Debate about the new dungeon timer system

[ProSophist]

Note to reader: Please do not get this thread closed by starting a flame war or posting useless rubbish. The purpose of this thread is to civilly discuss thoughts, ideas, or complaints about the new timer system's effect on the Season 1 leaderboards for Crypts and Elite map records.

After yesterday's patch, people are now aware that the dungeon timers have been change. As of right now, the timer starts once a mob is aggro'd, rather than killing a mob. The biggest dilemma in this patch is that most people can't seem to understand that real effect that it does on the leaderboards.

The patch didn't improve anybody's chances of getting in the leaderboard, it got diminished. It basically grants the current players on the LB a lock on their spot.

Since the timer now starts on the initial aggro of a mob, there is NO WAY anybody can beat any of the current timers. Most of the runs were careful planned and organized through trial and error to achieve those timers, which is no way shape or form considered cheating. Pre-patch, you could guesstimate the distance, time, and number of mobs needed to be killed in order to spawn the boss. Post-patch, those variables are irrelevant since the timer starts the moment a mob is pulled.

I have no problem having this new system in Season 2. However, if this system permanently stays for the remainder of S1, best believe that the current Crypts timers will NEVER be beat, and the Elite maps will most likely stay as well, which means whatever you see on the leaderboard right now will most likely be the final look of it.

Am I a little ticked off that I can no longer challenge the current records? Yes.
Do I care? Not so much. However, rest assured that many people are irate because S2 isn't due till in about 2 weeks(optimistically), and that it is more than enough time to try and beat the current records. Although I do have several spots on the board, I would like a fair shot on every category on the same playing field that these records were set.

More importantly, does this new system give MORE players a BETTER chance of getting in the leaderboards in Season 2? An absolute, emphatic NO. I've seen a couple of people run this logic through their head, which boggles my mind. I don't see how this makes timed runs easier. The same rule applies to everyone, and if anything, the top timed run players will be able to adjust.

And yes, this is a big deal. It has been announced that people on the upper echelon of the leaderboards will be rewarded as the season ends.

Input from STS would be appreciated.

[Astrocat]

The biggest dilemma in this patch is that most people can't seem to understand that real effect that it does on the leaderboards.
The patch didn't improve anybody's chances of getting in the leaderboard, it got diminished. It basically grants the current players on the LB a lock on their spot.

Since the timer now starts on the initial aggro of a mob, there is NO WAY anybody can beat any of the current timers. Most of the runs were careful planned and organized through trial and error to achieve those timers, which is no way shape or form a cheating.

Thumb up for this. :peaceful:

[Muhmota]

It's almost like a planned soft lock/end of the season by sts. As pvp seasons in Wow ended a couple weeks before a content update was released. Allowing devs to calculate awards and titles and such.

Just a conspiracy. They forgot to announce end of season when they should have. And didn't want a backlash of a sudden announcement. So they patched in a soft lock.


Just a thought.......

[Justg]

We hear ya. Let us all get back in the office on Monday and we'll discuss.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

- g

[Astrocat]

We hear ya. Let us all get back in the office on Monday and we'll discuss.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

- g

You too, G! :)

[Limsi]

Timely reply from the devs; there's no better feeling that people who are deemed responsible for a community like AL would make their constituents feel cared for. Now let us patiently wait for the development and hope to get a glimpse of the better future ahead of us.

[mafiainc42]

ive been with sts since start and what i do know is this they change things every now and then so does this mean every time they change things there gonna reset everything that people have accomplished and more importantly are they gonna refund ALL the platnium to everyone who used it doing the elixer run part of the leaderboards?

[Raxin]

My pet starts timer breaking boxes at spawn..... Y sts y

[Royce]

It's pretty simple. Clearly the leaderboards must be reset, and either the old times just get tossed out, or they call the time of the last patch the end of season 1, give out awards or whatever, and move on.

