Poll - Increased Survival / Increased Damage for "Razor Shield" w L80 Perks

[Cinco]

Happy New Year, Legends...

I've seen some very good constructive suggestions to make the Rogue more survivable and wanted to run this by the forums to see what others think.

The following proposals involve substituting new Perks for two of the currently existing Perks for Razor Shield at Level 80.

Survival Proposition: replace "Banking Blades" perk (25% chance to reflect 10% incoming damage) with "Blade Barrier" which grants 2 sec. invulnerability when Razor Shield is cast.
We are also considering an increased duration for this invulnerability effect with Charged Razor Shield but we have not made a final decision on that (as of yet).

Damage Proposition: replace "Frictionless Fury" perk (speed boost) with "Furious Rage" which increases the damage dealt by Razor Shield by ~50% (final figure TBD but in this ballpark).
We are also considering an increased damage boost for Charged Razor Shield but, like with the aforementioned perk, haven't made a final call on it.


Thoughts?

[Voorge]

+1 I’m sure rogue mains will be happy with the survival idea
perhaps consider adding visual to blade barrier so we know it’s on

[caabarader]

Survival! I'm not a actual rogue player but already played it, what I didn't like is that the rogue doesn't have a skill that offers those precious seconds of invulnerability, which are vital to activate procs and become "almost invincible". I've seen it said a few times that the rogue not having a skill like this would be due to the high dodge that the class has, but I would easily trade all my dodge for a skill like this...
Great thread, I hope you also have time to see some constructive suggestions and feedback from players about the current awakening system.
Happy new year!

[Read]

Thank you so much for this. So many players will like this change, I truly hope people see this pole and vote.

The Banking Blades into invulnerability period of 2-3 seconds is a solid change in my humble opinion. However Frictionless Fury is a beautiful touch to the overall clear which lacks right now. Having a 15% speed increase won't impact any ones gameplay negatively right? (Please correct me if I am mistaken)

Is it possible to have the damage increase made within Bleedings Cuts (25% bleed damage), where the left side of the tree (sharpened blades) increases bleed chance (no change) while the right side of the tree causes no bleed but increases damage by a good amount scaling with procs which is able enough to help with end game clear? (Blunted Barbs changed into perhaps Spiked Barbs to implement this).

I'm sure my self and many Rogues use the movement speed increase as it always is nice to have. I personally have never used Blunted Barbs when clearing. Please let us know if this is ok, if not kindly let us know why.

[Jinakol]

+1 for survival

Rog's damage with high critical is enough for us, so we need the survival.

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[|Ares|]

+1 to the survival rework but I think the extra movement speed is good as it is

[recilencia123]

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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[Voorge]

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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“that class does most damage”
in what multiverse?
-warrior have ulti that increases STR by 7x
-it also has a highest damage per tick weapon which is zod aegis
-mage has aquaris and hyperos that deal massive damage, not comparable to rogue’s weaponry
-it’s not a most constant damage dealer as well since there’s no haste on bows or range degree (it just shoots what’s in front of you unlike warr that hits everything around it no matter the positioning)
I think rog is already handicapped enough and there’s no need to nerf something that’s not been implemented yet.

[Lazzer]

+1. Love the change. Leaving the movement speed would be more preferred I think.

Guys we can have both implementations to Rogue here, a shield and some damage for clear (AOE). Please let us know why you would not want to see one or both changes if you disagree with one or both the potential implementations.

[recilencia123]

“that class does most damage”
in what multiverse?
-warrior have ulti that increases STR by 7x
-it also has a highest damage per tick weapon which is zod aegis
-mage has aquaris and hyperos that deal massive damage, not comparable to rogue’s weaponry
-it’s not a most constant damage dealer as well since there’s no haste on bows or range degree (it just shoots what’s in front of you unlike warr that hits everything around it no matter the positioning)
I think rog is already handicapped enough and there’s no need to nerf something that’s not been implemented yet.

I'm not talking about ulti, I'm talking about the character with his skills, I'm not talking about weapons either, in addition to the war they give him good damage in a short area since he can't attack from afar except for his axe if compare skills from mage or rog


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[Read]

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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Nice feedback, however, if you are talking about most damage, you mean the dps on a single target with the aimed shot skill yeah? (armour ignore is found in aimed shot too). These changes here focused on AOE clear and survivability mate. It's for helping with map clearing which was the original thread topic.

However assuming this is right as you say. Warriors were able to do the Cursed Woods with gear Rogues can never dream to complete with. One boss with double hp, if Rogue was the highest damage dealer this would have not been the case yeah?

[Voorge]

I'm not talking about ulti, I'm talking about the character with his skills, I'm not talking about weapons either, in addition to the war they give him good damage in a short area since he can't attack from afar except for his axe if compare skills from mage or rog


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Well warrior has rally cry jugg and vengeful blood to boost it’s stats and that’s okay I guess?

[Nerffer]

+1 for the invulnerability, but keep the movement speed as it is

[BEnii]

the survival is good idea

the damage thing should be "increases damage of rogue" not the razer shield damage as this is equivalant to 0

[recilencia123]

Nice feedback, however, if you are talking about most damage, you mean the dps on a single target with the aimed shot skill yeah? (armour ignore is found in aimed shot too). These changes here focused on AOE clear and survivability mate. It's for helping with map clearing which was the original thread topic.

However assuming this is right as you say. Warriors were able to do the Cursed Woods with gear Rogues can never dream to complete with. One boss with double hp, if Rogue was the highest damage dealer this would have not been the case yeah?

Don't forget that these skills can also be used in PVP, apart from doing good damage to the target and high chance of dodging, giving them immunity should require a balance. idk about rog doing cursed among giants can't talk about it


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[Read]

I'm not talking about ulti, I'm talking about the character with his skills, I'm not talking about weapons either, in addition to the war they give him good damage in a short area since he can't attack from afar except for his axe if compare skills from mage or rog


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The problem with this is that, you cannot take away from a class, if you do not consider Zod, Krak Aegis, Arti and Rusk etc. Warriors are completely useless. A class cannot be 100% similar in terms of damage and utility right? Hence why these buffs are in process to be implemented to help the Rogue class match the current standard of the other 2 classes. Check Indigo LB for proof of terrible clear. Time and time again.

[Voorge]

Don't forget that these skills can also be used in PVP, apart from doing good damage to the target and high chance of dodging, giving them immunity should require a balance. idk about rog doing cursed among giants can't talk about it


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Realistically, this is all good on paper. Then you go on pvp and get one shot by arti proc or tank with bio and rusk. Damage skills do not matter on pvp as much in current meta from what I’ve seen.

[Read]

Don't forget that these skills can also be used in PVP, apart from doing good damage to the target and high chance of dodging, giving them immunity should require a balance. idk about rog doing cursed among giants can't talk about it


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Yeah i totally understand, but i suggest once again going back to the OP, this is solely focused on PvE, its implications on PvP can be dealt with easily by reducing shield amount or duration perhaps in a PvP zone. But I respect your view. It's perfectly fine. Thanks for sharing feedback on this. I'm not one to talk about PvP though, in all honesty I and most of the player base PvE, the devs can confirm this, a majority of the player base only plays PvE hence why PvP changes are seldom.

[recilencia123]

The problem with this is that, you cannot take away from a class, if you do not consider Zod, Krak Aegis, Arti and Rusk etc. Warriors are completely useless. A class cannot be 100% similar in terms of damage and utility right? Hence why these buffs are in process to be implemented to help the Rogue class match the current standard of the other 2 classes. Check Indigo LB for proof of terrible clear. Time and time again.

But any class without weapons is not useful xd , rog usually have few points because they go to the boss, since they kill him quickly, at least that's what I see.


