Blinded by dps

[Rushorgtfo]

80% of your combat time pve or pvp you will be using skills not spamming auto attack. Some people may think dps is what's best especially for rogues. Well it's not. Higher damadge slow or fast speed the higher the damadge the higher your skill damadge. I have a nearly 350 aimed shot when I check my skills. My damadge is at 150% I use a bow lv 21 from the plat store Now lets compare this bow to some of the current items in cs. I would also like to point out the unappreciation of bane daggers compare it to all the other daggers heart seekers are obviously out of the picture cause they plane suck. Low damadge bad proc. here bane daggers can lower an opponents dodge and hit% by 15%!! New lv 21 demon daggers of brutality add about 40 more HP ? But the proc also sucks. IMO bane daggers take the win out of these 3. Also if anyone finds a demon bow lv21 I offer 2 mil. :)


http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r524/joestrums/F773F015-A1AB-4D3C-B99C-3546282F1807-3258-0000037E422151C0.jpg


http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r524/joestrums/5743F48C-4D42-46D9-AD52-20562C4C3D34-3258-0000037E481A2845.jpg



http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r524/joestrums/BB958971-C9E7-46A0-8936-6EA54F31D2FF-3258-0000037E4E4EA786.jpg

[Rushorgtfo]

Bump, this needs to be scene.

[drgrimmy]

Love the title. So true! I am actually suprised that it has take so long for there to be debate about base damage, dps and skill damage of weapons. I guess if some people still haven't figured it out in pl it will probably take a long time for most people in al to figure it out. For now I am just happy that some of the more effective weapons are cheaper as they don't look impressive on the stats page :)

[Rushorgtfo]

With zero effect of brutality plat bought bow lv 21

http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r524/joestrums/66C4A365-600C-447F-A53E-C8DD59548AF4-3593-000003BEEE6537EB.jpg

[azefekie]

The secrets out! i actually have people coment to me that my dps sucks (156) for a level 21, though i don't have my full set. I laugh cause i'm criting at 800+ while they expect that their wand damage means more than skill damage. They are criting max what 400-500? lawl

rush i thought you weren't telling people lol

[Rushorgtfo]

The secrets out! i actually have people coment to me that my dps sucks (156) for a level 21, though i don't have my full set. I laugh cause i'm criting at 800+ while they expect that their wand damage means more than skill damage. They are criting max what 400-500? lawl

rush i thought you weren't telling people lol



Doesn't matter when Pvp is out I want a challenge. It'd be like a elite Phoenix bow vs mount fang dagger had I not spoken out

[Royce]

The secrets out! i actually have people coment to me that my dps sucks (156) for a level 21, though i don't have my full set. I laugh cause i'm criting at 800+ while they expect that their wand damage means more than skill damage. They are criting max what 400-500? lawl

rush i thought you weren't telling people lol

I litterally have level 21s scoffing at my gun and leaving the game. Then they miss out on me blowing the crap out of everything ;) Though the best of the best flamestrikes does appear to be slightly better in terms of both damage and DPS, for 5% the cost, the gun does alright ;)

[Iaceden]

What gun are u using Royce?

[Rushorgtfo]

I litterally have level 21s scoffing at my gun and leaving the game. Then they miss out on me blowing the crap out of everything ;) Though the best of the best flamestrikes does appear to be slightly better in terms of both damage and DPS, for 5% the cost, the gun does alright ;)




Lv 21 blue blaster of brutality > any rod or wand or staff


Like I said dps doesn't matter since you can't auto attack so you'll be pressing skills more than pressing your weapon attack even the slightest damadge will win because it adds to skill damadge.

[Royce]

What gun are u using Royce?

The one from the plat pack. The other pink is slightly better, but not enough to be worth the cost when I'm still farming new armor, etc. It was a huge skill damage upgrade from my level 16 flamestrike, and seems to be better than all but the same level clever flamestrike of assault in terms of damage, again not worth the cost to me at this time. My biggest problem right now is aggro. Most runs the boss focuses on me 90% of the time. Which leads me to the gun's other big advantage. I can still fire it while I'm avoiding the boss and not miss like a staff. The range is nice too.



Lv 21 blue blaster of brutality > any rod or wand or staff
Interesting, I'll have to check that out.

[Rushorgtfo]

Think of it this way your pressing weapon attack once every 4 skills you press? Or at least for me. The damadge difference between skills can be HUGE when in Pvp or fighting bosses. Adding the small damadge changes between a dps class and damadge class. Dps class might hit 2-3 weapon attacks in but that won't add up to the skill damadge whatsoever.

[Energizeric]

I have to comment that for my mage the dps does indeed matter. First, I only have 2 attack skills, Fireball and Lightning. I have Gale Force which is more of a defensive thing I save for certain situations, and then I have Heal.

You compared the DPS/Dmg issue to PL where we got 12 skills instead of 4. On my warrior in PL I am indeed always spamming my skills during battle, because by the time I'm done with all 12 it's time to start over at the first one. However, here in AL when I'm done with my Fireball and Lightning, I have 2-3 seconds of waiting until they cool down. During that time I spam the attack button. So for my build DPS will matter. (BTW, I'm assuming DPS, or weapon speed, controls how fast my main attack button cools down).


Edit:

However that issue stated above about not having to aim the gun does sound very useful. I too often end up with aggro from the boss. So I find myself kiting him and running back and forth. I find during those situations the attack button is pretty useless and I just run until my skills cool down. Maybe the gun would help with that situation.

[Rushorgtfo]

I have to comment that for my mage the dps does indeed matter. First, I only have 2 attack skills, Fireball and Lightning. I have Gale Force which is more of a defensive thing I save for certain situations, and then I have Heal.

You compared the DPS/Dmg issue to PL where we got 12 skills instead of 4. On my warrior in PL I am indeed always spamming my skills during battle, because by the time I'm done with all 12 it's time to start over at the first one. However, here in AL when I'm done with my Fireball and Lightning, I have 2-3 seconds of waiting until they cool down. During that time I spam the attack button. So for my build DPS will matter. (BTW, I'm assuming DPS, or weapon speed, controls how fast my main attack button cools down).


Yes maybe in your situation dps will be better for you. But like I said your skills would be 150% more effective specializing in damadge.

[Energizeric]

Yes maybe in your situation dps will be better for you. But like I said your skills would be 150% more effective specializing in damadge.

Do you know which stat or stats effect skill damage? Obviously DPS does NOT. But is it damage or bonus damage, or both? People in game said bonus damage, but I suspect maybe both? In fact, it must be bonus damage, because otherwise what exactly is the bonus damage stat even for?

I asked this in another thread but nobody answered.

[azefekie]

i use 4 power skills not heal. each class has it's own heal, if they wanna heal they should use theirs or pots. skill dmg pwns, try it out if you don't like it go back to what you have.
I have to comment that for my mage the dps does indeed matter. First, I only have 2 attack skills, Fireball and Lightning. I have Gale Force which is more of a defensive thing I save for certain situations, and then I have Heal.

You compared the DPS/Dmg issue to PL where we got 12 skills instead of 4. On my warrior in PL I am indeed always spamming my skills during battle, because by the time I'm done with all 12 it's time to start over at the first one. However, here in AL when I'm done with my Fireball and Lightning, I have 2-3 seconds of waiting until they cool down. During that time I spam the attack button. So for my build DPS will matter. (BTW, I'm assuming DPS, or weapon speed, controls how fast my main attack button cools down).


Edit:

However that issue stated above about not having to aim the gun does sound very useful. I too often end up with aggro from the boss. So I find myself kiting him and running back and forth. I find during those situations the attack button is pretty useless and I just run until my skills cool down. Maybe the gun would help with that situation.

[Rushorgtfo]

Do you know which stat or stats effect skill damage? Obviously DPS does NOT. But is it damage or bonus damage, or both? People in game said bonus damage, but I suspect maybe both? In fact, it must be bonus damage, because otherwise what exactly is the bonus damage stat even for?

I asked this in another thread but nobody answered.



No way of knowing without a Devs input because all items that add damadge add dex and all items that ad dex add damadge And bonus but my guess is both.



Either way doesn't matter all items that add the most damadge also add the most bonus damadge aka adding most dex + damadge

[Energizeric]

i use 4 power skills not heal. each class has it's own heal, if they wanna heal they should use theirs or pots. skill dmg pwns, try it out if you don't like it go back to what you have.

I actually already did. I caused serious damage and kept dying when the boss would come after me every single time. No matter how much damage I caused it would still take a minute or two to kill any elite boss, and so during that time I would keep dying. Plus I would end up spending a fortune on health pots and mana pots which made farming the elite dungeons unprofitable.

Now I got the heal skill maxed out which means not only does it heal me, but it increases my mana too, and increases both health & mana regen by considerable amounts for 10 seconds. Since the heal skill cools down in 15 seconds, it means 66% of the time I have much improved health & mana regen. Mix that with Flap Jack pet equiped, and I almost never have to use any mana pots, and only need health pots when I'm under heavy attack.

And Gale Force helps me survive situations where mobs come after me. It just pushes everyone away, knocks them down for a few seconds, and gives me a nice burst of speed to get away.

I also believe in PvP this build will be superior as you can't use pots in PvP. And Gale Force will be useful for CTF.

[azefekie]

I'm pretty sure bonus dmg isn't for your skill damage when i put a weapon on with higher dps my bonus dmg does go up but my dmg goes down. i look at my skill dmg in skill map and it goes down because my dmg went down.

don't know how to fix this lol oops

QUOTE=Energizeric;904083]Do you know which stat or stats effect skill damage? Obviously DPS does NOT. But is it damage or bonus damage, or both? People in game said bonus damage, but I suspect maybe both? In fact, it must be bonus damage, because otherwise what exactly is the bonus damage stat even for?

I asked this in another thread but nobody answered.[/QUOTE]

[Rushorgtfo]

I actually already did. I caused serious damage and kept dying when the boss would come after me every single time. No matter how much damage I caused it would still take a minute or two to kill any elite boss, and so during that time I would keep dying. Plus I would end up spending a fortune on health pots and mana pots which made farming the elite dungeons unprofitable.

Now I got the heal skill maxed out which means not only does it heal me, but it increases my mana too, and increases both health & mana regen by considerable amounts for 10 seconds. Since the heal skill cools down in 15 seconds, it means 66% of the time I have much improved health & mana regen. Mix that with Flap Jack pet equiped, and I almost never have to use any mana pots, and only need health pots when I'm under heavy attack.

And Gale Force helps me survive situations where mobs come after me. It just pushes everyone away, knocks them down for a few seconds, and gives me a nice burst of speed to get away.



No reason to play the warrior role as a sorcerer. Unless you solo all the time.


Only things maxing damadge doesn't help.
Solo'ing although I solo elite tower fine with maxing damadge as a rogue
Playing the tank role vs large mobs


Other than that ^ it helps everything else. Especially aoe skills while you have a tank in the party you clear VERY fast

[Energizeric]

No way of knowing without a Devs input because all items that add damadge add dex and all items that ad dex add damadge And bonus but my guess is both.



Either way doesn't matter all items that add the most damadge also add the most bonus damadge aka adding most dex + damadge


My theory (which is based on nothing but just some common sense) is that skill damage is based on this formula:

skill dmg = dmg x bonus dmg

And then each skill is based on a multiplier of this amount.

Just makes sense, as the words "bonus dmg" indicate it stacks on top of dmg. But I would love for a developer to confirm this.

[azefekie]

weird i don't die easy and my main is a mage also. maybe use a pet with more mana and hp? i use malison dont seem to have any problems. i use a few pots but i make it up and some in the stuff i loot.
I actually already did. I caused serious damage and kept dying when the boss would come after me every single time. No matter how much damage I caused it would still take a minute or two to kill any elite boss, and so during that time I would keep dying. Plus I would end up spending a fortune on health pots and mana pots which made farming the elite dungeons unprofitable.

Now I got the heal skill maxed out which means not only does it heal me, but it increases my mana too, and increases both health & mana regen by considerable amounts for 10 seconds. Since the heal skill cools down in 15 seconds, it means 66% of the time I have much improved health & mana regen. Mix that with Flap Jack pet equiped, and I almost never have to use any mana pots, and only need health pots when I'm under heavy attack.

And Gale Force helps me survive situations where mobs come after me. It just pushes everyone away, knocks them down for a few seconds, and gives me a nice burst of speed to get away.

I also believe in PvP this build will be superior as you can't use pots in PvP. And Gale Force will be useful for CTF.

[Energizeric]

BTW, Gale Force is indeed very useful for AoE and clearing mobs. It actually causes the same damage as Fireball. But it's not that useful for bosses.

[azefekie]

agreed, i just know my skill dmg goes with dmg. not dps or bonus dmg
My theory (which is based on nothing but just some common sense) is that skill damage is based on this formula:

skill dmg = dmg x bonus dmg

And then each skill is based on a multiplier of this amount.

Just makes sense, as the words "bonus dmg" indicate it stacks on top of dmg. But I would love for a developer to confirm this.

[azefekie]

how wouldn't it be the same on bosses if it does the same dmg...
BTW, Gale Force is indeed very useful for AoE and clearing mobs. It actually causes the same damage as Fireball. But it's not that useful for bosses.

