1 Crit= 5 Damage?

[kellylita]

After looking it over I figured, 1 crit=5 damage for end game pvp. This is based on a average. Can any math experts confirm this? Any geniuses out there?

[Otukura]

Depends what the armor of the opponent and your damage is. Either way, since fang, crit has been saturated for mages so anything above 40 isn't really that useful, unless you're unbuffed.

[kellylita]

I was more concerned about bird and bears, and also unbuffed mages.

[WarTornBird]

Mages are hitting clear over a thousand with a combo. So 1 crit = 5 damage I believe. I'm no math guy but I can believe it.

[JaytB]

It depends on the average dmg of your skills.

If you'd take blast shot for example, the difference between 52crit (sand skipper set without vanities) and 53crit would be: 5.03 dmg per hit, so pretty close to that 5dmg.

If you'd take auto-attack dmg (lower average dmg), the difference between 52crit and 53crit would be: 3.71 dmg per hit


I made a simple Excel sheet to calculate it...

15933

This is all theoretical of course, because crit and exact amount of dmg dealt depends on luck :)

[Noodleleg]

Ask Physiologic.

[JaytB]

Ask Physiologic.

Yeah, let's completely ignore my answer and instead PM someone who's probably busy with everything but with what difference 1 crit makes.

Sounds like a plan :D

[Noodleleg]

Yeah, let's completely ignore my answer and instead PM someone who's probably busy with everything but with what difference 1 crit makes.

Sounds like a plan :D

Yesh, sounds good!

[Riccits]

jaybs excel table already explained all in a simple way

i remember someone asked asked if 1 crit is better than 1 dmg, so physiolgic made some calcs, would need to find thread, mayb would be applicable for this too^^

simplest thinking: avg dmg / 100 = dmg gained per 1% crit

[JaytB]

simplest thinking: avg dmg / 100 = dmg gained per 1% crit

Yup, that's correct :)

[FluffNStuff]

Are you looking to compare the benefit of 1 crit vs x damage, or just quantify 1 crit?

Also, it is (hit% < 1) * (dmg - armor) / 100 = damage gained by 1% crit.

[JaytB]

Are you looking to compare the benefit of 1 crit vs x damage, or just quantify 1 crit?

Also, it is (hit% < 1) * (dmg - armor) / 100 = damage gained by 1% crit.

As far as I understood, the question was simply to just quantify 1crit.

Although, your formula taking hit% and enemy armor into account would be a more accurate calculation.

[kellylita]

Okay lets just say for arguments sake you do an average of 200 damage per attack(including spells). 1 crit means you do double damage 1 out of 100 hits, Therefore giving you 200 damage for every 100 hits. in this particular scenario does 1 crit = 2 damage???

[FluffNStuff]

Okay lets just say for arguments sake you do an average of 200 damage per attack(including spells). 1 crit means you do double damage 1 out of 100 hits, Therefore giving you 200 damage for every 100 hits. in this particular scenario does 1 crit = 2 damage???

Simply put, yes.

But that is assuming 200 is the actual damage (taking into account opponent armor), you have a 100% hit and the opponent has a 0% dodge.

[RyanDestiny]

This all makes sense, but the variables seem endless when you factor in things like armor, hit%, and dodge. Is crit capped at 40? I don't know any mages that have over 40 unbuffed anyway...

[Zapoke]

This all makes sense, but the variables seem endless when you factor in things like armor, hit%, and dodge. Is crit capped at 40? I don't know any mages that have over 40 unbuffed anyway...

No. My Custom bird has something like 50 crit unbuffed. If I put it on my Mage, I could get over 40.

[JaytB]

This all makes sense, but the variables seem endless when you factor in things like armor, hit%, and dodge. Is crit capped at 40? I don't know any mages that have over 40 unbuffed anyway...

A pure lv71 INT mage can have 63% crit unbuffed with persistence/red dragon set, 2crit ring and fierce mage face.