[LwMark]

ive been with sts since start and what i do know is this they change things every now and then so does this mean every time they change things there gonna reset everything that people have accomplished and more importantly are they gonna refund ALL the platnium to everyone who used it doing the elixer run part of the leaderboards?
Reset: yes
Return: no

[Phoenician1]

Thoughts

1) Not sure it would be possible to beat the current scores, although since I think the counters go down to fractions of seconds, it might be. But if not, then I think the issue is moot.

2) This issue might just go away when the new update comes out in a few days, and the current 'season' presumably will end. (That said, the timing of this change could have been better.)

And this brings up a possible addition to the game (but also a potential can of worms): will previous seasons' times be memorialized anywhere in-game? Or will each seasons' times merely pass into memory? The leaders themselves will get a nice vanity, but will anyone else be able to marvel at their accomplishments? (And given this season's controversy, is this something the community wants?)

[Bashem]

Id like to add the crypts and tomb had a patch a while ago were instead of timer ending after last mob died you had to run back to the exit to end now. So if you revert this patch as yes it made it harder revert that one also please as it makes those runs harder to beat. If u revert one because of complaints revert all timer adjustments u did over last few weeks not just the most recent. We havent even bothered with tombs krypts since you changed when timer stoped. Either end season one now or revert all adjustments till season two thats fair.

[Johnn92]

I don't like the timer anyways.

[Azibas]

I am disappointed about the behaviour of how the runs work, thus effectively closing the runs. The weekend is my best time to actually find a team and really work together to see if we can achieve the best an AL player can get. No matter what season you have the same ppl with the same gear will always take over the leaderboards. There is a pile of time that goes into discussion and doing it the wrong way many times, time everything to be perfect with four ppl is not an easy task. And the sense of accomplishment when it does work together is awesome. Im going to be a continual advocate of this, but I honestly would like the timed runs to also have a daily realm record. Or something like a cap on maximum damage. Just something that evens the playing field for everyone and gives everyone a chance to see their name up on the lb.

[Deathpunch]

As far as leveling the playing field, require all enemies to be killed to stop the timer. Not much help for season one, but for two. Clock starts when an enemy is attacked, clock stops when the last one dies. Seems fair to me. STS, just make sure that first mob is back far enough that we don't have to worry about our pets starting it before we're ready.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.

[Bashem]

I am disappointed about the behaviour of how the runs work, thus effectively closing the runs. The weekend is my best time to actually find a team and really work together to see if we can achieve the best an AL player can get. No matter what season you have the same ppl with the same gear will always take over the leaderboards. There is a pile of time that goes into discussion and doing it the wrong way many times, time everything to be perfect with four ppl is not an easy task. And the sense of accomplishment when it does work together is awesome. Im going to be a continual advocate of this, but I honestly would like the timed runs to also have a daily realm record. Or something like a cap on maximum damage. Just something that evens the playing field for everyone and gives everyone a chance to see their name up on the lb.
Everyone can achieve the same gear atleast right now i dont understand a damage cap. Thats basicaly saying i dont have the best gear cause i couldnt spend the time to get it. I want on leader boards but cant beat the people that spent the time to do so and organize. Listen everyone has the chance to get on the boards if they stop messin with timers mid seasons you just have to want it and find others to work on it also. No ones fault if your not on it but your own. Lb been up and runnin for weeks now the seasons almost over and the complaints come in. Cant please them all. Take the time and do it if you want it dont wait till the end longer you wait bigger chance you wont get and a patch may hurt chances.

[Phoenician1]

Liking both Deathpunch's and Azibas's suggestions.

[mafiainc42]

i agree with most of the stuff that has been said but for season 2. not all gamers are created equal so u can get the lvl playing field notion out of your heads. What will the excuse be going forward when the same names are there every season!!!

Because believe me and remember this post they will be.

[ProSophist]

Again, I think people are missing the point on this thread. Yes, the issues will DEFINITELY disappear for next season, but what we are talking about is THIS season. What I am trying to point out is that the patch unofficially ended Season 1. Because of the disparity between the timer system pre-patch and post-patch, there is basically nothing you can do to beat the current records. Now whether this change was inadvertent or not, the lack of advance notice prior to this patch irritated a lot of people because they weren't able to get one last desperation shot at the leaderboard.

