My opinions on AL vs. PL

[WhoIsThis]

After an extended absence, I have (most likely temporarily) returned to the world of STS. This is a post specifically addressed at the "oldie" population.

I have noticed that among the oldie population, there is a significant amount of optimism around the launch of AL. Many are "leaving" PL for AL or at least reducing their time spent significantly on PL. The 2 largest reasons?



1. The itemization of PL is not what many players would have liked, for PvP, and in the case of PvE, the endless "zerging" through via the elixir

At the moment, it's impossible to comment on which classes will excel or under-perform, so no conclusions can yet be drawn.

Zerging through the dungeon zones though, will be an inevitable outcome. Elixirs represent a solution that is accessible and for many players, a viable alternative to learning to play a class properly. Even for those that do, the realities of real time, such as not having enough time in life or wanting to go PvP asap may cause otherwise good players to go through the dungeons. Unfortunately, this has consequences - the incentive to be good at a game has declined.

If you were to go back to around the age of the Sewers, say summer of 2011, what would have thought held in store? Back then, the dominant sets were Mega mage/enchanted, Fury/Fortified, and Raid Roach/Custom. Their statistics were consistent with the PL lore and at the same time represented arguably the peak of PL balance in both PvP and PvE. (Due to the sheer volume of elixirs being used, it's impossible to say whether PvE is balanced or not around the 3 classes, but PvP, certainly is not.). Would you have predicted the emergence of luck based PvP, where dodge percentage became the dominant arbiter of PvP? Or the re-usage of old content in Nuri? The same thing is the most probable outcome in AL.



2. The quality of player

When PL was young (in 2010), it was a much friendlier, much more mature place. Trolling was rarer, the majority of posts were useful, humorous, or contained an opinion that could at least be backed by some fact. In game, the average skill level too was much higher and in general, Pugs could be expected to play their classes with some degree of competency. Then the Mynas generation happened. IMO, PL arguably peaked around the time of Alien Oasis III and the Sewers. Today in the PL forums, in terms of percentage of useful posts to say, posts of neutral or negative value, I'd put the ratio at around 5% useful, 95% not so useful. Now before one accuses me of viewing the past through "rose colored glasses", I am fully aware that in that era, many of the features that players now take for granted, such as guilds were not present. But it was a different game, a different community, and one where, regrettably, many of the top players have moved on.

It's important to remember that the same demographic that plays PL inevitably will migrate to AL, assuming the game is a success. If not, they most probable outcome is that they will stay on PL. And once the migration occurs, the same thing will happen - AL will have it's Mynas/Power-leveled era. From there, things will turn out to be more or less the same as they were on PL.

As a game becomes more mainstream, it seems the quality of persona attracted declines. Back in the 1990s, internet trolling was a very rare phenomenon. It was dominated by what in today's world would be considered geeks. But as the the internet became more popular, it attracted ... everyone. And with the anonymity that it granted, well things changed. This had consequences, both good and bad. Good in that it allowed for greater communication, cooperation, exchange of ideas/knowledge, and challenged many authoritarian societies. But anonymity also brings out the worst in many people, giving people the ability to do whatever they pleased for relatively small consequences (at most a perma ban). You can see this on any forum or in any MMO today. One could say that the same thing happened with PL. It used to be that the idea of playing an MMO on a phone was considered odd; today it has widespread acceptance and with it ... the consequences, both good and bad.

In the case of an MMO, there are other consequences of an MMO being more mainstream. For example, many PC MMOs now struggle with people selling in game accounts for real money and in game gold for real money. (STS' games so far have not yet reached that level, but I'd imagine if mobile gaming truly took off, it would be a problem). It's complicated. On one hand, a game becoming more popular means the potential for more players, some of which will prove truly outstanding. But on the other ... a steadily declining quality of player.







The PL of 2010 is over ... AL is a different game and will be played by a different playerbase.

[lilweezy]

so the question is to play or not to play?

[WhoIsThis]

so the question is to play or not to play?

That's only something you can answer for yourself. Try it. You may like it. Or it may not be for you.

