PL Today – In-Depth Analysis and Long Term Outlook

[WhoIsThis]

Introduction
Well to begin with, I’ve been gone for quite some time (about 6 months) and due to real life issues (will be moving soon and I’m due for surgery soon), but I’ve been back long enough to discuss the trends that PL has been coming towards.

I’ve mostly put this together as a way of collecting some of my thoughts, but at least one person has told me (off-game) that they would like to see this on a thread and addressed, so at the risk of being moderated, I’ve put this on the forums. For readability purposes, I've split these into separate posts.

If nothing else, I seriously wonder if the Sewers will go down as the height of PL ... an era where skill dominated, an era where despite it's imperfections, elixirs were not the force that they were and PvP was much more balanced.

You may agree with me ... or you may think I'm totally crazy.

[WhoIsThis]

PvE Situation

The PvE Situation of PL is relatively simple. Endgame is now an elixir dominated event. Players that are wealthy or who have reached 71 have mostly gotten there by more or less buying their way through the game and spending stupendous amounts (at times) of platinum. In some cases, there have been players who have spent in excess of $5,000 USD on platinum, mostly for elixirs. That is an extreme case, but it is not uncommon to see players that have spent well over $1,000 USD on elixirs.



The player skill in PvE has noticeably declined. I think that this is ultimate culmination of the trend that started with the introduction of Nuri’s Hallows. When Nuri’s Hallows first came out, many players found that they either had difficulty adapting to the difficulty level compared to the Sewers and/or wanted to reach level 61 by the most rapid means possible. The end result was widespread elixir usage. After many players reached 61, they then began using elixirs to accelerate their completion of the glyph sets (then top end gear), and finally, farming materials for the demonic glyph sets after their introduction later in the dungeon.



After that … a large percentage of players simply became addicted to the elixirs. Many formerly competent or players I would consider competent were adversely affected. They had adapted a play-style designed for elixir usage and were either unable (or perhaps unwilling) to go back to a “normal” style. This carried on into Mount Fang and has continued into Humania. A secondary reason may have been that many players have been that many players did not have the patience anymore to farm a dungeon and wanted a quick fix, something elixirs could offer.



The effects have been widespread and not just for elixir users. For newer players, they’ve become used to being carried by people with elixirs. It’s fed a different message, not get to the level cap, get experienced and build your skills (like a typical MMO), but rather, that elixirs > skill. Essentially we now have three groups of players, elixir-users, people carried by elixir users, and a small, shrinking minority of players bemoaning the current situation and the impact of elixirs.



The other disturbing trend is the general acceptance of the “carnival” style for Humania – namely the final level of Humania, which requires a platinum fee per run. I recall that when the Winter Festival was introduced, the reaction to a carnival style of run was very negative and resulted in a few people getting banned or warnings in PMs to many players (myself included). Today, it would appear that such things are widely accepted – what’s in dispute is what is considered a “fair” drop rate in return for 3 plat per run. For me it’s a far cry from say, Alien Oasis. In that era, had STS attempted to charge plat on a per run basis for say, Victory Lap or Plasma Pyramid, the reaction would have been very strongly negative. I think that this is a result of people being conditioned to spend plat, particularly among the newer players but even among the older players as well who have … changed. For players who didn’t leave like I did, I suppose it’s a much more gradual and hard to notice change, whereas for me it was a shock.



For new players, leveling appears to have been made more accessible. STS appears to have reduced the xp requirements to get to the endgame. I don’t view this as a good thing. For a new player to understand PL, despite its simplified mechanics and play it to a level I would define as “competent”, they need a certain level of experience to absorb everything that is around them. The end result is that we now have players that are even less prepared for the endgame and far more likely to be carried or use elixirs because frankly, they suck.

[WhoIsThis]

Endgame PvP Situation

The PvP situation is somewhat more complicated. The reason is because we have several tiers of PvP, each with different equipment, different relative class strengths/weaknesses, and different tactics.



Endgame PvP is now a dodge-based or luck-based game. That is a far bigger criticism that I make it sound. The rewards for being skilled and experienced at playing your class and build are far smaller than ever before. For an MMO to succeed, fundamentally, you need to have a game where there’s an incentive to be skilled, where there’s an incentive to keep playing until you build that degree of skill that you need to perform.



For players that have been around for a long time, I want to draw your attention to the decreasing number of new player questions. It used to be that new players would start PvP thinking that they would “try” something new, get owned, and in a few cases, post for help on the forums. The players that were committed, that wanted to do better would try and learn and in time, make progress. The ones that were not would usually quit PvP, hide their PvP stats on their toons, and run around saying that PvP required “no skill”, when in reality, it was a whole different game from PvE and one with a learning curve that they did not have the patience to do. Those types of threads are now mostly gone. The reason why is because endgame PvP is not skill based anymore – it’s luck based. To be fair, there has always been an element of luck in PvP, but never to the extent that it is today – where it has dominated over skill and experience.



The reason for this is one stat – dodge for all 3 classes. Dodge has increased across the board. Let’s examine the effect on the core classes:



Dex birds – well let’s just say that if you are fighting another dex bird, it’s all in the dodge now. If they dodge you and you don’t, you’re dead. If it’s the opposite – you’ll own that fight. If both players dodge, expect a long match (isn’t dex bird vs dex bird supposed to be a fast fight?).



Int mage – int mages are supposed to have high dodge? Umm … what happened to the idea of glass cannon staff mages and high armor, low dodge wand mages? The cannon is there, assuming (very BIG and IMPROBABLE assumption) that they hit. But why do mages have the kind of dodge that they have? Oh, and why isn’t the staff at least 20% more potent than the wand/bracer set given the massive loss in survivability?



Str bear – strength sets, perhaps more so than anything else have broken end game PvP. It is possible to get in excess of 83% dodge with a strength set. Consider the implications. That means that 5 out of 6 shots at a fully buffed bear (or warbird) will be dodged (assuming you aren’t hit debuffed in which case it will be even smaller). Among the shots that get through … they won’t be doing that much damage with iron blood up for bears.



It ruins the possibility as well of any logical combo. Let me illustrate why. Suppose you are a bird trying to set up a cruel blast. First, your chances that your Shattering Scream will hit are 17% (1 in 6) and your chances that your Blast Shot will also hit are 17% (1 in 6). What does this mean about the chances that your combo will hit? That’s 1 in 36 or 2.78%. Actually, statistically you’re far safer in betting that both attacks will miss – 25 out of 36 times (69.44%), they will.



Pretty much with dodge so high, it becomes a game of praying that your attacks hit. This may be attractive to new players at the beginning, but for skilled players – what incentive is there to become skilled at PvP?



These high dodge sets aren’t a good idea for PvE either. It’s been noted that pure int mage and pure dex bird in the hands of skilled players work in PvE and lead to very rapid runs. With pure str bear … it doesn’t work; you need hit or your beckons won’t hit. Bears are more or less forced to use dex as a secondary stat by default (or perhaps int as it also provides some hit).



The other is that there are now 7 points in buffs. Consider the implications – suppose you are an int mage. Your blessings now gives you +70% crit, +35 damage when fully buffed and a ton of armor, plus a mana shield. Admittedly, the +70% crit is now of questionable value since 100% is the crit cap, but try fighting a fully buffed player unbuffed. Similar things could be said about birds. (Str sets are different because the dodge is so high that luck is predominant in determining outcomes here, which is again problematic). More so than ever before, if you are buffed and fighting unbuffed, skill doesn’t matter – you’ll own.



This is also a problem in PvE, although not to the same extent. Assuming you have no elixirs – you can safely get in front with buffs on, but the minute you have buffs down, you’re target practice. With elixirs, buffed, things just melt away in front of you, while unbuffed … it’s somewhat slower but still quite rapid.



Regardless, PvP at the endgame is in need of a serious rework in order for skill to become the deciding factor again.

[WhoIsThis]

Twinking PvP situation

Twinking deserves its own separate section. I want to draw your attention to Crimsontider’s thread. It’s perhaps the most comprehensive thread that attempted to address the issue.



To begin with, before I begin my critique and analysis, I have a lot of respect for Crim. But – I VERY STRONGLY disagree with his opinion on the matter and sympathize with the opinion of the twinkers.



http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?66689-quot-The-Wake-up-Call-quot-A-look-at-the-Hidden-Treasures-Weapons-Raging

Reading over the way that Crim describes it, it’s clear that he does not twink very often (neither do I truth be told). It’s clear that Crim is also a very active endgame PvE player. For PvE players, the disproportionate influence that PvP has, considering (in their opinion) the percentage of players that are very active PvPers has always been a mystery. Perhaps even more so, the impact of twinking is even more striking – to PvE players, twinking seems like a niche within a niche – that it has influence at all in the community to PvEers is considered an oddity.



The reason why PvP has always exerted a high influence is because of the percentage of high platinum spenders that are PvPers. Let’s consider the following. In any F2P MMO, only about 5-7% of the population is actually paying. The rest are really “F2P” and don’t spend much (if any) money. Among those 5-7%, again, only a percentage are high spenders. The reason why PvP has such a high influence is because from a company’s perspective, the only thing that matters is those 5-7%. The 93-95% are just server bandwidth – their only use is their potential to bring in new players and to make the game more enjoyable for those 5-7%. But among those 5-7% and within those the high spenders, a very high percentage of players are very regular PvPers and that is why PvP has the influence that it does.



Let’s look at the Forgotten weapons. Before their introduction, twinking was something that required intimate knowledge of a certain level range, the relative strengths of the gear at that level range, the introduction of new skills, and so on. These new weapons by contrast, upset that balance. They upset it to such an extent that it is possible to kill another player with just 2 auto attack hits with the bow (as a dex bird vs a mage).



For people that are into twinking, it’s not just a game. It’s their passion. It’s their reason for playing PL. They’ve spent in many cases, as early as 2010 learning about their level range, and everything there is to know. The introduction of the Forgotten weapons has destroyed their passion, their reason to play PL, and all that they’ve worked for. That is why there are so many twinkers passionately raging on the forums.



It’s very difficult for a PvE player to empathize with that. I recommend you read over Crim’s responses to the regular twinkers. True, the twinkers are guilty of being arrogant and less than civil at times. But notice Crim’s responses – he’s chosen to interpret the fact that they have disagreed with him as “non-constructive” and asked repeatedly for such people to leave. Judging by his responses, it’s clear that he is not a very active twinker and has relatively limited knowledge about it. Unable to suppress the dissent, he is forced to have his own thread locked. But even if the twinkers were arrogant, that does not mean that they do not have a solid argument. Everything that they have worked for in the past 2 years is gone – gone because of the introduction of the new weapons that totally upset twinking balance.



Will twinking adapt? Some have pointed to the introduction of GCD or the vanity sets as a precedent. Unfortunately, no. GCD was universal – everyone who played PL was affected by it. Thus it was able to largely negate the problem of handing advantages to most players (with the notable exception of players that have very fast reaction times – for them, it is a handout to slower players). The vanity sets did not provide a huge upgrade (I want anybody who thinks that they do to list for me how big the buffs are in stats) that ruined endgame PvP.



The forgotten weapons by contrast change the twinking game entirely. First, only players that have them have an advantage and it’s not due to skill, it’s because their gear is so OP that nothing else at that level range can compete. Second, they are exclusive. (That said, discontinued items are often reintroduced at the same time the following year, but what happens in the interim?) For new players starting twinks (or even alts of existing twinkers), they are at a huge disadvantage. They have to pay gold and are at the mercy of merchants for these weapons, which will likely get more and more costly as we get further from this event. Admittedly, most twinkers probably own at least a couple of these weapons, but what about new players and alts? There will be no “adapting” and there is no precedence for something like this.



Ultimately, the outcome will that twinking will become a game where whomever owns the Forgotten weapons and gets the first shot off wins and the only way to fight back is with Forgotten weapons. Twinking used to be something with many builds, exotic and unconventional times, and filled with experimentation. Barring a nerf, twinking will become homogenous and like endgame, the forgotten weapons and luck rather than skill or experimentation dominate.







Both endgame and twinking PvP are broken. I don’t make that statement lightly. Like many MMOs, all too often in PL, when somebody says that something is OP or “broken”, it’s usually because said player fought a highly skilled player of that class and got owned. But in this case, we have a situation where previous mechanics and tactics are completely written from ground up and a world where player skill is no longer the dominant deciding factor in outcomes. That is broken.