And crit isn't capped (although more than 100% is useless), for skill dmg at least. 100% crit basically means that IF you hit, you'll crit. For auto-attack, your crit would be 85% when buffed, because auto-attack hit% is capped at 85%.

[FluffNStuff]

A pure lv71 INT mage can have 63% crit unbuffed with persistence/red dragon set, 2crit ring and fierce mage face.

And crit isn't capped (although more than 100% is useless), for skill dmg at least. 100% crit basically means that IF you hit, you'll crit. For auto-attack, your crit would be 85% when buffed, because auto-attack hit% is capped at 85%.

Why do people think hit is capped at 85%? That simply is not true.

[Zeus]

Why do people think hit is capped at 85%? That simply is not true.

Physiologic's math.

[FluffNStuff]

Physiologic's math.

Which is wrong ... well not wrong, he just does not take into account all variables. This going to sound crazy, but he did not 'miss' 15%, the enemy dodged 15%. I spoke to Cinco a long time ago about why a player would miss if they have over a 100% hit, and his response (other then debuff, which could be at play here) is that hit percentage is used in the dodge equation and dodge is used in the hit equation. I will attempt to put an experiment together this weekend to test this.

[Zeus]

Which is wrong ... well not wrong, he just does not take into account all variables. This going to sound crazy, but he did not 'miss' 15%, the enemy dodged 15%. I spoke to Cinco a long time ago about why a player would miss if they have over a 100% hit, and his response (other then debuff, which could be at play here) is that hit percentage is used in the dodge equation and dodge is used in the hit equation. I will attempt to put an experiment together this weekend to test this.

I'd be happy to see this. I always wondered why I never saw myself missing with auto attack. :) This should be ground breaking. :P

THAT WOULD EXPLAIN WHY IN PVP MAGES DODGE SO MUCH WHEN VS. A BEAR!

[Jewelsofjane]

Ya'all just fried my brain. I might just be the most mathematically ignorant person in the game. I literally play by how it feels. Ask rush.... I can't tell you how many times I introduced him to a different build or combo and he states that it doesn't make any sense or add up, but it works lol.

It is nice though that ya'all do the thinking and post it.


So I want to say thank you

[Zeus]

Ya'all just fried my brain. I might just be the most mathematically ignorant person in the game. I literally play by how it feels. Ask rush.... I can't tell you how many times I introduced him to a different build or combo and he states that it doesn't make any sense or add up, but it works lol.

It is nice though that ya'all do the thinking and post it.


So I want to say thank you

Simply put, the higher your hit percent, the less factor dodge plays. It's why, even when bears have 80+ dodge, it doesn't seem like 80+ dodge when vs a bird. The bird has 200+ hit percent to counter that dodge.

It's also why, when vs a mage, a mage dodges a bear's beckon & slashes A LOT. 112% hit is not enough to make that 20+ dodge on a mage unnoticeable, thus explaining why you see those "unexplainably lucky" dodge streaks on a mage vs a bear.

[JaytB]

Which is wrong ... well not wrong, he just does not take into account all variables. This going to sound crazy, but he did not 'miss' 15%, the enemy dodged 15%. I spoke to Cinco a long time ago about why a player would miss if they have over a 100% hit, and his response (other then debuff, which could be at play here) is that hit percentage is used in the dodge equation and dodge is used in the hit equation. I will attempt to put an experiment together this weekend to test this.

Below you'll find Physio's post, the one I based my simplified remark on about hitting 85 times out of 100... I understand that dodge and misses should be viewed as separate, but in the end 85 hits out of 100 is 85% hit in my view and the best estimate I have seen on these forums.

Anyway, looking forward of you coming up with a better experiment on seeing what the exact hit% would be, taking dodge/hit% into account :)

Below's the post from Physio...
----

Spacetime Studios: Dodge (by Physiologic)
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showpost.php?p=251351
This is my understanding of how PL's roll system works. A roll system is how one action is affected by several variables, and once one roll is completed, the second part of the system kicks in, and so on. The roll system is applied in many types of games (not just limited to MMOs) that have variable stats/attributes that affect the system in some way or another.