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[Brruiser]

good update w for rog

[recilencia123]

Yeah i totally understand, but i suggest once again going back to the OP, this is solely focused on PvE, its implications on PvP can be dealt with easily by reducing shield amount or duration perhaps in a PvP zone. But I respect your view. It's perfectly fine. Thanks for sharing feedback on this. I'm not one to talk about PvP though, in all honesty I and most of the player base PvE, the devs can confirm this, a majority of the player base only plays PvE hence why PvP changes are seldom.

Yes, giving them different times in pvp and pve would also be another option, but at least in pve it would be very useful so they would no longer depend on h staggos, etc. I hope the devs do their best to keep everything balanced :D


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[|Ares|]

But any class without weapons is not useful xd , rog usually have few points because they go to the boss, since they kill him quickly, at least that's what I see.


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Tell me you don't play rogue without telling me that you don't play rogue - the challenge.

[Read]

But any class without weapons is not useful xd , rog usually have few points because they go to the boss, since they kill him quickly, at least that's what I see.


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I recommend you try Cursed Woods, one of the tough challenges right now. Do everything you can to beat that boss as Rogue (Among Giants). Please let us know how it goes. Also I'm talking about classes with all their utility/weapons and procs. You mentioned earlier about seeing a class objectively without looking at Ultimate and Weapons etc. I might have read and understood you wrong perhaps?

What I am trying to say is with all of the weapon/procs/ (insignificant utility) as a Rogue, you will never see Rogue's in Indigo LB constantly. Simply because the class lacks clear. Boss killing is now easy for all classes, elemental sets allow you to nuke a Boss with Warrior/Mage and Rogue. I don't think any class struggles to find parties nowadays with elemental sets for Elite Hedourah yeah? I run Ehedo bypass with Warriors/Mages all the time.

[Kflixxx]

+111111 [emoji48]


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[|Ares|]

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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You're tank player and you just said that rogue does the most damage? Sounds like you're not utilizing your class as you should then. Up until blood star artifact rogue was (basically still is) merely worthless class in any competitive field, any event and any leaderboard. You CANNOT argue with this statement, at all.

[Read]

Yes, giving them different times in pvp and pve would also be another option, but at least in pve it would be very useful so they would no longer depend on h staggos, etc. I hope the devs do their best to keep everything balanced :D


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Don't worry at all. Trust me, if Rogue or any class is broken after a re-work my self and many others will come to assist you or any one else to help resolve the imbalance. I can assure you, I will. Don't worry about this before it has even gone live man :P relax.

[recilencia123]

You're tank player and you just said that rogue does the most damage? Sounds like you're not utilizing your class as you should then. Up until blood star artifact rogue was (basically still is) merely worthless class in any competitive field, any event and any leaderboard. You CANNOT argue with this statement, at all.

that's ur opinion and i respect, hope u do same with mine sir.


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[|Ares|]

that's ur opinion and i respect, hope u do same with mine sir.


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Your opinion is invalid here, based on what rogue does highest damage then? Elaborate.

[capeo]

Give rogues all the buffs and none of the nerfs please. I want my rogue friends to enjoy the game again. There is no reason to balance the buffs out. This is just them catching up.

[|Ares|]

Give rogues all the buffs and none of the nerfs please. I want my rogue friends to enjoy the game again. There is no reason to balance the buffs out. This is just them catching up.

Tank main btw ^ thanks for that and not for the rOgUe dEaLs HigHEsT DaMaGe.

[recilencia123]

Your opinion is invalid here, based on what rogue does highest damage then? Elaborate.

Ok, I have no right to comment then.


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[capeo]

I hope you guys get it. It's obvious to me that rogues are having a hard time now that all 3 classes do damage. I like that I can clear and kill bosses but it takes a rogues roll away. What's the point of being a glass cannon when mage/war can deal damage to? Not to mention more rogues will come back to pvp if they can actually survive for a while;)

[Lazzer]

Thank you so much for this. So many players will like this change, I truly hope people see this pole and vote.

The Banking Blades into invulnerability period of 2-3 seconds is a solid change in my humble opinion. However Frictionless Fury is a beautiful touch to the overall clear which lacks right now. Having a 15% speed increase won't impact any ones gameplay negatively right? (Please correct me if I am mistaken)

Is it possible to have the damage increase made within Bleedings Cuts (25% bleed damage), where the left side of the tree (sharpened blades) increases bleed chance (no change) while the right side of the tree causes no bleed but increases damage by a good amount scaling with procs which is able enough to help with end game clear? (Blunted Barbs changed into perhaps Spiked Barbs to implement this).

I'm sure my self and many Rogues use the movement speed increase as it always is nice to have. I personally have never used Blunted Barbs when clearing. Please let us know if this is ok, if not kindly let us know why.

+1 This is a good addition right? Every one reading this, let's help figure this out for the developers too. I like the 15ms% as it is.

[Megatr0n]

can fix mage healing properties . we do not need 10x different mana boosts


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[imfeared]

+1 to the rogue finally getting a shield

I'm not against razor getting a dmg boost but I think a better alternative would be to increase the range. Also leave the movement speed choice alone and swap out dmg reflect instead.

[dexxiedex]

Very thankful for proposal and hearing us @devs, hope the invulnerability makes it to the live game. 2 to 3 seconds seems balanced and right, and will proof very useful for us competing with the defensive abilities of the other classes that have invulnerability in their base skillset.

About the increased damage dealt by razor shield, not a big fan of it. Rogues don't use razor shield for the damage it deals at all, rather for the utility of the skill. This utility being the ms, increased damage, debuff removal, health regen. The movement speed buff we have at the moment is very useful in general. It does not really need a change in my eyes.

I see many people above discussing the pre-determined 'damage dealer' role the rogue has. Dealing damage is mostly related to procs these days. When in Elite Raha for example, I see warriors and mages with a lower damage stat value dealing much much higher tics of damage to the boss than me, with max boosts/procs, similar gear. This is an indication for the imbalance in single target damage dealing. I haven't really checked out the balancing of the AOE damage proc items (krak daggers vs staff vs aegis) since every mob dies in 1 hit anyway now that blood artifact is a thing. Not saying that everything should be perfectly equal either. The point is that rogue doesn't seem to be dealing the highest damage while having the highest damage stats. That's fine and all since not a lot more than 7/6 sb is needed to kill most enemies, but still...

One suggestion I would like to make is to give the razor SHIELD an actual shield function, by perhaps replacing one of the upgrades for a % damage reduction for X duration, besides the new invuln. OR by giving rogue (and other classes indirectly, or keep it for the casters' damage alone) more damage by making enemies hit by razor shield take X% more damage for X seconds, similar to Neigher base attack. This could push rogues closer to being the damage dealer it's meant to be.

[Americanarmy]

Happy New Year, Legends...

I've seen some very good constructive suggestions to make the Rogue more survivable and wanted to run this by the forums to see what others think.

The following proposals involve substituting new Perks for two of the currently existing Perks for Razor Shield at Level 80.

Survival Proposition: replace "Banking Blades" perk (25% chance to reflect 10% incoming damage) with "Blade Barrier" which grants 2 sec. invulnerability when Razor Shield is cast.
We are also considering an increased duration for this invulnerability effect with Charged Razor Shield but we have not made a final decision on that (as of yet).

Damage Proposition: replace "Frictionless Fury" perk (speed boost) with "Furious Rage" which increases the damage dealt by Razor Shield by ~50% (final figure TBD but in this ballpark).
We are also considering an increased damage boost for Charged Razor Shield but, like with the aforementioned perk, haven't made a final call on it.


Thoughts?