It saddens me to come to this conclusion. It used to be that saying you were a PvPer was a mark of pride. PvP, compared to PvE, had a large learning curve, was a distinct game unto itself in many ways, and require a lot of commitment. Today ... that has died in both because it is now more gear/luck-dependent and because of the arrival of players who resort to actions like kill-boosting.

[WhoIsThis]

Why did it happen?

I have theories of course, but without access to STS’ internal information, I can never be sure. But we can make an educated guess.



I suspect that whoever is in charge of making the stats of items never bothered to take the time to consider the implications of what they were doing. Group think could also be another issue.



Many of us are a part of generation Y. We’ve grown up with computers, we’re used to them, and we’re used to them as a source of entertainment. I first began working with computers when I was 5 years old in 1995 and started gaming when I was 6. Between that time and now, I’ve player perhaps over 150 games, maybe more. I’ve lost count. But one thing that has struck me is that you can always tell when a developer has spent a lot of time carefully thinking about something and testing their game for stability. There are signs. Generally a poorly conceived game will often be released in a beta state. They tend to have stability issues. Balance issues. And they are not fun to play and a struggle to get working, often due to the DRM that the develops attach futilely trying to deter file sharing while upsetting paying customers. Fortunately as an MMO-centric developer, STS is largely immune to that.



Judging by the comments from other people I have spoken with (I was not present at the time), Humania when it was released did have its share of stability issues. But in general, STS has done a pretty good job of fixing stability issues, at least when acknowledged. The game is in a state that I would consider fit for a release version.



But in terms of balance … I get the overall impression that careful thought and planning was not done. Balance is in an alpha state. That whoever made the decisions did not think the impacts through. Or they simply did not attach the importance of good balance in a game. Perhaps working on so many different games, STS’ resources are stretched and time was not allocated to do the appropriate beta and QA testing for balance.



That’s my best hypothesis. The only other worth mentioning is far more cynical. It’s that PvP is perceived to have a much lower revenue base than elixir burning endgame PvE, so the objective is to deliberately unbalance PvP and encourage elixir usage. I don’t think that this is the case, but I can neither prove nor disprove it. I think that theory one is the most probable.


As for the endless monetization, that's easy to explain. STS obviously feels that PL has reached a critical mass if you will. There is enough of a player base to aggressively monetize the game without any consequence.

[WhoIsThis]

Long term outlook

A lot of oldies tell me that they have stayed – they say that they hope that things will get better. If current trends hold though, that may not be the case. In fact, there is much more potential for things to get worse.



Dodge-based sets

First, the amount of dodge has been increasing with each new cap. That means that by next cap, if current trends hold, we could start to see 90%+ dodge on str based sets.



Since Nuri, the gap between dex and str sets has been growing with each new cap introduced. Dex has not had the kind of crit increases needed to compete, while str sets have had massive increases to dodge, health regen, armor, and survivability. Int sets meanwhile now have consistent crit when buffed, good damage, and offer competitive survivability, leaving dex behind.



These trends began in Nuri’s Hallows, worsened in Mount Fang, and worsened yet again in Humania. For those praying for a return to the “good old days”, I ask you – where is the evidence that this will change?



At some point, assuming current trends hold, str sets will have dodge approaching 100% (around the 81 cap). That will mean the end of all balance in PvP and PvE – the introduction of an “invincible” player or one that can’t die from enemy fire (in both PvP and PvE).



Player Quality

It would appear that the quality of player will continue decline. This is particularly true because the oldies will begin to quit or move on. To be sure, there have been good new players, but the percentage of good new players that take the time to learn their class, to improve, and to build their skills (especially in a world with elixirs) is on the decline.



It’s typical of any computer game. Generally when a game is new, when a game is not mainstream, the first couple of generation of players are very good. The respect each other, the world around them is full of discovery and wonder, and they set the bar for the future generation of players.



As a game becomes more mainstream, it starts to attract casuals and players of a less desirable sort. They don’t want to put in the effort, they want things NOW, and they don’t always interact with other players well. Meanwhile, the older generation starts to move on or seeing what the game becomes, leave in disgust. It happens in every MMO. In fact, it could be argued that it is happening to the MMO genre altogether. In the days of Camelot and Everquest, people who played were generally very skilled and treated people with a degree of civility that is harder and harder to find in today's MMOs. Only hardcore guilds and MMO players in games such as Final Fantasy or WoW approach their skill level. Gone though is the civility.



Let me split the game into 3 tiers:

Tier 3: New players and players that simply are bad. The clueless. They are either learning the game or are simply not good at games. Others are veteran players who well … computer games aren’t for them. It’s not the thing that they excel at.



Tier 2: Usually the largest category. The mediocre. These types of players have some skill. Usually though they are a lot worse than they think they are. Some players in this category pick on T3, knowing that they will never match the T1 players. A disproportionate number of players in this tier think that they are T1 when they are really mediocre. They also tend to have a lot of attitude I find.



Tier 1: Top end veteran players. In a mature game, this represents well under 5% of a population. They have situational class awareness, theorycrafting, and are skilled players. They are usually veterans and the cream of the crop.



Tier 1 is becoming an endangered species. In PvP, it’s impossible to distinguish between T1 and T2 because gear and luck are so dominant. In PvE, only without elixirs is it possible to distinguish. Furthermore (and unique to PL), elixir addicts can turn T1 players into T2s. (It’s very rare to see T1 players turn into T2s unless like myself, they choose to retire. For that reason, I view myself as a T2 player at this point. Elixirs are so unbalancing in PL that they change this.) Compounding all of this, there is a smaller and smaller percentage of T2 players becoming T1 players to replace the ones that leave.



Coming from other MMOs, I have noticed on PL that it’s not as politically correct to say these sorts of things. I think it’s because PL doesn’t have that kind of aggressive-competitive player base where everyone tries to play at their best. It’s also because PL has a younger, much less mature demographic that plays compared to many other MMOs.


Generally when pushed, devs of any MMO don’t acknowledge these sorts of things. They don’t want to. The reason is because regardless of a player’s skill, they all pay the same money. In fact, a low skill player might have a bigger incentive to buy plat because they don’t have the skills to perform competitively without plat. Not to mention, T3s and T2s are the overwhelming majority of any player base (except at the start) in an MMO so getting them ticked is bad business.

Elixir Usage

I anticipate that elixir use will continue to increase. I would also anticipate more potent and more expensive elixirs being introduced in the future. The 80p an hour elixir sold well enough to justify more potent and more expensive elixirs. And ... given how many people have bought it, I do not anticipate price reductions in the near future, barring the usual "deal of the day" sales that STS implements.

Elixir usage is now closely tied to the quality of player and the declining quality that we have to contend with as a community. It's no surprise that given how widely elixirs are used, that there are people who have adapted entirely to them, and who rely on elixir users to carry them. The number of players that can function effectively as a group or in a pug without elixirs is on the decline and will continue to decline for the forseeable future.

Many players who have become wealthy in PL have essentially paid real money for PL gold indirectly - elixirs for farming and rapid dungeon runs to make money. Others use it to supplement their income that they gain primarily from merchanting.

Lets just put it this way - when the Alien Oasis and the Sewers were endgame content people never imagined a world where player skill would decline further than the Mynas Generation or the Power Level Generation. Welcome to the era of the Elixir Generation.


I am not going to comment on the cost of vanity items, pets, etc. They do not impact gameplay in terms of balance. I am actually quite supportive that STS has implemented things such as 500 platinum vanity hats - it is a good way for high spenders to subsidize lower platinum spenders.

[WhoIsThis]

Solutions?

Well to begin with, for a solution to exist, there has to be an acknowledgement of a problem.

On STS side, I cannot imagine that they will view the increased elixir use as a "problem" but rather something to be welcomed. On that note, we can expect to see more and more incentives (such as Vinnie the Vendor) attempting to advertise the benefits of elixirs. I think that for the forseeable future, PvE will remain an elixir-fest. Expect more "deals of the day", highly priced vanity items, and the like.

I can also see more aggressive monetization in the foreseeable future -an example is that the Humania Monster Bash versus say, the era of Alien Oasis III Victory Lap. Other things that we see that are free today, that many players take for granted may someday cost platinum.

At this time, I cannot comment on whether there will be more "elite dungeons" such as Monster Mash setting a new precedent. Whether future equivalents drop superior gear remains to be seen, although I cannot imagine that the gear will be much better, for fear of breaking game balance (although admittedly, the game is not balanced at the endgame at time of this writing).



PvP by contrast could be balanced relatively easily.

- First, the forgotten weapons. They need to be nerfed so that they are comparable or perhaps slightly inferior to similar weapons of their level range. That would turn them from a negative addition to a positive addition to twinking (and indeed PvE as it will now need more skill) because it brings more choices for gearing.

- Dodge as a stat needs a thorough reduction. Ever since the 61 cap, things have gone a bit crazy with the stats. I will put together a thread detailing what I think will lead to better balance if there is enough demand for it. (Please indicate below).

- All of the Angel and 70 sets need a thorough rebalance. Gear has trumped skill because it's such a big gap over even the crafted 66 sets.

Interestingly enough, re-balancing PvP would probably lead to (in a non-elixir world) a better PvE balance as well, along with gear that is more consistent with the official lore.

[WhoIsThis]

Concluding Remarks and the Big Picture

Throughout all of this, one thing that many newer players have noted is that the oldies whenever they see changes that they do not like tend to be the most vocal about them. The reason why is because we oldies - many of us dating back to 2010 feel that we have more to lose than anybody else if this game does not succeed. We've invested more time, in many cases more money, and are in it for the long haul versus newer players which are often transitory in their game choices.

You might think that STS is benefiting immensely from the aggressive monetization of PL. In the short run, that is indisputably true. STS has undoubtedly seen it's revenues increase immensely from all of the platinum sales. But in the long run ... it's not so clear.

PL gave STS one very big and unique advantage. First mover in a market that in 2010, was largely unproven. The mobile MMO market. It could very well be one with immense potential. It is too early to tell. But noteworthy to me is that games like Everquest or Camelot were not the defining game of this genre. The defining MMO is World of Warcraft, a game that came later and was heavily influenced by it's earlier fellow MMOs. WoW today is so dominant in the MMO arena that it is the MMO that has elements that other MMOs copy ideas from.

And that is what PL could have become. It still might. Or it might not. Remember WoW was not the first MMO. And Blizzard not the first studio. But they were the ones that truly popularized MMOs and made fistloads of cash over it.

Will PL be that game for the mobile space? It's too soon to tell. But there are two signs that are very discouraging. First, it's that the game was monetized in a way that a person can "buy" their way through the game. I note that today in WoW you cannot pay Blizzard for say, skill in PvP or heroic progression. It's earned. That could a powerful and perhaps fatal flaw in truly popularizing PL.

The other is the lack of focus that STS seems to have. Notice that the gaming studios that make the games that are truly awesome, like Blizzard and Valve - they don't release that many games. They release games infrequently. They take their time to develop. If there's a bug, usually it means pushing back the release date, rather than exposing their fans to beta-quality software. STS has released PL, SL, DL, and soon to be AL. For a company of this size, that's quite something. Rather than focusing down on one game (PL) and making it truly awesome, it's very much a quantity over quality strategy. It's interesting really. Whenever I speak with devs of small studios and ask them why they are not releasing a WoW-like game, they tell me that it's not that they would not like to, it's that they do not have the resources to match Blizzard. Perhaps it's a reasonable excuse. But what matters for a company is what they do with the limited resources that they do have at hand.

I think I know why. Read this article:
http://syncaine.com/2012/01/26/preying-on-the-weak/

Most of the platinum heavy spenders of PL resemble the player described in that article. The sheer number of games means that STS can continue to collect revenues even after said player become bored of PL (which will happen much faster than had the players taken to become skilled). In the short run, it has generated a lot of revenue for STS. But it does give me pause and make me wonder in the long term, STS may have forfeited something much greater.


In 2010 and for much of early 2011, I genuinely believed that PL would be THE game that defined the mobile space. I thought that the developers were engaged with their fans and frequently interacted with them. The disappointment of Nuri's Hallows and later Mount Fang though, combined with the increasingly hostile stance that STS took towards what was constructive feedback though changed my views in a very short period of time. Not to mention, there was an increasingly sense of disconnect between what their oldest and most vocal supporters wanted and what actually happened. Talk is always cheap. Actions matter.