When you attack an enemy, the game follows a specific algorithm that determines the outcome of the attack:
1. You will MISS the attack
2. The enemy will DODGE the attack
3. You will damage the enemy
4. You will critically damage the enemy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Hit% roll is based off of your hit%. There is a probable cap to this value (<100% despite your hit% value).
Enemy dodge % roll is an unknown variable for each enemy.
Crit% roll is based off of your crit. There is no cap for crit atm.
Critical damage = effective damage x2
Effective damage = damage - enemy armor

I did not include weapon proc in this, as they activate at a low random occurrence. The proc most likely adds at the very end, after damage/critical damage is calculated.

This is my current basic understanding of the roll system. I think each given attribute (hit%, dodge, crit%) is independent in each part of the system.

Bringing back the old crit chart up:

Void set, with Focus (+25% hit, +25% Crit): Hit% 165, Crit 46, Damage 180-225

146 146 151 dodge 119 141 109 235C dodge 119
122 273C 269C 114 241C 257C dodge 122 dodge 114
dodge 132 141 141 147 149 254C miss 308C 135
273C 271C 203C 279C 270C 273C 302C 114 142 138
256C 132 262C dodge 139 296C 253C 151 225C 133
116 110 253C 223C 118 282C 122 142 miss 116
127 133 283C 307C 116 134 miss 146 129 142
miss 153 141 279C 226C 297C dodge 310C 265C miss
201C dodge 130 238C 135 dodge 295C 119 223C dodge
252C 264C 149 203C 262C 118 152 142 118 300C

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 15
Successful hits: 85

Non-criticals landed: 47 (55.29%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-153
Total non-critical damage: 6205
Average non-critical damage: 132.0

Criticals landed: 38 (44.7%)
Critical damage range: 201-310
Total critical damage: 9963
Average critical damage: 262.2

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 16,168

Crits landed was 44.7%, very close to the crit value of 46. We know hit% is capped. There were 10 dodges.

When crit and hit is lowered in the next example:

Void set, Without Focus: Hit% 140, Crit 21, Damage 180-225

132 230C 122 151 141 123 118 145 308C 112
251C dodge 145 119 117 124 129 dodge 121 116
116 118 131 133 120 123 147 142 dodge 130
144 dodge 119 149 miss 124 miss 134 128 dodge
dodge 112 142 136 134 112 206C 119 117 128
151 279C 128 115 287C 221C 143 miss 128 300C
133 147 198C 121 291C 141 255C dodge 131 115
dodge miss 274C 153 116 133 109 126 129 132
154 129 113 131 dodge dodge 113 121 dodge 125
144 127 131 dodge 130 224C 111 130 257C 126

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 16
Successful hits: 84

Non-criticals landed: 70 (83.33%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 9009
Average non-critical damage: 128.7

Criticals landed: 14 (16.67%)
Critical damage range: 198-300
Total critical damage: 3581
Average critical damage: 255.8

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 12,590

You get 12 dodges, which is a pretty insignificant change from 10 dodges.

Thus why I believe this is the current system at work. If there's more complex things at work I would love to know!

---

Edit: something went wrong pasting the article, hope it's there now...

[FluffNStuff]

I will post a new thread sometime this weekend with full details since I need more research in some aspects (am finding that when hit drops below a hundred and dodge rises they appear to amplify each other) but I can give you a preview. With over 500 shots combined taken at 100% hit against both 3% and 13% dodge, I only missed once. I can safely say there is NO HIT PERCENTAGE CAP. And you can quote me on that.

[Bunnyshoota]

Wait, So If your damage is <100, does that mean crits actually hinder you?

Mindblown.

