Skyward Smash Vs Windmill

[ShadowGunX]

Both of these r great aoe skill.
So of which these two r better aoe skill?

[Piosidon]

Windmill

[TheLowerLight]

hmm . . depends. . . windmill can have 3 hits, but you can use smash 3 times before windmill is off cooldown lol. . .

[ShadowGunX]

hmm . . depends. . . windmill can have 3 hits, but you can use smash 3 times before windmill is off cooldown lol. . .

well although it hit 3 mobs, u can move freely around hitting almost evry enemy. u can kill enemies pretty fast rather than spamming hammer.

[Bless]

Aoe wise, windmill but dps wise sky

[Kenoon]

Threat output wise, Windmill wins Skyward Smash.
Damage wise, Skyward Smash is stronger.
Skyward Smash spamming has higher dps provided there is consistent mana regen.

[ShadowGunX]

Threat output wise, Windmill wins Skyward Smash.
Damage wise, Skyward Smash is stronger.
Skyward Smash spamming has higher dps provided there is consistent mana regen.

well well well; although smash hit hard bt for one time hit only. windmill hit 10x times than hammer lol. so windmill has more total dmg. :-)

[Delirium]

Windmill may have a higher total damage per use, but you can use skyward smash multiple times for every 1 use of windmill. Also, with skyward smash, EVERYTHING within 6 meters gets hit--not just 3 enemies. If there are 5+ enemies around you, skyward smash is much more efficient.

Windmill is better for PUG tomb runs because usually stuff gets spread out and you need to move around to hit everything, but in a party that lets you gather the mobs properly, skyward smash is better in my opinion.

[Kenoon]

Dps = Skyward Smash
Tanking = Windmill

[Delirium]

dps is directly related to tanking, so that is a contradictory statement..

I use skyward smash and chest splitter on my tank, and I've literally never come across another warrior using windmill who could take aggro from me.. not even for a second. I personally don't think windmill is better than skyward smash for ANYTHING except for doing tomb runs.

[Kenoon]

Play more runs in Jarl.
Most of the time i'm taking the aggro as tank.
Have not seen Skyward Smash taking over neither.
Probably we get to meet.

[Raxin]

dps is directly related to tanking, so that is a contradictory statement..

I use skyward smash and chest splitter on my tank, and I've literally never come across another warrior using windmill who could take aggro from me.. not even for a second. I personally don't think windmill is better than skyward smash for ANYTHING except for doing tomb runs.
Come se me bro and ill show you one war with windmill that will take aggro off you

[Delirium]

Okay.. my IGN is Elfstone. Hit me up whenever you want =)

[Raxin]

Ill hit you up ingame we are guildies. :-)
ill also go farther to say the 10%dam +on sky will get shat upon by the 15% per swing wind as the linear bonuses progress with lvl increases. Even more if the 15% stacks per hit until skill is done.

[Delirium]

The range on SM (18m) is literally 3x the range of WM (6m).. plus I can use it almost 3 times for every 1 WM you use. Also, SM damage is 131-164 while WM is only 103-129--that negates your 5% bonus damage and THEN some.

I don't know.. maybe WM IS better on paper.. but from my experience, I've never lost aggro to a warrior using WM--even one with better gear. We'll see I suppose =)

[Crystalite]

The range on SM (18m) is literally 3x the range of WM (6m).. plus I can use it almost 3 times for every 1 WM you use. Also, SM damage is 131-164 while WM is only 103-129--that negates your 5% bonus damage and THEN some.

I don't know.. maybe WM IS better on paper.. but from my experience, I've never lost aggro to a warrior using WM--even one with better gear. We'll see I suppose =)

We can do some math for boss fight(since that is most important) using your stats. SM cd is 4sec. WM cd is 10sec.

In 20sec and assuming we do not factor in skill casting time, 5 casts of SM= (131+164)/2x5=737.5
In 20sec and assuming we do not factor in skill casting time, 2 casts of WM= (103+129)/2x4x2=928
(if you are wondering where the 4 for WM comes from, it is due to the 4 procs that each cast of WM has. Note also that for aoe, each of these 4 procs allows 3 mobs to be hit. This means a total of 12 hits for 1 cast of WM.)

Note the above situation does not factor in charged cast time. Using SM would require longer cast times over 5 casts, which would allow the WM warrior to use additional normal attacks or other skills during this period.


For aoe trash mobs situation:
Let us consider the group of 5 mobs before jarl as an example.
In 20sec, 5 casts of SM= (131+164)/2x5x5= 3,687.5
In 20sec, 2 casts of WM= (103+129)/2x4x2x3= 2,784
This assumes SM hits all 5 mobs on all 5 casts and mobs remain stacked close together. Also, Note that longer charged cast time for 5 SM. WM user can use CS during this period to add in more dmg. However, for simplicity's sake, it appears that SM has potential for more dmg for aoe situation of 5mobs.

Hope I have not made any errors in my math or logical reasoning. :)

[ShadowGunX]

We can do some math for boss fight(since that is most important) using your stats. SM cd is 4sec. WM cd is 10sec.

