The Mystery of the Dark Legends Pentagram

[MightyMicah]

Introduction

Hello spacetime community and thank you for dropping by my thread! I wanted to start with a little explanation for what this thread is about. The other day I was showing a friend of mine Dark Legends. He wasn't sure if he wanted to play it or not because both of us aren't too fond of blood, and I had mentioned to him that there was a lot of blood in the game. I began playing the game and he was watching me. Then, all of the sudden, he says, "Whoa, I'm definitely not playing that game now." I was puzzled at this and asked him why. He then began to explain that he saw a demonic symbol in the game. Both him and I are of the Christian faith so you could see how this could maybe present a problem for us. Anyways, I had never noticed any "demonic symbol" so I asked him where it was. Here are some pictures that show the symbol he was referring to.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/35D784D7-E1A4-4E29-B3EF-C16EB88D5703-2590-0000041FF77A385B.jpg http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/02C2B129-64F2-4B8B-B2AA-DE302874C868-2590-0000041FFC0910AD.jpg

Now, as far as I had known, this innocent looking star was nothing more than a star created by the design team to look awesome. However, this is entirely not the case.

The Pentagram

Because the idea of a demonic symbol in this epic vampire game was somewhat unsettling to me, I decided to do some research on this strange symbol. The following is a link to some very insightful information on this symbol called "Pentagram."

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram.html

Here are some images of an actual Pentagram. You can tell with the second picture where Dark Legends got its design from :D

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/973DDB02-6740-4D36-B45E-0994F5FB3D05-2590-00000423F2995232.jpg http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/09064ADF-B7EE-469D-BEE2-DE74A03827DC-2590-00000423F0B88725.jpg

If you don't have time to read all of this information, I'll try to summarize as best I can. Essentially, this symbol has meant a vast variety of things throughout generations aging all the way back to ancient Greece, and perhaps even before that. It has represented many many different religious ideas from different cults and religious groups in general, such as a guard against evil, a heavenly body, a symbol of trade, a Wiccan symbol for the spirit and the elements, and much, much more. In our modern age, however, this is what is come to represent-

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/469B3A71-A30A-487F-B4BC-DF35866736F2-2590-00000423EE98CF11.jpg

"It simply represents what the user wants it to represent." Interesting statement. In fact, I'm not so certain I agree. If you were to ask someone fairly clueless on the subject, what they think the Pentagram is, they would probably say something to the extent of, "Isn't it some kind of demon or witchcraft thing?" Either way, regardless of what it has come to represent, there should be one thing you have noticed. It has nothing to do with vampires! So why put it in a predominantly vampire game, especially when it is so commonly misinterpreted as a demonic themed symbol? Personally, I don't think it should be used. However, there another symbol which would fit this game perfectly.

A quick thing to point out is that the star used in Dark Legends appears to be the one pointing down, rather than up. This is noteworthy because the Pentagram pointed down is much more closely related to Satanistic cults and, well basically just worse stuff in general. However I noticed that, in Dark Legends, the star changes from level to level. Sometimes it's pointed up, and sometimes it's pointed down. Either way it is still a Pentagram and as such doesn't really matter whether it's point is up or down.

The Vampire Star

Here is a picture of what I think should be used instead of the pentagram

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/3292F354-EB46-48A8-85A5-64E26E2353A9-2590-00000423F364A653.jpg

While I was not able to look up any kind of history for this particular symbol, mainly because there are hundreds of vampire symbols, it does represent vampires. In fact, most of the symbols I was able to look up said nothing more than "a symbol representing vampires or vampiric activity." Now I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

Final Conclusion

So you may be wondering why I care so much. You may think "so there's a demonic star. Big deal." However there are really two main reasons why I wish that it would be replaced.

1. (reason one deleted)

2. There is no apparent reason! The pentagram simply doesn't fit the mood. You are a vampire fighting evil. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the storyline has you hunting down some demonic possessor lady named "Jessa." In other words, you're trying to kill someone for demon possessing people and yet your victory symbol at the end of each level is...a symbol closely related to demonic themed things? It would make so much more sense to have a vampire star at the end of each level. Wouldn't you agree?