To put it more simply, think of the leaderboard as the cap vanity. You are 500 exp away from getting your elite vanity and you decide to put if off until . The next day, STS plugs in the next elite cap without advance notice, so you end up missing on the previous vanity. Wouldn't we all be pissed? Wouldn't everyone be clamoring as to why they did not warn the people about this?

We are talking about Season 1 folks. It doesn't matter what system we start off at Season 2 because everyone would be starting by the same rules and mechanics.



i agree with most of the stuff that has been said but for season 2. not all gamers are created equal so u can get the lvl playing field notion out of your heads. What will the excuse be going forward when the same names are there every season!!!

Because believe me and remember this post they will be.

Not all gamers are created equal? Sure. But what does have anything to do in creating an even playing field?
Nobody is making excuses. The argument is that because of the patch, it basically grants current record holders a lock on their spot, but people were never notified in advance nor do we know whether this was intentional or not. Take note that S2 won't be here till at least a week or two, and everyone would want tho use that time to challenge the records. Yes I do agree that the current leaders will always have a leg up on the competition, but again, that's not the point.

I think you either misunderstood or never read the first post. I suggest you go over it again.

[Astrocat]

Again, I think people are missing the point on this thread. Yes, the issues will DEFINITELY disappear for next season, but what we are talking about is THIS season. What I am trying to point out is that the patch unofficially ended Season 1. Because of the disparity between the timer system pre-patch and post-patch, there is basically nothing you can do to beat the current records. Now whether this change was inadvertent or not, the lack of advance notice prior to this patch irritated a lot of people because they weren't able to get one last go at the leaderboard.

To put it more simply, think of the leaderboard as the cap vanity. You are 500 exp away from getting your elite vanity and you decide to put if off until . The next day, STS plugs in the next elite cap without advance notice, so you end up missing on the previous vanity. Wouldn't we all be pissed? Wouldn't everyone be clamoring as to why they did not warn the people about this?

We are talking about Season 1 folks. It doesn't matter what system we start off at Season 2 because everyone would be starting by the same rules and mechanics.




Not all gamers are created equal? Sure. But what does have anything to do in creating an even playing field?
Nobody is making excuses. The argument is that because of the patch, it basically grants current record holders a lock on their spot, but people were never notified in advance nor do we know whether this was intentional or not. Take note that S2 won't be here till at least a week or two, and everyone would want tho use that time to challenge the records. Yes I do agree that the current leaders will always have a leg up on the competition, but again, that's not the point.

I think you either misunderstood or never read the first post. I suggest you go over it again.

All true, boe :)

[Bashem]

You guys are also missing the point that other patches affected lb times not just this one my team held those spots then a patch happened we decided forget it. I get were your comin from on the update point but if they revert its not just this one that needs to be reverted. If your realy talkin about being fair

[Deathpunch]

You guys are also missing the point that other patches affected lb times not just this one my team held those spots then a patch happened we decided forget it. I get were your comin from on the update point but if they revert its not just this one that needs to be reverted. If your realy talkin about being fair

No other patch made the current times practically unbeatable. Your argument is invalid.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.

[Bashem]

Ok so you call foul on one but no one can on one your failing to mention? Sorry im gona have to agree to disagree. For krypts and tombs the timer stoping after you reach the exit vs how it was last mob killed does change it from the way people got it on lb now. so ill back this topic up if all times issues are reverted till season two.and ill add my team held those spots then another team beat our times then patch came out makin you have to hit exit to stop and we didnt come here complaining....

[Astrocat]

O.o

[Deathpunch]

Ok so you call foul on one but no one can on one your failing to mention? Sorry im gona have to agree to disagree. For krypts and tombs the timer stoping after you reach the exit vs how it was last mob killed does change it from the way people got it on lb now. so ill back this topic up if all times issues are reverted till season two.and ill add my team held those spots then another team beat our times then patch came out makin you have to hit exit to stop and we didnt come here complaining....

sure.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.