In 20sec and assuming we do not factor in skill casting time, 5 casts of SM= (131+164)/2x5=737.5
In 20sec and assuming we do not factor in skill casting time, 2 casts of WM= (103+129)/2x4x2=928
(if you are wondering where the 4 for WM comes from, it is due to the 4 procs that each cast of WM has. Note also that for aoe, each of these 4 procs allows 3 mobs to be hit. This means a total of 12 hits for 1 cast of WM.)

Note the above situation does not factor in charged cast time. Using SM would require longer cast times over 5 casts, which would allow the WM warrior to use additional normal attacks or other skills during this period.


For aoe trash mobs situation:
Let us consider the group of 5 mobs before jarl as an example.
In 20sec, 5 casts of SM= (131+164)/2x5x5= 3,687.5
In 20sec, 2 casts of WM= (103+129)/2x4x2x3= 2,784
This assumes SM hits all 5 mobs on all 5 casts and mobs remain stacked close together. Also, Note that longer charged cast time for 5 SM. WM user can use CS during this period to add in more dmg. However, for simplicity's sake, it appears that SM has potential for more dmg for aoe situation of 5mobs.

Hope I have not made any errors in my math or logical reasoning. :)

good maths B-) bt u can use WM moving around in circle until u hit all mobs. 3hit of WM is flat hit. moving around with toon while WM is on will hit almost all nd in jst one WM use we can eliminate those 5mobs :-) while 2-3 SM is needed to eliminate it :-P

[Crystalite]

good maths B-) bt u can use WM moving around in circle until u hit all mobs. 3hit of WM is flat hit. moving around with toon while WM is on will hit almost all nd in jst one WM use we can eliminate those 5mobs :-) while 2-3 SM is needed to eliminate it :-P

Hehe thx. =P

But oooh, the idea that WM can hit all mobs (or more than 3) while moving is a misconception. The way to verify this is by entering tombs solo (try tombs 2 if no party. Less peeps farming) and luring as many mobs as possible into an alcove. When you use WM and start moving around, you will see that it doesnt hit all mobs, but still only 3 per proc, for a total of 4 procs x 3 mobs per proc.
There are 2 methods for verifying this:
1) This is seen via the hp bars of mobs you hit. Very few hp bars seen, meaning you hit only so many targets each. Likewise, this applies to say a mage's fireball. Even though the description says fireball can bit all targets near you, this is in fact not the case. Again, once you test it out yourself, you will know what I mean. :)
2) A second method of double-checking this is that once you know how much dmg your WM(or any skill in question) does per hit on a mob, as you clear the entire group of mobs, you realize there are many mobs that remain undamaged by yout previous casts of WM, as they are all at full hp. E.g. If your WM or fireball had been able to damage ALL mobs, you will only need another hit to finish them off. But you can see they are at full hp.

The same goes for skyward smash. Contrary to what most people may think, even if you stack 10-20 mobs as close as possible, it appears you can only hit a few of them each time, roughly 4-5.

Conclusion: Damage calculation for SM can only hit a few mobs (maybe around 5 or thereabouts) even if you stack them closely. WM can only hit 3 targets, just like what skill description says, regardless of whether you are standing still or moving. In fact, I believe there is a maximum target limitation for any skill (e.g. Fireball included) in the game, despite what skill description may say.

Can anyone verify this for a fact? Thanks :)

[Raxin]

This is excellent and well informed gj. Sometime create time skill cycles and see what set.has.more wasted time none of my skilld stay avail.for more than a sec i am.pure str.all mighty gear and never run outta mana rarely do 2 timers become avail together with exception of cs and wind which i do in order anyway

[Handsome2]

Best thing to test would be use only one skill (Windmill Or Skyor whatever) to complete a certain level and note the time.Make sure to keep other factors neglegible such as pets(Because they kill too).

[sirtibby]

I respecced last night. Took out smash and put in windmill. I want smash back, I think. Smash is more spammable and it doesn't shut down all other skills for a couple seconds. Like if I'm at boss and need to interrupt with chest splitter but I can't due to windmill shutting down other skills. With smash I can tap smash (and get a chance at stun) then chest splitter immediately. Not so with windmill. Once you windmill you can't do anything else for a moment.

[*Zero*]

Dps = Skyward Smash
Tanking = Windmill

This is totally wrong. It's why there are so many fail tanks atm.
Windmill is not a tanking skill. There is no upgrade that even helps tanking. If you want a REAL tanking skill choose Chest Splitter. It's a aoe attack also that slashes mobs in front of you. It hits more targets than windmill. It taunts which is a plus, increased crit another plus and last but not least the attack damage is better. Oh and not to mention the fast cooldown.

[ShadowGunX]

This is totally wrong. It's why there are so many fail tanks atm.
Windmill is not a tanking skill. There is no upgrade that even helps tanking. If you want a REAL tanking skill choose Chest Splitter. It's a aoe attack also that slashes mobs in front of you. It hits more targets than windmill. It taunts which is a plus, increased crit another plus and last but not least the attack damage is better. Oh and not to mention the fast cooldown.

i agree with zero. CS is an initial skill that every warrior should hav as it pulls aggro every 3sec nd useful at bosses greatly.

[Kenoon]

This is totally wrong. It's why there are so many fail tanks atm.
Windmill is not a tanking skill. There is no upgrade that even helps tanking. If you want a REAL tanking skill choose Chest Splitter. It's a aoe attack also that slashes mobs in front of you. It hits more targets than windmill. It taunts which is a plus, increased crit another plus and last but not least the attack damage is better. Oh and not to mention the fast cooldown.