EDIT~
For the future reference of this thread let me clarify. I'm not here to say this game sucks because it has a "demonic symbol" and I'm a Christian who hates demon symbols. I think this game is amazing! And I love researching interesting topics, such as this Pentagram. As such I decided to post here for two reasons.

1. To enlighten others, like myself, who like to learn interesting facts
2. To point out that the symbol itself does not fit the game.

Obviously I was wrong about point two, thanks to Carapace. :-)

Lastly, whether the symbol was in there or not, I would still play the game. It is ONLY a symbol. And it is ONLY a game. Please keep chat on topic, and civil.

Let me know what y'all think!
~MM

[Carapace]

Very interesting thread!

The original idea is that the vampires in Carvina are tied by their nature to the occult and "Dark Arts", but the symbol you're pointing out has more than one meaning than just a demonic pentagram. In terms of Dark legends for the player it's intended as a pentacle, and not a pentagram. The orientation of course shifts as the player does, but from a purely design standpoint the symbols used in the magics and mythology of vampirism and the occult weighed our decision to use it as an aesthetic. I assure you there is no desired intention to offend based on the symbolism found in the game, but certain elements feel appropriate in the context of the game.

Pentacles, are the inversion of a pentagram often referenced by Pagan history and the Druids (which is why that event made sense for Dark legends! :vsmile:)

The breakdown of a pentacle is as follows, and a connection should be seen between the elements and abilities your vamp gets as well as the general progression of the character.

I hope the image attaches correctly!

15967

[Kaytar]

They don't force you to play.

[KillaSkillz]

Since i don't want to type a long drawn out explanation for information that can be pulled easily off of wikipedia, check wikipedia. It is a symbol used for a very long time by many cultures and religions. Even christianity. It is used as a protection symbol and symbolizes the 5 wounds of christ (left and right feet, left and right hands, and the wound to his side).

It has roots in many cultures and every religion. people that don't know their own religions well, commonly confuse this symbol being satanic because of rock bands that used it (remember rock, even the mild stuff from the 1950 was considered the devils music).

that symbol is deeply rooted in the cultures of everyone on the planet and generally symbolizes the 4 elements fire ,earth, wind, water, and the fifth at the top, spirit with the circle representing the uniting all. Or as a symbol of man, 2 arms, 2 legs, and the head with the circle representing the spirit that unites all the parts into the whole (the spirit).

Regardless people will see and think whatever they please on any given subject. One persons cartoon mickey mouse, is another persons devil,
or a symbol of capitalism.

[MightyMicah]

They don't force you to play.

Please read the whole thread before responding. It was not my intention in the least to wine and complain. I simply did not see how the pentagram fit the game. That's it.

@Killaskillz please see reason number two.

[Carapace]

Like many things, there are open interpretations regarding many facets of symbolism and religious context. MightyMicah brings up a very valid comparison, as do myself and KillaSkillz. Let's be wary not to let this thread derail as it will be closed pretty quickly should it begin to go anywhere but the general discussion at hand. :vsmile:

[Kaytar]

They don't force you to play.

Please read the whole thread before responding. It was not my intention in the least to wine and complain. I simply did not see how the pentagram fit the game. That's it.

@Killaskillz please see reason number two.What makes you think I didn't read the whole thing? You said it was insulting. Don't like it? Don't play. You dont have to

[Growwle]

Very interesting thread!

The original idea is that the vampires in Carvina are tied by their nature to the occult and "Dark Arts", but the symbol you're pointing out has more than one meaning than just a demonic pentagram. In terms of Dark legends for the player it's intended as a pentacle, and not a pentagram. The orientation of course shifts as the player does, but from a purely design standpoint the symbols used in the magics and mythology of vampirism and the occult weighed our decision to use it as an aesthetic. I assure you there is no desired intention to offend based on the symbolism found in the game, but certain elements feel appropriate in the context of the game.

Pentacles, are the inversion of a pentagram often referenced by Pagan history and the Druids (which is why that event made sense for Dark legends! :vsmile:)

The breakdown of a pentacle is as follows, and a connection should be seen between the elements and abilities your vamp gets as well as the general progression of the character.