But do so knowing the game that it will become.


Edit:

What I am saying is, it will suffer from the same flaws that PL suffered. Poor balance, elixir use trumping over skill (an free to play but pay to win PvE), a player base that will grow less mature with each successive generation, and a dev team much more hostile to feedback than PL was in its early days. If you find this acceptable, I would encourage you to try it. But if you don't, let this post be ... illuminating.

[Riccits]

When SL and DL was released so many said "Ill quit PL for ..." afterwards many came back.

But how WhoisThis said, STS games are STS games and wont change business strategie..doenst matter wich Legends u play
Free to Play but Pay to Win.

[Kanozaki]

What many players are grasping on the hope that maybe this game would not go down the same path . I saw it happen in PL and saw it unfold in SL as well.

[Ephesius]

Its all about pvp, there limit the stuff you can do in pve but limitless stuff you can do in pvp

[Mothwing]

Loved every word you said, because that's exactly what I feel PL has turned into. I, for one, will probably be leaving PL for good, depending on how AL turns out.

However, if AL is like DL, I won't, because I hate DL xD

[Bous]

Pl died aug 23. The day forg bows came out

[MightyMicah]

That's only something you can answer for yourself. Try it. You may like it. Or it may not be for you.

But do so knowing the game that it will become.


Edit:

What I am saying is, it will suffer from the same flaws that PL suffered. Poor balance, elixir use trumping over skill (an free to play but pay to win PvE), a player base that will grow less mature with each successive generation, and a dev team much more hostile to feedback than PL was in its early days. If you find this acceptable, I would encourage you to try it. But if you don't, let this post be ... illuminating.

I wouldn't be too quick to throw out AL. DL hasn't become too plat based. Obviously the devs gotta make money but as far as I can tell they've listened to what we have been saying and really strived to get us exactly what we asked for in AL. Either way, if I can repeat (at least to some extent) the amazing time I had in PL before nuri and up, I will most gladly do so.

Btw, I'm glad you're coming back! It's the lack of people like you who cause that 5%-95% of useful/non-useful posts that you talked about. So, welcome back :)

[Superduper]

I honestly think that there shouldn't be elixirs at all. Yes I am guilty of using them, but I too remember the good old days. But spacetime will never do this. They make too much money.

[Growwle]

That's only something you can answer for yourself. Try it. You may like it. Or it may not be for you.

But do so knowing the game that it will become.


Edit:

What I am saying is, it will suffer from the same flaws that PL suffered. Poor balance, elixir use trumping over skill (an free to play but pay to win PvE), a player base that will grow less mature with each successive generation, and a dev team much more hostile to feedback than PL was in its early days. If you find this acceptable, I would encourage you to try it. But if you don't, let this post be ... illuminating.

I wouldn't be too quick to throw out AL. DL hasn't become too plat based. Obviously the devs gotta make money but as far as I can tell they've listened to what we have been saying and really strived to get us exactly what we asked for in AL. Either way, if I can repeat (at least to some extent) the amazing time I had in PL before nuri and up, I will most gladly do so.

Btw, I'm glad you're coming back! It's the lack of people like you who cause that 5%-95% of useful/non-useful posts that you talked about. So, welcome back :)

AL is shiny and new and quite frankly the most innovative Legends game yet. Only time will tell if STS can keep it interesting, like they have with PL, or if they will let it turn into a mindless grind like SL or DL.

[Deathpunch]

I honestly think that there shouldn't be elixirs at all. Yes I am guilty of using them, but I too remember the good old days. But spacetime will never do this. They make too much money.

Well, they DO have bills to pay, like employees. While they are most likely turning a profit, what would be the point of having a business if you don't, I doubt they have a room at the studio that they just pile hundred dollar bills into. They HAVE to make money, or they would go out of business.

-----
Sent from my Nexus 7

[Jespo]

im not really into the UI in AL. I think im one of the few players who will just play PL and no other

[WhoIsThis]

Well, they DO have bills to pay, like employees. While they are most likely turning a profit, what would be the point of having a business if you don't, I doubt they have a room at the studio that they just pile hundred dollar bills into. They HAVE to make money, or they would go out of business.

