowledgable in these MMO things but just what ive noticed and think

[Staffed]

yeah there will probably always be better classes thats part of the fun, trying to find which it is and/or how to beat the best class.

[Kurlz]

not much difference that ive noticed...but i like

[PvP]

ok for pvp this update has not fixed the unbalanced issue... all it has done is just tilt the axis towards pure dex archers and tanks (sort of)... hybrids do nothing i cant seem to get maybe 2 or 3 kills wit my bowbear but can get like 10+ with my pure dex archer... the talon archers r the best in pvp now... ye for pve theres not much difference noticeable but in pvp there is an apparent noticeable difference... instead of fixing the imbalance in pvp it just has shifted it over from pallys to archers

i donno me personally, i think there can never be balance in this game hate to be pessimistic but i believe so... i was thinking maybe tweak the dmg on skills a lil bit to create some sort of balance... like archers blast shot is just ridiculous right now and drain life too... i donno im not that knowledgable in these MMO things but just what ive noticed and think

No offence to any hybrids, but this is the way it needs to be. The dex class needs to be the highest in DPS, not the tank (or tank-hybrid for that matter). I'm just glad it actually makes sense now. THANK YOU SPACETIME! Very long awaited update, despite the tweaks it may need.

[bmc85uk]

Before we seriously consider any more modifications to the skills in lieu of PvP balance, can we get some kind of health/mana system update? We at least need more HP pool to work with before trying to trim damage to acceptable levels. Archers and Enchantresses are now damage monsters, chewing through any health bar in a single volley.

[jonboy]

Can the Pvper,s test a str/dex play v a pure int chantress, I'm interested.

Also still nothing I'm unhappy about, if the Pure Enchantress get a boost to their damage then that is fine, they play the glass cannon, which is standard fare for a AOE Mage, Palys don't have the boost, but we have all this armour and what not so basically we trade increased damage for increased armor/survivability.

[bmc85uk]

True, I'd expect a pure mage to be fragile, but right now I definitely think PvP overall is way to short due to low health pools.

[Thuull]

Pve:
Paly - same as everyone else is saying. No serious negatives.
Warrior - feels quite a bit stronger, maybe too strong. With full horus gear (put isis away to test damage output) soloed all of ao2-5 up to the first boss in record time, only had to use tank skills once, no pots, before someone else joined the game and we took the bosses out...while still in horus. Damage is increased nicely.
Dagger bird - can notice increase in damage, but not all that much. Considering squishiness, I had hoped for more, and it doesn't feel like the damage king a full dex dps'er with highest dps weapon available should be...might want to take a look at that.

Overall impressions: Extremely positive change to the game all around. This seems to have buffed pures without directly nerfing hybrids.

Well done.

[jonboy]

This is the official feedback thread for version 1.4's updated Skills System. For details on this change check out this link (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?6466-Upcoming-System-Change-Stat-Driven-Skills!&p=64159#post64159). We will be providing two (2) free re-specs after you've all had at least one full day to play with this change.:D The team will will be returning to this thread for useful feedback, ideas and issues to address for our next update. The plan is to make small, focused alterations to the skills and their formulas so that both Hybrid and Pure styles feel fun and viable.

Thanks in advance for your feedback,

- Cinco

How Cinco? How?, I'm not 100% sure yet, but you seem to have done the impossible in pve and as Thull put it " buffed the pures without nerfing the hybrids", Well Done.

[vulgarstrike]

red scarab archers are OP in pvp. pve seems pretty balanced, but pure mages have a good upper hand.