I hope the image attaches correctly!

15967

Thank you for clarifying. While I am not a whiccan or anything like that, I still detest fear based on ignorance. Symbols are nothing but symbols and seeing a symbol in a game or movie will not make you less of an [insert religion here]. The character you control in the game is not you and probably would not share your beliefs if it were real.

[KillaSkillz]

Please read the whole thread before responding. It was not my intention in the least to wine and complain. I simply did not see how the pentagram fit the game. That's it.

@Killaskillz please see reason number two.

Well ok, if reason #2, you want it replaced because there is no reason, then why even open it up for discussion and ask what others think on the subject? I was under the assumption this was going to be a discussion on the symbol. Next time send an email to support if you want them to remove something instead.

Good day.

[WinterKate]

Nice thread Micah. I am a Christian too. A Catholic, btw. I did not know the meaning of the symbol, but thanks for enlightening Micah and Cara. But while we have differing opinions about this, it all boils down to how interpret and take these things: if we allow it to affect us, or if we allow it to alter with our current faith, beliefs or practices. People will think of the pentagram differently. Cause we each have different roots. We cannot force someone to like or hate something.

I guess we cannot all agree into a solution for this one, I think. Since either way, it would be unfair for either those who want the pentagram as it is, or those who want to change it. This is a very sensitive issue and should be discussed with utmost care.

I am not against any of you reading this. Maybe, we just have to respect each other's opinions, cause if this thread goes too far, it may turn to a flame thread, or worse, people may use this opportunity to turn against each other, bashing each other's religion or faith or beliefs or even our values.

Let's not hate each other. After all, there's a new cap. :)

*I'm still allergic to flame. Don't. :)

[StompArtist]

As a satanist I find this thread offensive and requesting a lock.

[morfic]

Meh. Its nothing to worry about.

Sounds similar to the southpark episode where all the different religions ruined the christmas play for everyone. One religion didn't like christmas trees. One didn't like jesus. One didn't like the nativity scene... and so on, and so on. It doesn't really matter if a game sports a symbol you dislike.

If you were playing Skyrim, and you came across a christian cross, would you ask bethesda to take the cross down, because it didn't fit into the world and their religions? Or rather... if you did, would you expect any change?

They are games made by a company, the company chooses a piece of art for a reason, doesn't matter how anyone feels about that piece of art, don't nitpick! ;p


Also, I was going to thank/add rep to Stompartist. But it seems my thank button is gone. boooo :p

[WinterKate]

As a satanist I find this thread offensive and requesting a lock.

This is what I am talking about. Differing opinions. This is fine for some, offensive for others.

Thanks Stomp for giving your take on this.

[MightyMicah]

Thank you WinterKate for your comment. I really hoped people would give their opinion on the entire thing. Not on the slight mention of religion. Lesson learned.

For the future reference of this thread let me clarify. I'm not here to say this game sucks because it has a "demonic symbol" and I'm a Christian who hates demon symbols. I think this game is amazing! And I love researching interesting topics, such as this Pentagram. As such I decided to post here for two reasons.

1. To enlighten others, like myself, who like to learn interesting facts
2. To point out that the symbol itself does not fit the game.

Obviously I was wrong about point two, thanks to Carapace. :-)

Lastly, whether the symbol was in there or not, I would still play the game. It is ONLY a symbol. And it is ONLY a game. Please keep chat on topic, and civil.

Thank you
~MM

[WinterKate]

I don't know how others will see point 2 up. It will hurt others, I think. But thank you for sharing your insight Micah. This is an interesting thread, and yet very sensitive.

[StompArtist]

I am curious Micah: Any opinion about angel wings and halos on bears or pointy eared creatures?

[Growwle]

If you look at something and it offends you, stop looking at it, quite simple. Please don't get people worked up and try to get the game changed. I personally don't understand the connection between vampires and the pentacle, but it is part of the DL ambience. Vampires are soulless and inherently damned, sometimes by no fault of their own, that should be as offensive as a pentacle / pentagram.

[MightyMicah]

I am curious Micah: Any opinion about angel wings and halos on bears or pointy eared creatures?