-----
Sent from my Nexus 7

I am not hostile to the idea that STS should charge real money. They need to. But the business model has both good and bad consequences. On one hand, more money for STS is at least on paper good in that it (theoretically) allows for better content, which is a good thing for both players and devs. On the bad side, it has caused, a "buy your way through" mentality.

I suppose other alternatives include:
- An optional monthly subscription (probably access to perks in that case)
- Advertising

- An upfront cost for the game




Problem #1 is entirely solvable. Problem #2 though, needs some thought - goal is to have competent players and a steady stream of revenue.




im not really into the UI in AL. I think im one of the few players who will just play PL and no other


It's too soon to tell what AL will turn out to be.

[WhoIsThis]

What many players are grasping on the hope that maybe this game would not go down the same path . I saw it happen in PL and saw it unfold in SL as well.

Exactly. This game faces the exact same challenges.

There are reasons why I avoid games like League of Legends. The communities there are pretty hostile and beating down on new players is the norm.


WoW, I've become an active player of, but that's because although the majority of the player base is not that great, there are good players out there. I can tell by their mentality.



Read below:

They always want to improve. It's relentless. Win, lose, kill, death - there's a constant all consuming desire to play their class better, to be more efficient.

If you told them, you are under-performing, they are not going to get all defensive, saying things like "it's just a game" or "my gear sucks", they're going to ask you how you think they should improve. And if you tell somebody that, you'd better come well researched about how to play that class, how fight that boss, what their combat rotation should be, what the average dps on the build and class are, optimal group composition for that fight, and so on.

People will improve on their own initiative. If a player sees somebody of the same class with comparable gear, outperforming them consistently, they will examine that player's tactics, ask for tips, and look at the combat logs for improvement.

Relatively little drama when there are deaths, losses, etc. In the case of raiding, it's about how to do better the next attempt and to prevent the mistakes from happening again.

Competitive - there is a desire to always be the top dps, the best healer, tank, etc. In many cases, people's sense of self-worth is based on their performance.

There is also an understanding that kills or gear won't be handed to them. Boss kills in WoW sometimes take weeks, and hundreds of hours of practice. The mechanics are often unforgiving - if a single person hits a wrong button at the wrong time or in the wrong place at the wrong time, he/she has just wiped a 10 or 25 man raid.

When it's raid time, everyone shows up ready to do their best. Under-performing players are identified, called out, and if they do not improve within a given amount of time (usually 2 weeks), are replaced.




It's the type of community I'd like to see.

The big barrier I think is that the official message has always been, it's a casual game, playable on phone, computer, tablet, and probably someday console. It doesn't attract that kind of player.

[MightyMicah]

The big barrier I think is that the official message has always been, it's a casual game, playable on phone, computer, tablet, and probably someday console. It doesn't attract that kind of player.

It attracted that type of player in the early days of PL. Also, as you stated indirectly before, those type of players are made. They don't necessarily come naturally. You make a good point though, and that point is that you don't see too many of that type of player in these mobile mmo's. It's too bad, really.

[Ultiaara]

Yes, bravo! This completely explains what I was trying to explain about Pocket Legends and Star Legends turning into a monster of a.game

[Piosidon]

Loving AL right now due to it only being PVE. No real competition.

[Rot]

That's basically how most of the MMORPGs are. Pay more = Win more. Just like Blackshot.

[Riccits]

Exactly. This game faces the exact same challenges.

There are reasons why I avoid games like League of Legends. The communities there are pretty hostile and beating down on new players is the norm.


WoW, I've become an active player of, but that's because although the majority of the player base is not that great, there are good players out there. I can tell by their mentality.



Read below:

They always want to improve. It's relentless. Win, lose, kill, death - there's a constant all consuming desire to play their class better, to be more efficient.