[smokester]

all this feedback from ppl about pvp and how you think is balanced well i dont see ya in pvp that much or at all lol... i was just telling how it is so pure dex archers should have best dps yes but like i said the blast shot is just ridiculous... if they keep it this way all you gonna see in pvp is bunch of chickens running around and its whoever presses teh buttons faster wins lmao... i would like more comments from the ppl who are actually there in pvp all the time no offense...

all i would like to see is that you at least give a chance for hybrids to go up against pure dex archer or tank hybrids or good solid pure mages cuz right now there is little to none... but then again if your going up against inexperienced players there is a good chance but against pvp veterans no way

also teven and i, no. 1 and 2 on pvp kills for warriors, well it just blows... teven repspecced to tank because of this and i dont play my dex bear that much anymore because my pure dex archer is way better for pvp now

EDIT: also pallys they can still do some serious dmg equipped wit a shock lance lol... not cool and kill pure mages

[jonboy]

Smokster L2R, :) most positive comments are about pve, with calls to the pvpers for feedback, as we don't pvp enough to provide legit feedback.

Apart from you, I haven't seen any of the pvpers provide feedback.

[kavanah]

Pve:
Paly - same as everyone else is saying. No serious negatives.
Warrior - feels quite a bit stronger, maybe too strong. With full horus gear (put isis away to test damage output) soloed all of ao2-5 up to the first boss in record time, only had to use tank skills once, no pots, before someone else joined the game and we took the bosses out...while still in horus. Damage is increased nicely.
Dagger bird - can notice increase in damage, but not all that much. Considering squishiness, I had hoped for more, and it doesn't feel like the damage king a full dex dps'er with highest dps weapon available should be...might want to take a look at that.

Overall impressions: Extremely positive change to the game all around. This seems to have buffed pures without directly nerfing hybrids.

Well done.

Ok well I just got interested in using Horus now =)

What were you running with equipped? I just did AO2:4 and Plasma Pyramids solo, clearing of course, without using pots. I had on thoth armor, isis shield, isis helm, zuraz shock lance. I'm thinking of going to zuraz shock lance, thoth armor, horus shield, and horus helm. So i'm interested what you were using...

[Thuull]

Don't remember *exactly* (stuck at work) but I'm pretty sure I was running with just a djinn spear (I think I had my osiris on, but might have been horus as well), mynas plate horus, helm horus and shield thoth. My dodge pretty much sucked compared to tank set up, but I split stats between strength and dex for hit rate, crit and the dodge the dex provides. My crit rate was very high. And it was fast...much faster than I hoped for. I basically just spammed the three primary damage single target melee attacks, relied on red and orange damage otherwise. Used other skills minimally, some beckon here and there. No stomp at all. Only really started to take damage once or twice at which point I just hit my tank skills. I might have popped a single health pot at that point, but don't remember doing so. Maybe my str based health regen (small as it was without any isis on) covered it while the tank skills were up...don't really remember.

I was definitely very pleased.

[FluffNStuff]

Held my own as a bowbear. Respeced first though to add some more pvp skills and getting used to it. Definitely no longer the over powered death machine, but I still like the benefits it provides and am going to stay bowbear. Just need some more tweaking and fighting and testing.

[Royce]

To me this feels like a pretty minor change. The biggest change is obviously for archers since they can go full dex, and max their crit, DPS, etc. and now also damage of their skills. Paladin and Dex mage feel pretty much the same. I was very excited to try my 100% Int mage out in PvP, but was disappointed by the result. In the end, I believe that character will still be far more effective sacrificing some skill damage and putting secondary attribute points into Dex for damage, crit, etc. And herein lies the problem, not that it is surprising to me, but Dex is just too overpowered, and Str and Int too underpowered and really only useful for meeting gear requirements. An archer whose skills now depend on Dex is in a great position because there is no reason to spend on Str or Int anyway. However, a mage or warrior, whose skills depend on Int and Str now, still needs Dex to be at all effective. So, unlike an archer, mages and warriors cannot max out their primary attribute and get all the extra benefit of stat-driven skills. This change has been pretty good in general, but what it has done more than anything, is underline the imbalance of attributes at the core of this game. I hate to sound like a broken record but until I see a better suggestion for fixing this serious issue, I will keep pointing people to my thread: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?5515-Fixing-the-Attribute-Imbalance-How-to-make-Int-and-Str-worthwhile-investments-D

[bmc85uk]

I'm completely with Royce, dex is still overpowered. I don't think dex should be nerfed, but instead, str and int should provide a little hit, and a similar boost to damage as dex currently does for their respective weapons (str powers str weapon damage, int for int weapon damage), dex should then only power dex weapon damage.