I used to think the same as you but my explanations why windmill is better for tanking was due to the accumulative threat, proc hit stacking damage and mana consistency.


And due to CS high threat output, some clown warriors went all out to spam their skills with staggering blow sub tree skill added, does not stand together with tank warriors position and caused the boss windup's arc of fire to keep switching directions causing the deaths of rogue & mages.


i agree with zero. CS is an initial skill that every warrior should hav as it pulls aggro every 3sec nd useful at bosses greatly.

If DPS warriors knows about how Chest Splitter works, all the more they should stand together with the tank warriors. Why dafug they wanna run away from boss windups when they added staggering blow to their subtree which is a 100% counter skill and they won't even be taking any damage.
IF they wanna play dodgeball style like rogue class, they shouldn't even add staggering blow in the first place!

Oh yes, as tanking warrior, they should be using trollbane instead of Vorpal blades since Windmill with duration increased subtree added will proc 4 hits & thus increases the chance to proc fire DOT (dmg over time) onto the boss or creeps. 4 hits WM with 10 seconds cooldown vs 2 X SS in 8 seconds. Or do you want to count it by 8 hits WM in 20 secs vs 5 hits SS in 20 secs?

I owned lv15 agile vorpal, lv16 agile vorpal, lv16 mighty vorpal and lv16 trollbane.
Although trollbanes proc is 10% compared to vorpal's unstated % (assume it 100%), but from my usage, i observed the proccing to be very much effective with windmill and with stacked vengeful blood & pet, i saw a 285 crit dmg while using it.

Threat output & fire effect proccing on boss tanking, so which skill would be more effective?
I was busy to reply the same answer to all similar threads so i hope this answers to your doubt.
So this is totally wrong?
Are you even a tank by the way? lol

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?78475-Warrior-Tanking-123-with-explanations

[Crystalite]

To be fair, I think Kenoon was merely stating his personal opinion on the skyward smash vs windmill issue, which I feel is fairly contentious with peeps from both camps touting their own choice as the best. I provided some simple math calculations, but I shall leave it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions, based on their personal experience.

As such, I don't think it is fair to bring in chest splitter and compare it with windmill. I believe by now most warriors who bother to read the forums agree that chest splitter is a good staple skill, along with at least one other dps skill. Whether it is SS, WM or axe, it is up to them.

I would like to point out though, the possibility of perhaps another popular misconception:
Chest splitter does not appear to be a 'TAUNT' skill. I define a 'taunt' as any skill that grants the user a 100% chance to force the target to immediately turn his attention on the user. Currently, I believe only horn of renew, juggernaut(with appropriate upgrades for both) and axe throw can be considered a taunt, in that once used, it immediately forces the target to turn on the user, regardless of how short or long the duration which target is focused on user, or how much dmg another player(s) has dealt to target beforehand.

Chest splitter, in my experience, does not always force the target to turn on me. However, I can accept that it 'has a threat modifier', or 'a very high threat modifier' to the skill based on my personal experience but without any empirical evidence or announcement from devs, I would prefer to be skeptical and avoid even labeling it as such.

By empirical evidence, I refer to a test of similar nature as follows:
Basic assumption: first player to agro a mob gains a certain amount of 'initial threat'
Player A goes in, agroes boss and does not hit at all.
Player B deals normal attack of e.g. 101 dmg.
Player C uses chest splitter for 100dmg or below, and yet gets the agro from boss. (meaning boss is now focused on player C)
Note: this is not proof of a taunt, but merely evidence that chest splitter has a threat modifier since he dealt less dmg than player B, yet gets agro.

Proof for a taunt:
Player A has been attacking boss for awhile, e.g. 20sec.
Player B comes in and uses one of the following skills once and does nothing else: horn of renew, juggernaut (appropriate upgrades), axe throw, chest splitter
If boss now turns his attention on player B, it is then proven that the skill just used is a taunt, as player B clearly has had no time to deal more dmg than player A, yet gets the agro.

Conclusion: It is my personal experience that chest splitter alone will not draw the agro of the boss in this situation. Hence it should not be labeled as a 'taunt', but a skill with 'threat modifier'.

Can anyone verify this for a fact pls? Thanks! :)

[ShadowGunX]

Hehe thx. =P

But oooh, the idea that WM can hit all mobs (or more than 3) while moving is a misconception. The way to verify this is by entering tombs solo (try tombs 2 if no party. Less peeps farming) and luring as many mobs as possible into an alcove. When you use WM and start moving around, you will see that it doesnt hit all mobs, but still only 3 per proc, for a total of 4 procs x 3 mobs per proc.
There are 2 methods for verifying this:
1) This is seen via the hp bars of mobs you hit. Very few hp bars seen, meaning you hit only so many targets each. Likewise, this applies to say a mage's fireball. Even though the description says fireball can bit all targets near you, this is in fact not the case. Again, once you test it out yourself, you will know what I mean. :)
2) A second method of double-checking this is that once you know how much dmg your WM(or any skill in question) does per hit on a mob, as you clear the entire group of mobs, you realize there are many mobs that remain undamaged by yout previous casts of WM, as they are all at full hp. E.g. If your WM or fireball had been able to damage ALL mobs, you will only need another hit to finish them off. But you can see they are at full hp.