LETSSS GOOOO 100% go go goooo thanks for the community poll ur the boss


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[Lazzer]

Very thankful for proposal and hearing us @devs, hope the invulnerability makes it to the live game. 2 to 3 seconds seems balanced and right, and will proof very useful for us competing with the defensive abilities of the other classes that have invulnerability in their base skillset.

About the increased damage dealt by razor shield, not a big fan of it. Rogues don't use razor shield for the damage it deals at all, rather for the utility of the skill. This utility being the ms, increased damage, debuff removal, health regen. The movement speed buff we have at the moment is very useful in general. It does not really need a change in my eyes.

I see many people above discussing the pre-determined 'damage dealer' role the rogue has. Dealing damage is mostly related to procs these days. When in Elite Raha for example, I see warriors and mages with a lower damage stat value dealing much much higher tics of damage to the boss than me, with max boosts/procs, similar gear. This is an indication for the imbalance in single target damage dealing. I haven't really checked out the balancing of the AOE damage proc items (krak daggers vs staff vs aegis) since every mob dies in 1 hit anyway now that blood artifact is a thing. Not saying that everything should be perfectly equal either. The point is that rogue doesn't seem to be dealing the highest damage while having the highest damage stats. That's fine and all since not a lot more than 7/6 sb is needed to kill most enemies, but still...

One suggestion I would like to make is to give the razor SHIELD an actual shield function, by perhaps replacing one of the upgrades for a % damage reduction for X duration, besides the new invuln. OR by giving rogue (and other classes indirectly, or keep it for the casters' damage alone) more damage by making enemies hit by razor shield take X% more damage for X seconds, similar to Neigher base attack. This could push rogues closer to being the damage dealer it's meant to be.

Yeah, the shield is 100% needed, and the point on Razor not being used for damage is true. It's mainly used for speed and removing impairing effects. In the Original Post I was thinking a instant proc damage the moment players run past mobs with RS (Razor Shield) instead of damage ticks. Since damage ticks slow down a run greatly and there is no time to stay on top of mobs and utilize the tic damage, specially with high base ping as well.

Blunted Barbs turning from push back to instant contact damage to mobs scaling neatly with procs seems cool. That way we can wiggle around mobs and do some damage and clean mobs with procs better, rather than having to depend on a chance bleed and slow tic damage not helping with Rogue Clear.

Or another implementation would be a 100% bleed and proc on targets with a bigger AOE radius, scaling nicely with procs, so it becomes a unique DOT like Mage Fire Ball and Time Shift. Maybe changing Blunted Barbs into something like Serrated Edge or Serrated Onslaught (cheesy but cool).

[jazzbloonist]

Survival is good change. All for it!
Dmg for speed? HELL NO! Keep the current speed perks as it is please.

Wars have skills that increase move speed. We need at least something!

Also doesnt razor already help alot with dmg stuff? Jesus

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[Sampep]

Detour thread to ignore the awake balance allegations

[Lazzer]

@Cinco is it possible to leave the movement speed of 15% as it is in the Rogue kit by implementing it to Whirling Razors which currently increases dodge by 20%. Rogues will never be needing that extra dodge whatsoever having a invulnerability period of 3 seconds right?

Then perhaps we can implement the Shielding and Damage increase in this way:

For the shielding : Spinning Freedom can have 2 splits (Banking Blades) and (Blade Barrier).
Blade Barrier being the 2-3 sec invulnerability.

To implement the AOE increase and damage increase we can change Bleeding Cuts to "Charged Razor Shield surrounds you with a larger radius of Whirling Knives"

Then for the Bleeding Cuts 2 splits (Sharpened Barbs) and (Furious Rage).

Sharpened Barbs as a 100% bleed instead of 50% (DOT damage similar to Fire Ball Time Shift)
Furious Rage as a damage increase on the blades with a good amount of damage on contact with targets.


Or leave Sharpened Blades as it is with 50% and change Blunted Barbs to Furious Rage. However imo, 100% bleed will be a extremely nice touch to the clear, as we can run around carrying a DOT similiar to a Fireball in theory.

[Tzuki]

That's gotta be a great change for rogue. As for the damage it's better if you give the damage on Rogue but not on the Razor Shield skill. But either way, invulnerability is the most important here so +1 for the invulnerability,

[Lazzer]

That's gotta be a great change for rogue. As for the damage it's better if you give the damage on Rogue but not on the Razor Shield skill. But either way, invulnerability is the most important here so +1 for the invulnerability,

True, but we got to work with what we have here. Since Cinco and the dev team are looking for feedback into shaping up the Rogue skill tree to assist with the clear, us players might as well make it worth while and propose suggestions which actually will help with implementing stuff, this in turn will effect Rogue clear and damage in my opinion.

The shielding is sorted I think every one likes it. So only thing to deal with is the damage implementation.

I see the Sharpened Blades having good potential to help with clear, if its a 100% bleed on contact (with the AOE increase) and if bleed scales nicely like the Mage Fire Ball or tower.

Or, we got Furious Rage as the other optional tool we can choose to help clean mobs overall when running past mobs with procs. However for Furious Rage to work right, the AOE increase is a thing which needs fixing. Right now the blades seem extremely bugged. Sometimes i run past mobs and nothing seems to even happen. They need to fix the range and interaction of the skill when it contacts mobs, making the damage tics hit harder and quicker for Furious Rage.

[Ugandaahn]

maybe reduce invulnerability of war heal its currently 6seconds -> to around 4 seconds
and mage shield gives around 4 seconds -> 3 seconds
and with this update rog would have 2 seconds atleast

[Read]

There is no need to nerf any other class to buff Rogue. Warriors get a total of 4.5 seconds invulnerability. Mage has 3.5 seconds. Its fair for Rogue to have 3 seconds on charge use.

Me personally i always like to charge use RS. So whether its 2 sec on instant use or 3 second on charge use is totally up to the developers. All that matters is Rogue having a shield in their kit. If any one has a issue with 2 seconds of invulnerability on instant use please comment. All good. Let the devs know your thoughts.

Thanks.

[Kflixxx]

There is no need to nerf any other class to buff Rogue. Warriors get a total of 4.5 seconds invulnerability. Mage has 3.5 seconds. Its fair for Rogue to have 3 seconds on charge use.

Me personally i always like to charge use RS. So whether its 2 sec on instant use or 3 second on charge use is totally up to the developers. All that matters is Rogue having a shield in their kit. If any one has a issue with 2 seconds of invulnerability on instant use please comment. All good. Let the devs know your thoughts.

Thanks.

Warriors have a cheat code rn 4.5 sec invulnerable along with max haste is nearly infinite shield don’t forget pets like glow being used right after invulnerability shield along with they high health which is their role so not holding that against warrior mains , as a rogue main this would help and as far as solo runs go for this upcoming event it would be useful to have this survivability as well like the other classes


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[Read]

Yeah but bro, aren't we being over zealous and asking for too much here if we ask for a reduction for other classes? Warrior having high health and defense and overall survivability sounds perfectly fine right? Considering it's class and perks and so on. I don't think Rogues can ever match that kind of survivability , Jugg, Horn and high base Hp/ Armour.

I feel like we should try and look to improve the stuff Mr. Cinco has put forth. Asking for too much will back fire badly bro xD. I understand what you are trying to say however. What do you think about this?

[Kflixxx]

Yeah but bro, aren't we being over zealous and asking for too much here if we ask for a reduction for other classes? Warrior having high health and defense and overall survivability sounds perfectly fine right? Considering it's class and perks and so on. I don't think Rogues can ever match that kind of survivability , Jugg, Horn and high base Hp/ Armour.