[Royce]

Now I got the heal skill maxed out which means not only does it heal me, but it increases my mana too, and increases both health & mana regen by considerable amounts for 10 seconds. Since the heal skill cools down in 15 seconds, it means 66% of the time I have much improved health & mana regen. Mix that with Flap Jack pet equiped, and I almost never have to use any mana pots, and only need health pots when I'm under heavy attack.

The heal skill for sorcerers is really pretty bad, and you definitely shouldn't max it out, unless you're specifically aiming for a support role. That mana regen buff for instance is giving you 50 mana (5m/s for 10s) every time you use it, which is less that every 15 sec since you have to charge for mana heal. 50 mana is laughable for a sorcerer. Isn't there somewhere you could better spend a skill point than regening less than half the cost of using a skill every 17s or so?


how wouldn't it be the same on bosses if it does the same dmg...

Gale needs to be charged or aimed directly at the boss. An uncharged fireball will still fire directly at the boss. That's a big reason why fb is the better skill IMO.

[azefekie]

I use lightning,fireball, ice and time shift. found gale pretty useless for that reason ( have to aim it)
The heal skill for sorcerers is really pretty bad, and you definitely shouldn't max it out, unless you're specifically aiming for a support role. That mana regen buff for instance is giving you 50 mana (5m/s for 10s) every time you use it, which is less that every 15 sec since you have to charge for mana heal. 50 mana is laughable for a sorcerer. Isn't there somewhere you could better spend a skill point than regening less than half the cost of using a skill every 17s or so?



Gale needs to be charged or aimed directly at the boss. An uncharged fireball will still fire directly at the boss. That's a big reason why fb is the better skill IMO.

[Rushorgtfo]

Point is damadge over dps unless your a support sorcere class

[CosmoxKramer]

No way of knowing without a Devs input because all items that add damadge add dex and all items that ad dex add damadge And bonus but my guess is both.



Either way doesn't matter all items that add the most damadge also add the most bonus damadge aka adding most dex + damadge

Actually Skill damage is Your Damage * Variable = Skill Damage.
Where the Variable is different depending on the spell. Also note i say Damage not DPS.
See below (sorry i'm still just 20)

With my Coldscope of Brutality I am the following
232% Bonus damage
138.2 Damage
155.5 DPS

The Variables are as such
Fireball / Gale Force 1.35
Lightning Strike / Frostbolt / Time Shift 1.80
Lifegiver 3.60
Lightning +15% 2.07

Fireball is 166-207 or Avg damage of 186.5 / 1.35 = 138.148
Lightning Strike +15% is 254-318 or avg damage 286 / 2.07 = 138.16

With Clever Flamestrike of Force
234% Bonus Damage
129 Damage
232.3 DPS

Fireball is 155-194 or Avg damage of 174.5 / 1.35 = 129.2
Lightning strike + 15% is 237-297 or Avg damage of 267 / 2.07 = 128.98


and so on. Lightning +15% ratio is also 1.8*1.15=2.07. So anyone can take the average damage from there skills, divide by your Damage and find the Ratio. Since we are all theory rafting here anyway we know there are hidden decimals or strange rounding things that STS does so that would explain e decimal variance. also, I think each level changes the ratio for each spell, but I have tested it yet. I will at 21.

[Energizeric]

What exactly then is bonus damage? I'm thinking maybe that's the multiplier that determines your damage based on the damage stat of the weapon/ring/amulet??

For example, weapon has 70 dmg stat, your bonus damage stat is 200%, so you get 140 dmg when you equip it?


Edit: NVM, I tried this and the math doesn't work.

What exactly is "Bonus Dmg" then?

[CosmoxKramer]

Bonus damage is built into the Damage. If you take a flame strike rod, and divide DPS / Damage you get Attacks per second (Atk/s) you will see all Flamestrike rods do 1.8 atk/s, while other rods/guns do 1.1 or 1.3 atk/s. so if you take 90 Dps Flamestrike /1.8 atk/s the avg damage of a Flamestrike is 49/50 damage. So the average damage of your (weapon + damage from ring/amulet)*bonus damage = approximately your Damage. Approximate because it is within a couple points, there must be someone else there that STS isn't telling us...I'm hoping to get a response from them on this...

Edit - you have to be careful cause weapons now say 90 DPS, not damage. So you apply the damage bonus to the average damage of weapons, not the DPS. The important part is you can get the atk/s of a weapon by DPS/Damage. also. There is a difference between attacks per second and attack speed. Attack Speed = 1 / Attacks Per Second

Since Damage and DPS are spelled out specifically I'll try to update my google doc file with the Atk/s of different weapons. Etc.

[Dreuefesie]

I thought that the more damage the better, you don't stand there and dps enemies was common knowledge? haha

[Rushorgtfo]

I thought that the more damage the better, you don't stand there and dps enemies was common knowledge? haha



Damadge is better some people argue or make up formulas to make themselves not feel stupid for believing dps was the way to go.

[CosmoxKramer]

It depends on the build. Someone said, they run 4 offensive skills. If you ran just 3 with one being the long cd time shift then you spend more time spamming your regular attack and less spells casts, so higher DPS is better. With 4 offensive skills you won't have any or much time where you are waiting on skills to cool down so higher Damage is better.

also if you are just a cheap or poor player then higher DPS is your way to go because you can get decent DPS from spamming attack and using less skills, and therefore less pots

[CosmoxKramer]

The heal skill for sorcerers is really pretty bad, and you definitely shouldn't max it out, unless you're specifically aiming for a support role. That mana regen buff for instance is giving you 50 mana (5m/s for 10s) every time you use it, which is less that every 15 sec since you have to charge for mana heal. 50 mana is laughable for a sorcerer. Isn't there somewhere you could better spend a skill point than regening less than half the cost of using a skill every 17s or so?

Empower ability under Life giver gives you 9.5% mana regen, last time I calculated it (at lvl 16 before expansion). But if I recall, it is doing more than that now. Before I respecced to all Off abilities it would return about 357ish mana ( I'm at 2800), which means it is around 12.75%. But at lvl 20 life giver is 105 mana or 3.75% of 2800 mana or net about 9% mana. If u wanted to add the Recharge Mana skill, then you get around 55-58 mana over the 10 seconds which is another 2% on average recharge. Pretty week. I wish they would take a look at both of these skills. Hard to justify them.

Thanks, for the thanks on my previous post too Royce. I forgot to mention that DPS isn't a true calculation of DPS either. You need to include Crit and Crit damage. So take your DPS and multiply it by 1+ (crit%* 200% damage from crits). So if you had 200 DPS and 10% Crit, then 200*(1+(10%*200%))=240 true DPS

[ShadowGunX]

My theory (which is based on nothing but just some common sense) is that skill damage is based on this formula:

skill dmg = dmg x bonus dmg

And then each skill is based on a multiplier of this amount.

Just makes sense, as the words "bonus dmg" indicate it stacks on top of dmg. But I would love for a developer to confirm this.

yh i agree with u.
Before update as there were two weaps type:
#1: increases Str bt decreases dps &
#2: decreases Str bt increases dps.
so i thought skill is dependent mainly on bonus dmg% bt today when i equip avalenche veil of will over mighty troll ; my bonus dmg% remained same nd dps increases bt dmg waz mch lowered. bt then i saw in skill page that dmg of Cs nd Wm is also lowered.
So i can conclude that dmg nd bonus dmg% is interrelated with skill dmg.
Also using 2h weapon dmg is higher bt using sword nd shield u get whopping armour. i got +89 armour nd +10dex from avalenche.

[azefekie]

have you ever done pvp? weapon dmg means nothing. I will use a skill combo before i touch my weapon for help. you said "higher DPS is better" then you said "if you're just a cheap or poor player DPS is the way to go" lol that doesn't make sense. listen guys dps means nothing especially if you are a mage (AEO) or plan on doing pvp when it's released. The only reason you should want higher DPS is if you're a support player (warrior just for tanking, mage just for support) rouge all around is a good damage class STS did really good there IMO.

EDIT- the time i use my 4 offensive skills one has already cooled down ( light or ice ) then its easy to go back and forth. dps is just there if i'm bored.


It depends on the build. Someone said, they run 4 offensive skills. If you ran just 3 with one being the long cd time shift then you spend more time spamming your regular attack and less spells casts, so higher DPS is better. With 4 offensive skills you won't have any or much time where you are waiting on skills to cool down so higher Damage is better.

also if you are just a cheap or poor player then higher DPS is your way to go because you can get decent DPS from spamming attack and using less skills, and therefore less pots

[Aeoros]

I agree, in the majority of cases, I would take dmg over dps. However, all of the daggers you've compared have nothing on ALP. But I agree, too many people go about "stat page padding". I think it's an even bigger problem when it comes to pets. Not enough people actually look at the usefulness of pets apart from what they do to their stat page. The biggest example that comes to mind is malison. In my opinion, it's the most overated pet and I consider it 2nd tier. It does have a great passive and also gives some general survivability, but otherwise, meh.

P.S. I feel sorry for the poor soul who had to pay the tax on the 3m seekers... even more sorry for the person who bought them at 3m...

[primaeva]

Hello folks. Sorry to crash your party. But if you aren't spamming the heck out of your autoattack button in between skill cooldowns, you're obviously going to think skills make up for most of your damage.

They do not.

I'm not gonna release a full theorycraft explanation of autoattack damage here. But let's just say-- I think you need to try hitting the AA button ALL THE TIME- simultaneously if you can manage. You'll notice a difference.

[primaeva]

With regards to PvP, that is slightly more true-- DPS matters far less than skills because your target will actually be moving around and in and out of range.

But the top-tier PvPers aren't going to only be hurling skills at you. Especially given the fact that all AAs are autoaimed, you are going to be taking plenty of AA damage as well. More so if you're rooted/snared/stunned. How hard your team or you alone can burst can make or break a match, and 50 more damage per second is going to add up multiplied across a team of 5.

[Vystirch]

Rush who hired you to spam guild in al?

[Rushorgtfo]

Hello folks. Sorry to crash your party. But if you aren't spamming the heck out of your autoattack button in between skill cooldowns, you're obviously going to think skills make up for most of your damage.

They do not.

I'm not gonna release a full theorycraft explanation of autoattack damage here. But let's just say-- I think you need to try hitting the AA button ALL THE TIME- simultaneously if you can manage. You'll notice a difference.


With regards to PvP, that is slightly more true-- DPS matters far less than skills because your target will actually be moving around and in and out of range.

But the top-tier PvPers aren't going to only be hurling skills at you. Especially given the fact that all AAs are autoaimed, you are going to be taking plenty of AA damage as well. More so if you're rooted/snared/stunned. How hard your team or you alone can burst can make or break a match, and 50 more damage per second is going to add up multiplied across a team of 5.





Your so right !!!! Cause in Pvp it matters cause in Pvp u need the highest amount if damadge but In pve it's ok to have small damadge? Lmao I laugh at you and others. Please be the 50th to make a false theory if it makes you feel smarter for going 100% dps go for it.

[drgrimmy]

Not to add an additional layer of complication to this thread, but a true understanding of the
value of damage per hit versus dps is difficult to evaluate when there is not a good understanding
of how armor affects incoming damage. In pl from all accounts armor subtracts from damage.
So let's take the hypothetical situation of two builds, each with 300 dps, one with two attacks of
150 per second, and the other with one attack of 300 per second. Add a boss with 100 armor.
The first build would be doing (150-100) x 2 = 100 true damage per second. The second would
be doing 300-100 = 200 true damage per second. So the weapon with the higher damage per
hit wins out. Unfortunately armor does not seem to work like this in al (if you experiment with
running around levels naked and with armor). Until there is a clear understanding of how armor
works, the debate over damage per hit versus dps (unless u are an aoe nuke mage) will also
remain unclear.

[Royce]

Not to add an additional layer of complication to this thread, but a true understanding of the
value of damage per hit versus dps is difficult to evaluate when there is not a good understanding
of how armor affects incoming damage. In pl from all accounts armor subtracts from damage.
So let's take the hypothetical situation of two builds, each with 300 dps, one with two attacks of
150 per second, and the other with one attack of 300 per second. Add a boss with 100 armor.
The first build would be doing (150-100) x 2 = 100 true damage per second. The second would
be doing 300-100 = 200 true damage per second. So the weapon with the higher damage per
hit wins out. Unfortunately armor does not seem to work like this in al (if you experiment with
running around levels naked and with armor). Until there is a clear understanding of how armor
works, the debate over damage per hit versus dps (unless u are an aoe nuke mage) will also
remain unclear.

Carapace explained in another thread that everything feeds into a % damage reduction, so it's not at all like PL. X armor = Y% damage reduction, then other damage reduction buffs are added in and that percentage is deducted from incoming damage.