The same goes for skyward smash. Contrary to what most people may think, even if you stack 10-20 mobs as close as possible, it appears you can only hit a few of them each time, roughly 4-5.

Conclusion: Damage calculation for SM can only hit a few mobs (maybe around 5 or thereabouts) even if you stack them closely. WM can only hit 3 targets, just like what skill description says, regardless of whether you are standing still or moving. In fact, I believe there is a maximum target limitation for any skill (e.g. Fireball included) in the game, despite what skill description may say.

Can anyone verify this for a fact? Thanks :)

well i would like to verify u that WM although initial hit is upto 3mobs per whirl bt it hits mobs alternately.
For e.g :- Lets assume 6mobs (A, B, C, D ,E ,F) nd a player X.
6mobs surrounds X nd X casts WM.
So nw for d 1st whirl it hits 3mobs A B nd C.
again wen it whirls for 2nd time it hits nw another mobs D E nd F. so again in 3rd whirl it will hit any 3 from A B C D E nd F.
So X can hit all 6 mobs from stationary position (2whirls) . Same concept regarding 6+ mobs (12around).
So nw lets assume X is in middle of large groups of mobs in hauntlet. nd he cast WM h moves around d large mobs. So it is obvious that it will hit almost all enemy in d group. nd So its nt a MISCONCEPTION. it may nt hit all. bt it hits nearly 12-14 enemies. (nt killing m talking about hitting). So i can conclude det with one WM cast one can kill faster then 2-3 SM cast. WM per whirl hits 106 to 3mobs nd it whirls for 8times. bt although SM hit 120 bt it hit once. So i prefer WM. nd so WM is a DPS skill

[Kenoon]

To be fair, I think Kenoon was merely stating his personal opinion on the skyward smash vs windmill issue, which I feel is fairly contentious with peeps from both camps touting their own choice as the best. I provided some simple math calculations, but I shall leave it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions, based on their personal experience. Build your toon the way you want to play, so long as you are prepared to live with whatever consequences is what I believe in.

As such, I don't think it is fair to bring in chest splitter and compare it with windmill. I believe by now most warriors who bother to read the forums agree that chest splitter is a good staple skill, along with at least one other dps skill. Whether it is SS, WM or axe, it is up to them.

I would like to point out though, the possibility of perhaps another popular misconception:
Chest splitter does not appear to be a 'TAUNT' skill. I define a 'taunt' as any skill that grants the user a 100% chance to force the target to turn his attention on the user. Currently, I believe only horn of renew, juggernaut(with appropriate upgrades for both) and axe throw can be considered a taunt, in that once used, it immediately forces the target to turn on the user, regardless of how short or long the duration.

Chest splitter, in my experience, does not always force the target to turn on me. However, I can accept that it 'has a threat modifier', or 'a very high threat modifier' to the skill based on my personal experience but without any empirical evidence or announcement from devs, I would prefer to be skeptical and avoid even labeling it as such.

By empirical evidence, I refer to a test of similar nature as follows:
Basic assumption: first player to agro a mob gains a certain amount of 'initial agro'
Player A agroes boss anddoes not hit at all.
Player B deals normal attack of e.g. 101 dmg.
Player C uses chest splitter for 100dmg or below, and yet gets the agro from boss. (meaning boss is now focused on player C)
Note: this is not proof of a taunt, but merely evidence that chest splitter has a threat modifier since he dealt less dmg than player B, yet gets agro.

Proof for a taunt:
Player A has been attacking boss for awhile, e.g. 20sec.
Player B comes in and uses one of the following skills once and does nothing else: horn of renew, juggernaut (appropriate upgrades), axe throw, chest splitter
If boss now turns his attention on player B, it is then proven that the skill used is a taunt, as player clearly has had no time to deal more dmg than player A, yet gets the agro.
It is my personal experience that chest splitter alone will not draw the agro of the boss in this situation.

Can anyone verify this for a fact pls? Thanks! :)

What you said is very true.
I had went juggernaut, hor, windmill and vengeful blood yesterday.
My friend used chest splitter, windmill, hor, vengeful blood. (which is my current setup)
I totally lose out in taunting just because of chest splitter with staggering blow even though i used windmill + hor + charged vengeful blood + ribbit active skill + juggernaut (which some claims 4 times the taunt effect of HOR LOL. I hereby confirm its false -.-)

After a series of test, the threat output with CS is extremely high but it isn't a taunt skill.
There were several runs i done with korean players.
Both of us were heavily taunting against one another to see who's the ultimate tanker.
Eventually the winner goes to the one who last used a taunt skill or accumulated taunt counters to be so great that further taunts are render useless.

There is one particular guildless warrior who caught my attention.
His damage on screen is 99.9. He basically spams all dps skills on Jarl and my taunting skills were beaten by him handsdown.

[ShadowGunX]

To be fair, I think Kenoon was merely stating his personal opinion on the skyward smash vs windmill issue, which I feel is fairly contentious with peeps from both camps touting their own choice as the best. I provided some simple math calculations, but I shall leave it up to the individual to draw their own conclusions, based on their personal experience. Build your toon the way you want to play, so long as you are prepared to live with whatever consequences is what I believe in.