I feel like we should try and look to improve the stuff Mr. Cinco has put forth. Asking for too much will back fire badly bro xD. I understand what you are trying to say however. What do you think about this?

Oh nah bro debuffing others classes should have never came up in the first place I agree, rogues just need some love in this situation, the other classes perfectly fine but it needs to be alittle generous on the duration of this shield so each class can still be somewhat on par with each other I still don’t think this will make rouges as good as yall classes since we all do heavy damage now due to procs it took down the main purpose of rogue , just improvise the rogue


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[Read]

Yeah, for the class to be viable in runs in comparison to other 2, the damage aspect with AOE needs to be very good. That's where Furious Rage and the AOE increase and bleed implementations comes in, hopefully they add these. We can expect future gear to assist us with clear too hopefully, things like this Blood Arti are very helpful reviving a dead class.

The shielding aspect should be fine. Since LB Temple for example has its own class groups to compete in yeah? If I'm not mistaken? This eliminates the need to compete with the other 2 classes in terms of survivability and points on LB.

[Kflixxx]

Yeah, for the class to be viable in runs in comparison to other 2, the damage aspect with AOE needs to be very good. That's where Furious Rage and the AOE increase and bleed implementations comes in, hopefully they add these. We can expect future gear to assist us with clear too hopefully, things like this Blood Arti are very helpful reviving a dead class.

The shielding aspect should be fine. Since LB Temple for example has its own class groups to compete in yeah? If I'm not mistaken? This eliminates the need to compete with the other 2 classes in terms of survivability and points on LB.

Ahh you may be right I forgot how the temple lb works I never ran it before cuz I didn’t have the gears to do so forgot solo probably competes with its own class


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[Cinco]

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

[Ooozer]

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

Also for mage most of skills are useless. Only fireball and shield has and effect, rest of them kinda useless.

[Lazzer]

@Cinco is it possible to leave the movement speed of 15% as it is in the Rogue kit by implementing it to Whirling Razors which currently increases dodge by 20%. Rogues will never be needing that extra dodge whatsoever having a invulnerability period of 3 seconds right?

Then perhaps we can implement the Shielding and Damage increase in this way:

For the shielding : Spinning Freedom can have 2 splits (Banking Blades) and (Blade Barrier).
Blade Barrier being the 2-3 sec invulnerability.

To implement the AOE increase and damage increase we can change Bleeding Cuts to "Charged Razor Shield surrounds you with a larger radius of Whirling Knives"

Then for the Bleeding Cuts 2 splits (Sharpened Barbs) and (Furious Rage).

Sharpened Barbs as a 100% bleed instead of 50% (DOT damage similar to Fire Ball Time Shift)
Furious Rage as a damage increase on the blades with a good amount of damage on contact with targets.


Or leave Sharpened Blades as it is with 50% and change Blunted Barbs to Furious Rage. However imo, 100% bleed will be a extremely nice touch to the clear, as we can run around carrying a DOT similiar to a Fireball in theory.

@Cinco Would all this work? I think it will take a little longer to fully implement the damage and shielding aspect of it. But it seems very doable without impacting any core aspect of the class yeah? Having a 100% proc DOT through bleed sounds fantastic yah? Running through mobs to proc and scaling its damage with our buffs through gear similar to mage DOT.

[Lazzer]

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

For Furious Rage to be effective it needs to deal damage like a tuned down version of the blood artifact with the same AOE radius or a bigger radius. This would do justice to the Rogue clear for sure, however, you might need to test it before release, making the scaling very good but not broken. In doing this, players have a choice between 100% bleed proc as Sharpened Barbs or high damage through Furious Rage.

[Lazzer]

Also for mage most of skills are useless. Only fireball and shield has and effect, rest of them kinda useless.

You can do tons of AOE and plays with Time Shift as well, Indigo specially, if you don't have blood arti. Not forgetting curse too. Indigo with full sb and kraken staff proc can clear l1 l2 and start of l3 if done right with ms% awakens. Preferably with Orb.

[Oakmaiden]

Anything that keeps me from dying every 3 steps into a map.

[capeo]

I don't think there needs to be a trade off. Give the rogues a shield and more damage. I don't see a problem with rogues doing insane damage. They should be out classing wars and mages in damage. By a lot.

Disagree with the 2 seconds if not charged. Both mage and war need to charge their skill for invulnerability.

[Read]

I don't think there needs to be a trade off. Give the rogues a shield and more damage. I don't see a problem with rogues doing insane damage. They should be out classing wars and mages in damage. By a lot.

Disagree with the 2 seconds if not charged. Both mage and war need to charge their skill for invulnerability.

Agreed with the charging. The damage implementation would be very good to help with clearing maps. Right now devs seem to be focusing on the survivability aspect of the class over the betterment of the clearing of maps. I guess it is a good start. Hopefully the damage implementation can be done in the near future as well.

Also for everyone who voted no on a damage increase and yes for shielding, where is the reason or suggested alternative for saying no? It's hard to proceed on a plan if there is no feedback as to why yes or why no.

[thering]

Happy New Year, Legends...

I've seen some very good constructive suggestions to make the Rogue more survivable and wanted to run this by the forums to see what others think.

The following proposals involve substituting new Perks for two of the currently existing Perks for Razor Shield at Level 80.

Survival Proposition: replace "Banking Blades" perk (25% chance to reflect 10% incoming damage) with "Blade Barrier" which grants 2 sec. invulnerability when Razor Shield is cast.
We are also considering an increased duration for this invulnerability effect with Charged Razor Shield but we have not made a final decision on that (as of yet).

Damage Proposition: replace "Frictionless Fury" perk (speed boost) with "Furious Rage" which increases the damage dealt by Razor Shield by ~50% (final figure TBD but in this ballpark).
We are also considering an increased damage boost for Charged Razor Shield but, like with the aforementioned perk, haven't made a final call on it.


Thoughts?

As I could understand, this topic caused by some complains about rogue's 'cleaning speed', so I don't see how 2-3seconds of immortality would help it, damage of razor is a joke also, you can increase razor damage by 1000% and will change nothing.

I'll bring some suggestions/thoughts/complains what would improve rogue's cleaning speed and survivable on rogue:

1) cleaning speed (mobs): only 2 things which matter for it: 1) HOW FAST rogue can activate core procs (weapon, armor, artifact, if its about 86 arcanes) and 2) what rogue will do after procs got activated.

-What can be improved in razor shield about activating procs faster: make bigger area of this skill, make it hit faster, it can deal 1 damage per tick, but make it damaging enemies for example 4 times (or more) per second and in bigger area, chance to bleed currently 25% (50 with perk), can be improved to 50/100%.
(What could be improved in other skills: some perk of normal shadow piercer multiple damage could deal like 10 hits instead current 5, and with increased speed ofc... Just compare count of hits to other classes before getting proc of weapon: warrior axe mastery 1 point = fast 10 hits on single target + warrior's windmill is like 5 hits on cast (if 5 enemies around) and repeating it for several times. Mage just use uncharged fireball and get all procs easily, but mage has also other skills to get procs... Rogue lacking hits to activate procs fast...charging noxious bolt which hits just 1 enemy on impact and then some slow dot isn't best thing to do)
In general, I think it would be nice to get current procs activated by any 1st hit with 100% chance on all classes (if they arent on cooldown) instead talking about what rogue lacking etc..., atleast 81 arc weapons (bcs still no new weapon), 86 arc helm/armor/artifact. Kraken daggers require 15 hits to get guaranteed proc, so using normal piercer (6 hits) + charged shadow storm shot not even guarantees to get daggers proc cuz sss not always has a lot targers to hit (talking about 5 mobs in start of indigo map as example), 2 other classes easily get proc of weapon on those mobs. Trying using charged nox bolt which won't even hit few targets on impact is waste time x2 (charging + waiting when poison starts damage)

-What classes do on mobs part after core procs got activated:
Mage kraken staff grants like 500% stacking dmg, multiplied by arcane armor by x3, so its minimum 1500% damage he get on rusk gun attacks, which are affected by %haste. mage can even run with aquaris staff.
Warrior class - no need describe I hope?...
Rogue? Has Rusk bow with 3 targets only in front of rogue, bows attacks are not affected by %haste, so this bow isn't useful at all, just for damage stat, and it push enemies? lol... also kraken daggers proc grants only 100-150% stacking damage (compare it to 500% from krak staff...), rogue has only shadow shorm shot to use after procs activated, but its so long cooldown (compared to mage's fireball) and normal piercer to kill some single mobs or to get closer to mob and kill by kraken dagg/new arti proc, everything else useless, its all about daggers + arti proc.