If you told them, you are under-performing, they are not going to get all defensive, saying things like "it's just a game" or "my gear sucks", they're going to ask you how you think they should improve. And if you tell somebody that, you'd better come well researched about how to play that class, how fight that boss, what their combat rotation should be, what the average dps on the build and class are, optimal group composition for that fight, and so on.

People will improve on their own initiative. If a player sees somebody of the same class with comparable gear, outperforming them consistently, they will examine that player's tactics, ask for tips, and look at the combat logs for improvement.

Relatively little drama when there are deaths, losses, etc. In the case of raiding, it's about how to do better the next attempt and to prevent the mistakes from happening again.

Competitive - there is a desire to always be the top dps, the best healer, tank, etc. In many cases, people's sense of self-worth is based on their performance.

There is also an understanding that kills or gear won't be handed to them. Boss kills in WoW sometimes take weeks, and hundreds of hours of practice. The mechanics are often unforgiving - if a single person hits a wrong button at the wrong time or in the wrong place at the wrong time, he/she has just wiped a 10 or 25 man raid.

When it's raid time, everyone shows up ready to do their best. Under-performing players are identified, called out, and if they do not improve within a given amount of time (usually 2 weeks), are replaced.




It's the type of community I'd like to see.

The big barrier I think is that the official message has always been, it's a casual game, playable on phone, computer, tablet, and probably someday console. It doesn't attract that kind of player.

hehe, nice to see there are some WoW players wich also plays PL ;) i can just repeat that what u say.
raiding in WoW is very very hard, if just 1 messing up all wipes in a few sec.
yesterday had a 3h mogushan Elegon raid. ya we just tryed 1 boss the whole evening. the players i played with was veterans and fn pros. i was the noob XD but they was really nice to taking me with them to make that challenge. at last try we beat him LOL. so u have an idea how hard it is... (btw. it was normal mode not heroic XD) my guild cant even beat the first boss of mogushan even after 2 weeks of endless trys...
theres so much strategie and organisation and log analisation needed...kinda love it.
everyone has to prepare hisself for a raid, studying bosses and spec his char, buying flaks etc. i also love the character customisation, its so much free space. so much choices for adaption.
btw. all is coordinatet by team speak, thers no time to chat the raidleader coordinates the team.
ya if someone is always messing up further or sooner he will be replaced... theres no choice if u wanna go on in raiding..
in PL the step from noob to pro is kinda small, with elixiers its almost like no step. in WoW the difference from noob to pro is imens large. u can always getting better, thers no limit.

for pvp u cant use the pve equip, u need to farm pvp equip, that has a special stat. so pvper doesnt even need to pve, can earn everything by pvping (WhoIsThis correct me plz if iam wrong in this ;)

going to much off topic here i think^^

[Growwle]

Exactly. This game faces the exact same challenges.

There are reasons why I avoid games like League of Legends. The communities there are pretty hostile and beating down on new players is the norm.


WoW, I've become an active player of, but that's because although the majority of the player base is not that great, there are good players out there. I can tell by their mentality.



Read below:

They always want to improve. It's relentless. Win, lose, kill, death - there's a constant all consuming desire to play their class better, to be more efficient.

If you told them, you are under-performing, they are not going to get all defensive, saying things like "it's just a game" or "my gear sucks", they're going to ask you how you think they should improve. And if you tell somebody that, you'd better come well researched about how to play that class, how fight that boss, what their combat rotation should be, what the average dps on the build and class are, optimal group composition for that fight, and so on.

People will improve on their own initiative. If a player sees somebody of the same class with comparable gear, outperforming them consistently, they will examine that player's tactics, ask for tips, and look at the combat logs for improvement.

Relatively little drama when there are deaths, losses, etc. In the case of raiding, it's about how to do better the next attempt and to prevent the mistakes from happening again.

Competitive - there is a desire to always be the top dps, the best healer, tank, etc. In many cases, people's sense of self-worth is based on their performance.

There is also an understanding that kills or gear won't be handed to them. Boss kills in WoW sometimes take weeks, and hundreds of hours of practice. The mechanics are often unforgiving - if a single person hits a wrong button at the wrong time or in the wrong place at the wrong time, he/she has just wiped a 10 or 25 man raid.