As such, I don't think it is fair to bring in chest splitter and compare it with windmill. I believe by now most warriors who bother to read the forums agree that chest splitter is a good staple skill, along with at least one other dps skill. Whether it is SS, WM or axe, it is up to them.

I would like to point out though, the possibility of perhaps another popular misconception:
Chest splitter does not appear to be a 'TAUNT' skill. I define a 'taunt' as any skill that grants the user a 100% chance to force the target to turn his attention on the user. Currently, I believe only horn of renew, juggernaut(with appropriate upgrades for both) and axe throw can be considered a taunt, in that once used, it immediately forces the target to turn on the user, regardless of how short or long the duration.

Chest splitter, in my experience, does not always force the target to turn on me. However, I can accept that it 'has a threat modifier', or 'a very high threat modifier' to the skill based on my personal experience but without any empirical evidence or announcement from devs, I would prefer to be skeptical and avoid even labeling it as such.

By empirical evidence, I refer to a test of similar nature as follows:
Basic assumption: first player to agro a mob gains a certain amount of 'initial agro'
Player A agroes boss anddoes not hit at all.
Player B deals normal attack of e.g. 101 dmg.
Player C uses chest splitter for 100dmg or below, and yet gets the agro from boss. (meaning boss is now focused on player C)
Note: this is not proof of a taunt, but merely evidence that chest splitter has a threat modifier since he dealt less dmg than player B, yet gets agro.

Proof for a taunt:
Player A has been attacking boss for awhile, e.g. 20sec.
Player B comes in and uses one of the following skills once and does nothing else: horn of renew, juggernaut (appropriate upgrades), a ixe throw, chest splitter
If boss now turns his attention on player B, it is then proven that the skill used is a taunt, as player clearly has had no time to deal more dmg than player A, yet gets the agro.
It is my personal experience that chest splitter alone will not draw the agro of the boss in this situation.

Can anyone verify this for a fact pls? Thanks! :)

well although it doesnt taunt like HoR or jug or axe bt it atleast pulls aggro nd also it shows "!" above enemy head. CS also has very short CD. whereas other 3has long CD. so CS is initial taunt that every war should hav to maintain threat aggro.

[ShadowGunX]

u can basically pull aggro if u hav almost around 100 base dmg

[Crystalite]

well i would like to verify u that WM although initial hit is upto 3mobs per whirl bt it hits mobs alternately.
For e.g :- Lets assume 6mobs (A, B, C, D ,E ,F) nd a player X.
6mobs surrounds X nd X casts WM.
So nw for d 1st whirl it hits 3mobs A B nd C.
again wen it whirls for 2nd time it hits nw another mobs D E nd F. so again in 3rd whirl it will hit any 3 from A B C D E nd F.
So X can hit all 6 mobs from stationary position (2whirls) . Same concept regarding 6+ mobs (12around).
So nw lets assume X is in middle of large groups of mobs in hauntlet. nd he cast WM h moves around d large mobs. So it is obvious that it will hit almost all enemy in d group. nd So its nt a MISCONCEPTION. it may nt hit all. bt it hits nearly 12-14 enemies. (nt killing m talking about hitting). So i can conclude det with one WM cast one can kill faster then 2-3 SM cast. WM per whirl hits 106 to 3mobs nd it whirls for 8times. bt although SM hit 120 bt it hit once. So i prefer WM. nd so WM is a DPS skill

Ooh ok, perhaps it is a matter of choice of words that caused confusion. So long as we agree that windmill per cast has 4 procs, each proc can hit up to 3 targets I am good. :) A total of 12 targets max can be hit with each cast of windmill.

For skyward smash however, it apparently can hit up to 5 targets each time. So for aoe purposes, based on my calculations, it appears that over time(e.g. In a 20sec interval) SM can cause a total of more dmg, given there are enough targets around. Refer to earlier calculations for details. Let me know what you think.

But I admit that is purely based on calculations. Whether there are enough mobs around to last 20sec, or if they are stacked nicely together, is another matter. Ultimately the choice is left to the individual and what feels 'most fun' to the player. The calculations is just a guide.

[Delirium]

All I know is this:

With 90 DPS (105dps with vengeful), using HoR, SS, and CS, I pull aggro 100% of the time unless I'm running with one of the top10 rogues. I can't hold aggro with them, but nobody can.. haha.

[Crystalite]

well although it doesnt taunt like HoR or jug or axe bt it atleast pulls aggro nd also it shows "!" above enemy head. CS also has very short CD. whereas other 3has long CD. so CS is initial taunt that every war should hav to maintain threat aggro.

Yeah totally agree. Chest splitter is a must have skill. =D

[Crystalite]

Drools at you uber tanks with 90DPSand above... Me gotta work harder. Rawr! T_T

[ShadowGunX]

lol i hav 72 bse dmg bt 205% bonus dmg nd yet i get aggro coz i hav CS nd HoR lol

[Kenoon]

CS + HOR + AT > 100 dps

[Kenoon]

All I know is this:

With 90 DPS (105dps with vengeful), using HoR, SS, and CS, I pull aggro 100% of the time unless I'm running with one of the top10 rogues. I can't hold aggro with them, but nobody can.. haha.


Btw rogue weapons are bugged. Lifethief series.
Basically they normal attack hits around 200+ per hit.
They just need to hit Jarl few hits and you will lose aggro against them no matter what unless they die lol.