[Astrocat]

sure.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.

Ah, now this should get some of my thanks. But i'm out of them, so +1.

[Deathpunch]

Dude needs to take a breath.

Look, this patch has changed the timer and the way it runs at a fundamental level making the times that are on the boards unbeatable. The change isn't really the issue, the timing is. Lucky you, you had a time up there. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be squawking about how unfair it is now. God knows you weren't afraid to squall about the prices and plat purchased gold inflating the cs prices out of your reach. That leads me to believe that you only want change when it benefits you, not when it's good for the community.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.

[Astrocat]

Dude needs to take a breath.

Look, this patch has changed the timer and the way it runs at a fundamental level making the times that are on the boards unbeatable. The change isn't really the issue, the timing is. Lucky you, you had a time up there. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be squawking about how unfair it is now. God knows you weren't afraid to squall about the prices and plat purchased gold inflating the cs prices out of your reach. That leads me to believe that you only want change when it benefits you, not when it's good for the community.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.

Now that's the kind of post that gives a 100% true fact.

[Bashem]

Ok im done here you guys are just on some crusade. I said i agree with your point if they also remove the update affecting timed runs in krypt and tomb. I also said i had lb spots affected by these u I pdates makin it harder to reclaim so the shoe was on the other foot. still think plat bought gold never gave the economy a good start and ive bought gold with plat so im talkin for the people without cash to spend(for the comunity) i never said prices were out of my reach lol i just understand were people are comin from on gold. Canop hacked stats to get were he was. Im not for myself if they roll back and somone beats times kudos for them. But to cry about one update when theres been more then one affecting the times you get is dumb. Ill also point out with the newtimer my crew reset the elixire elite bael run yesterday sooo it is possible to still top times.

[Astrocat]

Ok im done here you guys are just on some crusade. I said i agree with your point if they also remove the update affecting timed runs in krypt and tomb. I also said i had lb spots affected by these u I pdates makin it harder to reclaim so the shoe was on the other foot. still think plat bought gold never gave the economy a good start and ive bought gold with plat so im talkin for the people without cash to spend(for the comunity) i never said prices were out of my reach lol i just understand were people are comin from on gold. Canop hacked stats to get were he was. Im not for myself if they roll back and somone beats times kudos for them. But to cry about one update when theres been more then one affecting the times you get is dumb. Ill also point out with the newtimer my crew reset the elixire elite bael run yesterday sooo it is possible to still top times.

No one was ''crying'' or being ''rude'' until you came to express anger to them. Just saying.

[Cero]

it is truly unfair...

Before patch-
the clock wont tick til on of the mob got killed.
so you can lure mob and get them killed in secs, thus its shown in LB.

after patch-
clock will tick once you cross the line or attack one mob.

witht this those who got the Dunguen spots(watchers/kraag tomb) are assured.

[sandtree]

Actually my only issue with the timer is pets breaking boxes at zone in. I like the new timer other than that.

[mafiainc42]

Dude needs to take a breath.

Look, this patch has changed the timer and the way it runs at a fundamental level making the times that are on the boards unbeatable. The change isn't really the issue, the timing is. Lucky you, you had a time up there. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot you'd be squawking about how unfair it is now. God knows you weren't afraid to squall about the prices and plat purchased gold inflating the cs prices out of your reach. That leads me to believe that you only want change when it benefits you, not when it's good for the community.

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Note to reader: This post should likely be read in a sarcastic tone of voice.


The pure times where up for a very long time. U people could not beat them and now are looking for a away to void these times. This patch was just put up capp is coming soon the world is not fair i assure u the people that have posted on this thread more in likely will never see there name on the boards to concerned about having 20,000 forum posts then actualy puttin in time on these games to actually be on the lbs. trust me the shoe will never be on the other foot where im concerned. Im 100% for the community and yes the times that me and my team are unbeatable now and fyi they where unbeatable before and will be unbeatable going forward....