I don't find that offensive. I don't find that interesting either. Naturally I wouldn't start a thread about it. I am curious as to why you seem so offended that I would start a thread like this. I assure you it was not my intention to offend anyone.

@Growwle actually I believe vampires are mythical creatures, whereas I believe demons are very real. And very interesting. :D

[Cahaun]

Interesting. I do remember the druids from Britain whenever I think of them. I'll have to look a bit more up on this stuff.

[Growwle]

I am curious Micah: Any opinion about angel wings and halos on bears or pointy eared creatures?

I don't find that offensive. I don't find that interesting either. Naturally I wouldn't start a thread about it. I am curious as to why you seem so offended that I would start a thread like this. I assure you it was not my intention to offend anyone.

@Growwle actually I believe vampires are mythical creatures, whereas I believe demons are very real. And very interesting. :D

You are entitled to your beliefs. I personally believe demons and devils are fictional embodiments of human behavior.

[MightyMicah]

Interesting. I do remember the druids from Britain whenever I think of them. I'll have to look a bit more up on this stuff.

It really is worth a read, I promise! I was reading all of the information on that stuff going, "Dang, this is good stuff!" then I decide to share it with everyone :D

[StompArtist]

actually I believe vampires are mythical creatures, whereas I believe demons are very real. And very interesting. :D

Must be nice to be able to pick and choose your faith according to your likes and dislikes. I am done with this thread.

[MightyMicah]

Must be nice to be able to pick and choose your faith according to your likes and dislikes. I am done with this thread.

Uhm...dude Vamps aren't in the Bible. I don't just pick and choose...

[StompArtist]

Leviticus 17:10-14

[Cahaun]

Leviticus 17:10-14
Good excerpt choice

[MightyMicah]

Leviticus 17:10-14

I highly doubt just because God commanded them not to eat blood that that meant there were vampires around. Eating blood was looked on (and still is kinda) as a detestable act. Let's continue this in pm because we are insanely off topic.

[Aaroniero Arruruerie]

As a satanist I find this thread offensive and requesting a lock.

you're the greatest troll I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, never forget that.

[WinterKate]

Leviticus 17:10-14

Leviticus 17:10-14
New International Version (NIV)
10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[a] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

13 “‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

Footnotes:
Leviticus 17:11 Or atonement by the life in the blood

Taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+17%3A10-14&version=NIV

-Now, I understand.

[Aaroniero Arruruerie]

Leviticus 17:10-14
New International Version (NIV)
10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[a] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

13 “‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

Footnotes:
Leviticus 17:11 Or atonement by the life in the blood

Taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+17%3A10-14&version=NIV

-Now, I understand.

Before this turns more religious-ey than it already is, is that saying that it is a sin to suck the marrow out of a bone? cuz KFC makes really good chicken :(

[HunterSLAYER]

I wonder why "religious" people(not in this thtead) are so obsessed with the meaning of the symbol.

I'm also a Christian.

:)

Sent from my ASUS Nexus 7 via Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

[MightyMicah]

I wonder why "religious" people(not in this thtead) are so obsessed with the meaning of the symbol.

I'm also a Christian.

:)

Sent from my ASUS Nexus 7 via Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

Thanks you so much for including "(not in this thread)"!!! You're the first person who understands that I find it very interesting, but not a problem. Lol I wonder that myself. It's only a symbol you know?

[Aaroniero Arruruerie]

seems like a celtic thing, not religious per se, ummm cultural? that works?

[WinterKate]

Before this turns more religious-ey than it already is, is that saying that it is a sin to suck the marrow out of a bone? cuz KFC makes really good chicken :(

Now, we're talking vamps. Lol.

[BloodGoddess]

I am a Jehovah's witness.

[CodyBearr]

Very cool pictures posted of the star... I saved the dev's pic he posted, very cool

[Aaroniero Arruruerie]

Very cool pictures posted of the star... I saved the dev's pic he posted, very cool

I know, right? what awesome handwriting :D

[KillaSkillz]

Very interesting thread!