[azefekie]

who's your main in PL? just curious wanna see if you knew what you were doing there. most people who don't do pvp come and make posts about how people should do pvp when they have no idea what to do. i'm pretty sure rush and i know how to pvp being we left PL being some of the top players ever in PL end game pvp. point is we don't plan on doing pve when pvp comes out on AL. You're right spamming you weapon dps is usefull but i promise it's not even close to the dmg that your skills do. I try and tap my weapon dmg one before attacks, i dont expect it to help much but i'm sure when it's all done with it helped some. anyways skills dmg is way better then having dps, so sacrificing some dps for dmg is an easy decision...especially if you're a mage, or plan on being a hardcore pvp player.
With regards to PvP, that is slightly more true-- DPS matters far less than skills because your target will actually be moving around and in and out of range.

But the top-tier PvPers aren't going to only be hurling skills at you. Especially given the fact that all AAs are autoaimed, you are going to be taking plenty of AA damage as well. More so if you're rooted/snared/stunned. How hard your team or you alone can burst can make or break a match, and 50 more damage per second is going to add up multiplied across a team of 5.

[drgrimmy]

Carapace explained in another thread that everything feeds into a % damage reduction, so it's not at all like PL. X armor = Y% damage reduction, then other damage reduction buffs are added in and that percentage is deducted from incoming damage.

Hmm interesting. So lets do the same scenario. 300dps, one player with two 150 damage hits per second and the other with one 300 damage hit per second. Say the boss has armor that reduces incoming damage from you by 50%. Then for first player (150x0.5) x 2 = 150 true damage in one second. For the other player (300x0.50) x 1 = 150 true damage per second.

Seems that dps in al is not as fake of a stat as it is in pl. If armor works like this then dps is really a true representative of the damage you do over time. I guess it then just comes down to how much you rely on skill damage versus raw damage from your weapon. I guess if your build relies on damage from skills, use the weapon with the higher skill damage. If you build relies on damage from you weapon, use the weapon with the higest dps. Definitely makes more sense than how armor and damage works in pl. Too bad you cannot find out how a weapon will affect your skill damage until after you buy it :(

[Energizeric]

But let's just say-- I think you need to try hitting the AA button ALL THE TIME- simultaneously if you can manage. You'll notice a difference.

Yes, this is what I do. I hit my fireball, then lightning, then spam the attack button until those 2 skills cool down (around 3 seconds). Then repeat.

[CosmoxKramer]

have you ever done pvp? weapon dmg means nothing. I will use a skill combo before i touch my weapon for help. you said "higher DPS is better" then you said "if you're just a cheap or poor player DPS is the way to go" lol that doesn't make sense.

Weapon damage damage is important because that and bonus dam % is used to calculate your Damage and your damage directly impacts your skill damage. Also my comment about cheapskate or poor people was abou people not wanted to spam pots and just use 4 offensive skills. They can go spam their weapon, which means they should focus on higher DPS weapons. People that don't mind spending money on pots can get higher damage weapons (like guns) and can just use an all or nearly all skill rotation like me and you

[CosmoxKramer]

Too bad you cannot find out how a weapon will affect your skill damage until after you buy it :(

But you can...

Take the average damage of each skill
Divide that # by your Damage
Use this Second # to * by any Damage value a new weapon would give to show you the new average damage of your given skills

[drgrimmy]

[QUOTE=CosmoxKramer;905268]But you can...

Take the average damage of each skill
Divide that # by your Damage
Use this Second # to * by any Damage value a new weapon would give to show you the new average damage of your given skills[/QUO

Ahh. Thanks! Finally penetrated my thick skull. So the damage indicator under str for warrior,
dex for rogue, and int for mage directly correlates to skill damage via a different multiplier depending
on the particular skill. Very good to know and made sense when I tested out a few weapons.
Thank you very much!

[CosmoxKramer]

Not a problem bud. I have been spending more time trying to figure out how things like this or item stats,etc are calculated, than playing. Stuck at 50% to 21 yet lol

[Vystirch]

Rush who hired you to spam guild in al?

Haha I found out. Zau has been kicked. You have lost any pro or elite status with me. Sry man but it's your fault.

[Rushorgtfo]

Haha I found out. Zau has been kicked. You have lost any pro or elite status with me. Sry man but it's your fault.



Yo relax idk you. I know I'm cute but I ain't looking for no relationship I'm taken.

[primaeva]

who's your main in PL? just curious wanna see if you knew what you were doing there. most people who don't do pvp come and make posts about how people should do pvp when they have no idea what to do. i'm pretty sure rush and i know how to pvp being we left PL being some of the top players ever in PL end game pvp. point is we don't plan on doing pve when pvp comes out on AL. You're right spamming you weapon dps is usefull but i promise it's not even close to the dmg that your skills do. I try and tap my weapon dmg one before attacks, i dont expect it to help much but i'm sure when it's all done with it helped some. anyways skills dmg is way better then having dps, so sacrificing some dps for dmg is an easy decision...especially if you're a mage, or plan on being a hardcore pvp player.

I haven't played PL. I reached 2.1k in S1/S3 in WoW. I'm sorry. But your "Pocket Legends" expertise, PvE or PvP, is laughable.

EDIT: Alright, that was mean. I meant to say-- I haven't played Pocket Legends, but I've PvPed across many genres and games and the fact stands: Skill Damage matters, but autoattacking has a huge role to play as well, and the highest-level meta involves switching / locking down and bursting one target PvE style. As I said, with a team that knows how to utilize AA damage versus one that doesn't, the former will come up on top. It's all about numbers and min-maxing when the strats are roughly the same.

If it ever appears that is untrue, then the problem is just the quality and quantity of top players, and not the mechanic of any weapon or skill.

I'll look forward to PvP. It's why I got AL really.

Finally: In absolute terms, does your post make any point? In PvE DPS is hands-down the most important stat. As for PvP-- in the first place, according to Rush's screenshots, weapons have roughly the same damage but different DPS stats. The top-tier players will presumably be using the best gear anyway, and not cutting corners because of gold shortage. I don't see why you're saying DPS is a trash stat when it can only improve the damage output even in PvP.

[primaeva]

Your so right !!!! Cause in Pvp it matters cause in Pvp u need the highest amount if damadge but In pve it's ok to have small damadge? Lmao I laugh at you and others. Please be the 50th to make a false theory if it makes you feel smarter for going 100% dps go for it.

^ Not going to bother. Either discuss fact with me, or you're not changing my mind. To the audience they can either heed the post of a raging kid or someone who's actually run tests. Not my problem.

[azefekie]

lol WoW?.. i'll just ignore that.. why would a pve build with dps be better then a pvp build for skill dmg in a pve map? that makes no sense, obviously if you're stronger in skill dmg you'll do better in pve then if you were dps built lol, same goes for pvp. your dps isn't an AEO your skill damage is, yes having better skill dmg is better then having better dps.

thank for your "WoW" expertise lmao. i heard angry birds was fun you should try it dude.

last, rush isn't a kid but if it makes you feel bigger calling people that i'm sure he doesn't mind. lol

I haven't played PL. I reached 2.1k in S1/S3 in WoW. I'm sorry. But your "Pocket Legends" expertise, PvE or PvP, is laughable.

EDIT: Alright, that was mean. I meant to say-- I haven't played Pocket Legends, but I've PvPed across many genres and games and the fact stands: Skill Damage matters, but autoattacking has a huge role to play as well, and the highest-level meta involves switching / locking down and bursting one target PvE style. As I said, with a team that knows how to utilize AA damage versus one that doesn't, the former will come up on top. It's all about numbers and min-maxing when the strats are roughly the same.

If it ever appears that is untrue, then the problem is just the quality and quantity of top players, and not the mechanic of any weapon or skill.

I'll look forward to PvP. It's why I got AL really.

Finally: In absolute terms, does your post make any point? In PvE DPS is hands-down the most important stat. As for PvP-- in the first place, according to Rush's screenshots, weapons have roughly the same damage but different DPS stats. The top-tier players will presumably be using the best gear anyway, and not cutting corners because of gold shortage. I don't see why you're saying DPS is a trash stat when it can only improve the damage output even in PvP.

[primaeva]

lol WoW?.. i'll just ignore that.. why would a pve build with dps be better then a pvp build for skill dmg in a pve map? that makes no sense, obviously if you're stronger in skill dmg you'll do better in pve then if you were dps built lol, same goes for pvp. your dps isn't an AEO your skill damage is, yes having better skill dmg is better then having better dps.

thank for your "WoW" expertise lmao. i heard angry birds was fun you should try it dude.

last, rush isn't a kid but if it makes you feel bigger calling people that i'm sure he doesn't mind. lol

1) There's no such thing as a "Skill Damage" build. Damage and Attack Speed make for DPS. Your bow can hit as hard as daggers, maybe, but the dagger hits 1.5x as fast = more DPS.

2) Actually, melee attacks ARE AoE. Oh dear. Someone's apparently not even aware about the game he's playing.

I'm stopping here. Waste of breath.

[Dreuefesie]

I'm sorry. But your "Pocket Legends" expertise, PvE or PvP, is laughable.


Aze and rush both are very experienced when it comes to PL. I owe many of my PVP deaths to them. Also many of my kills. They are very helpful. I have farmed with rush numerous times in PL and Aze in AL and PVPed with both of them. I'm sure if you had any questions about AL or PL they would be happy to help you, but criticizing them about their skill in a game you have never played, might not be the best idea. Especially with PVP coming soon ;).

Anyway I know that DPS does play a role while attacking while you wait for your skills to recharge, but I do not see that it makes a considerable difference to your overall damage output. Whereas focusing your damage will do better IMO.

[azefekie]

lmfao AEO is area of effect rofl its skill damage. Also i'm a mage the more you add int, or get a ring or pendant with damage bonus adds to your skill dmg. oh dear i guess you're not sure what your talking about. i'm sure theres some threads you can read to learn how to properly understand STS games. If you need i can help you IG
1) There's no such thing as a "Skill Damage" build. Damage and Attack Speed make for DPS. Your bow can hit as hard as daggers, maybe, but the dagger hits 1.5x as fast = more DPS.

2) Actually, melee attacks ARE AoE. Oh dear. Someone's apparently not even aware about the game he's playing.

I'm stopping here. Waste of breath.

[azefekie]

just a heads up not sure if you're aware of this.. "dps" is your weapon dmg ( if you look at your stats) and "damage" is what helps your skills increase in power.

[primaeva]

Aze and rush both are very experienced when it comes to PL. I owe many of my PVP deaths to them. Also many of my kills. They are very helpful. I have farmed with rush numerous times in PL and Aze in AL and PVPed with both of them. I'm sure if you had any questions about AL or PL they would be happy to help you, but criticizing them about their skill in a game you have never played, might not be the best idea. Especially with PVP coming soon ;).

Anyway I know that DPS does play a role while attacking while you wait for your skills to recharge, but I do not see that it makes a considerable difference to your overall damage output. Whereas focusing your damage will do better IMO.

You're right. You shouldn't criticize someone in a game you've never played. I hope your friend there reads your own advice. Which is why someone implying that I have never PvPed before and should defer myself to their PL PvP experience is really just laughable.

You're also missing the point. There's no such thing as 'focusing on damage' because any increase in damage adds to an increase in DPS. Must I really do the math? It increases skill damage AND autoattack.

As for the joker who can't even spell "AoE" right -- NORMAL ATTACKS HIT MORE THAN ONE TARGET IN A SMALL AREA = AoE.

Welcome to Arcane Legends. And while I normally extend help to those who ask for it, I can't tolerate those who have an OCD to misspell everything, even three-word acronyms. Don't bother adding me, and I'll see you in PvP.

For the poor people who came here for information- TL:DR, if you're poor or don't mind just DPSing using skills, use a cheap weapon, it's okay. For people who actually want to dominate leaderboards and PvP - bust out that wallet and grab the best gear anyway. DPS is overrated in terms of how much it costs, but it still needed for top-tier performance.

[primaeva]

just a heads up not sure if you're aware of this.. "dps" is your weapon dmg ( if you look at your stats) and "damage" is what helps your skills increase in power.

This will be my last post here. Damage is added to DPS as well. Hurp derp. Bye.

[azefekie]

you're right i can't spell, point is we know what were talking about and yes you can focus on one thing. not all weapons with high dps will give higher dmg, go with a different one and sacrifice dps for higher skill dmg. I'm still not sure you understand what aoe is. i guess i'm done here pointless trying to explain how pvp and builds work to someone who thinks he can't be wrong. Well we can't wait to have fun in pvp with you when it's finally released.

[azefekie]

...lol, hopeless
This will be my last post here. Damage is added to DPS as well. Hurp derp. Bye.

[TheAnonymous]

Thanks for posting this now all the items I buy for my toons will no longer be in the CS for under 30k :(

I liked having the Damage > DPS secret so the DPS crap could stay up in the millions and I could fit my toons all out in better gear than what people currently think is the best for dirt cheap.

Guess I better buy up my stuff quicker and level my toons now that the secret is out :( BLEH

[TheAnonymous]

One good example of this which always has made me laugh especially in AL.

People put up all these +80 DPS mage/rogue weapons and fail to realize they use their skills more and that is where the damage should be coming from not from your weapon in melee which DPS is.

I just picked up earlier tonight on a very nice deal Clever Wyrmbone Staff of Brutality for 25,000 Level 21 and it's beats out the Coldscope Brutality that I got from Platstore by +2.5 Damage 2% Bonus Damage and 24.9 DPS.