I would also suggest to bring something like rusk daggers which will PULL enemies in big area like rusk sword doing by regular attacks and without cooldown. (Warriors might get op rusk aegis which will PUSH 3 enemies away and without affected by %haste, just to feel their current 'balance' :D )

2) Talk about survival abilities on rogue:
Razor mastery 10% STACKING damage reduce?
Reality of this mastery: pet with 25% stacking damage reduce in HB + any buff like star beast set proc (60% stacking dmg reduce) or mephisto (50% stacking dmg reduce), or kraken daggers (50% stacking dmg reduce), and there a lot more sources of it, already putting %damage reduce over cap (70%), so 10% stacking dmg reduce from razor gives only 1,1% in fact (instead 10%)... and for this we spend 10 points?
Make it 50% NON STACKING damage reduce on 10/10 razor mastery, warrior has 60/40% non stacking damage reduce on juggernaut with few points, mage has similar on shield (for those who are clueless about stacking/nonstacking %dmgReduce, try learn more and make some math, before you put comments like 'nonstacking dmg reduce is useless' etc). So it would be good to have on rogue too... but again, it has nothing to do with cleaning speed in my opinion. If rogue dies before procs got activated, I'm so sorry about it lol.

If anyone cares about pvp and balancing classes for pvp there: remove all procs, adjust damage of skills, done. If you don't agree with it for some reason, i'll bring few facts: 1) ATM pvp is more "active" at lvls below 76 (where procs aren't crazy; look all 81 gears are cheap but there 0 pvp, guess why) 2) pvp was more active in general before 81 expansion, think about it too. Also, I'm not suggesting removing awakes and pets from pvp, so it would be still based on player's invests. For those who 'care' about sts money from pvp - they already aren't getting it. And if awakes will still work in pvp, it would bring sts some money; also arcane gears has much better stats still; I'm not suggesting another honor pvp.
Announced by sts 2-3 seconds of immortality on razor in pvp case will only make rogue survive 5 seconds instead 3 (2-3sec + 2 seconds of glowstik aa) then result same, it will be helpful against mages sure, against warriors not much, also playing rogue vs rogue would become so bad for me, immortality on razor in rog vs rog will be more like game who has better ping... Well, I didn't pvp since 81 expansion (kraken amulet...), just few duels against sb chainsword (trying all possbible setups on rogue), was enough to understand that pvp is not good for rogues at all atm.

Also, in my opinion (if sts really want improve rogue), it would be more wise to ask actual good rogues who proved their skill/knowledge on this class (for example some timed runners, I mean normal timed runners, not pinata LBs like orrick lol; or ask some temple top10-20 rogues, or some chosen by other factors good rogues, and hope that factor will not be 'who bought more plat'). There's no point ask some clueless random warriors about rogue/razor, warriors who only coming here with hate about rogues and can't even learn their own class. There's also no point asking some cheap or new rogues about their survivable, which are complaining about dying while running with low armor/hp ms sets at endgame maps ("op" ms nox set, "op" holley set, "op" zaarus set or even lower and then "we need immortality").

Somebody mentioned current 'balance' and brought up cursed woods - giants as example. I finished it on 3 classes without elemental sets (before new arcanes got released):
mobs part was similar for all classes (warrior ofc a bit better cuz has pull).
boss part:
-on warrior I finished it with 3k str + krakens + sb set + 'nerfed' neptaris.
-on mage I finished it having 3.3k int (krakens + sb set + rusk gun).
-on rogue I had to get 4k dex (rusk bow + krakens + sb set, same items as mage, just better jewels/awakes) but with 3.8k dex I couldn't do it (rogue is my main class for many years).
Rogue was the most uncomfortable and slowest class to do that boss because: warrior can pull boss by axe to avoid debuffing explodes, mage has ranged skill + attacks (lightning, curse, rusk gun attacks), rogue had to follow boss (rogues damage deals is aimed + piercer, all other skills not damaging, rogue is not range class at all, as somebody mentioned haha), so had to control where boss goes by running away if boss goes to corners, couldn't fight there because boss will stack explosions there and rip.
If we would talk about including here elemental sets - it would only disadvantage rogue even more, since those sets are dealing same damage on all classes and affected only by %damage %bd (%ed not working in woods) and %crit dmg. So, rogue has the lowest %damage from weapons procs (don't tell to proc pisces lol, is impossible), means lowest damage from elemental set procs. Still want to talk about balance?




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[dexxiedex]

^ Yep. It's a bit much, but it comes down to the fact that rogue is the underperforming class in many aspects. This invulnerability change and the potential other change are small steps in the right direction.

[Read]

Yeah the class is performing terribly. There's absolutely nothing special or fun about the class to farm with. I've been trying to get it buffed for a while now and these changes Cinco and the dev team are about implement are a good start. It would be terrible if they stop at the shielding only. The poll literally says 2 implementations, a shield and damage buff.

There are amazing suggestions in this entire thread to buff the damage as well. Making RS deal significantly higher damage will work either with the bleed/AOE increase or damage/AOE increase.

[Read]

@Cinco is it possible to leave the movement speed of 15% as it is in the Rogue kit by implementing it to Whirling Razors which currently increases dodge by 20%. Rogues will never be needing that extra dodge whatsoever having a invulnerability period of 3 seconds right?

Then perhaps we can implement the Shielding and Damage increase in this way:

For the shielding : Spinning Freedom can have 2 splits (Banking Blades) and (Blade Barrier).
Blade Barrier being the 2-3 sec invulnerability.

To implement the AOE increase and damage increase we can change Bleeding Cuts to "Charged Razor Shield surrounds you with a larger radius of Whirling Knives"

Then for the Bleeding Cuts 2 splits (Sharpened Barbs) and (Furious Rage).

Sharpened Barbs as a 100% bleed instead of 50% (DOT damage similar to Fire Ball Time Shift)
Furious Rage as a damage increase on the blades with a good amount of damage on contact with targets.


Or leave Sharpened Blades as it is with 50% and change Blunted Barbs to Furious Rage. However imo, 100% bleed will be a extremely nice touch to the clear, as we can run around carrying a DOT similiar to a Fireball in theory.

This is doable and probably the better ones I've seen. Currently the 50% bleed and the insignificant damage should be removed. Having the choice between 100% bleed (fast tic damage) or very high damage with large AOE to choose from on the skill tree sounds like a great start to Rogue clear.

As @capeo mentioned it only makes logical sense if the class deals A TON of damage. I mean why else play Rogue to farm lol? It has nothing to offer, we all know this, check indigo LB. 200k+ a minute easily on that map.

[Den4knice]

As I could understand, this topic caused by some complains about rogue's 'cleaning speed', so I don't see how 2-3seconds of immortality would help it, damage of razor is a joke also, you can increase razor damage by 1000% and will change nothing.