When it's raid time, everyone shows up ready to do their best. Under-performing players are identified, called out, and if they do not improve within a given amount of time (usually 2 weeks), are replaced.




It's the type of community I'd like to see.

The big barrier I think is that the official message has always been, it's a casual game, playable on phone, computer, tablet, and probably someday console. It doesn't attract that kind of player.

hehe, nice to see there are some WoW players wich also plays PL ;) i can just repeat that what u say.
raiding in WoW is very very hard, if just 1 messing up all wipes in a few sec.
yesterday had a 3h mogushan Elegon raid. ya we just tryed 1 boss the whole evening. the players i played with was veterans and fn pros. i was the noob XD but they was really nice to taking me with them to make that challenge. at last try we beat him LOL. so u have an idea how hard it is... (btw. it was normal mode not heroic XD) my guild cant even beat the first boss of mogushan even after 2 weeks of endless trys...
theres so much strategie and organisation and log analisation needed...kinda love it.
everyone has to prepare hisself for a raid, studying bosses and spec his char, buying flaks etc. i also love the character customisation, its so much free space. so much choices for adaption.
btw. all is coordinatet by team speak, thers no time to chat the raidleader coordinates the team.
ya if someone is always messing up further or sooner he will be replaced... theres no choice if u wanna go on in raiding..
in PL the step from noob to pro is kinda small, with elixiers its almost like no step. in WoW the difference from noob to pro is imens large. u can always getting better, thers no limit.

for pvp u cant use the pve equip, u need to farm pvp equip, that has a special stat. so pvper doesnt even need to pve, can earn everything by pvping (WhoIsThis correct me plz if iam wrong in this ;)

going to much off topic here i think^^

Impressive wall of text. I played WOW on and off for seven years, but my friends quit and the rest of my guild only took their friends and family on most of the raids. I tried other guilds, but they were the same, so I quit and have played many other games since. AL, so far is very entertaining and I think STS finally got it right, AL really is an mmorpg, not just a grind, or paper dolls to dress up like the other games (excluding PL, I like PL, but it is too daunting to play from the beginning).

[WhoIsThis]

hehe, nice to see there are some WoW players wich also plays PL ;) i can just repeat that what u say.
raiding in WoW is very very hard, if just 1 messing up all wipes in a few sec.
yesterday had a 3h mogushan Elegon raid. ya we just tryed 1 boss the whole evening. the players i played with was veterans and fn pros. i was the noob XD but they was really nice to taking me with them to make that challenge. at last try we beat him LOL. so u have an idea how hard it is... (btw. it was normal mode not heroic XD) my guild cant even beat the first boss of mogushan even after 2 weeks of endless trys...
theres so much strategie and organisation and log analisation needed...kinda love it.
everyone has to prepare hisself for a raid, studying bosses and spec his char, buying flaks etc. i also love the character customisation, its so much free space. so much choices for adaption.
btw. all is coordinatet by team speak, thers no time to chat the raidleader coordinates the team.
ya if someone is always messing up further or sooner he will be replaced... theres no choice if u wanna go on in raiding..
in PL the step from noob to pro is kinda small, with elixiers its almost like no step. in WoW the difference from noob to pro is imens large. u can always getting better, thers no limit.

for pvp u cant use the pve equip, u need to farm pvp equip, that has a special stat. so pvper doesnt even need to pve, can earn everything by pvping (WhoIsThis correct me plz if iam wrong in this ;)

going to much off topic here i think^^


Elegon, I was trialing for a hardcore guild for my first week of MSV raiding. Let me put it this way, tanking elegon in 465 gear is quite hard. My trial didn't work out; joined a new guild after that. I would have preferred something more hardcore.

Imo, if you have 465 gear, it's tough. If the average raid ilevel is 470, it's very doable; my first kill was 3 healed. Before the vengeance nerf, I managed to pull 78k dps on Elegon as a tank.