[Astrocat]

The pure times where up for a very long time. U people could not beat them and now are looking for a away to void these times. This patch was just put up capp is coming soon the world is not fair i assure u the people that have posted on this thread more in likely will never see there name on the boards to concerned about having 20,000 forum posts then actualy puttin in time on these games to actually be on the lbs. trust me the shoe will never be on the other foot where im concerned. Im 100% for the community and yes the times that me and my team are unbeatable now and fyi they where unbeatable before and will be unbeatable going forward....

You can't know that. ;)

[CrimsonTider]

Current solution: Revert back to how things were prior to last patch.

Season 2 sution: Clear maps. I have yet to understand how teams can say they are the best when all they did was rush the bosses. My sense of accomplishment comes with clearing the entire map as fast as possible. This is where real strategy comes into play.

[Delphina]

Please no flaming in this thread. Keep it a constructive. I don't want to have to lock it.

[mafiainc42]

Current solution: Revert back to how things were prior to last patch.

Season 2 sution: Clear maps. I have yet to understand how teams can say they are the best when all they did was rush the bosses. My sense of accomplishment comes with clearing the entire map as fast as possible. This is where real strategy comes into play.

You go ahead and rush the boss dude and see what happens.

[Astrocat]

Please no flaming in this thread. Keep it a constructive. I don't want to have to lock it.

Agreed

[CrimsonTider]

You go ahead and rush the boss dude and see what happens.

Not going to bite your flame bait. We all know how those low times were achieved.

[ProSophist]

Current solution: Revert back to how things were prior to last patch.

Season 2 sution: Clear maps. I have yet to understand how teams can say they are the best when all they did was rush the bosses. My sense of accomplishment comes with clearing the entire map as fast as possible. This is where real strategy comes into play.

This is what I personally would like to see.

[Deathpunch]

Current solution: Revert back to how things were prior to last patch.

Season 2 sution: Clear maps. I have yet to understand how teams can say they are the best when all they did was rush the bosses. My sense of accomplishment comes with clearing the entire map as fast as possible. This is where real strategy comes into play.

I don't know why it wasn't like this from the beginning. Sometimes I think STS does stuff like this on purpose to stir up the community. :)

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Sent from my Nexus 7

[Airikay]

We hear ya. Let us all get back in the office on Monday and we'll discuss.

Thanks and have a great weekend!

- g

What? Developers are people too?!? Blasphemy!

[Squishyness]

give them crappy rewards and start s2

[Phoenician1]

give them crappy rewards and start s2

*chortle* "For their Amazing Exploits in....." naw, that's just gonna get me in trouble again. :highly_amused:

+1 to the comment

[mafiainc42]

give them crappy rewards and start s2

*chortle* "For their Amazing Exploits in....." naw, that's just gonna get me in trouble again. :highly_amused:

+1 to the comment

:-)

[Patricks]

All timed dungeons should have a gated entry that you have to break open like the beginning of the hauntlet. Thats my suggestion for season 2.

Timer starting after first attack is not a great system. You can dismiss ur pet and go gather the mobs; the timer wont start unless you attack. Doesnt really make sense that way.

[gundamsone]

Wiping the boards clean would be unfair to those who are on it. I woudn't call the teams up on there abusing exploits...it just alot and alot of trial and error with a bit of luck.

STS should temporarily revert the update until the start of S2 to satisfy everyone

[Astrocat]

Wiping the boards clean would be unfair to those who are on it. I woudn't call the teams up on there abusing exploits...it just alot and alot of trial and error with a bit of luck.

STS should temporarily revert the update until the start of S2 to satisfy everyone

Good idea.

[Astrocat]

All timed dungeons should have a gated entry that you have to break open like the beginning of the hauntlet. Thats my suggestion for season 2.

Timer starting after first attack is not a great system. You can dismiss ur pet and go gather the mobs; the timer wont start unless you attack. Doesnt really make sense that way.