I really can't stress enough how much we are fighting an uphill battle unless we get some kind of health/mana system revamp (yes now I'm a broken record).

It's an absolute waste of time balancing/trimming damage to work with the tiny health pools we have at the moment. If mana pool was also increased, skill mana cost could increase with level, therefore putting a choke-hold on using maxed skills at a very low level.

An example of a health/mana update is in the overhaul thread. (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?4677-Overhaul)

[Snakespeare]

I haven't noticed any difference. Well, a few skills were more effective, but in fact, it still takes about the same number of hits to take down the same bad guys in PvE. I was worried it would dramatically change the game, but it has not. It's a subtle change. I won't be complaining anymore. :-)

[Azrael]

Overall Cinco, this seems like a very minor change that was a step in the right direction, but did very little. Unfortunately the little it changes this "revamp" brought to Pocket Legends were negative. I was very excited for this change, and perhaps i expected to much because we had waited over a month for this. I have spoken to Justg and i realize that the idea is to make small changes, but as of now i'm disappointed.

As far as PVE goes, it has always been mind numbingly easy so i noticed no changes. I hope the new elite map pack will be challenging.

As far as PVP goes, the only noticeable thing that has changed is archer damage (and for some reason damage and accuracy seem to be mixed. Perhaps its just that they do more damage so it seems like they are hitting more). It also seems that everyone may be doing slightly more damage but its hard to tell. What i can say for sure though is that players are killed in pvp even fast than before, and the importance of having defense buffs up to be able to survive for even 3 seconds is even higher than before. This is absolutely terrible for pvp. It has made pvp require even less skill than before, and made it less enjoyable.

I realize some players want hybrids, and some players don't, but until there are sweeping changes made to the stat and skill systems, pvp will remain a flawed and morose shell of a system that could be amazing. I have made multiple post saying what needs to be done to fix this stuff, but the thing that amazes me is that there has been seemingly no interest in raising Health Points in characters. It seems very obvious that a major way to improve the games pvp is to have players with high str have large amount of HP. Then simply make pve mobs do more damage. If players are worried about enchantress's having high HP, well then as a result they should do little damage with spells and gain little from healing.

Overall this was such a minor change, that i cant even tell which stat governs which skill, with exception to the examples cinco posted. That pretty much sums it up.

[bmc85uk]

Not that many skills were changed, just damage and heal skills for the most part (maybe more to follow as the balance is worked) but I haven't noticed any others.

I do agree we need more hp to survive in PvP, I don't think it should come from strength, I think it should be influenced by level as with most RPGs. Check the overhaul link in my sig for an example.

You wouldn't want to change much about the enchantress as is, definitely a bit less attribute boost focus on damage spells and a little influence on BoV, increasing the armour and hp it adds (not huge amounts, maybe 10 armour/hp per 100 int).

Manashield is pretty pointless in pvp except as a last resort, and I often find damage cuts through straight to health ignoring mana pool, I don't really understand why, someone suggested that it was when damage exceeded remaining mana, but surely it should still drain mana first, then the remaining damage from HP?

Regardless, I think if mana shield was reworked so that it only absorbed a % of the damage, say 20-60% levels 1-5, and then int slightly increased the armour boost (very little, maybe 5 per 100 int), it would be a far more feasible skill, both in PvP and PvE. Manashield should also 'break' when the mana pool is depleted, to prevent the horrible situation you get where you're basically doomed.

[kavanah]

Just a FYI, Justg told me that they were going to really take in constructive feedback from the community on how to tweak this thing. So remember, stay positive, stay constructive, and KNOW that the dev's are listening to yall on this thread. Just some encouragement I thought I would share with everyone hehe.