I'll bring some suggestions/thoughts/complains what would improve rogue's cleaning speed and survivable on rogue:

1) cleaning speed (mobs): only 2 things which matter for it: 1) HOW FAST rogue can activate core procs (weapon, armor, artifact, if its about 86 arcanes) and 2) what rogue will do after procs got activated.

-What can be improved in razor shield about activating procs faster: make bigger area of this skill, make it hit faster, it can deal 1 damage per tick, but make it damaging enemies for example 4 times (or more) per second and in bigger area, chance to bleed currently 25% (50 with perk), can be improved to 50/100%.
(What could be improved in other skills: some perk of normal shadow piercer multiple damage could deal like 10 hits instead current 5, and with increased speed ofc... Just compare count of hits to other classes before getting proc of weapon: warrior axe mastery 1 point = fast 10 hits on single target + warrior's windmill is like 5 hits on cast (if 5 enemies around) and repeating it for several times. Mage just use uncharged fireball and get all procs easily, but mage has also other skills to get procs... Rogue lacking hits to activate procs fast...charging noxious bolt which hits just 1 enemy on impact and then some slow dot isn't best thing to do)
In general, I think it would be nice to get current procs activated by any 1st hit with 100% chance on all classes (if they arent on cooldown) instead talking about what rogue lacking etc..., atleast 81 arc weapons (bcs still no new weapon), 86 arc helm/armor/artifact. Kraken daggers require 15 hits to get guaranteed proc, so using normal piercer (6 hits) + charged shadow storm shot not even guarantees to get daggers proc cuz sss not always has a lot targers to hit (talking about 5 mobs in start of indigo map as example), 2 other classes easily get proc of weapon on those mobs. Trying using charged nox bolt which won't even hit few targets on impact is waste time x2 (charging + waiting when poison starts damage)

-What classes do on mobs part after core procs got activated:
Mage kraken staff grants like 500% stacking dmg, multiplied by arcane armor by x3, so its minimum 1500% damage he get on rusk gun attacks, which are affected by %haste. mage can even run with aquaris staff.
Warrior class - no need describe I hope?...
Rogue? Has Rusk bow with 3 targets only in front of rogue, bows attacks are not affected by %haste, so this bow isn't useful at all, just for damage stat, and it push enemies? lol... also kraken daggers proc grants only 100-150% stacking damage (compare it to 500% from krak staff...), rogue has only shadow shorm shot to use after procs activated, but its so long cooldown (compared to mage's fireball) and normal piercer to kill some single mobs or to get closer to mob and kill by kraken dagg/new arti proc, everything else useless, its all about daggers + arti proc.

I would also suggest to bring something like rusk daggers which will PULL enemies in big area like rusk sword doing by regular attacks and without cooldown. (Warriors might get op rusk aegis which will PUSH 3 enemies away and without affected by %haste, just to feel their current 'balance' :D )

2) Talk about survival abilities on rogue:
Razor mastery 10% STACKING damage reduce?
Reality of this mastery: pet with 25% stacking damage reduce in HB + any buff like star beast set proc (60% stacking dmg reduce) or mephisto (50% stacking dmg reduce), or kraken daggers (50% stacking dmg reduce), and there a lot more sources of it, already putting %damage reduce over cap (70%), so 10% stacking dmg reduce from razor gives only 1,1% in fact (instead 10%)... and for this we spend 10 points?
Make it 50% NON STACKING damage reduce on 10/10 razor mastery, warrior has 60/40% non stacking damage reduce on juggernaut with few points, mage has similar on shield (for those who are clueless about stacking/nonstacking %dmgReduce, try learn more and make some math, before you put comments like 'nonstacking dmg reduce is useless' etc). So it would be good to have on rogue too... but again, it has nothing to do with cleaning speed in my opinion. If rogue dies before procs got activated, I'm so sorry about it lol.

If anyone cares about pvp and balancing classes for pvp there: remove all procs, adjust damage of skills, done. If you don't agree with it for some reason, i'll bring few facts: 1) ATM pvp is more "active" at lvls below 76 (where procs aren't crazy; look all 81 gears are cheap but there 0 pvp, guess why) 2) pvp was more active in general before 81 expansion, think about it too. Also, I'm not suggesting removing awakes and pets from pvp, so it would be still based on player's invests. For those who 'care' about sts money from pvp - they already aren't getting it. And if awakes will still work in pvp, it would bring sts some money; also arcane gears has much better stats still; I'm not suggesting another honor pvp.
Announced by sts 2-3 seconds of immortality on razor in pvp case will only make rogue survive 5 seconds instead 3 (2-3sec + 2 seconds of glowstik aa) then result same, it will be helpful against mages sure, against warriors not much, also playing rogue vs rogue would become so bad for me, immortality on razor in rog vs rog will be more like game who has better ping... Well, I didn't pvp since 81 expansion (kraken amulet...), just few duels against sb chainsword (trying all possbible setups on rogue), was enough to understand that pvp is not good for rogues at all atm.

Also, in my opinion (if sts really want improve rogue), it would be more wise to ask actual good rogues who proved their skill/knowledge on this class (for example some timed runners, I mean normal timed runners, not pinata LBs like orrick lol; or ask some temple top10-20 rogues, or some chosen by other factors good rogues, and hope that factor will not be 'who bought more plat'). There's no point ask some clueless random warriors about rogue/razor, warriors who only coming here with hate about rogues and can't even learn their own class. There's also no point asking some cheap or new rogues about their survivable, which are complaining about dying while running with low armor/hp ms sets at endgame maps ("op" ms nox set, "op" holley set, "op" zaarus set or even lower and then "we need immortality").

Somebody mentioned current 'balance' and brought up cursed woods - giants as example. I finished it on 3 classes without elemental sets (before new arcanes got released):
mobs part was similar for all classes (warrior ofc a bit better cuz has pull).
boss part:
-on warrior I finished it with 3k str + krakens + sb set + 'nerfed' neptaris.
-on mage I finished it having 3.3k int (krakens + sb set + rusk gun).
-on rogue I had to get 4k dex (rusk bow + krakens + sb set, same items as mage, just better jewels/awakes) but with 3.8k dex I couldn't do it (rogue is my main class for many years).
Rogue was the most uncomfortable and slowest class to do that boss because: warrior can pull boss by axe to avoid debuffing explodes, mage has ranged skill + attacks (lightning, curse, rusk gun attacks), rogue had to follow boss (rogues damage deals is aimed + piercer, all other skills not damaging, rogue is not range class at all, as somebody mentioned haha), so had to control where boss goes by running away if boss goes to corners, couldn't fight there because boss will stack explosions there and rip.
If we would talk about including here elemental sets - it would only disadvantage rogue even more, since those sets are dealing same damage on all classes and affected only by %damage %bd (%ed not working in woods) and %crit dmg. So, rogue has the lowest %damage from weapons procs (don't tell to proc pisces lol, is impossible), means lowest damage from elemental set procs. Still want to talk about balance?