I left for WoW. In January of 2012, I took a moment to engage in some self-reflection. I realized something - I viewed my time in PL as a sunk cost. I decided to look for a new MMO. I chose, after discussing the matter with several people (including a former GoA) WoW. To me, it was simple. Comparing WoW and PL is very much apples to apples. Let's think about this. Like you, I have a limited amount of time, a limited amount of money (in terms of how much I want to spend on entertainment, I budget myself around $2,000 a year, including both my hardware and software purchases, which makes me an attractive target for game studios), and I have to ask myself - why do I play computer games? What do I get out of it? What am I looking for? For me personally, after thinking carefully about it, I realized that WoW fit my needs far better than PL did.

You too should carefully look at yourself and engage in self-reflection. You may find that PL is THE game that you want to play. Or you may not. I don't know. I can't comment on your personal situation. (You probably will find PL to be your game truth be told ... or else, why are you here reading my post on PL?) But let's just say this. F2P games are built on impulse purchases. Your much more likely to find the negative consequences of any decision that you make, whether in a game or in real life much more bearable if you've carefully thought out the consequences of your decisions. Carefully consider your future purchases, how you spend your time in PL in the future. You'll find that with that, you're going to have much less regretting down the road.

So what does this have to with anything? The answer is that how attractive PL as a game is to you and your capacity to enjoy your time spent on PL is limited by how good a game STS can deliver. As is mine. And if you don't agree with STS decisions ... what are you going to do about it? You know what I did. I chose to speak out, to risk moderation. If nothing else, let me ask you this. If you agree with everything that STS has done to this game, then we're through. You can go back to being a passive T2 or T3 player. But if you don't ... what will you do about it?

I believe that PL has the potential to be one of the defining games of the MMO genre in the years to come. I would like to see it succeed. I would like to see STS succeed. However, I cannot ignore the overwhelming evidence that this game might not be that outstanding game that I thought it would become, the game that would define mobile MMOs.












Note: When I originally made this, I never really intended for this to be a thread that was going to be posted ... idk ... sometimes I just write on a computer (or paper) to put down my thoughts and put them into something cohesive. Hopefully this has been presented in a readable format.

On that note, combined with my real life issues, it's also the reason why I'm rather reluctant to invest a lot of time into this game; it just doesn't hold the charm it once did over me for the reasons described above.

[WhoIsThis]

Reserved in case I have anything else to add.

[Patricks]

Maybe youre right.....

Can you elaborate?

[Thelastblink]

Spot on with every single one..... Getting ticked off at how I sometimes get one shotted by a dex bird.... Especially pvp part, it requires no skill...... Also caused everyone to rush:) ( Im a rusher, LOL!) But the fact that everyone is either holding a bow or staff is so awkward.... Pvp is not the same anymore, I dont have the surge of excitement, it seems all I do is drain ice fire to get the kill, Bears do beckon stomp and birds use two or even at times one shot to kill an enemy:( Sts, please fix this, I suggest the new forogotten items get nerfed , maybe to be only in use in PVE cos that will make the situation happy for everyone! And to stop people raging cos of the plat they wasted to reset their stats could you guys like do a free plat thing for changing stats? I remember a long time ago you guys did that for the skills. Please sts?:(

[WhoIsThis]

Can you elaborate?

Elaborate on what? If you want answers, you've got to be specific.

[Hadesofshadow]

twinking is fine although it appears kiting is new to you

str sets are not

lv55 warbirds can beat lv60+ mages because of the armor&dodge

and lol, in the beginning of the game (lets call this ao2 cap)

people would make a toon, go to mynas tombs hit 45 and pvp

my bird has never completed and dungeon set

[HunterSLAYER]

I've read part of your thread, at least until the Twinking part i must say there are many things that are broken in the game.

However, fixing those "broken" things may only lead to other issues.
Like the forgotten weapons for e.g.(not going to elaborate as most of you probably knew about i already.)


*Hopefully i can finish reading your epic thread by today :P

Sent from my Xperia S using Xparent ICS Blue Tapatalk 2

[WhoIsThis]

twinking is fine although it appears kiting is new to you


I am quite aware of what kiting is and how to kite effectively. Is is the act of keeping the enemy either out of melee distance or a ranged attack (different weapons have different ranges). I am interested to know though, what makes you think I am unaware of what kiting is?

Here though is a more in depth analysis (WoW-oriented, but relevant for PL).

http://www.wowwiki.com/Kiting

Unfortunately, the forgotten sets are so powerful that they can kill in 2 hits as a ranged weapon. That makes kiting much less effective.



and lol, in the beginning of the game (lets call this ao2 cap)

people would make a toon, go to mynas tombs hit 45 and pvp


This game has been around since before Alien Oasis. I would think that by your join date, you would be aware of that. Twinking at levels lower than 45 does exist. You just destroyed your credibility right there when you asserted that it did not.

[WhoIsThis]

However, fixing those "broken" things may only lead to other issues.
Like the forgotten weapons for e.g.(not going to elaborate as most of you probably knew about i already.)2

Balance is always relative. What matters though is that a very skilled player can defeat a skilled player of another class and that no set of gear, or specific build is so dominant above all the others that it cannot be compensated for by skill.

[HunterSLAYER]

Balance is always relative. What matters though is that a very skilled player can defeat a skilled player of another class and that no set of gear, or specific build is so dominant above all the others that it cannot be compensated for by skill.

That is absolutely right, unless the whiny player is not skilful or pvp less.

:)

Sent from my Xperia S using Xparent ICS Blue Tapatalk 2

[Everyone'sFavMage]

I agree. And I have always respected you and your posts. I always look forward to threads made by you because I can count on there being useful and desperately needed information in them.

Pvp just seems like a luck game now which it never used to be. So I started twinking in ao3-61 as those levels were for me the high light of this game. And now with forgotten weapons it ruins it. Sts doesn't need to do a whole lot, they just need to listen to their community.
Pvp is all luck, there is no skill anymore. And that was the one and ONLY reason I played this game. During sewer cap I found myself addicted, playing perhaps a bit too much a day. And now I hardly find the desire to log on. Sts needs to read this thread and seriously consider the amount of players they are going to lose if they don't change things FAST...
So thank you, elf, for making yet another extremely worth while thread. And to the devs, you better turn this game around or you are going to lose A WHOLE BUNCH of players in the nxt few months.

Sincerely,
EFM

[WhoIsThis]

Pvp just seems like a luck game now which it never used to be. So I started twinking in ao3-61 as those levels were for me the high light of this game. And now with forgotten weapons it ruins it. Sts doesn't need to do a whole lot, they just need to listen to their community. Pvp is all luck, there is no skill anymore. And that was the one and ONLY reason I played this game. During sewer cap I found myself addicted, playing perhaps a bit too much a day. And now I hardly find the desire to log on.

That is very much the consequence of dodge. It's negated the ability to put any reasonable PvP combo.

And yes, many people here play for the PvP ... and perhaps for their friends.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

That is very much the consequence of dodge. It's negated the ability to put any reasonable PvP combo.

And yes, many people here play for the PvP ... and perhaps for their friends.

Yes it's a dodge based game now, I hate too see this game go down the gutters because I have fond memories of it. But with developer team ming so many mistakes, and the community quality declining at the rate it is, I feel I may have to make an exit.

[Jcyee]

Thanks for posting this. Hope the devs will actually read this and consider everything u suggested/mentioned.

[WhoIsThis]

Yes it's a dodge based game now, I hate too see this game go down the gutters because I have fond memories of it. But with developer team ming so many mistakes, and the community quality declining at the rate it is, I feel I may have to make an exit.


You should never feel compelled to play. This is a game not a job. (Edit: Well unless you're a dev; then it is a job - but if you are, then you probably look forward to going to work).

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Hopefully they will consider some of your ideas, and Im not saying they are only your ideas. I can also attest that this is generally what the ENTIRE community wants...

[TANKKAAR]

WOW Bro! Just Wow! I do truly miss your posts on this forum for they are always not only a stimulating and intellectual read but offer so must insight around matters that so few understand or can articulate to such a degree.


While I fully agree with all of your talking points I will only reply to one. That dodge has reached critical mass in terms of ruining PVP at endgame and STS should adapt a more appropriate manner of defense such as what is seen in other MMOs. By simply (and I say simply even though it may require an entire game overhaul) reducing the amount of dodge (NOT REMOVING) to a more realistic amount (because there should always remain a chance for dodging or missing as in real life) and increasing the amounts of armor for example, It would better balance PVP and PVE while requiring and bringing more skill and a lot less luck to the game. IMO even making that single change would have a huge impact to all levels in terms of balance.

[Cobraguy]

I'd like to point out that everything you've posted is spot on for me as well. Even with all the new content being released recently, I'm seriously getting tired of the game again. I took a break a bit after 61 cap was released, only to come back and find the game in even more dismay than when I left it. Scatter bears, elixired images that won't backtrack a few steps to revive, thrasher only games that even people I called friends were reluctant to have me there because I wasn't potted, and the hoards of nooblet merchants spamming their ''Buying for 50% off CS'' postings.

IMO, the sewer cap was by far the best days of PL. Those were the days when 85% of players were worth a dam, not these days when only about 15% are. I've always felt strongly that elixirs have killed this game. Its their game and they can see fit how to make it, but I for one am not as happy as I once was. I know its just a game, but its sad to see something I really enjoyed going down the drain like this. I've made some good friends in the community, and every time someone leaves because they just can't take the BS anymore, it makes the game suck that much more.

The end of days in PL is near if something isn't done. That's my honest opinion.

[TANKKAAR]

Pvp from my point of view (Lvl.61 Warbird)
Vs. str bear: you have to dodge beckon/stomp (usually quite easy with 29 dodge unbuffed, and 59 buffed..)
Vs. dex bear: get close and pray you combo hits
Vs. str bird: pray your roots hit
Vs. dex bird: pray for dodge and hit %
Vs. int mage: ...just run for you life
Vs. dex mage: break shield (don't miss!) and combo

56 Warbird (if it's different)
Vs. int/str anything: don't run out of mana
Vs. mage: don't be afraid of being nuked as much, but your mana dies again

Int birds/bears and str mages aren't included due to rarity.

Str mages are far from rare :P

But yes all pvp has become is LUCK.

[LwMark]

I'd like to point out that everything you've posted is spot on for me as well. Even with all the new content being released recently, I'm seriously getting tired of the game again. I took a break a bit after 61 cap was released, only to come back and find the game in even more dismay than when I left it. Scatter bears, elixired images that won't backtrack a few steps to revive, thrasher only games that even people I called friends were reluctant to have me there because I wasn't potted, and the hoards of nooblet merchants spamming their ''Buying for 50% off CS'' postings.

IMO, the sewer cap was by far the best days of PL. Those were the days when 85% of players were worth a dam, not these days when only about 15% are. I've always felt strongly that elixirs have killed this game. Its their game and they can see fit how to make it, but I for one am not as happy as I once was. I know its just a game, but its sad to see something I really enjoyed going down the drain like this. I've made some good friends in the community, and every time someone leaves because they just can't take the BS anymore, it makes the game suck that much more.

The end of days in PL is near if something isn't done. That's my honest opinion.

L100 cap = Doomsday map

[Hadesofshadow]

Pvp from my point of view (Lvl.61 Warbird)
Vs. str bear: you have to dodge beckon/stomp (usually quite easy with 29 dodge unbuffed, and 59 buffed..)
Vs. dex bear: get close and pray you combo hits
Vs. str bird: pray your roots hit
Vs. dex bird: pray for dodge and hit %
Vs. int mage: ...just run for you life
Vs. dex mage: break shield (don't miss!) and combo

56 Warbird (if it's different)
Vs. int/str anything: don't run out of mana
Vs. mage: don't be afraid of being nuked as much, but your mana dies again

Int birds/bears and str mages aren't included due to rarity.

dex lv61 mages which have near 100% crit can

drain>fire>gf

[xcainnblecterx]

Thanks for this post i have to agree,even though im not one that has played for the whole time pl has been around and only joined april this year iam one that enjoyed learning my class and skill in fact i didnt use a singal elixer (except dailys) tell i hit 65. I enjoyed every moment of it and had fun with the community. Iam also one who enjoys the experimenting of builds for pvp and pve and i have been more criticized for it then encouraged including on forums, that is the main reason i wanted to start twinking because it did require skill as in what certain stats were better, how many skill points you would put in certain skills and what skills work best made it all the more fun to figure out a good build. The problem is some of the fellow players being negative and always having something negative to say especially in pvp i can hardly go one match without someone joining and being a negative nancy calling people noobs and putting them down. I wish i was around back when pl first started as you say the community then was welcoming and helpful of eachother, because thats how we should be and accept someone may be doing something diffrent, offer constructive feed back, point out what works Better then other things. Now all i see is these bad players that make the community seem worse then it is and turn pvp into garbage also. I cant even really twink pvp because im not a professional and therefore i guess it gives people a right to rush/team up on me and be called garbage, a dog, a noob, that im worthless. Is this really how pvp is supposed to be? Because i know of someone likes what i do or needs help im more then willing to give advice. On the pve accept i personally like sewers the best as some bosses require strategy. there is side paths to optional areas, the gear is balanced etc. Ive heard 51-56 is also the most balanced for pvp so iam making a 51 bird to see. Im really glad i took the time to read this thread as i have learned a few new things like how much the forgotten weapons have affected the twinks and im sorry to fellow forumers that do have twinks to stop complaining. I was not aware some are that passionate about pvping. I just know i want to see a better community in general, better people to run with instead of the ones hopped up on thrashers or power leveled and dont really understand their skills or the rolls their class plays, that do teach the one willing to learn about their skills and their roll in a party. I have been asked a couple times to train a some of those and iam glad there is still some willing to learn. Thanks alot for this thread i understand my fellow players a little better now

[Hadesofshadow]

I'm unbuffed, but standing there innocently and a mage (unbuffed too O.o), who is lvl55/56 with MM set does fire, and hits 702 crit (I died using bow, one-hit-KO X.X)

thats impossible btw

[gundamsone]

What a thread O_o

Gj keep it up!