The original idea is that the vampires in Carvina are tied by their nature to the occult and "Dark Arts", but the symbol you're pointing out has more than one meaning than just a demonic pentagram. In terms of Dark legends for the player it's intended as a pentacle, and not a pentagram. The orientation of course shifts as the player does, but from a purely design standpoint the symbols used in the magics and mythology of vampirism and the occult weighed our decision to use it as an aesthetic. I assure you there is no desired intention to offend based on the symbolism found in the game, but certain elements feel appropriate in the context of the game.

Pentacles, are the inversion of a pentagram often referenced by Pagan history and the Druids (which is why that event made sense for Dark legends! :vsmile:)

The breakdown of a pentacle is as follows, and a connection should be seen between the elements and abilities your vamp gets as well as the general progression of the character.

I hope the image attaches correctly!

15967

Question: why a lowercase u over the word fire, and the different I in the vowels and not in the words? interesting.Lol!

[MightyMicah]

Question: why a lowercase u over the word fire, and the different I in the vowels and not in the words? interesting.Lol!

Hmm good observation!

[Growwle]

Leviticus 17:10-14
New International Version (NIV)
10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[a] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

13 “‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

Footnotes:
Leviticus 17:11 Or atonement by the life in the blood

Taken from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+17%3A10-14&version=NIV

-Now, I understand.

Before this turns more religious-ey than it already is, is that saying that it is a sin to suck the marrow out of a bone? cuz KFC makes really good chicken :(

Then everyone who eats broth or stock is damned.

[Rare]

Before this turns more religious-ey than it already is, is that saying that it is a sin to suck the marrow out of a bone? cuz KFC makes really good chicken :(

That's not real marrow in KFC chicken. I think its mostly oatmeal. Like taco bell beef.

[minamoo]

THIS IS WELL SAID. People have to realize that words and symbols are equivocal. That is to say they take on meaning....pentagram has it's roots so far up everything that scholars still debate to this very day its genesis.In fact some "occult" members wont use it because they fear it has it's roots in Christianity (star of David.)

Either way OP, I too am Christian and had this very same issues. My mate saw it and backed out right away...So my advice is, if this hinders your spiritual walk, please refrain from playing it. If it doesn't then go kick some monster's buttocks.


Since i don't want to type a long drawn out explanation for information that can be pulled easily off of wikipedia, check wikipedia. It is a symbol used for a very long time by many cultures and religions. Even christianity. It is used as a protection symbol and symbolizes the 5 wounds of christ (left and right feet, left and right hands, and the wound to his side).

It has roots in many cultures and every religion. people that don't know their own religions well, commonly confuse this symbol being satanic because of rock bands that used it (remember rock, even the mild stuff from the 1950 was considered the devils music).

that symbol is deeply rooted in the cultures of everyone on the planet and generally symbolizes the 4 elements fire ,earth, wind, water, and the fifth at the top, spirit with the circle representing the uniting all. Or as a symbol of man, 2 arms, 2 legs, and the head with the circle representing the spirit that unites all the parts into the whole (the spirit).

Regardless people will see and think whatever they please on any given subject. One persons cartoon mickey mouse, is another persons devil,
or a symbol of capitalism.

[minamoo]

I swear you did NOT read this passage. LOL!!! but as a Brit that's Christian and eats black pudding...WOE UNTO TO MY SOUL. J/K black pudding is nasty!!!



Then everyone who eats broth or stock is damned.

[minamoo]

The best marow is found in the shin...like osso bucco....YUMMMY!!! ....AND KFC hot waainnngggs are off the chizzle....YUMMINESS!
That's not real marrow in KFC . I think its mostly oatmeal. Like taco bell beef.

[morfic]

Then, all of the sudden, he says, "Whoa, I'm definitely not playing that game now." I was puzzled at this and asked him why. He then began to explain that he saw a demonic symbol in the game. Both him and I are of the Christian faith so you could see how this could maybe present a problem for us.

Because the idea of a demonic symbol in this epic vampire game was somewhat unsettling to me

It has nothing to do with vampires! So why put it in a predominantly vampire game, especially when it is so commonly misinterpreted as a demonic themed symbol? Personally, I don't think it should be used.