People see that DPS though and they like man that weapon sucks! It only has +24.9 I want those +80 DPS weapons that also take away 20-30 SPELL damage and they wonder why they suck :)

I really wish this secret would have stayed though between those of us who knew better until we at least sold the crap DPS gear for high price for awhile and gathered some gold or we all were able to supply the good equiptment cheap to our characters.

[DataPunk]

You're right. You shouldn't criticize someone in a game you've never played. I hope your friend there reads your own advice. Which is why someone implying that I have never PvPed before and should defer myself to their PL PvP experience is really just laughable.

You're also missing the point. There's no such thing as 'focusing on damage' because any increase in damage adds to an increase in DPS. Must I really do the math? It increases skill damage AND autoattack.

As for the joker who can't even spell "AoE" right -- NORMAL ATTACKS HIT MORE THAN ONE TARGET IN A SMALL AREA = AoE.

Welcome to Arcane Legends. And while I normally extend help to those who ask for it, I can't tolerate those who have an OCD to misspell everything, even three-word acronyms. Don't bother adding me, and I'll see you in PvP.

For the poor people who came here for information- TL:DR, if you're poor or don't mind just DPSing using skills, use a cheap weapon, it's okay. For people who actually want to dominate leaderboards and PvP - bust out that wallet and grab the best gear anyway. DPS is overrated in terms of how much it costs, but it still needed for top-tier performance.

No offence but STS forums are not the omg uber pwner at wow forums and tbh ur attitude to people will make very helpful people not so helpful. Please keep the forums clean from name calling. We are all adults, no need to attack some1s spelling.

Fyi I'm on the leaderboards with my warrior atm with very crappy gear lol. Don't overvalue gear in a game thats 2 months old.

[Hsam8913]

Thus insist on dps over dmg should open their skill page n read it for once

[CosmoxKramer]

Lol. I think there was confusion, because what Aze was talking about was the DPS stat on the avatar page, and Prima was talking about overall DPS (including, skill damage, Crit) etc. because in WoW there is not DPS stat, just Adonis to the game that would take live damage readings over time in combat and calculate your DPS. Since this isn't possible in here it is hard to argue the fact because no one will ever know

In the end the point is, if u use a 4 off skill build they you hardly ever use your weapon to attack. If this is the case get a weapon with high Damage(on avatar page). If u like spamming your weapon get one with higher DPS(on avatar page)

[Muhmota]

Rush and prim make two valid points. But with out being able to meter actual overall dps. You can't prove who is right.

Prim believes a combo of skills and aa hits out puts more overall dps and damage.( not talking about stats. Actual damage delt.)

It's all theory with out being able to meter how much damage you actually did. In the same frame of time.

[Rushorgtfo]

Dps and damadge are not well balanced atm due to high dps items like lv 21 heart seekers and plat bows In the store. Although damadge over dps is what will make you good at Pvp. Some people are just plain pve only and maybe they find dps more helpful vs bosses. I'm a pvper person my skills regenerate all In less than 6 seconds so I'm constantly spamming out 3000+ dmasdge every 6 seconds how!? Sorry but I refuse to tell anyone. But I will say this. Swollow your pride everyone your wrong. Go with damadge^_^


When new improved bows are released and up to date I sincerely feel bad for anyone who still chooses daggers and dps. Just don't Pvp :P or Ill crush your pride and you'll help me rank on the leaderboards.

[gundamsone]

One good example of this which always has made me laugh especially in AL.

People put up all these +80 DPS mage/rogue weapons and fail to realize they use their skills more and that is where the damage should be coming from not from your weapon in melee which DPS is.

I just picked up earlier tonight on a very nice deal Clever Wyrmbone Staff of Brutality for 25,000 Level 21 and it's beats out the Coldscope Brutality that I got from Platstore by +2.5 Damage 2% Bonus Damage and 24.9 DPS.

People see that DPS though and they like man that weapon sucks! It only has +24.9 I want those +80 DPS weapons that also take away 20-30 SPELL damage and they wonder why they suck :)

I really wish this secret would have stayed though between those of us who knew better until we at least sold the crap DPS gear for high price for awhile and gathered some gold or we all were able to supply the good equiptment cheap to our characters.

Gotta disagree with you. A good mage auto atks way more than you can imagine. It's actually not worth charging any skills on elite bosses b/c in the amount of time it takes for you to charge a skill, you can do far more damage spamming auto attack. Wyvern staffs are incomparable to flame staffs in these situations.

People arn't foolish enough to pay 500k-1mil just for some boosted numbers. They're high for a reason.

[primaeva]

Gotta disagree with you. A good mage auto atks way more than you can imagine. It's actually not worth charging any skills on elite bosses b/c in the amount of time it takes for you to charge a skill, you can do far more damage spamming auto attack. Wyvern staffs are incomparable to flame staffs in these situations.

People arn't foolish enough to pay 500k-1mil just for some boosted numbers. They're high for a reason.

^Meh, leave them be. If they haven't the dexterity to AA and skill at the same time, they're not going to ever know the difference.

@Muhmota: I guess solo times and who can steal and hold aggro are the only meters. I'd gladly run with any rogue who wants to test high damage vs high DPS weapons. You steal the aggro, you prove me wrong. At least I'm actually holding my tests instead of looking at paperdoll damage. (The irony of that in this thread.)

[primaeva]

Lol. I think there was confusion, because what Aze was talking about was the DPS stat on the avatar page, and Prima was talking about overall DPS (including, skill damage, Crit) etc. because in WoW there is not DPS stat, just Adonis to the game that would take live damage readings over time in combat and calculate your DPS. Since this isn't possible in here it is hard to argue the fact because no one will ever know

In the end the point is, if u use a 4 off skill build they you hardly ever use your weapon to attack. If this is the case get a weapon with high Damage(on avatar page). If u like spamming your weapon get one with higher DPS(on avatar page)

Hmm, actually, to be -very- technical. There's a short animation time after one skill fires that you can get off up to two autoattacks (depending on weapon speed) before your character can begin animation into another. That's the gap for you to maximize your damage output. Oh damn. I just handed the most guarded secret of top-tier DPS out.

..... Nah let's just use four skills on cooldown. I'm sure that's going to achieve more.

Cosmo, you sort of get me. I just want to clarify to everyone that if two weapons both show 10 damage but one does 20 DPS and the other 10 DPS, the difference in skills will be small-- but the attack speed difference is huge.

[Rushorgtfo]

^Meh, leave them be. If they haven't the dexterity to AA and skill at the same time, they're not going to ever know the difference.

@Muhmota: I guess solo times and who can steal and hold aggro are the only meters. I'd gladly run with any rogue who wants to test high damage vs high DPS weapons. You steal the aggro, you prove me wrong. At least I'm actually holding my tests instead of looking at paperdoll damage. (The irony of that in this thread.)




Ill be all damadg you can be dps ill even use a store bow. Lmao ill steal all the aggro from you. Ive never fought one boss where the aggro wasn't on me so gl

[primaeva]

Ill be all damadg you can be dps ill even use a store bow. Lmao ill steal all the aggro from you. Ive never fought one boss where the aggro wasn't on me so gl

What's your IGN? Let's do this right now.

[Rushorgtfo]

What's your IGN? Let's do this right now.



Xclydex add me

[azefekie]

We already tried to explain this lol let it go bro
Dps and damadge are not well balanced atm due to high dps items like lv 21 heart seekers and plat bows In the store. Although damadge over dps is what will make you good at Pvp. Some people are just plain pve only and maybe they find dps more helpful vs bosses. I'm a pvper person my skills regenerate all In less than 6 seconds so I'm constantly spamming out 3000+ dmasdge every 6 seconds how!? Sorry but I refuse to tell anyone. But I will say this. Swollow your pride everyone your wrong. Go with damadge^_^


When new improved bows are released and up to date I sincerely feel bad for anyone who still chooses daggers and dps. Just don't Pvp :P or Ill crush your pride and you'll help me rank on the leaderboards.

[azefekie]

no one said anything about charging skills on a boss lol. i do about 2-3k damage in one full combo while you sit there and spam your weapon dps. thats what 500 dmg? lol.
Gotta disagree with you. A good mage auto atks way more than you can imagine. It's actually not worth charging any skills on elite bosses b/c in the amount of time it takes for you to charge a skill, you can do far more damage spamming auto attack. Wyvern staffs are incomparable to flame staffs in these situations.

People arn't foolish enough to pay 500k-1mil just for some boosted numbers. They're high for a reason.

[azefekie]

listen you already said you got your knowledge from WoW lol. play one of STS's games for a while you'll come back and agree with us. well maybe not...you don't know how to be wrong
Hmm, actually, to be -very- technical. There's a short animation time after one skill fires that you can get off up to two autoattacks (depending on weapon speed) before your character can begin animation into another. That's the gap for you to maximize your damage output. Oh damn. I just handed the most guarded secret of top-tier DPS out.

..... Nah let's just use four skills on cooldown. I'm sure that's going to achieve more.

Cosmo, you sort of get me. I just want to clarify to everyone that if two weapons both show 10 damage but one does 20 DPS and the other 10 DPS, the difference in skills will be small-- but the attack speed difference is huge.

[CosmoxKramer]

Cosmo, you sort of get me. I just want to clarify to everyone that if two weapons both show 10 damage but one does 20 DPS and the other 10 DPS, the difference in skills will be small-- but the attack speed difference is huge.

yep. the original point i think is the gun damage is about 10 more Damage than a Flamestrike, but flamestrike dps is like 70 more. That 10 damage relates to about 13-20 more damage on average per skill cast. But a flamestrike is about 1.8 attacks per second and a Coldscope gun is 1.125 attacks per second, Blue Blaster is also 1.125 so you can get 3 FL aa attacks off in the time of 2 gun attacks. 3* FL-Damage + skills > 2*gun-Damage + skills when talking about real damage done (on a single target).

[Rushorgtfo]

So me and prime did some testing. The only way you can test is these to items. So we had two good legit aggro test he pulled once and I pulled once 1:1 my conclusion is sts has a good balance between damadge a dps for FUTURE bows and daggers because atm only daggers are considered top tier atm. So no argueing there. But dps and damadge are pretty much balanced in pve. As for Pvp that will most likely require short burst of high damadge as scene in recent sts games. So this concludes damadge 2 and dps 1

http://i1170.photobucket.com/albums/r524/joestrums/E98F9AE5-FC37-4C2F-9C5E-386035872644-7534-0000072F0548C2FC.jpg

[primaeva]

Test is over.

====TEST PART 1: WEAPONS OF CHOICE ========

Using my weapon of choice and the store-bought bow that was supposed to hold aggro off me, I held aggro in Mardrom against another rogue with a 25% damage elixir.

We ran again and he held aggro. My explanation: I was getting spanked off the boss by his two little pigs. Rush has no problems with this due to Piercer closing the gap. But anyway, we moved to Jarl.

Oh, I shared my 15% smoke buff instead of having Shadow Piercer damage as well, so I think that should factor in.

========== TEST PART II: Using lower-tier weapons ========

We ran this time with Rush using a Frost Bow and me using the Frost daggers instead of my usual weapon.

After a lot of messing around, we got two solid tests in: one I held it, and one he held it.

Resolved to do this tomorrow. Sounds like a good idea. I need to get used to using SP.

============

Still my question is-- the current statement that overpriced weapons are overpriced-- how so? The high DPS does pay off in PvE without question (as I've said.) There's nothing wrong with the 'obsession' of DPS at this moment.

Edit: Oh. Yeah, as Rush posted. Right now pay through the nose for your dagger. I have no idea how bows are going to be in the future but presumably Rush does. If they add a more significant amount to skill damage (right now it's a weak 5-10% more, needs to hit 50% or so), then by all means feel free to treat them as equals.

As it stands now, however, the bows are underpowered at the top-tier.

[Rushorgtfo]

Test 1 was totally invalid lmao. And vs a whole different boss.

[azefekie]

there you go making excuses again, my mage held aggro from you and you started throwing out reason "i was texting" " i was looking at something" lol. you finally got aggro one run and you jumped for joy laughing and acting like you made a point lol. Lets end this before the mods close this down, there are a lot of good things in this thread ( minus a few) that new comers can try out for themselves. you have your dps build which is fine don't care, it's what you like. we'll carry our skill dmg, i'll kill someone in pvp before they can spam me with their weapon dmg lol.

[Rushorgtfo]

Ten inches UNBUFFED best al guild woot woot

[primaeva]

The second part of this needs to be addressed to Azefekie or however you spell his name.

1) Damage matters more in PvP than PvE. I said this a billion times. But you keep bringing it up insisting that I missed it. No, I perfectly understand.

HERE IS MY POINT:

2) At the top-tier levels of PvP, there will be players who know how to make autoattacks count. This is known as min-maxing your damage output. You will be beaten by this group of players, or you will become one of them. Or you will never encounter them, which just implies that the standard of PvP will never reach a very high level. Pick your outcome.