[kallima]

Insightful, engaging and thoughtful as always. I have always taken the time to read and reread your posts, as the critiques and suggested solutions are constructive and if ever heeded, conducive to a win-win outcome for both STS and its player base.

Enjoy WOW and know that your posts are refreshing and a breath of fresh air. I agree with almost all your points that are relevant to my gaming experience and this is coming from a player that has always been T2. - Cheers!

[Thelastblink]

TO get this straight the forgotten items are OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT DOUBT OP and ruins ALL OF PVP, MAJORITY OF IT! And it seems people think, "if its so good just use it"..... NO! We play this game cos we have passion, it had something in it to make us play, Its very unlikely ill play this game again if all I do is 1-2 hit somebody or get 1-2 hitted.... But MOST of the people who are against the complainers are normally PVE'rs, well these forgotten items would OBVIOUSLY be like heaven for them.... So I say why dont they make them only accessible in PVE, not PVP, so both sides are HAPPY! AAAAND so people who spent a lot of time and platinum for it dont get ticked off.. Even so, I dont think it will solve the problem as most people do PVE, not PVP...D: which means the twinking items still wont sell as good and may still decrease in price..... *sigh* I agree with whoisthis 100 percent:) Thnx!

[Wyvern]

Best thread I have read as of today. You're just about there with everything imo. You've obviously put a pot of work into this. Excellent read!

[Yich]

Glad such an intelligent person agrees the forgotten weapons should be nerfed... If anyone says they shouldnt be nerfed ill post a link here and a link to samhayne saying they are pretty OP.

[cookiez]

Endgame PvP Situation

The PvP situation is somewhat more complicated. The reason is because we have several tiers of PvP, each with different equipment, different relative class strengths/weaknesses, and different tactics.



Endgame PvP is now a dodge-based or luck-based game. That is a far bigger criticism that I make it sound. The rewards for being skilled and experienced at playing your class and build are far smaller than ever before. For an MMO to succeed, fundamentally, you need to have a game where there’s an incentive to be skilled, where there’s an incentive to keep playing until you build that degree of skill that you need to perform.



For players that have been around for a long time, I want to draw your attention to the decreasing number of new player questions. It used to be that new players would start PvP thinking that they would “try” something new, get owned, and in a few cases, post for help on the forums. The players that were committed, that wanted to do better would try and learn and in time, make progress. The ones that were not would usually quit PvP, hide their PvP stats on their toons, and run around saying that PvP required “no skill”, when in reality, it was a whole different game from PvE and one with a learning curve that they did not have the patience to do. Those types of threads are now mostly gone. The reason why is because endgame PvP is not skill based anymore – it’s luck based. To be fair, there has always been an element of luck in PvP, but never to the extent that it is today – where it has dominated over skill and experience.



The reason for this is one stat – dodge for all 3 classes. Dodge has increased across the board. Let’s examine the effect on the core classes:



Dex birds – well let’s just say that if you are fighting another dex bird, it’s all in the dodge now. If they dodge you and you don’t, you’re dead. If it’s the opposite – you’ll own that fight. If both players dodge, expect a long match (isn’t dex bird vs dex bird supposed to be a fast fight?).



Int mage – int mages are supposed to have high dodge? Umm … what happened to the idea of glass cannon staff mages and high armor, low dodge wand mages? The cannon is there, assuming (very BIG and IMPROBABLE assumption) that they hit. But why do mages have the kind of dodge that they have? Oh, and why isn’t the staff at least 20% more potent than the wand/bracer set given the massive loss in survivability?



Str bear – strength sets, perhaps more so than anything else have broken end game PvP. It is possible to get in excess of 83% dodge with a strength set. Consider the implications. That means that 5 out of 6 shots at a fully buffed bear (or warbird) will be dodged (assuming you aren’t hit debuffed in which case it will be even smaller). Among the shots that get through … they won’t be doing that much damage with iron blood up for bears.



It ruins the possibility as well of any logical combo. Let me illustrate why. Suppose you are a bird trying to set up a cruel blast. First, your chances that your Shattering Scream will hit are 17% (1 in 6) and your chances that your Blast Shot will also hit are 17% (1 in 6). What does this mean about the chances that your combo will hit? That’s 1 in 36 or 2.78%. Actually, statistically you’re far safer in betting that both attacks will miss – 25 out of 36 times (69.44%), they will.



Pretty much with dodge so high, it becomes a game of praying that your attacks hit. This may be attractive to new players at the beginning, but for skilled players – what incentive is there to become skilled at PvP?



These high dodge sets aren’t a good idea for PvE either. It’s been noted that pure int mage and pure dex bird in the hands of skilled players work in PvE and lead to very rapid runs. With pure str bear … it doesn’t work; you need hit or your beckons won’t hit. Bears are more or less forced to use dex as a secondary stat by default (or perhaps int as it also provides some hit).



The other is that there are now 7 points in buffs. Consider the implications – suppose you are an int mage. Your blessings now gives you +70% crit, +35 damage when fully buffed and a ton of armor, plus a mana shield. Admittedly, the +70% crit is now of questionable value since 100% is the crit cap, but try fighting a fully buffed player unbuffed. Similar things could be said about birds. (Str sets are different because the dodge is so high that luck is predominant in determining outcomes here, which is again problematic). More so than ever before, if you are buffed and fighting unbuffed, skill doesn’t matter – you’ll own.



This is also a problem in PvE, although not to the same extent. Assuming you have no elixirs – you can safely get in front with buffs on, but the minute you have buffs down, you’re target practice. With elixirs, buffed, things just melt away in front of you, while unbuffed … it’s somewhat slower but still quite rapid.



Regardless, PvP at the endgame is in need of a serious rework in order for skill to become the deciding factor again.


Totally agree. I would love to cap my 70 bear, but I don't have $200 to spend and I also don't have 200 hours to waste either. I really think it's messed up...

[YYZ????]

Great Post! It rings true on many if not all points.

I have been actively playing 1 month shy of 2 years, and have never left for more than a few days.


The skill decline to me is saddest evolution of the game. Elixir's hide poor skill, and delay skill attainment. If you just nuke everything and do not have to worry about dying, what is there to learn?


The most skilled teams to me were when Shadow Caves came out and we were mostly all lvl 50, non-elixired. You could join a PUG and if the right classes were in the group you had a chance. When the Shadow Cave achievement came out, People were going back there at lvl 65 and having problems! Overall lack of teamwork and skill have greatly declined.


Can skill be brought back into the game? Hard to tell with elixirs so prevalent, but with the right game mechanics I think it can. Think of Fragx. You needed a bird to hit blast to break his armor. What if a new boss needed to be debuffed by a mage, blasted by a bird, and taunted by a bear to be beaten. This would bring together all classes and believe me, If the boss brought along decent drops the players would figure it out asap!

[Roberto077]

I say elixirs are for people who dont know how to play the game right. Also the dodge based game is so lame.

[Register]

Wow Who! Your extremely long posts are pretty awesome :D
I agree with everything (That I can remember) you said. You've outdone yourself, again.

[XghostzX]

Who, you are an idol and a leader. Surely if the devs don't look into this, I won't know what else to do.

I'm glad the community has someone like. I would type more, but i read everything over mobile.

You're simply a saint. Thank you.

[tHelonestud]

all very true

[MightyMicah]

I read every single word of this thread carefully through from start to finish. I must say I agree with just about everything except a few points made in the pvp twinking section. Also, you mentioned that the new forgotten weapons destroyed pvp for twinkers. Then later you mentioned that these new weapons changed pvp for everyone. Which one is it? Destroyed? Or changed?

The part that stood out the most for me was the idea of quitting PL. I've always felt obligated to play because I spent a fair amount of money on this game. But, recently my PL world got kind of rocked. Two years down the drain and I'm not entirely certain what to do now. I suppose I may quit. I really don't think PL is the game for me, but at the same time, I'm not sure if Ill be able to find a game that is. Hmm. Good thoughts!

[WhoIsThis]

I read every single word of this thread carefully through from start to finish. I must say I agree with just about everything except a few points made in the pvp twinking section. Also, you mentioned that the new forgotten weapons destroyed pvp for twinkers. Then later you mentioned that these new weapons changed pvp for everyone. Which one is it? Destroyed? Or changed?

Both. For some people destroyed. For others - changed. It really depends on the person and how they view twinking. For people that loved experimentation and variety, destroyed. For others that like consistency, changed, although even then, perhaps not for the better as gear/luck > skill.



The part that stood out the most for me was the idea of quitting PL. I've always felt obligated to play because I spent a fair amount of money on this game. But, recently my PL world got kind of rocked. Two years down the drain and I'm not entirely certain what to do now. I suppose I may quit. I really don't think PL is the game for me, but at the same time, I'm not sure if Ill be able to find a game that is. Hmm. Good thoughts!

There are a lot of MMOs out there competing for time and money. My advice is try a few. See what you like and don't like. You may find PL is your home. Or you might not. You won't know until you try several other titles.

[WhoIsThis]

Great Post! It rings true on many if not all points.

I have been actively playing 1 month shy of 2 years, and have never left for more than a few days.


The skill decline to me is saddest evolution of the game. Elixir's hide poor skill, and delay skill attainment. If you just nuke everything and do not have to worry about dying, what is there to learn?


The thing is ... there's no incentive for STS to reduce elixir usage. If anything, there is every incentive for them to increase it.


It is possible for STS to make a boss where elixirs would not present a huge advantage. Such a boss would be one that tested the groups understanding of game and boss mechanics, where the superior dps, survivability, and movement speed did not represent a huge advantage. But such a boss would require a committed playerbase that was willing to endure wipes, learn from their mistakes, and keep going. That combined with the fact that such a boss would reduce platinum sales makes it unlikely.

[Nihiliste]

Great thread. Be glad I brought you back to PL. ;)

[WhoIsThis]

Can skill be brought back into the game? Hard to tell with elixirs so prevalent, but with the right game mechanics I think it can. Think of Fragx. You needed a bird to hit blast to break his armor. What if a new boss needed to be debuffed by a mage, blasted by a bird, and taunted by a bear to be beaten. This would bring together all classes and believe me, If the boss brought along decent drops the players would figure it out asap!

It's an interesting idea. But it would also require ideal 5 man composition, which may not always be the case and 3 players, 1 of each class to be very well coordinated with each other.

That said, I support it, but realistically in a casual game, it's probably not going to happen unless PL begins the equivalent of raids.

[tHelonestud]

I read every single word of this thread carefully through from start to finish. I must say I agree with just about everything except a few points made in the pvp twinking section. Also, you mentioned that the new forgotten weapons destroyed pvp for twinkers. Then later you mentioned that these new weapons changed pvp for everyone. Which one is it? Destroyed? Or changed?

The part that stood out the most for me was the idea of quitting PL. I've always felt obligated to play because I spent a fair amount of money on this game. But, recently my PL world got kind of rocked. Two years down the drain and I'm not entirely certain what to do now. I suppose I may quit. I really don't think PL is the game for me, but at the same time, I'm not sure if Ill be able to find a game that is. Hmm. Good thoughts!
destruction is basically an extreme change
say i go and destroy the moon, the night sky is changed right?