[Whirlzap]

I will post a new thread sometime this weekend with full details since I need more research in some aspects (am finding that when hit drops below a hundred and dodge rises they appear to amplify each other) but I can give you a preview. With over 500 shots combined taken at 100% hit against both 3% and 13% dodge, I only missed once. I can safely say there is NO HIT PERCENTAGE CAP. And you can quote me on that.

And that is one of the reasons why Bird does not have OP dodge or crit like bear or mage.
It's high hit % combined with a near 100% critical when buffed can take on a bear's dodge.
People say bird is weakest in PvP, or rather "underpowered".
Bird isn't really that extremely underpowered though.

Hit having no cap seems pretty obvious if you simply think about it.
Now we need to test for a dodge cap.

[Seminole]

You guys are ignorant, hit percent does
not effect dodge at all. You can have 600 hit percent and your opponent can have 50 dodge and will still dodge 50 percent of the time. Only reason it seems like you are dodging less is because most likely you have been debuffed by roots or knightmare. Even a mages capped Ice spell decreases your dodge slightly if it hits

[JaytB]

I will post a new thread sometime this weekend with full details since I need more research in some aspects (am finding that when hit drops below a hundred and dodge rises they appear to amplify each other) but I can give you a preview. With over 500 shots combined taken at 100% hit against both 3% and 13% dodge, I only missed once. I can safely say there is NO HIT PERCENTAGE CAP. And you can quote me on that.

You only missed once, but how many shots were dodged? I'm especially interested in the dodges from your 3% dodge experiment (but also for the 13% dodge one).

[FluffNStuff]

You only missed once, but how many shots were dodged? I'm especially interested in the dodges from your 3% dodge experiment (but also for the 13% dodge one).

I have to repeat the low dodge experiments to match the method of later experiments. Latest were against 19 dodge and was getting between 18 and 23 percent with each 200 hit attempt. Was alternating between 100 and 94 hit. Believe I was actually slightly under a 100 though as I was registering around 99.7 hit on it. Don't have full results with me ( heading out of town) but I want to get my testers to 51 before I post final results. They are 45/47 now but at 51 I can use the high dodge greens for more testing. Oh, the 94 hit was registering between 89 and 92.

[JaytB]

I have to repeat the low dodge experiments to match the method of later experiments. Latest were against 19 dodge and was getting between 18 and 23 percent with each 200 hit attempt. Was alternating between 100 and 94 hit. Believe I was actually slightly under a 100 though as I was registering around 99.7 hit on it. Don't have full results with me ( heading out of town) but I want to get my testers to 51 before I post final results. They are 45/47 now but at 51 I can use the high dodge greens for more testing. Oh, the 94 hit was registering between 89 and 92.

Interesting results. Looks like you were right about hit% not being capped to 85% for auto-attack. I'm really looking forward to the final test results, and how dodge vs hit factors in in all of this.

If you need a 51 'crash test dummy', I'd be happy to help on my 51 bird. Just shoot me a PM :)

[FluffNStuff]

This is the chart from the 19 dodge experiments ( lower dodge experiments were done a different way, will repeat later). The way it worked was I kept attacking in batches of 40 till I got the number of hits marking the number of dodges/misses along the way. I repeated 5 times for each experiment to get 200 hits. I used the level 27 heavy crossbow since that has a 1.4 attack speed to make it easy to do the counts. For the dodge equation, I did not count the misses in the total shots, but for the hit equation, I did. I did this because I do not feel you can dodge a shot that is missed, so equations were:

Hit Percentage = ((1 - misses) / (misses + hits + dodges)) * 100
Dodge Percentage = ((Dodges) / (Dodges + hits)) * 100

Now something that jumps out is that when the hit was lowered, the dodge percentage also dropped. I would expect the number of dodges to drop as it did, since less shots landed, so less chances to dodge, but I did not expect the percentage to drop. This is why I need to run more tests when I get the time, and why I am still posting here and not starting a new thread yet.

16146