[primaeva]

there you go making excuses again, my mage held aggro from you and you started throwing out reason "i was texting" " i was looking at something" lol. you finally got aggro one run and you jumped for joy laughing and acting like you made a point lol. Lets end this before the mods close this down, there are a lot of good things in this thread ( minus a few) that new comers can try out for themselves. you have your dps build which is fine don't care, it's what you like. we'll carry our skill dmg, i'll kill someone in pvp before they can spam me with their weapon dmg lol.

Your mage held aggro from me when I was equipped with 17k daggers from the CS and with no pet out. I was waiting for me and Rush to start testing again when you initiated on Jarl. Rush asked me "Shall we continue later?" and I said "huh?". And then we started DPS on Jarl. You held aggro from us both, and then LAUGHED at me for not getting aggro.

So I decided to let you know what real damage is. I invited you to two Jarls.

Your mage failed, twice, to even get Jarl's interest even after I ran off at 30%, once I had requipped my ALP and brought my pet out.

Now, Azefekie, tell the facts like they are.

[azefekie]

.+1
Ten inches UNBUFFED best al guild woot woot

[Rushorgtfo]

The second part of this needs to be addressed to Azefekie or however you spell his name.

1) Damage matters more in PvP than PvE. I said this a billion times. But you keep bringing it up insisting that I missed it. No, I perfectly understand.

HERE IS MY POINT:

2) At the top-tier levels of PvP, there will be players who know how to make autoattacks count. This is known as min-maxing your damage output. You will be beaten by this group of players, or you will become one of them. Or you will never encounter them, which just implies that the standard of PvP will never reach a very high level. Pick your outcome.




You are using WoW Pvp and applying it to a mobile MMO. If you played sts recent games you would realize Pvp fights 1v1 end in 3-5 skills sometimes 1-3. When you have 3 seconds to build as much damage a possibly can against someone dps will not matter whatsoever. If you want to apply this to all formulas make a pl acc buy a talon ill use a bow and you can square off with me.

[azefekie]

...lol...like i said in another post, "you don't know how to be wrong" no matter what the real outcome was. It's fine, can't wait for pvp in AL should be another hit. keep your dps.
Your mage held aggro from me when I was equipped with 17k daggers from the CS and with no pet out. I was waiting for me and Rush to start testing again when you initiated on Jarl. Rush asked me "Shall we continue later?" and I said "huh?". And then we started DPS on Jarl. You held aggro from us both, and then LAUGHED at me for not getting aggro.

So I decided to let you know what real damage is. I invited you to two Jarls.

Your mage failed, twice, to even get Jarl's interest even after I ran off at 30%, once I had requipped my ALP and brought my pet out.

Now, Azefekie, tell the facts like they are.

[primaeva]

...lol...like i said in another post, "you don't know how to be wrong" no matter what the real outcome was. It's fine, can't wait for pvp in AL should be another hit. keep your dps.

Hush. Adults are talking. If you don't want to talk facts and figures, I haven't got time for you. Work on your damage cycle, by the way.

[azefekie]

lol what's with you and thinking calling people "kids" is an insult. I'm actually starting to feel bad that we've been responding to your posts, when you clearly don't know how STS games work. We keep trying to tell you....this isn't WoW, and no one here wants you WoW "expertise."
Hush. Adults are talking. If you don't want to talk facts and figures, I haven't got time for you. Work on your damage cycle, by the way.

[primaeva]

All I'm saying is-- it can be 3-5 skills, or 3-5 skills + 6-10 autoattacks.

And I was all along arguing for the current state of affairs. I don't know what legendary bows are in store. My first post was merely to refute the claim in the opening post that "80% of the time in PvE and PvP you will be skilling". The claim went on to say the top-tier, high DPS weapons were totally overrated.

And I rebutted. I wanted to clarify that the million-gold weapons on the CS are worth that much. I think we proved that.

I've gone one further and helped you test out a theory that in the FUTURE, high DPS weapons might be overrated. But apparently it's pretty close.

I've agreed that in PvP damage will be more important. The thing is, any increase in damage is factored into the DPS as well. Therefore if Heartseekers do 4-6 less damage but 90 more DPS, it's because their attack speed is through the roof. I've said that PvP involves moving targets which complicates things. But the better you are, the more you'll work AA into your PvP style.

Or all I've said can fall on deaf ears. I'm looking forward to PvP as much as you are. It's why I even downloaded this game, to be honest.

[primaeva]

lol what's with you and thinking calling people "kids" is an insult. I'm actually starting to feel bad that we've been responding to your posts, when you clearly don't know how STS games work. We keep trying to tell you....this isn't WoW, and no one here wants you WoW "expertise."

I think I have a better idea of how they work already, considering your failure to prove anything you say in-game... and nothing other than make ridiculous, untrue claims on forums or in my party chat.

You're welcome to try a third time, this time with a six-second headstart.

[azefekie]

...lol I'm done here. whatever you say is true. rush and I are clueless players (mainly rush :P).

[Rushorgtfo]

All I'm saying is-- it can be 3-5 skills, or 3-5 skills + 6-10 autoattacks.

And I was all along arguing for the current state of affairs. I don't know what legendary bows are in store. My first post was merely to refute the claim in the opening post that "80% of the time in PvE and PvP you will be skilling". The claim went on to say the top-tier, high DPS weapons were totally overrated.

And I rebutted. I wanted to clarify that the million-gold weapons on the CS are worth that much. I think we proved that.

I've gone one further and helped you test out a theory that in the FUTURE, high DPS weapons might be overrated. But apparently it's pretty close.

I've agreed that in PvP damage will be more important. The thing is, any increase in damage is factored into the DPS as well. Therefore if Heartseekers do 4-6 less damage but 90 more DPS, it's because their attack speed is through the roof. I've said that PvP involves moving targets which complicates things. But the better you are, the more you'll work AA into your PvP style.

Or all I've said can fall on deaf ears. I'm looking forward to PvP as much as you are. It's why I even downloaded this game, to be honest.



If you can move press auto an spam your skills all at once At the SAME time with 3 fingers props. But your relying on auto attack for extra damadge. My 3 skills will kill you while you character is in the middle of an auto attack


Skills > auto attack

[Rushorgtfo]

And yes high dps weapons are overrated. Lv TENTY ONE BANE DAGGERS OF POTENCY highest damadge daggers. Lower dps. I get around 220 dps 152-153 damadge with them. Yes you can still surely argue no life thief and heart seekers blah blah blah but you don't even take into consideration, PROCS bane daggers proc -15% hit and dodge to your enemy And to proc that you don't even have to CHARGE auto attack unlike life thief you have to charge to proc and steal HP. Killing your damadge per second. Atm life thief and heart seekers are overated. Demon blades and bane knives are the true top tier rogue weapons. Gf

[primaeva]

And yes high dps weapons are overrated. Lv TENTY ONE BANE DAGGERS OF POTENCY highest damadge daggers. Lower dps. I get around 220 dps 152-153 damadge with them. Yes you can still surely argue no life thief and heart seekers blah blah blah but you don't even take into consideration, PROCS bane daggers proc -15% hit and dodge to your enemy And to proc that you don't even have to CHARGE auto attack unlike life thief you have to charge to proc and steal HP. Killing your damadge per second. Atm life thief and heart seekers are overated. Demon blades and bane knives are the true top tier rogue weapons. Gf

I think my 35 second Jarl runs disagree with you. If you go any faster with Banes, let me know + screenshot.

Saying they're overrated doesn't make sense when everyone is doing PvE right now. That's the current game. You can say they're overrated for PvP when PvP is actually released next year. Your thread's trying to inform people to get the cheaper weapons, promising close-to-equal performance? I don't think anyone on the leaderboard's using Bane Knives -- because they don't put out as much as Lifethiefs.

By the way, you left your Frostbite of Brutality with me. You can keep the Bane Knives -- they cost 75k, but meh. I'm rolling in gold.

P.S. The Lifethief proc DOES suck.

[Hsam8913]

Just one play who hold both dagger n bow need to do the test,try to solo a tanky boss 10 times with same skill set ,items and pet.The result should be more obvious.no point arguing over a poorly done test .

[primaeva]

Just one play who hold both dagger n bow need to do the test,try to solo a tanky boss 10 times with same skill set ,items and pet.The result should be more obvious.no point arguing over a poorly done test .

I did test by myself before coming in here, but I bought a 45k bow and not the top-tier ones. Hence I didn't mention the test.

From my usual 40s (daggers) to 1m or so (bow), and these are averages over a few runs and same skill set. Considering ~15 seconds is the run in, the DPS time increased from 25s to 45s. It could have to do with daggers hitting multiple mobs, but the boss fight was definitely slower as well.

[Rushorgtfo]

I think my 35 second Jarl runs disagree with you. If you go any faster with Banes, let me know + screenshot.

Saying they're overrated doesn't make sense when everyone is doing PvE right now. That's the current game. You can say they're overrated for PvP when PvP is actually released next year. Your thread's trying to inform people to get the cheaper weapons, promising close-to-equal performance? I don't think anyone on the leaderboard's using Bane Knives -- because they don't put out as much as Lifethiefs.

By the way, you left your Frostbite of Brutality with me. You can keep the Bane Knives -- they cost 75k, but meh. I'm rolling in gold.

P.S. The Lifethief proc DOES suck.




Pvp will be released next month gf wasting 3 m

[Hsam8913]

No point compare average bow to best dagger.Critical Dmg are so huge in difference

[Duflie]

Ten inches UNBUFFED best al guild woot woot

HAHA i saw that guild in game and i was just loling.

[DataPunk]

I'm sorry but if you both didnt have the exact same setup this 'test' doesnt prove anything.

[Rushorgtfo]

Damadge wins by default as scene in every single one of sts games damadge rules Pvp not dps. And I'm 100% sure if there 3/4 they'll be 4/4 when Pvp comes out next month. I've pve is a invalid test than damadge wins by default 1:0 gf

[ProSophist]

Not sure why people are arguing back and forth claiming things when I have yet to see any real math to back it up.
It's just a bunch of trust-me's or I-know-better-than-you's. When you claim something, give concrete proof, not your word.

While I am quite interested in this subject, I learned nothing in 6 pages.

[Rushorgtfo]

Not sure why people are arguing back and forth claiming things when I have yet to see any real math to back it up.
It's just a bunch of trust-me's or I-know-better-than-you's. When you claim something, give concrete proof, not your word.

While I am quite interested in this subject, I learned nothing in 6 pages.



Proof is in The last 3 sts games.

[Limsi]

Proof is in The last 3 sts games.

And you assume it's the same banana here?

[Rushorgtfo]

And you assume it's the same banana here?


You tell me. If your sideing with a 25% chance it's different go for it. After being a player since sts started April of 2010 I have a pretty good idea of their style.

[Unigoldnes]

Ur theory is right,and it MESSED UP CS MARKET REAL BAD BRO

[grunt226]

Just wanted to thank you guys for enlightening me and helping better understand how gear effects my skills, never thought of looking at those to determine which weapons do the best damage all around. Thanks guys!

[Limsi]

You tell me. If your sideing with a 25% chance it's different go for it. After being a player since sts started April of 2010 I have a pretty good idea of their style.

I see that you speak of experience, that of which I lack in terms of the longitivtiy of playing time with their previous titles. This theory can be true for this game, however may turn out to be the other side of the coin. I have yet to discover for myself the impact of these statistics once Pvp gets implemented. For the record, I am neutral as of this moment with regards to this issue. Good day! ;)

[Rushorgtfo]

Best dps of game is 272.4 (not buffed)
Best armor is 973
Highest health was 4000 and something


Best dps of game 275.4
Best damadge (mine) 164.7
Best armor 1,180

[Energizeric]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

[Rushorgtfo]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.



Thanks ^_^ your good to.

[Lesmiserables]

:miserable:Too many pages i cant read finish:miserable:

[ShadowGunX]

really rush u should pm sam to move to sorcerer discussion.

[Rushorgtfo]

really rush u should pm sam to move to sorcerer discussion.



Why? It's more of a genralization between classes and dps and damadge all together.

[ShadowGunX]

Why? It's more of a genralization between classes and dps and damadge all together.

i saw mostly on bout socerer

[*Zero*]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[Lesmiserables]

Hey its possible :02.47-tranquillity: as i myself can personally take him down in less than 40-50sec or so .
Pics or it didn't happen.

[azefekie]

It's probably because that's what was brought up?.... Wanna talk about warriors? I'll start it, warriors are useless meat bags.
i saw mostly on bout socerer

[azefekie]

just because you can't do it doesn't mean it can't happen. lol @ pics or it didn't happen. rush and i do it consistently at 50- 58 secs.
Pics or it didn't happen.

[Enisceloz]

It's probably because that's what was brought up?.... Wanna talk about warriors? I'll start it, warriors are useless meat bags.

Take that back you mofo lol!!!!

[azefekie]

Sorry dude I can't, it's the next topic here lol.
Take that back you mofo lol!!!!

[Limsi]

Again, let's try to refrain from being rude to others. There's no point that we post these replies if it would not contribute to the main purpose of the thread.

[azefekie]

We know each other...relax...take a deep breath..count back from 10 mom. doesn't matter where the thread goes as long as it's constructive...your post..not constructive. neither is this...look what you've done!
Again, let's try to refrain from being rude to others. There's no point that we post these replies if it would not contribute to the main purpose of the thread.