[MightyMicah]

Both. For some people destroyed. For others - changed. It really depends on the person and how they view twinking. For people that loved experimentation and variety, destroyed. For others that like consistency, changed, although even then, perhaps not for the better as gear/luck > skill.

There are a lot of MMOs out there competing for time and money. My advice is try a few. See what you like and don't like. You may find PL is your home. Or you might not. You won't know until you try several other titles.

Ah that makes much more sense. And I've been trying Dark Legends, which I'm liking 10x better than PL. I'll be trying Swtor soon. Not sure how that will go.

[WhoIsThis]

Ah that makes much more sense. And I've been trying Dark Legends, which I'm liking 10x better than PL. I'll be trying Swtor soon. Not sure how that will go.

SWTOR is currently in decline and losing subscribers fast. Idk if that's a game I'd recommend. Given EA's history, I would not be surprised if they elect to shutdown the servers once it reaches a critical point.

Among the PC games, WoW, LOTRO, Rift, Guild Wars 2 are all highly recommended.

[Frealaf]

Just started pocket legends last week after only just finding out you could play MMO's on android! Don't have a PC to play games on anymore, though used to play WoW and EVE online lots.

This thread has just put me off sticking with PL though!

[WhoIsThis]

Just started pocket legends last week after only just finding out you could play MMO's on android! Don't have a PC to play games on anymore, though used to play WoW and EVE online lots.

This thread has just put me off sticking with PL though!

As a game, PL is much less hardcore. The mechanics are simplified, the playerbase is much younger, and there is far less content. It's also based on micropayments rather than subscriptions.

It's hard to tell if you'll like it or not. But for me, it wasn't the game that it once was ... I'll say that much.

[Pimpslide]

Hey Who,
Dude, dude, dude. I heard Yvonnel is also playing WoW, so first of all, say hallo to him for me.

Also, my gosh. You put a lot of time and effort in this thread, holy cow.

You really nailed it on the head today, and I hope STS takes this into account. :D

P.S. After this post, I remembered to finally email you once in a while, lol.

[MightyMicah]

SWTOR is currently in decline and losing subscribers fast. Idk if that's a game I'd recommend. Given EA's history, I would not be surprised if they elect to shutdown the servers once it reaches a critical point.

Among the PC games, WoW, LOTRO, Rift, Guild Wars 2 are all highly recommended.

I wouldn't say they're in too much decline. The game is still very very young and they are going free to play soon. That's the main reasons for so much rage quitting and general dropping off the subscriptions.

[Kaarataka]

Hi Elf,

I recently came back to see what was going on in the end-game ctf world of PL. I noticed a huge reaction to me hiding behind my set, that pally's were so overpowered that I was suppose to win. That kinda caught me off guard since I remember pallys always being the tank that could rev and carry a flag to score. I never considered pally a viable option for beating int mages since int has more dmg and mana regen. This wasn't just one occurrence either although they were names I did not recognize.

The biggest issue besides balance/dodge is the negative range one receives due to moving backwards. Basically if you are moving away from a target you get a -2m (i believe its 2m but maybe more or less) in range. This has completely killed kiting for anyone with 12m+ skills/weapons. Even if dodge is corrected, dodge/armor will still have a massive advantage due to ranged classes not being able to kite. I was told that STS was responding to the weaker (noobs) players complaining about kiters. Did STS even bother asking what the majority of the pro pvper base thought about the ability to kite? I'm of the mindset they only listened to the whiners and didn't do an active study on what we pros think about kiting. Kiting takes skill and every class has the ability to counter it just like every class can counter countless other strategies.

The weak will continue to complain that they are weak in pvp/ctf. The only way to get strong is to die a lot and learn from those deaths. It seems STS doesn't agree and believes the playing field should be leveled to the point where everyone is equal regardless of time invested in learning ones craft.

Thanks for your time
Kaarataka

[Pimpslide]

The weak will continue to complain that they are weak in pvp/ctf. The only way to get strong is to die a lot and learn from those deaths. It seems STS doesn't agree and believes the playing field should be leveled to the point where everyone is equal regardless of time invested in learning ones craft.

Thanks for your time
Kaarataka

Wow, exactly.
I really have been trying to express that to people, I just couldnt find the words. Thanks!

[MightyMicah]

The weak will continue to complain that they are weak in pvp/ctf. The only way to get strong is to die a lot and learn from those deaths. It seems STS doesn't agree and believes the playing field should be leveled to the point where everyone is equal regardless of time invested in learning ones craft.

mmm mmm. Hit the nail right on the head with that one. Though I don't see too much how it related to this thread lol...ofc it is a broad topic thread.

[WhoIsThis]

The weak will continue to complain that they are weak in pvp/ctf. The only way to get strong is to die a lot and learn from those deaths. It seems STS doesn't agree and believes the playing field should be leveled to the point where everyone is equal regardless of time invested in learning ones craft.
Kaarataka

Indeed.

For a game like this to be worth playing, it should take time to build up skill. Those that don't want to ... there are social games on Facebook that should appeal to that type of player. But this is an MMO and it should be something not easy to do, even for mobile where the mechanics are simplified.

[XghostzX]

It's somewhat sad to say, it's the community that's been keeping me going in this game. At first, I liked how PL was, but then I later discovered (which was many, many months ago) that this is a very light, and casual MMO. The system is only even mores simplified, and as you have said before Who, it comes down to luck, money, and now equality for everyone. I can't put my skill into PvP as I used to be able to. (This includes glitches, but the main issue was when the user interface was changed the day Humania was released. That's when the bugs started to roll in.)

Don't fix what isn't broken. Improvement is always needed, but PL was fine the way it was before. There were many other basic PL needs that STS in my opinion could have worked on instead. I feel like we're back at the basics: simple game mechanics.

[WhoIsThis]

It's somewhat sad to say, it's the community that's been keeping me going in this game. At first, I liked how PL was, but then I later discovered (which was many, many months ago) that this is a very light, and casual MMO. The system is only even mores simplified, and as you have said before Who, it comes down to luck, money, and now equality for everyone. I can't put my skill into PvP as I used to be able to. (This includes glitches, but the main issue was when the user interface was changed the day Humania was released. That's when the bugs started to roll in.)

Don't fix what isn't broken. Improvement is always needed, but PL was fine the way it was before. There were many other basic PL needs that STS in my opinion could have worked on instead. I feel like we're back at the basics: simple game mechanics.

I'm gonna say this up front. It's not something that a lot of people are going to want to here, but most players here, if they played a PC MMO, would not get very far. Getting far in a PC game requires commitment, persistence, patience, and luck. The skill cap is much higher and stakes are much higher in such games in a PC game.

Your previous experience won't be a huge advantage because the skill cap has been reduced and the rewards are much lower for experience. But it is who STS is appealing to - casuals they see it as their future, and not in players like you or me.

[Griffinfan]

You sir, deserve a sticky, This has just blown the doors open on everything I have been thinking but have not been able to put into words, The STS devs seem to mean well, giving everyone a chance at fair gameplay and equal levels, but that unfortunately isnt real life. Some people are better as some things then others (old days PvP for example) and STS has changed the skill and mechanics to who has the best combination of sets/rings etc.. Thanks so much for putting your time in to this, this deserves a look from the devs..

[JaytB]

Twinking PvP situation
The reason why PvP has always exerted a high influence is because of the percentage of high platinum spenders that are PvPers. Let’s consider the following. In any F2P MMO, only about 5-7% of the population is actually paying. The rest are really “F2P” and don’t spend much (if any) money. Among those 5-7%, again, only a percentage are high spenders. The reason why PvP has such a high influence is because from a company’s perspective, the only thing that matters is those 5-7%. The 93-95% are just server bandwidth – their only use is their potential to bring in new players and to make the game more enjoyable for those 5-7%. But among those 5-7% and within those the high spenders, a very high percentage of players are very regular PvPers and that is why PvP has the influence that it does.

You might know twinking, but you obviously have no clue on the spending habbits of PvE. Maybe it's because you're more of a pvp person instead of a pve one.

The way I see it, is that twinks only spend platinum to lvl their chars and then enjoy the f2p experience in form of twinking.

Real hardcore farmers use elix almost on a 24/7 basis, spend plat on payed dungeons and elixers like classy looter and shamrock. I'm basing myself on the 100's of active players within my and other (non-pvp) guilds, which seems like a much higher sample rate than the few PvP guilds with limited members.

The percentages you name here, are nothing more than simple guesswork that you made up based on your own experiences (ie twinking) and in no way represent the real plat spending habbits of people that don't PvP. I mean, how could it be anything else than numbers you just made up? Do you have access to STS's database of plat spending? I think not.

I understand you want to get your point accross, but I utterly disagree with your attempt to skew the numbers in your favor.

For PvE, those new weapons are just wonderful to play with, and so far STS doesn't seem to want to nerf them any further than increasing their base stat requirement. Maybe they did this because it's actually the PvE players that bring in way more money than the lot of PvP players in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame here, but it's just too obvious that only the PvP'ers are complaining here. From a PvE perspective, I love the new weapons and sincerely hope STS doesn't change a thing about them.

[Yich]

You might know twinking, but you obviously have no clue on the spending habbits of PvE. Maybe it's because you're more of a pvp person instead of a pve one.

The way I see it, is that twinks only spend platinum to lvl their chars and then enjoy the f2p experience in form of twinking.

Real hardcore farmers use elix almost on a 24/7 basis, spend plat on payed dungeons and elixers like classy looter and shamrock. I'm basing myself on the 100's of active players within my and other (non-pvp) guilds, which seems like a much higher sample rate than the few PvP guilds with limited members.

The percentages you name here, are nothing more than simple guesswork that you made up based on your own experiences (ie twinking) and in no way represent the real plat spending habbits of people that don't PvP. I mean, how could it be anything else than numbers you just made up? Do you have access to STS's database of plat spending? I think not.

I understand you want to get your point accross, but I utterly disagree with your attempt to skew the numbers in your favor.

For PvE, those new weapons are just wonderful to play with, and so far STS doesn't seem to want to nerf them any further than increasing their base stat requirement. Maybe they did this because it's actually the PvE players that bring in way more money than the lot of PvP players in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame here, but it's just too obvious that only the PvP'ers are complaining here. From a PvE perspective, I love the new weapons and sincerely hope STS doesn't change a thing about them.

Or maybe they are taking their time deciding what the stats should be exactly... Just a possibility, because I havent seen any confirmation that they wont be nerfed but I HAVE seen Samhayne say the bows are pretty OP, just saying.

[JaytB]

Or maybe they are taking their time deciding what the stats should be exactly... Just a possibility, because I havent seen any confirmation that they wont be nerfed but I HAVE seen Samhayne say the bows are pretty OP, just saying.

Same as I haven't seen any confirmation of stats going to be nerfed. I read Sam's post about those weapons being OP, but his remark was posted as a reply on people complaining that the base stats got nerfed, in which he responded that they were still good weapons.

So, it might be as well that STS isn't going to nerf them any further. But yeah, I guess only time will tell :)

[Yich]

Same as I haven't seen any confirmation of stats going to be nerfed. I read Sam's post about those weapons being OP, but his remark was posted as a reply on people complaining that the base stats got nerfed, in which he responded that they were still good weapons.

So, it might be as well that STS isn't going to nerf them any further. But yeah, I guess only time will tell :)

I think its important to point out he did say they are still pretty OP. to you, they may not "seem to want to nerf" and that implies they seem to want them to stay the same (or have stats raised, which is unlikely). From what Im used to, STS isnt about making and keeping anything thats OP without nerfing it soon after. But ya, time will tell.

[Cobraguy]

I think its important to point out he did say they are still pretty OP. to you, they may not "seem to want to nerf" and that implies they seem to want them to stay the same (or have stats raised, which is unlikely). From what Im used to, STS isnt about making and keeping anything thats OP without nerfing it soon after. But ya, time will tell.

Another thing about being OP was when players complained about the angel sets. STS made it clear that the stats on them would stay as they were. I would assume that if the forgotten weapons were going to be nerfed it would have either been done or at least brought to our attention that they would be. On the other hand, they didnt let us know before hand that the base stats to equip would be incrased either, so i may be wrong. I personally don't care either way if they do reduce stats or not, as I'm not a hardcore PVPer, so I'm not going to get into that debate. My prediction though is that they will in fact stay as they are.

[Airity]

Yeah yeah good good work.. Honestly though, there is NO way I read that all. >.>


I suggest you do, it's a good read :).