[ShadowGunX]

Btw rogue weapons are bugged. Lifethief series.
Basically they normal attack hits around 200+ per hit.
They just need to hit Jarl few hits and you will lose aggro against them no matter what unless they die lol.

lol i hope d bows that will get after update wont pull aggro

[Kenoon]

Lol mage with rifle looks cute

[*Zero*]

Last night we let a tank try to hold aggro on elite stabb using Skyward Smash, windmill, vengeful blood and horn of renew. Bad news he couldn't hold aggro with 2 rogues. I quickly got aggro and party went smooth. I'm running Chest Splitter, Axe throw, Vengeful Blood and Juggernaut. I'm fully geared with 96 damage. I can hold aggro with any top rogue (Amaterasu) will verify.

[*Zero*]

CS + HOR + AT > 100 dps

Horn of Renew is not needed either. Juggernaut and Vengeful Blood will heal you not to mention they increased str and crit and boost too damage vengeful does. Then juggernaut will heal you, taunts buffs HP and ignores 20% of damage. So in closing Juggernaut and Vengeful Blood are the most important warrior skills.

[Astrocat]

Skyward works once every 3 tries, for me. I find Windmill pretty beast when it's updated to 6.

[*Zero*]

I used to think the same as you but my explanations why windmill is better for tanking was due to the accumulative threat, proc hit stacking damage and mana consistency.


And due to CS high threat output, some clown warriors went all out to spam their skills with staggering blow sub tree skill added, does not stand together with tank warriors position and caused the boss windup's arc of fire to keep switching directions causing the deaths of rogue & mages.



If DPS warriors knows about how Chest Splitter works, all the more they should stand together with the tank warriors. Why dafug they wanna run away from boss windups when they added staggering blow to their subtree which is a 100% counter skill and they won't even be taking any damage.
IF they wanna play dodgeball style like rogue class, they shouldn't even add staggering blow in the first place!

Oh yes, as tanking warrior, they should be using trollbane instead of Vorpal blades since Windmill with duration increased subtree added will proc 4 hits & thus increases the chance to proc fire DOT (dmg over time) onto the boss or creeps. 4 hits WM with 10 seconds cooldown vs 2 X SS in 8 seconds. Or do you want to count it by 8 hits WM in 20 secs vs 5 hits SS in 20 secs?

I owned lv15 agile vorpal, lv16 agile vorpal, lv16 mighty vorpal and lv16 trollbane.
Although trollbanes proc is 10% compared to vorpal's unstated % (assume it 100%), but from my usage, i observed the proccing to be very much effective with windmill and with stacked vengeful blood & pet, i saw a 285 crit dmg while using it.

Threat output & fire effect proccing on boss tanking, so which skill would be more effective?
I was busy to reply the same answer to all similar threads so i hope this answers to your doubt.
So this is totally wrong?
Are you even a tank by the way? lol

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?78475-Warrior-Tanking-123-with-explanations

i guess your referring to me. Yes I am a tank. And no I do not use trollbane. The dot is worth giving up 100%crit, last time I checked it only did like 1 damage every tick in elite maps. All I can do is add you in game and let ya join are elite runs and see how well you hold aggro. But from actual tests in game windmill is not worth the waste of a skill point.

With passives coming maybe builds will change but ATM in any elite bael, troll or mother runs windmill is not helping the party.

[Delirium]

Last night we let a tank try to hold aggro on elite stabb using Skyward Smash, windmill, vengeful blood and horn of renew. Bad news he couldn't hold aggro with 2 rogues. I quickly got aggro and party went smooth. I'm running Chest Splitter, Axe throw, Vengeful Blood and Juggernaut. I'm fully geared with 96 damage. I can hold aggro with any top rogue (Amaterasu) will verify.

I'll have to give that build a try if you can actually hold aggro with a top10 rogue. I really find that hard to believe if they are using lifethief.. one of my guildies is a top5 rogue and he pulls aggro very fast if he goes all out, but he literally hasn't met a warrior yet that can hold aggro against his full barrage.

[ShadowGunX]

axe throw with jug spamming CS constantly is d real taunt det NO ONE ever can pull :O

[Crystalite]

Last night we let a tank try to hold aggro on elite stabb using Skyward Smash, windmill, vengeful blood and horn of renew. Bad news he couldn't hold aggro with 2 rogues. I quickly got aggro and party went smooth. I'm running Chest Splitter, Axe throw, Vengeful Blood and Juggernaut. I'm fully geared with 96 damage. I can hold aggro with any top rogue (Amaterasu) will verify.

Sounds awesome!
May I ask, since this party setup has no mage to heal mana and decurse (which will increase dmg for dps classes and put a warrior with less dps skills like your build at a disadvantage), were the rogues in your party chugging mana pots consistently? Don't mean to question the integrity of these esteemed rogues, but psychologically humans may not mind paying tens of thousands for cosmetic surgery, but grimace and think twice for common cold medicine. Same for top end gear versus mana pots.