Strictly from a tanking perspective, it's actually not bad.

1. Pull boss
2. Cd for celestial breath
3. Pick up add
4. Cd when add is exploding & reset stacks
5. Dps boss
6. Burn orbs; need 4 stacks (5-6 on HM)
7. Pick up adds
8. Freeze adds (cd likely required)
9. Aoe adds; other tank gets boss
10. Rinse & repeat
11. Hero burn during last phase

I don't know what things are like on your server, but on ours, pugs right now can pug up to 4/6 MSV.

PvP does have it's own gear with PvP Power and resilience. I don't PvP right now; not enough time. Perhaps I should to get CP capped.

[Riccits]

Elegon, I was trialing for a hardcore guild for my first week of MSV raiding. Let me put it this way, tanking elegon in 465 gear is quite hard. My trial didn't work out; joined a new guild after that. I would have preferred something more hardcore.

Imo, if you have 465 gear, it's tough. If the average raid ilevel is 470, it's very doable; my first kill was 3 healed. Before the vengeance nerf, I managed to pull 78k dps on Elegon as a tank.

Strictly from a tanking perspective, it's actually not bad.

1. Pull boss
2. Cd for celestial breath
3. Pick up add
4. Cd when add is exploding & reset stacks
5. Dps boss
6. Burn orbs; need 4 stacks (5-6 on HM)
7. Pick up adds
8. Freeze adds (cd likely required)
9. Aoe adds; other tank gets boss
10. Rinse & repeat
11. Hero burn during last phase

I don't know what things are like on your server, but on ours, pugs right now can pug up to 4/6 MSV.

PvP does have it's own gear with PvP Power and resilience. I don't PvP right now; not enough time. Perhaps I should to get CP capped.

we all had like 475-480 equip, cant immagine to do with 465.... iam playing moonkin druid, my dmg is kinda low, but iam not sure how much iam doing wrong. my dps was around 60-65k. thats too low for that boss. 70k+ avergae should be reached. which class/spec u play?
we could manage 4 stacks orbs also. main problem was the little adds wich did huge dmg on tanks wich mostly died, or some other died in that stage. only later we figured to freeze some of them and kill the others while. if someone dies, its over...
on last try elegon activated berserker, all died appart the tank wich did the last 7m dmg XD
some dps more from me and it would been much easier....sigh...
4/6 in mogu with pugs is immaginable on our server..

[WhoIsThis]

we all had like 475-480 equip, cant immagine to do with 465.... iam playing moonkin druid, my dmg is kinda low, but iam not sure how much iam doing wrong. my dps was around 60-65k. thats too low for that boss. 70k+ avergae should be reached. which class/spec u play?
we could manage 4 stacks orbs also. main problem was the little adds wich did huge dmg on tanks wich mostly died, or some other died in that stage. only later we figured to freeze some of them and kill the others while. if someone dies, its over...
on last try elegon activated berserker, all died appart the tank wich did the last 7m dmg XD
some dps more from me and it would been much easier....sigh...
4/6 in mogu with pugs is immaginable on our server..

I'm a tank so things are different.

It's killable in 465 gear, just very tough and your dps must be top tier. You need 5 stacks in 465; someone said that it might be doable in 460 gear, but only with perfect group comp.

4/6 is imaginable? Idk, but we just pugged a 6/6N tonight. Very clean run. 90 minutes, no wipes, though a few deaths here and there. Mostly guild run though, a total pug downing Elegon, it should happen within the next week or so. I mean, by now most players have 470+ gear on our server that are serious about raiding, and in many cases, are in their 480s.

Imo, normal mode with a good pug is easier than LFR, so long as the quality of player is up to par.




Vengeance right now totally dictates tank dps. Sometimes it sucks, especially clearing HoF Garalon. Sometimes though ...

20093

220k - and that is sustained dps without hero on, not blow all your cds on hero crazy burst.




Speaking about that, it's interesting to note that WoW suffers from the very same flaws. Lots of bad players who if they spent like 20 minutes on a website like Icy Veins could see vast improvements.