[Pimpslide]

You might know twinking, but you obviously have no clue on the spending habbits of PvE. Maybe it's because you're more of a pvp person instead of a pve one.

The way I see it, is that twinks only spend platinum to lvl their chars and then enjoy the f2p experience in form of twinking.

Real hardcore farmers use elix almost on a 24/7 basis, spend plat on payed dungeons and elixers like classy looter and shamrock. I'm basing myself on the 100's of active players within my and other (non-pvp) guilds, which seems like a much higher sample rate than the few PvP guilds with limited members.

The percentages you name here, are nothing more than simple guesswork that you made up based on your own experiences (ie twinking) and in no way represent the real plat spending habbits of people that don't PvP. I mean, how could it be anything else than numbers you just made up? Do you have access to STS's database of plat spending? I think not.

I understand you want to get your point accross, but I utterly disagree with your attempt to skew the numbers in your favor.

For PvE, those new weapons are just wonderful to play with, and so far STS doesn't seem to want to nerf them any further than increasing their base stat requirement. Maybe they did this because it's actually the PvE players that bring in way more money than the lot of PvP players in this game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame here, but it's just too obvious that only the PvP'ers are complaining here. From a PvE perspective, I love the new weapons and sincerely hope STS doesn't change a thing about them.

Yeah, the new weapons ARE positively awesome for PvE, and yes PvE player DO bring in much more income for the STS via Elixirs. That also kind of leads to the "decline of player skill" as Who stated. Not all PvE players with elixirs suck, but some of them do. Elixirs were a great thing too, but I think when you go to Humania Towne, and all the chat you see is "Looking for a Thrasher Run", and "Hosting a Thrasher Run, 3 spots LEFT", it gets a little sad.

And like you said, the new weapons are awesome for PvE, so why not just keep them in PvE? Is it possible for the devs to make it so these bows cannot be used in a PvP game, or the stats are changed while in PvP? I guess it would be similar to how they did the Mothers Day Bouquet thing, but I don't know a thing about coding.

[Whirlzap]

Just read your article and I can pretty much understand what you're going to do next.

[Mothwing]

I read everything until the Twinking. To say that someone "obviously doesn't twink often", is for one, sort of questioning his knowledge about the game. Two, it says that I know more, and my point is more valid than yours. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it doesn't take a twinking genius to understand that this is clearly a problem. I see all these posts making twinking way more complicated than it needs to be. It's simply: "players PVP'ing at a low level". It doesn't mean they have more skill. It doesn't mean they have more experience. TBH, I couldn't care less about all this. Simple weapons are not worth 5 pages of research. It's. A. Video. Game. Can we play it?

[Plaguemaw]

I'll deal with a nerf for these bows if it comes, but what about the plat I spent the first time to respec to wear it, then had to again when stat got increased? If they get nerfed again ill have to respec a third time to fix the toons again. Idk about your guys but I have dozens of toons, it does get expensive fixing my twinks due to the stat changes.

Sent from my HTCEVODesign4G using Tapatalk 2

[Thelastblink]

I'll deal with a nerf for these bows if it comes, but what about the plat I spent the first time to respec to wear it, then had to again when stat got increased? If they get nerfed again ill have to respec a third time to fix the toons again. Idk about your guys but I have dozens of toons, it does get expensive fixing my twinks due to the stat changes.

Sent from my HTCEVODesign4G using Tapatalk 2

Idk if you were around at this time but when sewers were released they gave free skill respecs for a limited time unlimited. So you could respec your skills as much as you want So I think sts should do that for the bow thing:( This forgotten nonsense is just ridiculous.... Me too, I spent 100 k on new gear but I guess id be happy for their nerf.....

[WhoIsThis]

Keep the chat clean and civil. I don't want to see another flame war or this thread locked. Disagree with a person's argument, not their person.

[Gaunab]

Phew! :rolleyes:

Very glad this thread survived. Awesome work bro!
There isn't much to add, except for the question about the scewed range (+/- 2m when chasing/running). I don't even know if this is intentional, and if so, why!?

I hope this thread will prove to have been worth the effort... :worked_till_5am:

[WhoIsThis]

You are correct that things are more complicated than I implied. But you'll find that I agree on more than we initially might think.


You might know twinking, but you obviously have no clue on the spending habbits of PvE. Maybe it's because you're more of a pvp person instead of a pve one.

The way I see it, is that twinks only spend platinum to lvl their chars and then enjoy the f2p experience in form of twinking.

Agreed. That may be one of the reasons why twinking is neglected. But twinkers enjoy it that way. They didn't want radically new content to unbalance things they way it did. Many twinkers have said that they feel that the reason why this is happening is that they are not the huge source of platinum that say, end game elixir burning farmers are, making them expendable to STS.



Real hardcore farmers use elix almost on a 24/7 basis, spend plat on payed dungeons and elixers like classy looter and shamrock. I'm basing myself on the 100's of active players within my and other (non-pvp) guilds, which seems like a much higher sample rate than the few PvP guilds with limited members.

Agreed. That is why there are players that spend so much - $5,000 USD+.

As discussed in my PM, an 80 plat elixir, assuming 1 hour, costs $3.60 an hour. At that rate, it takes 278 hours to get to $1,000, easily doable within 1-2 months for a hardcore player.

But it's not so clear.

For example, a PvPer may spend elixirs every time that they go into the dungeons to PvE, which although less than a hardcore PvEer, is still enough to make a substantial impact.




The percentages you name here, are nothing more than simple guesswork that you made up based on your own experiences (ie twinking) and in no way represent the real plat spending habbits of people that don't PvP. I mean, how could it be anything else than numbers you just made up? Do you have access to STS's database of plat spending? I think not.

Educated guesses based on statistics and personal observations. Yes. But it is not a wild guess - it's much more educated than you imply.

That 5-7% figure though is not made up. I have talked with several developers of F2P MMOs about this. The ones willing to disclose usually tell me within 5-7% of all their customers end up as paying. I think that barring a full release from STS, it's pretty safe to say that among all the people that play PL, perhaps 5-7% are paying customers. Many will simply play for a bit and uninstall. Others will play more, but won't pay. In the end, it's most common for 5-7% to play, at least among PC games. It's possible that for mobile that figure could be higher or lower. Mobile might be different from PC in this regard, for example, people may be used to purchasing apps and this is an extension of that.

If we were able to get an answer from STS as to how many people who ever installed and played PL became paying customers, the most probable outcome is a percentage in the single digits.

But I remain firm that among that 5-7% (or whatever that number is for STS), a disproportionate amount comes from high end PvPers - a high enough percentage that their concerns cannot be simply dismissed as you imply. Yes, high end PvP is perhaps 2-5% of the population. But it's also one that generates a high enough percentage of the total platinum revenue that it's concerns, it's worries should merit some response from STS.





For PvE, those new weapons are just wonderful to play with, and so far STS doesn't seem to want to nerf them any further than increasing their base stat requirement. Maybe they did this because it's actually the PvE players that bring in way more money than the lot of PvP players in this game.


Strong disagreement there. Why?

It worsens a problem I brought up earlier.



For new players, leveling appears to have been made more accessible. STS appears to have reduced the xp requirements to get to the endgame. I don’t view this as a good thing. For a new player to understand PL, despite its simplified mechanics and play it to a level I would define as “competent”, they need a certain level of experience to absorb everything that is around them. The end result is that we now have players that are even less prepared for the endgame and far more likely to be carried or use elixirs because frankly, they suck.

Handing players weapons that allow them to faceroll PvE at the lower levels has several harmful effects:

1. It prevents players from achieving that level of competence I mentioned - only this time by giving them an unbalancing weapon
2. From STS perspective, it may hurt in the short run as well - a player who used such a weapon might just be a lost elixir sale; I suppose this is a long term vs short term issue; perhaps from a monetary perspective, sacrificing 2 for 1 is the best option for STS. Hmm on the other hand, perhaps not. Elixir users will be elixir users no matter what, so maybe they are forgoing short term sales. In that case, all the more reason to nerf - more platinum sales for people who want to pal for a faceroll in the lower level PvE dungeons.
3. It also prevents a steady scale of difficulty. By that I mean, the hardest dungeon should always be the endgame ones, and the easiest the first one, with each dungeon becoming progressively harder than the last. An exception might be given to the "elite" dungeons such as the Shadow Caves, but the main dungeons should generally be progressively tougher. Such a weapon unbalances that too. A weapon unbalancing suddenly makes the next couple of dungeons a faceroll and then when said weapon becomes redundant due to higher levels - it's a shock for the player.
4. It depresses the value of every other weapon in the CS in that level range and above (so long as the Forgotten weapons are superior)

The point is, there are good reasons even in PvE to get these forgotten weapons nerfed.

[WhoIsThis]

Phew! :rolleyes:

Very glad this thread survived. Awesome work bro!
There isn't much to add, except for the question about the scewed range (+/- 2m when chasing/running). I don't even know if this is intentional, and if so, why!?

I hope this thread will prove to have been worth the effort... :worked_till_5am:

1. I had to ask the mods to unlock the thread in person.

2. I do not know if the range issue is a bug or intentional game design. I cannot find a developer comment at this time, and as such, remain inconclusive.


Edit:

If the issue is bugging you, I suggest you post it in the bugs and technical issues section.

[Yich]

This guy does his research. Still any confirmation on plans of nerf/no nerf?

[WhoIsThis]

Still any confirmation on plans of nerf/no nerf?


Inconclusive. At time of this writing, no dev response on the state of these weapons has been made. It's entirely possible that they may announce that the weapons were made potent temporarily for the event, or they may opt for it for good. Until there is a response, we can say inconclusive for now. If there is no response though for more than 1 month though, I'd say the OP stats are here to stay.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Glad this thread is back! Hated to see it get locked.

[Thelastblink]

Thnx devs for unlocking... Please consider this thread and change the game to the old PL i once loved and had passion for! First step could be to nerf the forgotten items A LOT and get some former players in again!

[XghostzX]

As said above, I'm glad this thread is unlocked. I as well hope things can go back to the way it was... the new UI brought way too many bugs.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

I've quit until things are fixed,

[Unxtoxic]

I was apart of that era :) (feels good to say that)

[Otukura]

I've quit until things are fixed,

You PM me "I quit." every other day...

[lilweezy]

in before relock :)

[Rot]

I'm just too lazy to read. (>@.@)>
Anyways, great effort. I can imagine how long it took for you to type down all your opinions. :applause:

[Tayvar]

This was perhaps the most well written post(s) that I have yet to come across on these forumns. Thank you for all the time, effort, and research put into your article. Your post has me wondering if the balance between freemium marketing and player skill will be tilted in the same manner in the upcoming Arcane Legends. I truly hope not.

[Sryyoulose]

As some people may know I quit PL at the beginning of the Humania cap. I logged on today and started to twink again... And clearly I found out about these new op weapons. Figuring that prices can only go up I bought a bow and began to kill. Killing is way easier then ever before! I feel like a tier: Dev with these op weapons. I've always considered myself below T1 but above the average T2 players.

Now what happened to skill? I had no idea! I want to ask the devs to release another pl. A pl up to sewer cap.
Anyways, Good post <3 you all!

[Thelastblink]

As some people may know I quit PL at the beginning of the Humania cap. I logged on today and started to twink again... And clearly I found out about these new op weapons. Figuring that prices can only go up I bought a bow and began to kill. Killing is way easier then ever before! I feel like a tier: Dev with these op weapons. I've always considered myself below T1 but above the average T2 players.

Now what happened to skill? I had no idea! I want to ask the devs to release another pl. A pl up to sewer cap.
Anyways, Good post <3 you all!

Lol i had the same reaction!:( At first you think your legendary but after it gets very boring after skill is not involved and when you see the diversity wiped out!:( Btw nice thread again Whoisthis!

[Techno Email]

Thank you for the extensive and thoughtful post. I'm looking into the dodge stat's on Humania legendary gear. I will also take this into consideration with the new items I'm creating. I'm still reading your posts, but wanted to let you know that we really appreciate all this constructive feedback.

Just a side-note: We value PVP very much because it's a great way to have fun in PL. It's also an important part of our end-game. It is extremely difficult to know exactly how gear balance will play out when millions of characters are using it. We rely on your feedback to a certain extent. We are most likely to address feedback that is constructive, actionable, concise and reaches consensus. How we address your feedback (especially regarding balance issues) may not be what you expect.