Another consideration is how long was the battle for elite stabb? He has less hp than jarl or baal. My theory is that the longer the boss fight, the more it benefits dps classes, allowing the gap between them and tanks to widen. This is of special significance because you are using juggernaut as well. I notice you mentioned in the other thread that juggernaut has 25sec duration, 45 sec cd. May I double check with you again regarding this? The last time I checked, the duration was 15sec. This means for the fight with elite stabb, which could not have lasted very long, much of the fight was spent with it on cooldown. This also calls to mind the effect of what exactly the juggernaut taunt does - i.e. is the 30sec downtime worth skipping another skill?

In any case, I'm sure it was no mean feat holding your agro against two accomplished rogues. Well done! This brings hope to the warrior class heh. :)

[Delirium]

I'm trying a variant of that right now.. axe, cs, vengeful, and HoR instead of Jugg. I feel like the cooldown for jugg might be too long since it's the only "real" taunt skill you'd have in the build. I do love the damage reduction in jugg, but a 45 second cooldown with only 15 seconds of active time is pretty steep for your ONLY real taunt skill.

It seems to be working well so far.. haven't lost aggro yet in any of the PUG jarl runs I've done, but I haven't tested it with a top rogue.

[Delirium]

Scratch that.. I just lost aggro to a slightly lower DPS warrior that was using ss, cs, axe throw.. he was pumping mana pots though.

[Nutstomper]

What you said is very true.
I had went juggernaut, hor, windmill and vengeful blood yesterday.
My friend used chest splitter, windmill, hor, vengeful blood. (which is my current setup)
I totally lose out in taunting just because of chest splitter with staggering blow even though i used windmill + hor + charged vengeful blood + ribbit active skill + juggernaut (which some claims 4 times the taunt effect of HOR LOL. I hereby confirm its false -.-)

After a series of test, the threat output with CS is extremely high but it isn't a taunt skill.
There were several runs i done with korean players.
Both of us were heavily taunting against one another to see who's the ultimate tanker.
Eventually the winner goes to the one who last used a taunt skill or accumulated taunt counters to be so great that further taunts are render useless.

There is one particular guildless warrior who caught my attention.
His damage on screen is 99.9. He basically spams all dps skills on Jarl and my taunting skills were beaten by him handsdown.


Hey Kenoon I am pretty sure you are referring to me, if not I apologize. My IGN is Nutstomper and indeed was guildless and have the stats and skills you reference. I've seen you run Jarl many times and have positioned myself at an angle to most tanks to see what kind of threat output I can muster with a non "tank" build.

I can attest that CS is NOT a taunt skill. It does stack threat but will not get a mob to turn immediately unless you are at the threat thresh hold. As for "spamming" skills, I can assure you there is a rhyme and reason to the order in which I execute skills. Usually the only times I lose aggro is against a Warrior who is using Juggernaut, and even then only for half the duration of a dps cycle.

Anyhow, just stopping by to say hello. And to add my two cents:
-CS+WW is generally enough to hold aggro even against lifethief rogues with NO OTHER taunts if your two other skills are well chosen and executed. This held true for me personally even at 88-93 base damage. CS also seems to me to add more threat when it actually cancels an attack.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, although keep in mind that I own half the leaderboards now :)

[Crystalite]

Thanks for sharing your experience! It resonates with my theory that the warrior tank cannot simply rely on taunts (horn renew, juggernaut and axe throw) to hold agro, or at least not easily and without a good set of dps gear as well. Seeing as I never owned the best sword myself, I could never test it this way myself. We need more warriors to share their experience as well and we can learn together :)

I suppose as Kenoon mentioned, there might possibly be a hidden threat modifier attached to timely and judicious use of CS to cancel windups. Makes it more exciting and requires more skill than simply button-mashing I guess.

Sidetrack a little, but one thing I'm worried about is that after the next update, warriors might find it even harder to keep agro, unless existing game mechanics are tweaked. Assuming 1hand+shield heralds stronger bossess that hit very hard, we might be trading too much of our dps away for survivability. And since our job is to maintain agro... What's the point of staying alive only to lose agro? Hopefully my fears are unfounded. :(

[Kenoon]

Hey Kenoon I am pretty sure you are referring to me, if not I apologize. My IGN is Nutstomper and indeed was guildless and have the stats and skills you reference. I've seen you run Jarl many times and have positioned myself at an angle to most tanks to see what kind of threat output I can muster with a non "tank" build.

I can attest that CS is NOT a taunt skill. It does stack threat but will not get a mob to turn immediately unless you are at the threat thresh hold. As for "spamming" skills, I can assure you there is a rhyme and reason to the order in which I execute skills. Usually the only times I lose aggro is against a Warrior who is using Juggernaut, and even then only for half the duration of a dps cycle.

Anyhow, just stopping by to say hello. And to add my two cents:
-CS+WW is generally enough to hold aggro even against lifethief rogues with NO OTHER taunts if your two other skills are well chosen and executed. This held true for me personally even at 88-93 base damage. CS also seems to me to add more threat when it actually cancels an attack.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, although keep in mind that I own half the leaderboards now :)


Hi there bud!
Yes, under my most recent update, CS builds up threat for tankers.
As observed too, an effective CS that cancels a boss's skill builds up much more threat than a CS that was executed just for the sake of Skill rotation.

I believe many other tankers would take notice of this characteristic when someone uses a charged HoR to taunt Jarl but was later lose out the taunt immediately after another warrior cancels Jarl's windup. :)

Btw that warrior i saw his IGN is Tempus.
Anyway, as we get all our gears up fully with vengeful blood, hitting beyond 100 damage on screen is possible for Warrior at Lv16.