[jonboy]

Hey Kav, I think we have all been responsible kids and been constructive, most of the feedback is positive and construcitve.

[Raxie]

i can hardly notice the difference. archers though are definitely much stronger and can now easily beat paladins. however, tanks are still bad at pvp. i have played lots of tanks with 142 str and then the rest into dex and i even played a pure str tank. however, i can still easily beat tanks. hm...

[Neurion]

Why do avians need to be stuck to dex, bears to str, and elves to int? Each class has good mix of skills that could benefit from all stats. It's kind of weird that archers' Restore is buffed by dex, while bears' is improved by str. I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this thought, but maybe stat-driven skills shouldn't be too pro-purebuilds

[Bentmer]

Why do avians need to be stuck to dex, bears to str, and elves to int? Each class has good mix of skills that could benefit from all stats. It's kind of weird that archers' Restore is buffed by dex, while bears' is improved by str. I don't know, maybe I'm alone on this thought, but maybe stat-driven skills shouldn't be too pro-purebuilds

I don't think anyone is suggesting that there be no flexibility in how you build your character. I think they're suggesting (and I agree 100%) that each class gain more benefits from their primary stat than from a secondary stat. That is not necessarily the case for 2 out of the 3 classes now. If there was a change to INT and STR so that Bears and Enchantresses gained the same rate of dps that Archers do from DEX, I think that would help the imbalance alot. As far as hybrids and pures go, one way to keep hybrids viable while buffing the pures is to add skill trees to each class. That way a person could spec their skills to their playstyle. A ranged Bear for instance could learn skills in the 'ranged' part of their skill tree that benefit from DEX instead of STR. I know such a change to the system would require a lot of work. I'm just giving a suggestion. ;0

[Neurion]

... I think they're suggesting (and I agree 100%) that each class gain more benefits from their primary stat than from a secondary stat. ...

I know what you mean, and I agree with what your suggestions. My point is that all avian skills, for example, shouldn't have to be improved only through DEX. That effectively kills any optimal hybrid avian builds (anyone can argue with this statement, but you know what I'm saying).

But let's say for example, STR improves Avian Scream range, or INT improves Restore's/Meditation's healing rate. This way, you controlled Birds' primary stat benefits (i.e. pure builds will get better Blast Shot, which was meant to be a "primary" skill of birds), while also giving hybrids some sort of bonus. Also, people might start considering spreading their stats around STR, DEX, and INT, depending on which of their skills they want to focus on.

[Royce]

So here's my assessment of how all the classes have been affected by the stat-driven skills update.

Bird:
Dex - Now the overall strongest class in the game, they have had the greatest benefit from the stat-driven skills change since they need not sacrifice anything to max their primary attribute.
Str - Slightly improved due to secondary Dex, but overall a less appealing alternative to dex bird since the update strengthened them so much more.
Int - I don't have one of these, so can't really say, but my impression is they are basically in the same boat as Str-birds; slightly strengthened but weaker relative to the pure dex bird.

Bear:
Dex - Slightly improved, but not by much. Sort of up in the air to me whether it's even worth sacrificing Dex to put Str on these guys.
Str - Significantly improved (second biggest improvement tied with pure mages).
Int - Not improved at all. Primary Int does little but allow Int weapons to be equipped, and they need secondary dex to be effective so there is no room for Str to take advantage of the stat-driven skills.

Elves:
Dex - Slightly improved maybe, though honestly I'm still thinking it's best to go pure Dex with these guys, in which case they have not changed at all.
Str - No change. They need secondary Dex to be effective, so there is no room for Int to take advantage of the Stat-driven skills.
Int - Improved significantly, though Int doesn't do enough that you won't still need secondary Dex.