[Dynastu]

Thank you for the extensive and thoughtful post. I'm looking into the dodge stat's on Humania legendary gear. I will also take this into consideration with the new items I'm creating. I'm still reading your posts, but wanted to let you know that we really appreciate all this constructive feedback.

Just a side-note: We value PVP very much because it's a great way to have fun in PL. It's also an important part of our end-game. It is extremely difficult to know exactly how gear balance will play out when millions of characters are using it. We rely on your feedback to a certain extent. We are most likely to address feedback that is constructive, actionable, concise and reaches consensus. How we address your feedback (especially regarding balance issues) may not be what you expect.

Yes, finally, a response about PvP balance! Thank you, Techno. I was incredibly frustrated with the deterioration of PvP and I didn't think it would ever get addressed.

[WhoIsThis]

Just a side-note: We value PVP very much because it's a great way to have fun in PL. It's also an important part of our end-game. It is extremely difficult to know exactly how gear balance will play out when millions of characters are using it. We rely on your feedback to a certain extent. We are most likely to address feedback that is constructive, actionable, concise and reaches consensus. How we address your feedback (especially regarding balance issues) may not be what you expect.

I should note that this is the first real response I can find on the forums that has indicated that PvP holds some value to the development team of PL.

I will withhold further judgement until I see changes (if any).

[Sim Jing]

+1!

[Elyseon]

Dodge needs reduced over all at end game, also armor(increased) or dmg reduction as well, a one shot kill should never be happening in a buffed fight of players of the same level

[Silverpegasus]

No, dodge should not be reduced. Those darned yetis roaming Huamania kill non elixir use mages like ant. Even when level cap is raised, at this point to 71, i cant believe my HP is still 400 like when i was level 1, when that yetis have like... 2000 hp!?
The problem all lies in our meagre HP. The health cap should be raised. We gorged insanely amount of health pot each run, PL has turned into a quick-finger potting game.

Why is an endgame character having 400 HP!!! In all other games, your HP always goes up when you levelled.
Even with point based allocation attributes, i still think you should have a basic HP raise for all classes.

Like, A meagre 2hp per level for mage, 2.5 for archer, 3 for warrior will even do,
Better yet make a ascending hp increase curve yield. (not descending curve)
Steepest slope for warrior class.

[Ixillicus]

I definitely think the running backwards range issue needs to be fixed. If it's a bug or intentional, I can't stand it!

[Sim Jing]

This requires a much needed BUMP

[Sim Jing]

This is indeed constructive criticism. =D

[GoodSyntax]

@Who,

Very well written posts! I share many (if not all) of your concerns and have voiced many of them in other threads.

A major source of the problem keeps coming back to Elixir usage and the decline of player skill. To combat skill decline, STS has Elixirs and OP'd gear. Because of the gear and Elixirs, they have to make the mobs much tougher - more damage, more HP, higher armor. Because of the OP'd mobs, more players commit to Elixirs which just continue the vicious cycle.

Frankly, I can't see STS doing away with Elixirs (as much as I would LOVE to see that) because it has become a major revenue source.

Cooperative gameplay has to become the focus for future caps because that has been the component of the game that has declined with each new release. Perhaps introductions of AOE Mega Combos and Single Target Mega's would help.

My opinion is that a single potted staff mage should not be able to lead the group and initiate first contact with a mob. Another problem is that a non-potted groups Mega Combo should be doing more damage than a potted staff mage's Drain + Firestorm.


I would honestly like to see better group combos that offer critical debuffs on mobs and bosses and critical buffs on party members. I would also like to see more chained combos that multiply damage. Furthermore, I would like to see chained buff/debuff combos.

So, here are some suggestions

BUFF COMBOS
Invincible Group
Makes all players within 12 meters sustain 0 damage from enemy attacks for 10 seconds.

Bear: Iron Blood
Mage: Blessing of Might
Bird: Evasion
Mage: Blessing of Vitality


Mega Rage
Doubles damage output and crit chance of all players within 12 meters for 10 seconds

Bear: Rage
Mage: Nightmare
Bird: Focus
Bear: Hell Scream

Massive Heal
Sets the HP of all players within 12 meters to 100% full.

Mage: Heal
Bear: Restore
Bird: Restore
Mage: Heal

Group Magic Shield
Extends a Magic Shield around all players within 12 meters for 12 seconds.

Bear: Restore
Bird: Meditation
Mage: Magic Shield


DEBUFF COMBOS
Mega Nightmare
Reduces armor to 0 for all enemies within 8 meters for 5 seconds

Bear: Hell Scream
Mage: Weakness
Bird: Avian Scream
Mage: Nightmare


CHAINED COMBOS
My thought on chained combos is that for every consecutive hit on an enemy (regardless of type) prior to a successfully landed counter-attack, that the damage increases either logarithmically or by an increasingly scaled percentage. This way, after a bunch of successful auto-attacks, landing a Combo or Mega-Combo would amplify damage significantly.

OTHER THOUGHTS
The order of Mega Rage and Mega Nightmare are complimentary, and can be chained together successfully to attain Double Damage + Mob/Boss with 0 armor. The point is that these chains are not easy to execute, but the benefits are significant, so group tactics play a much more visible role in the game, and negates the need (for some) to use Elixirs.

The counter of this argument is that bosses and high level mobs should be able to execute similar buff/debuff combos.

[Dynastu]

@GoodSyntax,

It'd be even better if some of these combos weren't possible when 2 or more group members were in possession of an elixir, but yeah right lol. This game is sadly becoming revenue > gameplay (or has been for a while, I mean).

[GoodSyntax]

Unfortunately, team tactics has taken a back seat to elixir usage and the overall cooperative gameplay has been in steady decline.

Hopefully, STS introduces more features that are focused promoting cooperation.

I was just trying offer up some ideas that would help promote better team mechanics. The point being that potted users can still rampage across the map like they usually do, but an unpotted team can be just as effective (maybe even more so) if they work well together.

Group buff/debuff would be especially effective for boss fights - kind of like the old days in AO or the Sewers when a great team could dominate the map without all the new-fangled elixirs.

[springtime]

To sum it up-sts had compromised quality and integrity for cash.

[springtime]

They are also lazy and put very little thought into the game...they don't need to because they make a butt load regardless. The people who make new maps never look at the old maps. There is no flow. It's Incohesive. I believe they have interns or people who have never played the game before jump in and create a map. They have mo clue about the mentality of their players anymore. They have lost sight of their original mission. I'm on the verge of leaving myself

[GoodSyntax]

@springtime,

Kind of harsh. I mean a butt load of money is relative. For you or I, yes, it is a lot of money, but for a development studio who has employees, benefits, hosting fees, bandwidth fees, marketing and other costs, I doubt they would consider their revenue stream a butt load. STS is a business and any business has operating costs. I doubt that the developers behind PL are lazy and without integrity - much to the contrary, I believe that they are, generally speaking, genuine and committed to the game. The problem is that the reality of their business model necessitates a dependable and growing revenue source. It is also a stretch to say that they have no clue about the mentality of the players anymore. Remember that this started out as a small release with a story arc that was supposed to end about 5 caps ago. They are carrying forward the same theme, while the user base has increased exponentially from the early days. With a player base as large as PL, you can't keep every niche happy - all you can do is focus on the mainstream while selectively making changes to help the fringe. It's a tough balancing act, and though there have been some missteps, on the whole, I think STS has done a commendable job.

I just feel that the game balance and cooperative play has suffered in the past few cap raises.

Has the focus been more on Platinum generating items and dungeons lately, sure, but my criticisms are more about the gaming community at-large. Me, and many others included, feel that elixir usage has become rampant and as a consequence, there are a lot of high level players that truly don't know how to play their part in a team. Much of this is due to the fact that Elixirs mask poor teamwork, so a potted group can still brute force their way through maps with terrible group dynamics. This stands in stark contrast to the Sewer days (before Elixirs came out), when a good group meant quick runs and few deaths, while a poor group would struggle and likely reset several times before they beat the boss.

All I am looking for is a refocusing on team dynamics instead of just new maps, new elixirs, new items and new turnstile dungeons. As the strength of mobs and bosses increase, teamwork should become more of a priority instead - but again, due to widespread Elixir usage, the opposite has become commonplace.

Furthermore, with Elixirs effectively costing real world money, players are trying to maximize their Elixir investment; so we are starting to see a lot of rushing and non-healing/rezzing mages along with less chat and teaching. The problem is that with Elixirs costing real money, people don't want to teach or chat anymore - that's wastes time, thus money, so the newer players don't receive the same sort of mentorship that I was fortunate enough to receive.

I am just hoping that STS can find a way (perhaps through one of my suggestions) to rekindle good team dynamics, mentoring, etc., and find a way to level the playing field so that non-potted teams can be nearly as effective as potted teams.

Much as I dislike it, Pandora's Box has been opened, and you simply can't take away Elixirs, that would kill the primary revenue source for STS and alienate a lot of players who have changed their game style to become dependent upon it. But, anything that encourages cooperative play will help. There is a way for elixirs and good team work to exist within the same game - STS just hasn't unlocked the recipe yet.

[springtime]

Of course you cant keep everyone happy...but if the business stayed true to their original mission it would not matter. Also, with the amount of mistakes and lack of attention to detail in last major update, it became clear to me that something was off. I question the integrity of their business.

It is also not my responsibility to be concerned about their overhead. I don't work for them, I give them lots of money. They have three games and going to be a fourth. All plat generated...I think they r doing ok.

I stick with my original opinion.

[springtime]

By the way I agree with you about the cooperative game play...it was really a fun game back in the sewer days.

But I do believe that sts is responsible for the change in the tone of the game. I call it the greed factor. They would have to make a lot of changes to reset it like you are describing...and I'm all for that. I hope they do.

[Whirlzap]

Thank you for the extensive and thoughtful post. I'm looking into the dodge stat's on Humania legendary gear. I will also take this into consideration with the new items I'm creating. I'm still reading your posts, but wanted to let you know that we really appreciate all this constructive feedback.

Just a side-note: We value PVP very much because it's a great way to have fun in PL. It's also an important part of our end-game. It is extremely difficult to know exactly how gear balance will play out when millions of characters are using it. We rely on your feedback to a certain extent. We are most likely to address feedback that is constructive, actionable, concise and reaches consensus. How we address your feedback (especially regarding balance issues) may not be what you expect.

Perhaps have a beta-testing server or alternate game version for a selected group to test/give feedback?

[WhoIsThis]

No, dodge should not be reduced. Those darned yetis roaming Huamania kill non elixir use mages like ant. Even when level cap is raised, at this point to 71, i cant believe my HP is still 400 like when i was level 1, when that yetis have like... 2000 hp!?
The problem all lies in our meagre HP. The health cap should be raised. We gorged insanely amount of health pot each run, PL has turned into a quick-finger potting game.

Why is an endgame character having 400 HP!!! In all other games, your HP always goes up when you levelled.
Even with point based allocation attributes, i still think you should have a basic HP raise for all classes.

Like, A meagre 2hp per level for mage, 2.5 for archer, 3 for warrior will even do,
Better yet make a ascending hp increase curve yield. (not descending curve)
Steepest slope for warrior class.

Gotta disagree ... dodge needs a nerf. Armor should be buffed because it is consistent.

Mage dodge is not the issue at hand in PvE, although it is a bit unbalancing to see int mages dodging in pvp. A 25% dodge means that you have a 1 in 4 chance of surviving that killing blow.

But yes, compared to other MMOs, levelling doesn't scale nearly as well. There are no hp buffs when you level up. To be honest, I actually prefer it this way right now. I don't think there should be a PvP increase, but rather a steady armor increase. It would need a huge re-balance to change it (damage on enemies for example would have to be changed). Not to mention, in PvP, making levelling gain Hp could also destroy twinking and multi-level PvPing.

[WhoIsThis]

Unfortunately, team tactics has taken a back seat to elixir usage and the overall cooperative gameplay has been in steady decline.

Hopefully, STS introduces more features that are focused promoting cooperation.

I was just trying offer up some ideas that would help promote better team mechanics. The point being that potted users can still rampage across the map like they usually do, but an unpotted team can be just as effective (maybe even more so) if they work well together.

Group buff/debuff would be especially effective for boss fights - kind of like the old days in AO or the Sewers when a great team could dominate the map without all the new-fangled elixirs.

As you have noted, the reason why things are the way they are no incentives to cooperate. There is an incentive to get in, get out, and maximize returns on an elixir for maximum loot drops. PL isn't the only game with this problem. WoW, Runescape, and pretty much most MMOs suffer from similar flaws.