[Limsi]

Goodluck to you ;)

[crazyliketat]

With Les's dmge and dps I don't see y not.. before at lvl 16 arqy did 45 secs wid elixers.. and I did 48 without.. mm idk now tho.. coz I think I sukk now on stats.. :/

IGN: Dervy

[nicoB]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

Did jarl with all dps rogues in 54s. only skills that were used we're shadow veil and razor sheild...i think it would of taken longer if we spamed skills more than the main attack

[GoodSyntax]

Now, forgive me for jumping in because my math and theory may be way off base, but here is how it see it.

Rather than look at DPS, I would look towards total damage output in a minute - which includes damage via skill and auto combined.

So, knowing that everything is based on the Damage stat, factor in an attack speed (which we must derive by taking Damage/DPS). The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

So, given the above, which is a gross oversimplification of the actual variables involved (and not to mention that I need to do a lot of testing to verify - I only took a look at a couple of items in my inventory) here is what I calculate:

Lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency Equipped on my Rogue

Damage: 77.3
Bonus Dmg: 181%
DPS: 139.1

Shadow Piercer Damage: 105-131
Noxious Bolt: 105-131
Aimed Shot: 136-170
Shadow Storm Shot: 89-111

Calculated weapon speed: 0.555715 (Damage divided by DPS)
Calculated Damage Fractions of Skills: (Min Fraction = Skill Min Damage/Damage, Max Fraction = Skill Max Damage/Damage)

Shadow Piercer: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Noxious Bolt: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Aimed Shot: 1.759379 - 2.199224
Shadow Storm Shot: 1.151358 - 1.435964

The cooldown times for the skills as follows:

Shadow Piercer: 2
Noxious Bolt: 2
Aimed Shot: 2
Shadow Storm Shot: 5


With all that - not including other variables, which I know are also present, such as poison damage, pet damage, AoE damage, we can calculate the total single target damage output in a minute.

To keep things simple, let's exclude critical damage, because the calculations get a bit more complex as we have to determine the number of attacks per minute for each skill and auto, get the crit percentage add in the Bonus Damage multiplier and calculate the values with crit included.

So, without crit and assuming single target damage here is what I calculate with my Daggers:

Shadow Piercer:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Noxious Bolt:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Aimed Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 4080 (136*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 5100 (170*30)

Shadow Storm Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 12
- Min Damage/minute: 1068 (89*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 1332 (111*30)

Auto Attack:
- Attacks/minute: ~108 ([Damage/DPS]*60)
- Damage/minute: 8346 (DPS*60)


So, total damage output per minute ranges from 19,794 - 22,638

Unfortunately, I could not get a decent bow that offers more damage than my daggers, but the point is that 42% of your total damage output potential comes from auto attack.

For PvE mobs, I would venture to say that total damage output outweighs your base damage stat. For bosses, and PvP, damage becomes the primary factor of success because you are looking to maximize damage output in a 10-12 second window. In that instance, higher base damage from a good bow becomes more important because your skills are simply a multiplier of your base damage. In the case of Aimed Shot, a +8 damage bow would actually yield +20 damage per critical hit (250%)...so in the course of 12 seconds, aimed shot with a +8 bow would actually deliver up to +120 more damage than a dagger. But in the long run, such as dealing with mobs, total damage output (AKA DPS) would be better as you can take down more targets faster.

Best bet, get a good dagger to deal with mobs, and a good bow for PvP and Boss killing.

[moomookau]

so I bought a L21 Frost Heart of Lethality to test. Let's just say I would rather stick to auto attacking with my agile lifethief. I'm not even using agile lifethief of potency but the cheaper agile lifethief of force.

How many attack skills do rogues have that higher damage is needed?

How I do bosses are basically by dropping smoke, aimed shot without charging and spamming auto attack. Rinse and repeat.

[Lesmiserables]

+1 i agree , spamming auto attacks in-between skills gives you much higher dmg output rather than waiting for skills to cooldown , and basically i have seen crits by my ALP 21 doing 1k for normal hits , so i think auto-atk in between skills are really important .
Now, forgive me for jumping in because my math and theory may be way off base, but here is how it see it.

Rather than look at DPS, I would look towards total damage output in a minute - which includes damage via skill and auto combined.

So, knowing that everything is based on the Damage stat, factor in an attack speed (which we must derive by taking Damage/DPS). The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

So, given the above, which is a gross oversimplification of the actual variables involved (and not to mention that I need to do a lot of testing to verify - I only took a look at a couple of items in my inventory) here is what I calculate:

Lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency Equipped on my Rogue

Damage: 77.3
Bonus Dmg: 181%
DPS: 139.1

Shadow Piercer Damage: 105-131
Noxious Bolt: 105-131
Aimed Shot: 136-170
Shadow Storm Shot: 89-111

Calculated weapon speed: 0.555715 (Damage divided by DPS)
Calculated Damage Fractions of Skills: (Min Fraction = Skill Min Damage/Damage, Max Fraction = Skill Max Damage/Damage)

Shadow Piercer: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Noxious Bolt: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Aimed Shot: 1.759379 - 2.199224
Shadow Storm Shot: 1.151358 - 1.435964

The cooldown times for the skills as follows:

Shadow Piercer: 2
Noxious Bolt: 2
Aimed Shot: 2
Shadow Storm Shot: 5


With all that - not including other variables, which I know are also present, such as poison damage, pet damage, AoE damage, we can calculate the total single target damage output in a minute.

To keep things simple, let's exclude critical damage, because the calculations get a bit more complex as we have to determine the number of attacks per minute for each skill and auto, get the crit percentage add in the Bonus Damage multiplier and calculate the values with crit included.

So, without crit and assuming single target damage here is what I calculate with my Daggers:

Shadow Piercer:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Noxious Bolt:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Aimed Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 4080 (136*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 5100 (170*30)

Shadow Storm Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 12
- Min Damage/minute: 1068 (89*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 1332 (111*30)

Auto Attack:
- Attacks/minute: ~108 ([Damage/DPS]*60)
- Damage/minute: 8346 (DPS*60)


So, total damage output per minute ranges from 19,794 - 22,638

Unfortunately, I could not get a decent bow that offers more damage than my daggers, but the point is that 42% of your total damage output potential comes from auto attack.

For PvE mobs, I would venture to say that total damage output outweighs your base damage stat. For bosses, and PvP, damage becomes the primary factor of success because you are looking to maximize damage output in a 10-12 second window. In that instance, higher base damage from a good bow becomes more important because your skills are simply a multiplier of your base damage. In the case of Aimed Shot, a +8 damage bow would actually yield +20 damage per critical hit (250%)...so in the course of 12 seconds, aimed shot with a +8 bow would actually deliver up to +120 more damage than a dagger. But in the long run, such as dealing with mobs, total damage output (AKA DPS) would be better as you can take down more targets faster.

Best bet, get a good dagger to deal with mobs, and a good bow for PvP and Boss killing.

[parnasofication]

Been wondering about this, does movement speed affect attack speed/dps? (i know it doesn't show in stats) i've been trying to test it with my warrior, he seems to attack faster..but the speed increase seems so low to a warrior cause of a low base attack speed, that maybe i'm just imagining it. Any experience or input from rogues with alp?

[Lesmiserables]

Well i dont think i atk faster with the 25% speed elixir so i doubt u will atk faster lol , its all in ur mind dude hehe .
Been wondering about this, does movement speed affect attack speed/dps? (i know it doesn't show in stats) i've been trying to test it with my warrior, he seems to attack faster..but the speed increase seems so low to a warrior cause of a low base attack speed, that maybe i'm just imagining it. Any experience or input from rogues with alp?

[Royce]

The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

Bonus Damage is just your primary attribute's contribution to your damage. Crits are 200% unless otherwise stated (like the 250% lightning skill) I believe.

[Energizeric]

Yes, critical hits are 200% of damage, unless otherwise stated, like in the case of Lightning Strike (assuming you have the upgrade).

[Aeoros]

Finally, someone who is actually doing a decent bit of theorycrafting...
Before, all I saw on these forums was either incorrect statements and flawed logic, or generic statements, which might be helpful for the passing noob, but don't really help the understanding of anything else (On the rogue and general forums anyway, I don't delve as much into the other class' forums)
A few things though..

Using lifethief, I think the attack rate is actually 0.55.... or 5/9 secs? Gives rise to 1.8 attacks/sec, but doesnt really change your number of attacks per min. Would be useful if these figures were released to the public instead of testers putting forward numbers.

I've also heard alot of differing opinions on Bonus Damage.. I was always under the impression that [DMG]=[BONUS DMG]x[BASE DMG], where base dmg is the sum of all the dmg from your equips. From the figures I was chucking around, that seemed to be the case, but my numbers were always off by a tiny fraction... like... up to 2 DMG over the range of 300ish dex. It's not much in the grand scheme of things, but enough to warrant that it's not a rounding error. Possibly dex also adds a tiny tiny fraction to base dmg as well as 2 dex giving 1 bonus dmg? But this is something I have to look into a bit more. The small differences are driving me crazy.

The final thing is that weapon mechanics of specific weapons seem to affect how much dps it actually does. The classic case (for a rogue) is the comparison between a Heartseeker and a Lifethief. After the DPS modification, a Heartseeker has the same damage and DPS as a Lifethief, yet there is a massive difference in actual damage output.. and I'm talking a significant amount... at least 150%. That puts even less weight on the DPS and damage stats altogether, unless it's a comparison between two weapons of the same type.

But yeh, there are alot of hidden stats and factors influencing what we see on the stat page and even more influecing the actual damage output. Fun testing it though =D



Now, forgive me for jumping in because my math and theory may be way off base, but here is how it see it.

Rather than look at DPS, I would look towards total damage output in a minute - which includes damage via skill and auto combined.

So, knowing that everything is based on the Damage stat, factor in an attack speed (which we must derive by taking Damage/DPS). The Bonus Damage is used to calculate what the additional critical damage will be when your attack or skill crits (unless overridden by the skill - such as 250% for Aimed Shot).

So, given the above, which is a gross oversimplification of the actual variables involved (and not to mention that I need to do a lot of testing to verify - I only took a look at a couple of items in my inventory) here is what I calculate:

Lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency Equipped on my Rogue

Damage: 77.3
Bonus Dmg: 181%
DPS: 139.1

Shadow Piercer Damage: 105-131
Noxious Bolt: 105-131
Aimed Shot: 136-170
Shadow Storm Shot: 89-111

Calculated weapon speed: 0.555715 (Damage divided by DPS)
Calculated Damage Fractions of Skills: (Min Fraction = Skill Min Damage/Damage, Max Fraction = Skill Max Damage/Damage)

Shadow Piercer: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Noxious Bolt: 1.358344 - 1.69496
Aimed Shot: 1.759379 - 2.199224
Shadow Storm Shot: 1.151358 - 1.435964

The cooldown times for the skills as follows:

Shadow Piercer: 2
Noxious Bolt: 2
Aimed Shot: 2
Shadow Storm Shot: 5


With all that - not including other variables, which I know are also present, such as poison damage, pet damage, AoE damage, we can calculate the total single target damage output in a minute.

To keep things simple, let's exclude critical damage, because the calculations get a bit more complex as we have to determine the number of attacks per minute for each skill and auto, get the crit percentage add in the Bonus Damage multiplier and calculate the values with crit included.

So, without crit and assuming single target damage here is what I calculate with my Daggers:

Shadow Piercer:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Noxious Bolt:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 3150 (105*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 3930 (131*30)

Aimed Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 30
- Min Damage/minute: 4080 (136*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 5100 (170*30)

Shadow Storm Shot:
- Attacks/minute: 12
- Min Damage/minute: 1068 (89*30)
- Max Damage/minute: 1332 (111*30)

Auto Attack:
- Attacks/minute: ~108 ([Damage/DPS]*60)
- Damage/minute: 8346 (DPS*60)


So, total damage output per minute ranges from 19,794 - 22,638

Unfortunately, I could not get a decent bow that offers more damage than my daggers, but the point is that 42% of your total damage output potential comes from auto attack.

For PvE mobs, I would venture to say that total damage output outweighs your base damage stat. For bosses, and PvP, damage becomes the primary factor of success because you are looking to maximize damage output in a 10-12 second window. In that instance, higher base damage from a good bow becomes more important because your skills are simply a multiplier of your base damage. In the case of Aimed Shot, a +8 damage bow would actually yield +20 damage per critical hit (250%)...so in the course of 12 seconds, aimed shot with a +8 bow would actually deliver up to +120 more damage than a dagger. But in the long run, such as dealing with mobs, total damage output (AKA DPS) would be better as you can take down more targets faster.

Best bet, get a good dagger to deal with mobs, and a good bow for PvP and Boss killing.

[Delirium]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

?

Myself (on my mage) and 1 rogue from my guild do elite jarl in sub-50s easily.. and I've never one time had a public jarl run last over 2 minutes.