Btw you have already 300k+ kills xD you should take a break xD
/Nicely

[Patricks]

All timed dungeons should have a gated entry that you have to break open like the beginning of the hauntlet. Thats my suggestion for season 2.

Timer starting after first attack is not a great system. You can dismiss ur pet and go gather the mobs; the timer wont start unless you attack. Doesnt really make sense that way.

Btw you have already 300k+ kills xD you should take a break xD
/Nicely

You are probably right lol

[Astrocat]

You are probably right lol

XD!

[Genuinous]

To be honest I'm not too fussed about the leaderboards, tried it a few times but never got on it. Which is just fine. So I don't mind the fact whether the time starts with aggro or first kill, does not matter much to me.

What does matter to me however are elite runs. For example in elite village there is a box on the left, which if you arrive too close to your pet will explode, starting your timer. When you're running in a party this will stop others from entering (so does without a party, but in general the slots get filled up quickly), making it quite annoying. Or only solution being taking on and off pets at every reentry.

I do think this is just absolutely ridiculous and I'm sure someone has already mentioned it. So all I'm saying is that pulling aggro as a time starter is a good idea (though im not too fussed either way), but please make sure that timers wont start until players actually start playing the map, ie remove all boxes and vases from near the start of the maps. Also it'll give players a chance to talk through their strategy for beating the map/time, which I think is quite necessary.

[mafiainc42]

Wiping the boards clean would be unfair to those who are on it. I woudn't call the teams up on there abusing exploits...it just alot and alot of trial and error with a bit of luck.

STS should temporarily revert the update until the start of S2 to satisfy everyone

i agree exploit is a hard accusation(which u did not accused). these times elite/pure/enhanched runs where set in just. was every mob killed no(nor did we rush any boss,not possible to spawn boss that way) any dev wanna know how this should be done(leaderboard time runs) then pm me.

and by the way to all players on here that wanna complain. Me and my guild just beat bael enhanced by 6minutes with new timer adjustment.

Names Judgement beast modes my game.. What ya didnt know???

[Justg]

To be honest I'm not too fussed about the leaderboards, tried it a few times but never got on it. Which is just fine. So I don't mind the fact whether the time starts with aggro or first kill, does not matter much to me.

What does matter to me however are elite runs. For example in elite village there is a box on the left, which if you arrive too close to your pet will explode, starting your timer. When you're running in a party this will stop others from entering (so does without a party, but in general the slots get filled up quickly), making it quite annoying. Or only solution being taking on and off pets at every reentry.

I do think this is just absolutely ridiculous and I'm sure someone has already mentioned it. So all I'm saying is that pulling aggro as a time starter is a good idea (though im not too fussed either way), but please make sure that timers wont start until players actually start playing the map, ie remove all boxes and vases from near the start of the maps. Also it'll give players a chance to talk through their strategy for beating the map/time, which I think is quite necessary.

Ya we agree with you here, there are a few destructibles that need to be cleaned up.

We'll have more info for you about the leaderboards and the new aggro mechanic tomorrow.

[BodMaster]

Ya we agree with you here, there are a few destructibles that need to be cleaned up.

We'll have more info for you about the leaderboards and the new aggro mechanic tomorrow.

Also the same thing, for Elite Village, pet decides to take a wander to the far left of the spawn point breaking boxes starting the timer for the run before I am able to close down the "Times Board".

@LBs and Aggro, looking forward to it.

The times are unrealistic at this time, for newer players to even try at those times, but for the 2nd Season I believe you are on to something.

I'd be happy with even a day at getting a chance to give these a try, I've tested, and the time it takes one to run from start to boss (Watchers 1) is around 25 seconds. (Far from the actual current times)

[Cashews]

This patch also makes farming elite jarl with a party a pain because half the time when you go through portal you are already aggroing an enemy and your other teammates can't join. I seriously spend more time getting all 4 party members in the same zone then I do actually farming.