Perhaps the Guild Wars 2 system works best. There are rewards for helping people you don't know.

There are several reasons why the Sewers days worked better:

1. Pug average skill was much higher
2. There wasn't a "pot up and own" culture
3. Although there were more than a few bad apples, things weren't as bad as they were now in terms of respect
4. The dungeons were arguably better designed; IMO AO3 and the Sewers to date have been the best designed dungeons STS made for PL
5. There was a greater desire among people to work together


Game design, along with PL's changing demographics have changed all that.

[WhoIsThis]

@springtime,

Kind of harsh. I mean a butt load of money is relative. For you or I, yes, it is a lot of money, but for a development studio who has employees, benefits, hosting fees, bandwidth fees, marketing and other costs, I doubt they would consider their revenue stream a butt load. STS is a business and any business has operating costs. I doubt that the developers behind PL are lazy and without integrity - much to the contrary, I believe that they are, generally speaking, genuine and committed to the game. The problem is that the reality of their business model necessitates a dependable and growing revenue source. It is also a stretch to say that they have no clue about the mentality of the players anymore. Remember that this started out as a small release with a story arc that was supposed to end about 5 caps ago. They are carrying forward the same theme, while the user base has increased exponentially from the early days. With a player base as large as PL, you can't keep every niche happy - all you can do is focus on the mainstream while selectively making changes to help the fringe.


I'll say this much on this matter.

I'm not a programmer, but let's just say I have better than layman's knowledge on the matter. It's not easy to be a game developer. The hours can be long and the pay isn't always high. Launching a new game as an indie studio to is a very BIG risk, like any entrepreneurial venture.

But that said, I would not be surprised if STS' monetization has been immensely successful (in the short run). In the long run, it may hurt a lot as I noted in my OP.

@GoodSyntax

Providing bandwidth support isn't that expensive. These days, companies like Amazon offer pretty good data-center services, with very high quality connections, and very high uptime. This has drastically lowered the barriers to entry, even for an MMO. Plus things like Steam on the PC, and the Google Play store have significantly leveled the playing field between Indies and large publishers. Technical support though can be costly, depending on the game. But in general, like all software, the vast majority of the costs are the fixed development costs (up front for the gaming engine), plus any new content.

For PC games, traditionally for that reason, the bulk of the revenues from a new title come from within the first couple of months of sale, when a game is like $60. Then prices drop drastically and the revenues slow down. It's the nature of this industry. MMOs are a bit different in that the revenues tend to be more fixed, with bursts of high revenue when new content is released. To keep the revenue flowing, MMOs require regular updates of good content to keep people playing ... and paying.

[GoodSyntax]

@WhoIsThis

Agreed, the cost of entry has come down significantly, but with the updates that cap the number of people in per-town instances, that means more servers/services. Yes, bandwidth and hosting is relatively cheap, but when you are dealing with the magnitude of millions of gamers, even cheap bandwidth and host fees becomes expensive as you scale up.

You are totally correct in regards to traditional games, where you see a huge spike in profits during game release, then a gradual decrease as the MSRP declines. In that way, most studios recoup their R&D costs in the first couple of weeks, leaving subsequent weeks/months revenue as profit. MMOs in particular require constant updates to maintain revenue, but that also drives up R&D costs, so the profit yields are most likely lower than the more-or-less fixed cost of traditional games.

Unfortunately, as you and others have said, short term gains (aka elixirs and other platinum sinks) usually creates a long term degradation of the revenue stream, as the subscriber base becomes weary of all the updates that focus on just profit generating items. The best way to maintain your revenue stream is to keep your subscribers engaged, and that means more content, better gameplay, better community features, etc. STS may be doing quite well right now, but without some kind of rebalancing that focuses on subscriber engagement, STS will ultimately see their subscriber count drop.

[XghostzX]

Still think this man hasn't received enough credit for his insightful feedback. He is a true member of our community.

[Otukura]

Still think this man hasn't received enough credit for his insightful feedback. He is a true member of our community.

He got credit in way of a no-GoA shield from the devs.

Pretty nice.

[Waug]

Dex birds – well let’s just say that if you are fighting another dex bird, it’s all in the dodge
now. If they dodge you and you don’t, you’re
dead. If it’s the opposite – you’ll own that fight. If both players dodge, expect a
long match (isn’t dex bird vs dex bird supposed to be a fast fight?).

lol, seriously you mislead few dex birds so bad, that they say luck everytime when gets killed again another dex birds.


Dodge is a factor that devs added to the game, cuz they wanted to add a luck factor, Dodge is okay as long as there is a back-up plan to kill the enemy, lets get to the main topic dodge and dex vs dex bird

to kill another bird you'll be needing just two hits no problem if you didn't crit one shot. It's bit funny when two birds approaches to each other and when get to 12mm range dye instantly, that's not even skill based, rather to know how to dodge more against him and kill him easily even if he dodge bit is bit more challenging. Everything I talked here about pure dex birds.

[Astrocat]

Amazing thread.. I mean, this thread is like a headshot for the reader, makes you think a bit.

[OverkillED]

Great thread! Absolutely amazing points you pointed out!
I'm a WoW player... And these days in Mists of Pandaria, everyone has pretty insane burst, (except the healers and tanks of course! Plus the burst was usually tested on someone standing still, not popping defensive cooldowns/showing no resistance), but people aren't as gear dependent as PL. 83% dodge?! That's insane!!!

WoW:
It usually comes down to player skill in WoW, but there are problems there as well. For example, a fire mage in WoW is OP if you know how to use it and set up your combos, maybe a little too OP if you know what you're doing. When a mage's target is frozen, they have increased crit chance against the target and the crit damage is multiplied. Example: Crowd control, ring of frost, freeze the enemy, silence, scorch, deep freeze [stun that counts enemy as frozen, so the enemy can't resist unless they trinket], then get instant pyroblast procs (Two crits in a row get you an instant pyro), another inferno blast, BAAAM! Double instant pyroblast crits. People were QQing a lot during pre-Pandaria-patch about getting ultimately destroyed in one deep, but at least mages aren't invincible. People were also QQing about a warrior or hunter popping their cool downs and killing you really fast and that shadow priest CC and survivability was out of control. The thing is about WoW is that you can line up CC, interrupts, silences, and stuns to beat an enemy and dodge isn't so big (unless it's a cooldown, and that doesn't even last so long), so the enemy won't dodge attacks entirely. Buffs/offensive cooldowns in WoW may be very good, but you actually have to time them.

Back onto PL:
I think they should remove forgotten bows entirely! They have no purpose but to destroy low level twinking! STS can remove Halloween costumes that easily, so why not forgotten, or how about forgotten only lasts for the time of the event? I love low level twinking in PL and the amount of birds popping up because of forgotten is crazy! I play one myself, but I also played it before forgotten, and it was more challenging. About high level gear: They should nerf dodge! Max amount of dodge unbuffed should be like 10, so that more than half can ACTUALLY HIT! But people will start QQing about being destroyed without dodge.. SO NERF BUFFS, or maybe take them out entirely, OR just make the max amount of points put into buffs be like 3, and the rest of skills 7 or whatever, so that you actually depend less on buffs and more on attacking and skill order!

[OverkillED]

Sorry for double post, but my ideas sound far fetched right? STS, think of it like this :). If forgotten is removed, people will buy more plat packs because that is the basic gear for low level twinking. Moar packs require plat, which are bought with real $$$!

[Riccits]

WoW:
It usually comes down to player skill in WoW, but there are problems there as well. For example, a fire mage in WoW is OP

they nerfed firemages last weeks, since they output dmg was insane high xD
after big rants of mageplayers they higherd again a little bit

[OverkillED]

Sorry to bump this thread again, but I must point out that the last article rant thingy whatever summed it up. Amazing. You should also try Guild Wars 2 along with WoW. I play both and both are quite rewarding for your efforts and time.

[XghostzX]

I shall always treasure this thread... anyone else?

[Zeus]

I shall always treasure this thread... anyone else?

Me too!

[dudetus]

Me three.

[tHelonestud]

One of the greatest threads ever

[Yich]

I'm just glad someone this smart and with that much time saw the problem with forgotten weapons. Too many "adapt and move on" people around here. Let me tell ya folks, moving on is downloading a new game and letting this one rot for all I care, and many of STS's low level PvPers did so. Unfortunately they moved to AL where they'll find the same problem when STS releases every-other-letter-of-the-alphabet-L.

[Whirlzap]

Me too!

-1 you horrible Grammar expert!
It is "I too!"
Subject pronoun instead of predicate pronoun n00b.

[XghostzX]

Me too!

-1 you horrible Grammar expert!
It is "I too!"
Subject pronoun instead of predicate pronoun n00b.

He is a noob !

[Jcyee]

I shall always treasure this thread... anyone else?

Very much so. One of the best threads I've ever read.

[Cavoc]

And the problems just get worse.

[CrimsonTider]

Yeah. Let's bring back a thread which has an entire section dedicated to slandering a player and say they have little knowledge/experience in twinking and of game mechanics. Can we say, "Kettle calling the pot black." After multiple pm's of my "twinking" experience, not one edit.

But it's the greatest post ever. Funny how many people pm'ed/thanked me for things I said in the post he attached and turned around and thanked Chris for what he said. Things don't usually bother me, but when I am disrespected by someone I respect, and others in the same category "thank" this, shows just how "false" some people are.

[Zeus]

-1 you horrible Grammar expert!
It is "I too!"
Subject pronoun instead of predicate pronoun n00b.

I know, I was taught that for SAT but...I'd rather look a little stupid at times than be completely proper and nerdy. :p

[Riccits]

wondering if WhoIsThis already 12/12 in Thron of Thunder...

[Yich]

Yeah. Let's bring back a thread which has an entire section dedicated to slandering a player and say they have little knowledge/experience in twinking and of game mechanics. Can we say, "Kettle calling the pot black." After multiple pm's of my "twinking" experience, not one edit.

But it's the greatest post ever. Funny how many people pm'ed/thanked me for things I said in the post he attached and turned around and thanked Chris for what he said. Things don't usually bother me, but when I am disrespected by someone I respect, and others in the same category "thank" this, shows just how "false" some people are.

Ik for a fact you arent referring to me. I agree with him on every point about twinking. There's no solid argument against him, not now.

[CrimsonTider]

Ik for a fact you arent referring to me. I agree with him on every point about twinking. There's no solid argument against him, not now.

I'm placing you on ignore. I tried pm'ing you and you seem to not get it. Lemme know when you mature. No one likes a "no-it-all" and I told you before, I'm over it. But keep up holding grudges and picking at old scabs and see where the road of life leads you. I know we bumped heads at times, but I have also shown my lighter side and you still keep that wall up. I deal with a school full of students each day just like you and I refuse to play mind games 24/7.

[XghostzX]

I'm placing you on ignore. I tried pm'ing you and you seem to not get it. Lemme know when you mature. No one likes a "no-it-all" and I told you before, I'm over it. But keep up holding grudges and picking at old scabs and see where the road of life leads you. I know we bumped heads at times, but I have also shown my lighter side and you still keep that wall up. I deal with a school full of students each day just like you and I refuse to play mind games 24/7.

Crim, c'mon. You are better then this. I don't want to see this thread get locked up.

[CrimsonTider]

Crim, c'mon. You are better then this. I don't want to see this thread get locked up.

To be honest, Will, we keep complaining about speaking "truth" on forums and yet, when we do, no one wants to hear it. If anyone read what I said above, then read Yich's reaction, it is clear he was taking a defensive stance when I wasn't even focused on him. I do not apologize for conforming, nor speaking the truth.

[Yich]

To be honest, Will, we keep complaining about speaking "truth" on forums and yet, when we do, no one wants to hear it. If anyone read what I said above, then read Yich's reaction, it is clear he was taking a defensive stance when I wasn't even focused on him. I do not apologize for conforming, nor speaking the truth.

I just wanted to make sure you knew I was never on your side through any of that. Ive always been on this side and me saying this is a great post is not at all "fake" or "false", as I never took your side. You didnt quote anyone with your earlier post, so to any new/uninformed forumer, you were calling me false. Much as Id love to sit idly by and take that, Im not going to and I will let it be known where Ive stood on the matter and always have.

[XghostzX]

Although you two are friends of mine, you both have this urgency to be passive aggressive. I don't want to take sides because that never goes a right way, but you're both very intelligent people, and I know you both are capable of keeping a mature, and respectful conversation through a forum. That's all I'm asking, because this post that WhoIsThis spent lots of time on - it would be a shame for it to be locked up.