I've watched primaeva test his damage theories based on how fast a boss goes down on the forums since AL started, and I've copied/tested those builds on my own as well.. he's completely right. DPS is very important (and yes, so is your actual damage). I constantly spam auto attack on all 3 of my toons (in between skill uses) and my kill time for bosses is noticeably slower when I don't. When I was leveling and had a lower flamestrike, I would use kelvin's gun because I was using all AoE skills in the tombs and I killed much faster because I had higher damage. HOWEVER, as soon as I dropped 2 of those AoE skills for heal and another bossing skill, DPS became the far superior focus. As a mage now, it doesn't really matter as much because the damage on my flamestrike is still as high as any gun and obviously it's DPS is the best for a mage, but on my rogue, AA accounts for much more than 50% of my attacks.. why would I NOT focus on DPS? Anyone who sacrifices 50dps for a weapon that gives you 30 more damage per skill cast is mad unless their build consists of 4 attack skills and no cool-down time.

You guys can theorycraft all you want and assume that you know everything there is to know about the damage mechanics of this game, but I as well as others have actually tested this.. the fact that you're impressed about 1:15 jarl runs only proves it even further. I've personally seen a rogue solo elite jarl in 45 seconds and he wasn't using some high damage daggers.. he was using high DPS daggers.

It's pretty annoying to see some of you dismiss what prima has to say so quickly, especially since he spends so much time personally testing all of this. Not a big deal I guess.. less competition. You go have fun with your higher damage per hit and we'll enjoy killing bosses faster =)

..and I love how you say "gj wasting 2m" or whatever.. like PvE is suddenly going to disappear when PvP comes out? nobody knows how PvP is going to work anyways, and I'm sure there will be new weapons by then anyways.

[Limsi]

I've managed to kill Jarl together with a warrior for an average of 56-1:05 seconds while using ALP, which is a DPS sided weapon. In my opinion, dishing out normal attacks while waiting for skill to cool down really matters.


Invite me Energizeric, let's do several runs and I'll be happy to show ;)

[Energizeric]

I'm not sure why you guys think that I said DPS doesn't matter, but I never said that. Rush was the one who implied that. Yes, I know DPS matters and I agree that the best way to inflict damage is to hit the attack button while your skills are cooling down. I happen to have a very high DPS weapon, the clever flamestrike rod of assault. So yes, I agree.

As far as our time of doing Jarl runs in 1:15, yes I'm sure many can do better. When we did those runs a few days ago I still did not have top gear, nor did I have my clever flamestrike rod of assault yet. Now my DPS is about 40 points higher than it was just a few days ago. I have no idea what Rush's gear was like. But those were the fastest runs I had been in up to that point. Since then I've been on a few runs that were less than 1 minute.

Lastly, the comment about saying you've never even been on a Jarl run that takes longer than 2 minutes, then you've obviously never joined random games. I've been on some runs where Jarl wasn't even engaged yet in 2 minutes...LOL. Those runs where the mobs on the bridge get upset, and half the people die, then when they run back they bring the mobs with them.

[Delirium]

I'm not sure why you guys think that I said DPS doesn't matter, but I never said that. Rush was the one who implied that. Yes, I know DPS matters and I agree that the best way to inflict damage is to hit the attack button while your skills are cooling down. I happen to have a very high DPS weapon, the clever flamestrike rod of assault. So yes, I agree.

As far as our time of doing Jarl runs in 1:15, yes I'm sure many can do better. When we did those runs a few days ago I still did not have top gear, nor did I have my clever flamestrike rod of assault yet. Now my DPS is about 40 points higher than it was just a few days ago. I have no idea what Rush's gear was like. But those were the fastest runs I had been in up to that point. Since then I've been on a few runs that were less than 1 minute.

Lastly, the comment about saying you've never even been on a Jarl run that takes longer than 2 minutes, then you've obviously never joined random games. I've been on some runs where Jarl wasn't even engaged yet in 2 minutes...LOL. Those runs where the mobs on the bridge get upset, and half the people die, then when they run back they bring the mobs with them.

My bad.. I skipped a page or two. I was mainly talking to Rush even though I quoted you first, haha.

As for the random games, probably 75% of my jarl runs are public.. half the time we don't even have a tank, lol. I dunno.. did 50ish runs today, mostly public, and there wasn't a run that took longer than 1:45. I used 150 potions though! I did have to solo everything a couple times (with 3 other people in the zone).

[Royce]

Lastly, the comment about saying you've never even been on a Jarl run that takes longer than 2 minutes, then you've obviously never joined random games. I've been on some runs where Jarl wasn't even engaged yet in 2 minutes...LOL. Those runs where the mobs on the bridge get upset, and half the people die, then when they run back they bring the mobs with them.

I realize you have had poor Jarl luck (based on other threads in this forum ;) ), but not everyone shares your experiences. I play almost exclusively in pugs. If there is more than one warrior, I will often find another game unless everyone is 21, other than that I don't quit (occasionally if people start killing the scrooges I freed instead of letting them follow me to Jarl). Most runs are 0:50 to 1:15 or so. The longest are around 1:45, and those are rare.

[parnasofication]

Well i dont think i atk faster with the 25% speed elixir so i doubt u will atk faster lol , its all in ur mind dude hehe .

aw, too bad then. but i think it should affect attack speed. my imagination must have gone wild. :)

[Rare]

So much modesty in this thread

[Royce]

So skill damage depends on max DAMAGE not DPS?

It's based on damage yes, not DPS.

[Dragonik]

Agreed. While I don't know who prima is, all his post were back up with personal testing and 2nd party verification. He does not come across as someone trying to blow smoke up their own epeen.

1:45 jarl are not impressive at all just for the record. Not horrible, but also noty something to boast about.

Energizeric who is your mage btw? Wondering if.I've ran with you in game.

[primaeva]

Thanks Adam and Dragonik for listening. I think the OP has a valid point for PvP consideration if there existed a weapon with significantly higher damage than DPS, just that the two stats are still too closely interrelated. As for the current metagame, the exorbitant prices on high DPS weapons are, in fact, justified. That's what the point of my posts were.

I can't speculate what PvP is going to be like not having experienced it, but I do think my strategy will be on outlasting rather than bursting targets down. If anything, HP and Armor (and Mana!) are important stats that haven't even entered this discussion. Let's just wait for the good news. :)

[Dragonik]

I can also back you up with the WoW experience. While I understand that the two games aren't related, when you play WoW there is a lot more depth that causes you to think differently. With no experience as to how sts games PvP plays out it's difficult to come up with a realistic scenario. Only time will tell.

Let me also clarify I have not played WoW in a few years so I don't know what's it's like atm, I assume it has been dumbed down quite a bit from.what I've read.

[Energizeric]

Energizeric who is your mage btw? Wondering if.I've ran with you in game.

Same name as my forum name. I only have one character in each game (AL & PL) and I always go by this name, Energizeric. In PL I have a bear by this name.

[Energizeric]

I can't speculate what PvP is going to be like not having experienced it, but I do think my strategy will be on outlasting rather than bursting targets down. If anything, HP and Armor (and Mana!) are important stats that haven't even entered this discussion. Let's just wait for the good news. :)

I'm going to agree with you here. One of the big differences I see so far in AL when compared to PL is in AL the amount of health & mana we have is much much higher, and is proportional to our base stats. So for example, a level 20 player will have double the Health/Mana as a level 10 player. In PL a level 1 player will have 400-600 health/mana (depending on class) and an end game level 76 player will have at most 1000. Health/Mana in PL are not proportional to your base stats and instead you only receive about one extra health or mana point for each STR/INT point. So damage is a much higher percentage of health in PL than in AL. The result is that PvP matches tend to be very quick, especially at end game where 2-3 hits will kill the other player. So it's all about making the right combo and winning in a hurry. I have a feeling PvP in AL will be more of a grind than a quick burst of power.

[Royce]

I'm going to agree with you here. One of the big differences I see so far in AL when compared to PL is in AL the amount of health & mana we have is much much higher, and is proportional to our base stats. So for example, a level 20 player will have double the Health/Mana as a level 10 player. In PL a level 1 player will have 400-600 health/mana (depending on class) and an end game level 76 player will have at most 1000. Health/Mana in PL are not proportional to your base stats and instead you only receive about one extra health or mana point for each STR/INT point. So damage is a much higher percentage of health in PL than in AL. The result is that PvP matches tend to be very quick, especially at end game where 2-3 hits will kill the other player. So it's all about making the right combo and winning in a hurry. I have a feeling PvP in AL will be more of a grind than a quick burst of power.

Beyond that, I think the way they've done damage/armor in AL will make PvP very different from PL. In PL x armor mitigates y damage. There is a threshold that must be overcome before any damage is done, then additional damage behind that is done in full. Small and medium sized hits are ineffective and big hits dominate completely. In AL armor factors into overall damage reduction percentage which means that small hitting, high DPS builds could have a place. Who knows though, it is STS, so maybe it'll be just another nuke fest :p

[CosmoxKramer]

Plus you may be charging skills more for PVP because the charged effects are usually for utility, cc, etc. so there will be less spam time of AA in some skill builds.

[Energizeric]

Actually, in PvP I don't see myself charging skills much at all since for sorcerer skills charging is usually to add AoE effect, and since PvP is usually 1-on-1 probably best to just use skills non-charged.

[primaeva]

I'm going to agree with you here. One of the big differences I see so far in AL when compared to PL is in AL the amount of health & mana we have is much much higher, and is proportional to our base stats. So for example, a level 20 player will have double the Health/Mana as a level 10 player. In PL a level 1 player will have 400-600 health/mana (depending on class) and an end game level 76 player will have at most 1000. Health/Mana in PL are not proportional to your base stats and instead you only receive about one extra health or mana point for each STR/INT point. So damage is a much higher percentage of health in PL than in AL. The result is that PvP matches tend to be very quick, especially at end game where 2-3 hits will kill the other player. So it's all about making the right combo and winning in a hurry. I have a feeling PvP in AL will be more of a grind than a quick burst of power.

Wow. This is a huge bit of useful information for me. Flat armor reduction to % armor reduction has an insane effect on PvP and this definitely makes more builds (as well as the warrior and mage class) more viable. There might be more merit to a full strength build than a full int build, in fact.

The info on health pools is great as well. Thanks for that post!

Lastly, I heard there's different levels to PvP at. What's that about..? Individual level or every five levels or something?

Keep the useful posts coming :)

[primaeva]

Actually, in PvP I don't see myself charging skills much at all since for sorcerer skills charging is usually to add AoE effect, and since PvP is usually 1-on-1 probably best to just use skills non-charged.

Hmm, that's true for most spells but Arcane Shield, for example, and -25% hit on charged FB-- these might actually be vital to your build. Mana from charged Heal might actually make or break a team since I've heard no pots are allowed.

That's what I'm talking about-- the tankier players are, the more important considerations like speccing into int/str are.. and factors like DPS come into play (mana conservation).

Nuke fest PvP is lame because there is no "high-level"-- only who gets into position and gets the crit first. Not much skill in that.

[Limsi]

Hmm, that's true for most spells but Arcane Shield, for example, and -25% hit on charged FB-- these might actually be vital to your build. Mana from charged Heal might actually make or break a team since I've heard no pots are allowed.

That's what I'm talking about-- the tankier players are, the more important considerations like speccing into int/str are.. and factors like DPS come into play (mana conservation).

Nuke fest PvP is lame because there is no "high-level"-- only who gets into position and gets the crit first. Not much skill in that.

I have got to agree with this. True enough good positioning and with the luck of critical would merit an instant kill, but I'd rather see the true skill by dishing out deadly and orchestrated combos. I find it funny for those who boast their "elite, pro, best" status when the fight is characterized by the Nuke fest, just my opinion though! Have a good day!

[Energizeric]

Wow. This is a huge bit of useful information for me. Flat armor reduction to % armor reduction has an insane effect on PvP and this definitely makes more builds (as well as the warrior and mage class) more viable. There might be more merit to a full strength build than a full int build, in fact.

The info on health pools is great as well. Thanks for that post!

Lastly, I heard there's different levels to PvP at. What's that about..? Individual level or every five levels or something?

Keep the useful posts coming :)

In PL dodge has become very important for end game PvP. Warriors (bears) have the highest dodge in PL and dodge is determined by STR and gear (not DEX like in AL), so fully buffed some warriors can reach dodge rates as high as 90%. Another stat in PL of large importance is Hit %, which seems absent in AL. So PvP becomes a contest of Hit % vs Dodge %. Hit % is determined by dex. So Archers/birds (the dex class) have the high hit % and deal out the biggest damage, Wariors/bears have the highest armor and dodge, and they are the tanks, and Enchantress/elfs (the INT class) are the class that deals the highest critical damage hits, and of course they have the highest heal capability too. Potions are not allowed in PvP, and I'm guessing that will carry over to PvP.

As for levels, in PL if a Level 70 player makes the game, then nobody lower than 65 or higher than 75 can join. I would guess this will also carry over to AL.

[DataPunk]

Really guys, not to troll but 2 rogues having an agro epeen contest is no testing. U test by going at with exactly the same equip except for ur weapons.

[GoodSyntax]

@Royce and @Energizeric

Is the 200% crit applicable to skills only (unless overriden by the skill)?