Would be excited to play around with respec soon for the upcoming patch!

[ShadowGunX]

Hey Kenoon I am pretty sure you are referring to me, if not I apologize. My IGN is Nutstomper and indeed was guildless and have the stats and skills you reference. I've seen you run Jarl many times and have positioned myself at an angle to most tanks to see what kind of threat output I can muster with a non "tank" build.

I can attest that CS is NOT a taunt skill. It does stack threat but will not get a mob to turn immediately unless you are at the threat thresh hold. As for "spamming" skills, I can assure you there is a rhyme and reason to the order in which I execute skills. Usually the only times I lose aggro is against a Warrior who is using Juggernaut, and even then only for half the duration of a dps cycle.

Anyhow, just stopping by to say hello. And to add my two cents:
-CS+WW is generally enough to hold aggro even against lifethief rogues with NO OTHER taunts if your two other skills are well chosen and executed. This held true for me personally even at 88-93 base damage. CS also seems to me to add more threat when it actually cancels an attack.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, although keep in mind that I own half the leaderboards now :)

ur build resembles me exactly.
CS; WM ; HoR nd Venge Blood. only my base dmg is 70 nd bonus dmg% is 202%.
well CS only tends to keep aggro if nd only if u use charged CS otherwise. other warriors or rogue pull aggro from u.

[Nutstomper]

ur build resembles me exactly.
CS; WM ; HoR nd Venge Blood. only my base dmg is 70 nd bonus dmg% is 202%.
well CS only tends to keep aggro if nd only if u use charged CS otherwise. other warriors or rogue pull aggro from u.

Our build are not the same. I do not include HOR in my build at all, Just Veng, SS, WW, CS. As I stated earlier Jugg Warriors are able to pull aggro for a very very brief period of time. Rogues, generally speaking, do not pose a problem.

It may be that your base damage is much too low.

[Delirium]

I'm back to using SS, CS, Venge, and HoR. I have 90 base damage with one of the junkie vorpals.

I tried a bunch of other builds, but none of them did that well for me.. the combination of good DPS with vengeful up + the taunt from HoR work great in my case. I always keep aggro unless I'm up against a lifethief rogue that gets a good string of criticals, but in that case, they should know to ease up a bit because no tank can hold aggro with that DPS. I use it on my rogue and there is no tank I've come across that can hold aggro with my full barrage.

I haven't tried your build, nut, using WM instead of HoR. I might give it a try, but I haven't had issues with aggro and it's nice never having to use any potions at all. That build would be the only one that I can think of which MIGHT pull aggro from me. We should test it out.

[ShadowGunX]

i really hate the aggro pulling by rogues issue. i hope nxt update rogues nd mage shouldnt pull aggro O:-)

[ShadowGunX]

Our build are not the same. I do not include HOR in my build at all, Just Veng, SS, WW, CS. As I stated earlier Jugg Warriors are able to pull aggro for a very very brief period of time. Rogues, generally speaking, do not pose a problem.

It may be that your base damage is much too low.

base dmg is useless for warrior as it has mch delay in swinging weapon. as HoR healing nd other skills r bonus dmg% dependent i.e. more bonus dmg% the greater will b d healing of HoR so i focus only on bonus dmg %. well jug taunts 2time every 45sec but HoR can also taunt 2times every 30sec (15sec CD*2 times skill use) as well as heal other party members. so i prefer HoR than jug :-). anyway we hav different minds so different views so different playstyle ;-).

[Kenoon]

A team of serious party for stronger bosses in future would definitely prefer a tanking warrior with HoR.
Juggernaut is just too self centered skill with long cooldown. As mentioned in other post, i personally won't consider Juggernaut unless server reduces the cooldown for it.

[*Zero*]

I've also found another nice tanking build. Skyward Smash,Chest splitter,vengeful blood and horn of renew.

[Tilax]

Sounds nice :)

[ShadowGunX]

I've also found another nice tanking build. Skyward Smash,Chest splitter,vengeful blood and horn of renew.

yup this indeed a bst dps build as that can keep avg aggro. i use the same build for my alt dps warrior. i recently discovered that only charged CS pulls aggro. correct me if m wrong :-)

[Delirium]

I never charge CS.. the only things I charge are HoR and Vengeful Blood.

I was running Jarl earlier and came across the first warrior ever to pull aggro from me.. he had my exact same DPS (90) but his build was a little different. He was using Chest Splitter, Skyward Smash, Windmill, and Vengeful Blood--that's right, no HoR or Juggernaut. He was able to hold aggro from me for most of the fight. I would take it occasionally when I used all my skills at the same time, but he was able to get it back quickly.

His name is Durogs and he was kind enough to share his build with me! So thanks, Durogs. =)

[Raxin]

I took and monopolized aggro with you elfstone. Windmill FTW that is all :-)

[ShadowGunX]

yh raxin, windmill is great in elite maps nd hauntlet. nothing can beat it. WM FTW :-)

[Kenoon]

Basically i think SS is 1 hit skill whereas for Windmill i can move around freely to nearby targets to make it more effective after i cleared those around me.

[ShadowGunX]

yh kenoon; same technique i use. thats y i like WM over SS