Sent from my KFTRWI using Tapatalk+1

Отправлено с моего SM-A325F через Tapatalk

[Stefal]

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

Could you please keep a mind on rogue ultimates also?
Compared to other 2 classes rogue has worst ultimates. Heal and invulnerability one is useless (compared to Warr immortal ulti,even to heal or mage shield) .
Also, arrow ulti is really bad,takes too much time,if u dont spamm it fast enough after gears proc, all 3 arrows wont even hit the target while procs are active. Please consider its total damage stayin same, and making it just 1 arrow. Thank you

[Lazzer]

Could you please keep a mind on rogue ultimates also?
Compared to other 2 classes rogue has worst ultimates. Heal and invulnerability one is useless (compared to Warr immortal ulti,even to heal or mage shield) .
Also, arrow ulti is really bad,takes too much time,if u dont spamm it fast enough after gears proc, all 3 arrows wont even hit the target while procs are active. Please consider its total damage stayin same, and making it just 1 arrow. Thank you

This is asking for too much mate, if you followed the Original Post it's focus is mainly on clear and survivability. Indigo mainly. Ultimates never load in the current meta in Indigo when running with end game parties. Map is completed in 25 seconds or less. Ultimate doesn't have time to load even to the half mark usually. Since one Warrior or Mage can full clear right and left in a single proc with one guy pulling left and 2 for boss or one for l3.

Lets try for now to focus on the clear and survivability aspect while keeping the 15ms%. There are some suggestions above. Please let us know if you like it or would want to tweak it in some way making Rogue decent in maps.

https://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?762974-Additional-Utility-for-Rogue-Skills

[Stefal]

This is asking for too much mate, if you followed the Original Post it's focus is mainly on clear and survivability. Indigo mainly. Ultimates never load in the current meta in Indigo when running with end game parties. Map is completed in 25 seconds or less. Ultimate doesn't have time to load even to the half mark usually. Since one Warrior or Mage can full clear right and left in a single proc with one guy pulling left and 2 for boss or one for l3.

Lets try for now to focus on the clear and survivability aspect while keeping the 15ms%. There are some suggestions above. Please let us know if you like it or would want to tweak it in some way making Rogue decent in maps.

https://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?762974-Additional-Utility-for-Rogue-Skills

Seeing your comments on many forums posts dont see your opinion relevant. You are the one always writing off topic. Nothing in what i said is pushing it. If you think about it, im tottaly right. 2 seconds invulnerability wont change rogue game play (or help it alot). You will die anyways if your procs arent up (cooldowns way more then 2 sec) , wont help you on poison map either ( try it with inv/heal ulti) ,wont help you in any aspect except in pvp. Your char will stay glass (fake) cannon.
Thank you so much

[Americanarmy]

Seeing your comments on many forums posts dont see your opinion relevant. You are the one always writing off topic. Nothing in what i said is pushing it. If you think about it, im tottaly right. 2 seconds invulnerability wont change rogue game play (or help it alot). You will die anyways if your procs arent up (cooldowns way more then 2 sec) , wont help you on poison map either ( try it with inv/heal ulti) ,wont help you in any aspect except in pvp. Your char will stay glass (fake) cannon.
Thank you so much

It will


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lazzer]

Seeing your comments on many forums posts dont see your opinion relevant. You are the one always writing off topic. Nothing in what i said is pushing it. If you think about it, im tottaly right. 2 seconds invulnerability wont change rogue game play (or help it alot). You will die anyways if your procs arent up (cooldowns way more then 2 sec) , wont help you on poison map either ( try it with inv/heal ulti) ,wont help you in any aspect except in pvp. Your char will stay glass (fake) cannon.
Thank you so much

Buddy, the comments myself and many others have made on multiple threads speaking out on the clear, got us here to where the devs are helping Rogues. Show some appreciation to the community. And stop being such a negative, cynical person. I literally gave you the link to the OP. Take 2 minutes and read. Pointless comments like yours just add to irrelevance the devs have to read. No idea why your tone needs to be this opposing and rude.

And btw, it will help with the clear. I run Lb Indigo all the time, hence why i suggested the implementations. Not sure what poison map you speak of where it won't help. Also who uses Ultimates in indigo parties?? Either you've never run Indigo with good parties or you are just mad for some reason having a bad day.

Take care buddy. No hard feelings, but I had to say it as it is.

[Stefal]

Buddy, the comments myself and many others have made on multiple threads speaking out on the clear, got us here to where the devs are helping Rogues. Show some appreciation to the community. And stop being such a negative, cynical person. I literally gave you the link to the OP. Take 2 minutes and read. Pointless comments like yours just add to irrelevance the devs have to read. No idea why your tone needs to be this opposing and rude.

And btw, it will help with the clear. I run Lb Indigo all the time, hence why i suggested the implementations. Not sure what poison map you speak of where it won't help. Also who uses Ultimates in indigo parties?? Either you've never run Indigo with good parties or you are just mad for some reason having a bad day.

Take care buddy. No hard feelings, but I had to say it as it is.

No, nothing like that made them help rogues, they are just lutting down fires, as rogue is almost dead class. People eithrr quit game,or rogue. Them losing plat buyers made them help rogue. You dont use ultimate in any map,thats my point, because ultimate(made to be strongest skill) skills on rogue r ***.
If u run lb indigo so much, why dont u use invulnerability ulti ( since its 25 sec map and you donr use arrow anyway ) you are pushing something that will seal the deal with "devs helping rogues" and wont change a thing for rogue.

[Lazzer]

No, nothing like that made them help rogues, they are just lutting down fires, as rogue is almost dead class. People eithrr quit game,or rogue. Them losing plat buyers made them help rogue. You dont use ultimate in any map,thats my point, because ultimate(made to be strongest skill) skills on rogue r ***.
If u run lb indigo so much, why dont u use invulnerability ulti ( since its 25 sec map and you donr use arrow anyway ) you are pushing something that will seal the deal with "devs helping rogues" and wont change a thing for rogue.

No one uses ULTIMATE is my point. Not Mage Not Warr Not Rogue. The ult wont load in time because of how quick the map is over and how little there is left to clear. 2 party members literally don't do anything other than boss, with blood arti proc since you can clean full maps in one proc as Mage and Warr.

I'm also trying to tell you that this is not the place to suggest Ultimate implementations man. Simple as that. Cinco asked for Feedback on the damage and survivability on RS for map clearing. Not ultimate usage. Our ult is lacking yes. Agreed. How do we make changes? Simple. Open a new thread and raise the issue. I don't mind helping you out with that, I main Rogue too buddy.

[iheartu]

+1 for the survival proposal. I might come back to play

[Candylicks]

This has been an interesting post to read. The invulnerability won't fix rogues but it's something.

For me is two things:

(1) Wonky procs- if we do not proc we cannot sweep. I swear blood arti procs after I clear then bam proc. This has got to be looked at. If we could get a better guarantee on our procs this would go way further in fixing rogues than the invulnerability.

(2) Weaps- StS handed over extremely OP weapons to mages and wars and so season after season they dominate. This altered the entire game. What do we have? Yeah silence here.....

I do appreciate StS taking steps to boost the rogues back to viability in the game. So TYTY!

[Lazzer]

+1 for the survival proposal. I might come back to play

You can +1 on both, survival and damage. No issues with it. It's part of the initial changes which was meant to be implemented.

Or do you feel like right now only survivability matters the most? Please share your thoughts, it helps.

Cuz right now the people who have voted "No" have not suggested an alternative or explanation as to why they chose this. Which is very problematic since we have no clue why a Rogue player would not want more damage in some way to assist with the bad clearing in the current meta in addition to the shielding.

[Lazzer]

This has been an interesting post to read. The invulnerability won't fix rogues but it's something.

For me is two things:

(1) Wonky procs- if we do not proc we cannot sweep. I swear blood arti procs after I clear then bam proc. This has got to be looked at. If we could get a better guarantee on our procs this would go way further in fixing rogues than the invulnerability.

(2) Weaps- StS handed over extremely OP weapons to mages and wars and so season after season they dominate. This altered the entire game. What do we have? Yeah silence here.....

I do appreciate StS taking steps to boost the rogues back to viability in the game. So TYTY!