Overall, as I have said before, the main issue with the new stat-driven skills is the imbalance of the attributes. Str and Int are totally underpowered, and not needed for any reason other than to equip gear. So birds have the advantage in that every build needs Dex to be effective, and they get the additional stat-driven skill bonus from it. Non-bird hybrids are least helped by stat driven skills since they must use a non-standard primary attribute to equip gear, and then build dex. Dex bears and dex mages could potentially put some secondary points into their skill-driving stat, but with the benefits of Int and Str being so much less than that benefits of Dex, I don't see much reason for them to do so, particularly since the bonus through stat-driven skills of a secondary attribute is pretty minor. Basically I think the imbalanced attributes need to be fixed badly. Tweaking of stat driven skills could certainly make them better, but they will never achieve balance as long as everybody needs Dex, and nobody needs Int or Str except to meet gear requirements, which is the current situation. My suggestion for how to remedy the imbalanced attributes can be found here (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?5515-Fixing-the-Attribute-Imbalance-How-to-make-Int-and-Str-worthwhile-investments-D)

[Bentmer]

I know what you mean, and I agree with what your suggestions. My point is that all avian skills, for example, shouldn't have to be improved only through DEX. That effectively kills any optimal hybrid avian builds (anyone can argue with this statement, but you know what I'm saying).

But let's say for example, STR improves Avian Scream range, or INT improves Restore's/Meditation's healing rate. This way, you controlled Birds' primary stat benefits (i.e. pure builds will get better Blast Shot, which was meant to be a "primary" skill of birds), while also giving hybrids some sort of bonus. Also, people might start considering spreading their stats around STR, DEX, and INT, depending on which of their skills they want to focus on.

I think we are saying the same thing only with different suggestions. I suggested they implement skill trees for each class where the new skills would get benefits from secondary stats. One skill tree would be the 'pure' tree and they would incorporate most of the existing skills that are buffed by the primary stat of each class.

I think you are suggesting that existing skills get benefits from secondary stats. My question is why would you want to? The skills, for the most part, are geared towards a different play style than yours. Maybe as a stopgap fix perhaps.

I totally agree with Royce, before we talk about buffing hybrids, we need to level the playing field regarding stat benefits. Right now the only spec that can have their cake and eat it too are the pure dex builds.

[VainityArcher]

*Epic Battle* Narwal VS Unicorns
Who Shall Prevail?

[Snakespeare]

Interesting summary. I re-spec'd my Int Bear on the assumption that extra stat points should now go to Str to enhance his skills, as opposed to Dex. Well, I picked up a few hit points of damage at best. They seem to add in from 10% to 25% of your related STAT to create the new base damage. That usually comes to a number between 3 and 10. So, where you were doing 60 DPS, you are now doing 65 DPS. 5 points of damage. Taking those points away from Dex was a mistake! I would rather be more likely to hit than do a couple more points of damage.

[cjchad]

2 free re-specs!!

[SoShaan]

Int bear Hybrid
I used free restats and 2 of my own. Trying several different setups. Every combo if Lv45 mage gear you can dream up. I still have not been able to compete with the pure n PvP. I have no care how many points do what % boost if I cant beat another good player.
What has been done here is you nuked the fun out of any player who doesnt want tobe stuck in 1 of 3 play styles. Come to PvP and what you see is all the bear with same equip, mage with the same, birds same. All having the same setup. Cookie cut copies with nothing unique or special about any of them.
Now in order have a chance to play, Im forced to go back to Str. I grew 1-45 as Str. it was in no way as fun or exciting as Int Bear.
switch it back please, nothing balanced bout any of this

[Royce]

What has been done here is you nuked the fun out of any player who doesnt want tobe stuck in 1 of 3 play styles. Come to PvP and what you see is all the bear with same equip, mage with the same, birds same. All having the same setup. Cookie cut copies with nothing unique or special about any of them.

How is this any different from the previous situation where PvP just consisted of paladins, bowbears, and maybe a few int bears and archers, all using the same gear? This is as balanced as the classes have ever been IMO. Now if only overpowered Dex could be fixed...

[SoShaan]

My setup is now weaker, meaning its not at all balanced. Why couldn't they allow everybody regardless of play style be a viable option in pvp? Your right about the Dex though, speed and range are unmatched.