So that would imply that the Bonus Damage % is only for auto-attack crit damage?

If that is the case, then some of the end-game, full Dex rogues that I see running around with 250+% Bonus Damage would have an even greater valuation of DPS vs Damage. If you can crit 250% in auto with a .55 sec dagger and 25+% crit chance (with a pet) why even bother much with Skill damage when 2-4 auto hits are essentially the same as a critted skill (except auto doesn't expend any mana and has no cooldown)?

At this point in my toon development, I only use my Aimed Shot for the 1 in 5 chance that it crits, and Shadow Strike for AoE damage. Noxious Bolt is just something that I throw in on occasion while I get into range and I use Shadow Piercer to land a hit and get out of range when I am soloing a boss. The majority of the damage is done via auto.

@Everyone Else
This is probably the single best AL post in the forum. Trolling, flaming and whining aside, there is a lot of good information and some worthwhile theories and math in here - so TY to all!

[Royce]

Bonus damage is unrelated to Crit. Crit for weapon attacks and skills is 200% unless otherwise specified by a skill. Otherwise, as you say, crit damage increasing skills would already be useless since end game you should have over 250% bonus damage. Bonus damage is just the affect your primary attribute (Dex for rogue for example) has in your damage. I honestly think they'd be better off hiding that stat from the display since it's more confusing than helpful.

[CosmoxKramer]

Bonus Damage impacts your Damage

Crits happen at 200% for all AA or Skills unless you take a skill that increases crit damage by 25/50%.

Your DPS on your Avatar page (not what you do through a fight) is incomplete because it doesn't factor in Crit%/Crit Damage%. So I like to do a side calculation of my own that i call True DPS which takes DPS * (1+ (Crit% *2)) where the 2 is representing 200% crit damage for your AA. I do this because when you look at a weapon "of Assault" vs a weapon "of Force", i can see the true difference in dps.

[CosmoxKramer]

Hmm, that's true for most spells but Arcane Shield, for example, and -25% hit on charged FB-- these might actually be vital to your build. Mana from charged Heal might actually make or break a team since I've heard no pots are allowed.

That's what I'm talking about-- the tankier players are, the more important considerations like speccing into int/str are.. and factors like DPS come into play (mana conservation).

Nuke fest PvP is lame because there is no "high-level"-- only who gets into position and gets the crit first. Not much skill in that.


Thanks Prima. This is what i was thinking especially with higher HP levels for everyone and that armor is a % reduction (probably everyone has 30-60% at a given level cap). So -25% hit chance, charging gale force, a Charged Time Shift for the freeze would be magical for a Sorc vs. Rogue. It may be a lot more like a WoW pvp where you CC, run with a few attacks in between. Not just a nuke fest like someone pointed out PL was

[Energizeric]

Your DPS on your Avatar page (not what you do through a fight) is incomplete because it doesn't factor in Crit%/Crit Damage%. So I like to do a side calculation of my own that i call True DPS which takes DPS * (1+ (Crit% *2)) where the 2 is representing 200% crit damage for your AA. I do this because when you look at a weapon "of Assault" vs a weapon "of Force", i can see the true difference in dps.

Interesting. I was wondering this myself when comparing the clever flamestrike rod of assault with the clever flamestrike rod of force. The rod of force has less dmg but higher crit and also has STR instead of DEX which is more useful for a mage (higher health), so I did consider saving the money and getting the rod of force. What does your calculation say about the difference between those two?

[Yakiniku]

Really guys, not to troll but 2 rogues having an agro epeen contest is no testing. U test by going at with exactly the same equip except for ur weapons.

If it matters, I did a test last week exactly as you described. Same gear, same spec, same everything, just switching out daggers. L21 Bane Knives of Potency versus L20 Mighty Lifethief of Potency (yea, not even an ALP). MLP DPS rating was higher, but Bane Knives damage rating and DEX were significantly higher. I duoed with a warrior so he could spam heal (lol) and we probably did like 5-7 runs with each set of daggers. I didn't do an exact average calculation, but the Bane Knives runs usually ended around 1:15, whereas the MLP runs would end right around the 1:00 mark, or sometimes a few seconds faster.

I'd like to add that the Bane Knives probably didn't get a fair shake since my spec and skill rotation revolve around Shadow Veil and stacked AS crit % to boost normal attack damage. But let's be honest here. Who is going to blow 5-10 mana pots on something like Jarl just to flex their skill-oriented damage? I'll save that, and probably the Bane Knives, for pvp.

I know anecdotal tests like this don't really prove anything though, but just thought I'd throw my results out there since you mentioned it.

Anyway, I have to agree with GoodSyntax. This thread has been very good on information and theories. I'm especially interested in CosmoxKramer's hidden math posts.

[Bless]

I can personally confirm that Rush has awsome damage stats. Him and I did some elite Jarl runs last night, just the 2 of us with no others in the party. And we usually beat him before the clock on our run reached 1:45, and sometimes as soon as 1:15. Normally when I run with a whole party of 4 it takes 2:30-3:00. He chops down the boss faster than most groups are able to. If we had a couple other good players added to the group we could probably beat Jarl in well less than a minute.

Pics or it didn't happen. solo jarl in around 49 seconds, my tab 2 has the hold screenshot so it took some seconds to take screenie. :P

[wvhills]

i'm blinded by science, not dps

[CosmoxKramer]

Interesting. I was wondering this myself when comparing the clever flamestrike rod of assault with the clever flamestrike rod of force. The rod of force has less dmg but higher crit and also has STR instead of DEX which is more useful for a mage (higher health), so I did consider saving the money and getting the rod of force. What does your calculation say about the difference between those two?

a 21 Clever Flamestrike Rod of Force gives me 134.4 Damage, 9.78 Crit, 241.9 DPS, 1944 Health
My True DPS Calculation using Crit gives 289.2
Fireball Average Damage + Crit formula = 217.4
Lightning Avg Damage + Crit = 332.7
Frost Bolt / Time Shift Avg Dam + Crit = 288.7

a 21 Clever Flamestrike Rod of Assault gives me 141 Damage, 8.27% Crit, 253.8 DPS, 1913 Health
My True DPS Calculation using Crit gives 295.8
Fireball Average Damage + Crit formula = 222.3
Lightning Avg Damage + Crit = 340.2
Frost Bolt / Time Shift Avg Dam + Crit = 295.2

So basically the difference between a crit weapon and a Damage weapon isn't too huge. if 5 points of DPS from weapons and 5 from skill damage is worth 2x+ the price for an item, then more power to you.

Also, the difference between a 25 Int, 13 Str, 3 Dam ring and a 25 Int, 6 Str, 1.76% Crit looks like 12.8 DPS, but with crit it is more like 7.4 difference and the skills are only 5.5-8.5 damage delta with crit factored in. I think if you really stacked crit through your gear instead of stacking Damage you could close the gap more. Until you can get to 30% crit though (not talking about 3s of Ribbit) then the +Damage is still better, but not insanely better to where you need cash out a 401k to go buy some plat for each patch

[Royce]

Until you can get to 30% crit though (not talking about 3s of Ribbit) then the +Damage is still better, but not insanely better to where you need cash out a 401k to go buy some plat for each patch

Wait why 30%? Each percent crit should be the same increase in overall DPS whether you're starting from 0% or 99% shouldn't it?

[primaeva]

He's referring to the "breakpoint" where additional damage ceases to do more true DPS than increasing crit, I believe.

[Royce]

He's referring to the "breakpoint" where additional damage ceases to do more true DPS than increasing crit, I believe.

Is there a "breakpoint" in this game though? My math may be off, but from what I understand of damage, crit, and armor in AL, 1% damage should be exactly equal to 1% Crit for overall dps unless you are able to break 100% Crit.

[primaeva]

Is there a "breakpoint" in this game though? My math may be off, but from what I understand of damage, crit, and armor in AL, 1% damage should be exactly equal to 1% Crit for overall dps unless you are able to break 100% Crit.

Well, I'm not sure what math was used to derive the 30% figure, but the reason why the breakpoint exists is because the crit multiplier isn't always 200%.

For example, take base damage 100 with crit multiplier 250%. Attacks per second = 1.

1% DPS = 1 damage.

100% extra DPS = 200 damage

100% crit = 250 damage.

========

To better illustrate:

10% more damage = 110 damage per attack
Take that x 100 attacks (no crits) = flat 11000 damage.

10% crit = 100 damage for 90 attacks = 9000 damage
... plus 250 damage for 10 attacks = 2500 damage.

Add 9000 to 2500 = 11500, which is more than the pure 10% damage.

The breakpoint is actually less than 10% in this case. Why is it 30% in his calculation? Well, because only lightning has 250% multiplier. If all crits had a higher multiplier, you would of course see crit favoured over a flat damage increase.

Hope this explained it! :)

[GoodSyntax]

Just a little more anecdotal evidence...

Recently got a lv 19 Frost Heart of Brutality for comparison against a lv 16 Mighty Lifethief of Potency

While the overall math indicates that the total damage output per minute is slightly higher with the bow, clearing maps took longer due to the decreased DPS. The issue revolves around the fact that hitting a 200 HP mob with 300 damage still kills the mob - but the average kills per second calculation goes up as an overkill is still just a kill.

The secondary side effect that I noticed is that a charged auto attack has some AoE damage, meaning you can damage more mobs per hit than with a bow. This fact more any anything else seems to contribute to the slow down.

Ultimately, I did notice a large improvement when facing bosses as my skills and auto both hit much harder, but for mob clean-up the bow is a hindrance and the daggers would be the preferred weapon.

What would be a huge gameplay improvement for me would be load-outs like all the other Legends games. Equip DPS centric gear for mobs/map clearing and Damage centric gear for Bosses/Mini-Bosses.

I must admit, when I crit Aimed Shot with the bow, the damage is outstanding.

[primaeva]

Actually, dagger AAs need not be charged to hit more than one target. I will investigate this effect tomorrow.

[GoodSyntax]

My rogue only does the spin attack when AA is charged.

Either way, it has a huge impact on map clearing, at least for me.

Also, I can't see the value of a charged bow attack (I've only had the bow for an hour) - perhaps someone has a compelling reason why I should charge my bow's AA.

I'm curious to see what your conclusions will be primaeva.

[Royce]

Well, I'm not sure what math was used to derive the 30% figure, but the reason why the breakpoint exists is because the crit multiplier isn't always 200%.

Ah thanks, I hadn't considered the >200% crit subskills. However, it seems to me that things should still work out to be linear with no "breakpoint". Crit will just be slightly better for overall DPS than a damage increase of the same percentage. For instance say lightning makes up 10% of a sorcerer's damage (just to throw a number out there), if they have the 250% crit subskill, you could essentially look at it as if they crit at 205% always for figuring out overall DPS. That would mean a 1% damage increase would be a 1% overall DPS increase, while a 1% crit increase would be an increase of about 1.05% to overall DPS. I still don't see where a breakpoint could be introduced unless I'm still missing something.

On a related note, almost every damaging skill says +extra damage on crit, but a few don't (time shift for instance). If those skills can't crit and they are a part of your rotation, then that could swing things back in favor of damage over crit for overall DPS. Not sure if they don't actually crit though or if they just have incomplete descriptions, which wouldn't surprise me in a STS game :p

[CosmoxKramer]

i'm questioning if an AA crit is even 200% as you would think. If you go out an test it an AA crit seems more like 150% damage. Only Skills seems to crit at 200% or higher with skill upgrades.

For crit in the calculation you can do DPS * (1+ (Crit% * CritDam%)). Or for skills you can do the same, but it's not really damage per sec because of cooldowns, but you can you took 1000 fireballs, the average damager per fireball would work out to the Avg(min-max skill damage)*(1+(Crit%*CritDam%)).

[CosmoxKramer]

for giggles, i made a little DPS calculator in Excel. it handles 4 offensive spells and adds together your DPS*crit and through a priority system you can set your 4 skills, their damage and critdam% to randomize damage*crit of skills. Add them together and you get the Perfect world DPS. It doesn't have miss%, Boss Dodge%, Armor Reduction %, but you would be comparing apples to apples. The only place it comes into effect is the Accuracy Upgrade for Aimed Shot, De-buffs, etc (all future upgrades). Besides lacking the ability to use de-buff or buff abilities it works fine. I did mention some upgrades i can do, but i need to wait for PVP to come out to get de-buff timers. Some of the other updates can be done like dealing with buffs, but i just put this together in an hour or 2. Also, it's based on 1000 seconds worth of skill damage to calculate your Skill DPS. Obviously most fights aren't that long (besides Bael pre-21) so a shorter window just makes for larger Deviation in DPS. This is to give you the avg DPS over a prolonged period vs. a single target.

If you find bugs when typing in stuff let me know

Download my Google Doc Spreadsheet (in my signature and below) and add in your data into the Orange Cells


<edit>I doesn't work on charging skills either, but I think besides the stun or -hit% charge abilities I don't think it's worth charging for a second because. 10 damage /sec DoT on a boss isn't worth it when spells hit for 200+.

<<edit>> seems that the GCD is different for different spells, so right now this is best for those spells with the very fast GCD, like a Sorc.