Yeah OP weapons scaling with haste% (RUSK) while Rogues were forced to look at the sky hoping Cinco sees their tears. All good though, I totally get devs point if they don't want to add haste to bows. Lets look at alternatives instead to make the clear OP like Mage and Warr.

The clear can be so much better imo if RS scales up in AOE/ damage/bleed as a choice on the skill tree. I hope they implement it. The sooner the better. This thread has already caused a player to come back to AL @iheartu.

@Cinco you're getting more traffic towards AL cuz of this brilliant poll. Please try and help implement both the suggestions you intended to include. This probably won't fix all the issues with clearing maps but is indeed a BRILLIANT start.

[Read]

This has been an interesting post to read. The invulnerability won't fix rogues but it's something.

For me is two things:

(1) Wonky procs- if we do not proc we cannot sweep. I swear blood arti procs after I clear then bam proc. This has got to be looked at. If we could get a better guarantee on our procs this would go way further in fixing rogues than the invulnerability.

(2) Weaps- StS handed over extremely OP weapons to mages and wars and so season after season they dominate. This altered the entire game. What do we have? Yeah silence here.....

I do appreciate StS taking steps to boost the rogues back to viability in the game. So TYTY!

I felt the same with the artifact, it tends to be stubborn to proc. What i try now is always SSS and Shadow Piercer with Final Flurry. Those additional hits help alot without you knowing. When using both of those usually all the procs activate to your favor. Sadly not always though.

If they made Noxious Bolt to hit multiple enemies without requiring charge like a fire ball it would very very helpful too. That way we can use Nox as well to proc stuff.

I have a good feeling gear released from now will take into consideration Rogue class as well before going live. Since literally every one so far agrees on a Rogue buff xD.

[Americanarmy]

This has been an interesting post to read. The invulnerability won't fix rogues but it's something.

For me is two things:

(1) Wonky procs- if we do not proc we cannot sweep. I swear blood arti procs after I clear then bam proc. This has got to be looked at. If we could get a better guarantee on our procs this would go way further in fixing rogues than the invulnerability.

(2) Weaps- StS handed over extremely OP weapons to mages and wars and so season after season they dominate. This altered the entire game. What do we have? Yeah silence here.....

I do appreciate StS taking steps to boost the rogues back to viability in the game. So TYTY!

Plus if u removed ults and skills from clasess we end up with the same character just diff looks a alien man and a women after lvl 76 every class equipment have the same proc and abilitys which makes no sense shouldnt proc reflect what that class main advantage is like tanking and aggro mob clearing and control and fast attacks/boss killing


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[Lazzer]

@Cinco is it possible to leave the movement speed of 15% as it is in the Rogue kit by implementing it to Whirling Razors which currently increases dodge by 20%. Rogues will never be needing that extra dodge whatsoever having a invulnerability period of 3 seconds right?

Then perhaps we can implement the Shielding and Damage increase in this way:

For the shielding : Spinning Freedom can have 2 splits (Banking Blades) and (Blade Barrier).
Blade Barrier being the 2-3 sec invulnerability.

To implement the AOE increase and damage increase we can change Bleeding Cuts to "Charged Razor Shield surrounds you with a larger radius of Whirling Knives"

Then for the Bleeding Cuts 2 splits (Sharpened Barbs) and (Furious Rage).

Sharpened Barbs as a 100% bleed instead of 50% (DOT damage similar to Fire Ball Time Shift)
Furious Rage as a damage increase on the blades with a good amount of damage on contact with targets.


Or leave Sharpened Blades as it is with 50% and change Blunted Barbs to Furious Rage. However imo, 100% bleed will be a extremely nice touch to the clear, as we can run around carrying a DOT similiar to a Fireball in theory.

@Cinco Any chance this can work? Please let us know what you think about it as well. No one seems to have a alternate suggestion as of right now. Also I can't think of what might be a potential issue with these implementations for Rogues. So please help us understand any potential issues if there are any.

Please forgive my constant responses. Poll ends tomorrow if I'm not mistaken, so I'm trying my best here to provide and gain feedback.

[DxxZz]

I don't play rogue nor pvp but since the shield animation doesn't look like actual shield in comparison to warrior, mage, glowstick/nekro AA, etc. Plus to add uniqueness for one class despite everyone doing the same damage (elemental sets) but with rogue totally lacking defensive traits and not at all meant to tank damage, wouldn't it be a little more role accurate that they should have concealing effects? keep the 3 seconds invulnerability (2 if not charged) as main skill branch but also add alongside perk options to go under 2 seconds invisibility. Under this state enemies won't get aggro-ed or when casted halfway in the middle of mob swarms they will just stop attacking the caster. Arrow damage from indigo skeletons hurts a lot but the "push" from spider disrupts the flow the most (getting pushed into mushroom edge) leading to a constant death if not neutralized quickly or simply just dish out very high damage from the beginning and not let those land (hence also suggesting a damage buff). Whereas invisibility will delay the spider's push effect because it often happens in a red area after their few basic attacks (correct me if i'm wrong).

But not sure how the flying blades damaging part implement with this to make the most sense out of it. Likewise taken into event scenario (e.g temple) or portal zones (e.g hedourah), just my naife 1 cent.

[Read]

The trend is clear: if we extrapolate the current voting pattern over the next month or two, both the Survivability Proposal and Damage Proposal are likely to gain support for implementation. @Cinco and the dev team, please consider this. Thank you so much for engaging with the AL community!

[Americanarmy]

I don't play rogue nor pvp but since the shield animation doesn't look like actual shield in comparison to warrior, mage, glowstick/nekro AA, etc. Plus to add uniqueness for one class despite everyone doing the same damage (elemental sets) but with rogue totally lacking defensive traits and not at all meant to tank damage, wouldn't it be a little more role accurate that they should have concealing effects? keep the 3 seconds invulnerability (2 if not charged) as main skill branch but also add alongside perk options to go under 2 seconds invisibility. Under this state enemies won't get aggro-ed or when casted halfway in the middle of mob swarms they will just stop attacking the caster. Arrow damage from indigo skeletons hurts a lot but the "push" from spider disrupts the flow the most (getting pushed into mushroom edge) leading to a constant death if not neutralized quickly or simply just dish out very high damage from the beginning and not let those land (hence also suggesting a damage buff). Whereas invisibility will delay the spider's push effect because it often happens in a red area after their few basic attacks (correct me if i'm wrong).

But not sure how the flying blades damaging part implement with this to make the most sense out of it. Likewise taken into event scenario (e.g temple) or portal zones (e.g hedourah), just my naife 1 cent.

The invisibility sounds awsome mobs and boss stop focusing on you and u cant take direct dmg but you can take indirect dmg like splash dmg like if warrior was targeted by a bomb and u were to close to it you both take dmg sounds cool tbh


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[Zafiina]

Survivability a definite plus. The other issue I see, is the ability to multi kill, the mass dmg the other 2 classes deliver in mobs, way out performs rogues. Either way, looking forward to a buff to this class, it's performance as fallen way behind the other 2 in recent years

[Cinco]

Thanks for all the great feedback!

Closing the thread now that the poll is closed.


What comes next...

++ SURVIVAL
The team has swapped out the Level 80 damage reflection Perk with a new Perk that gives you 2 sec. of invulnerability, 3 sec. if charged.

++ DAMAGE
In the interest of giving Rogues something to help clear mobs (that will scale with various procs and other methods of dealing damage) we've also swapped out the Level 40 'push back' Perk with a new Perk that gives you +15 additional damage to non-boss monsters when charged.

Testing on these new features is a priority so that we can make them available to Rogues before the Twilight Temple event drops tomorrow.

Thanks again for all of the constructive feedback and creative ideas!