A quick thing to point out is that the star used in Dark Legends appears to be the one pointing down, rather than up. This is noteworthy because the Pentagram pointed down is much more closely related to Satanistic cults and, well basically just worse stuff in general.

So you may be wondering why I care so much. You may think "so there's a demonic star. Big deal." However there are really two main reasons why I wish that it would be replaced.


Sorry the thread got derailed MM, but the problem came from the above (and the stuff edited out). Your post had strong religious undertones backing your reasoning for wanting the symbol changed. Despite how it was worded, it came across exactly like, "I am a christian and this demonic star upsets me and my friends, please consider changing it".

I know you clarified in your reasoning that this was not the case, but it kind of seems transparent. Just like if a pastor went into a book store, and asked the owner to remove a pagan/demonic book from their stock because it didn't "fit the mood" of the store. Even if he assured the store owner that it was not for religious reasons, no one would believe it.

[Aaroniero Arruruerie]

Sorry the thread got derailed MM
The thread was never derailed, this is still about what we can do within the confines of christian morals. Many arguments have erupted over the interpretation of the bible, and has caused many rifts in the faith, like the star's interpretation and what we may or may not eat. So technically, its still on topic. As for the thread, Micah wanted an answer, he wasn't making a request. Even I've commented on the theme having an occult feeling before, but someone (Stompartist maybe) told me it was a cultural thing.

[MightyMicah]

Lol bone marrow...the passage was referring to cannibalism genius! Hahaha...

Oh and my friend got a good laugh at urqui's post! As did I :D

@Morfic I understand people took it the wrong way. That's why I told Kaytar to read the whole thing. I assumed he skimmed through and jumped to conclusions. (of course I jumped to conclusions in thinking that O.o) Honestly, though, I think people were just making a mountain out of a moll hill. If you read it again carefully, you'll realize I had not the slightest intention of shoving my beliefs in everyone's face and changing a video game because it "offends me."

[Survivorfan]

Not sure but it looks like the symbol from sorcerers apprentice. To lazy to look up

[minamoo]

* Awwwwww...offers Micah a quick Christianity hug. LOL :adoration:

Micah , In the era we live, you only have to mention the word God or Jesus and this will be concluded as SHOVING your religion onto someone.

[Reyven]

Btw, the star of David has six points, not five.

Each star has a different symbolic meaning that can be interpreted in any way one wishes, yet the foundation will remain the same.

Also, as a symbol, Christ's blood, in the form of wine, which is consumed on a regular basis.

Symbols have a lot of meaning behind them, as a flag does for each of our countries.

[Phoenician1]

Very interesting thread. Good comments.

My take is, when we call something offensive, we are saying something about ourselves in most cases, rather than about the thing that we are offended by. In other countries around the world it's different, but here in 'the West', our governments allow their citizenry great latitude in expression, and we 'ban' relatively few things. I think the hope is, authorities will only limit expressions that a large majority of us feel offended by, rather than the government telling it's people, 'we find this offensive, how you feel about it is unimportant, we're banning it because we don't like it and that's the end of it'. For that reason the argument often made to other citizens by many folks in the West who find some object or expression offensive is 'don't you all agree that this is offensive?' as they try and gather enough support to persuade authorities to limit or outright ban something. MM, I didn't get the impression you were trying to make such an argument.

Despite Carapace's clear description of how the decision to use the symbol was arrived at (thanks for that, Cara) I think it's difficult to separate the idea of religion from any discussion of such symbology. I think somebody mentioned the use of satanic symbology in some rock albums and artwork. I love rock, but I think you could make a strong argument in such cases that the symbology was being used to intentionally try and offend. In some of those cases...okay, you win, I'm offended. I certainly don't think that was the case here in DL. I'm a Christian, but my beliefs are internal, and in general I don't (or try not to) take offense at outward things. According to my beliefs, God gave Man free will, so I'm loathe to step on somebody else's right to exercise that free will, and say or do as they wish. I didn't come to faith in God because of anything that a man created, and likewise I don't think anything that a man (or woman, sorry) created will take me away from that faith.

In the end, I agree with the argument others have already made; if something offends me, here in my country the responsibility is on me to walk away, not on someone else to change their work to suit me.