End-game balance

[Techno Email]

Please check out my post here for more info. on my take on balancing PL classes:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?77706-Time-has-come-Need-to-re-balance&p=882120&viewfull=1#post882120

TLDR: Balance is an ongoing process for MMOs.

Here's what changes have happened since the above post:
1. Two new classes.
2. Small damage reduction to some weapons throughout the game.
3. Damage increased on Archer's end-game crafted bow.

Stop the record... (Refer to the above link for more info. on the process I step through next.)

1. These changes have had some time to bake.

2. Here's my observation:
- Archer's do very high damage with full end-game gear. :tyrannosaurus:
- Rhinos feel less powerful than old classes in end-game PVP. :concern:
- DANG we deal a lot of damage in the end-game. :hororr:

3. Here's my evaluation:

Archer's do very high damage with full end-game gear
I think this is due to the combination of the itemset bonus changes and the crafted end-game bow damage changes. Before these changes were made people were unhappy with the Archer PVE experience. I felt the end-game PVE experience was too difficult for Enchantresses and Archers, so I made the changes mentioned above. I think it's better now. :encouragement: Please read the post linked above for my take on balancing end-game PVE and PVP. I understand that the change has also made Archer's uber powerful in PVP. I also think that Enchantresses are uber powerful in PVP, and so are Warriors. :distant: I agree that being one-hit sucks, and I'll speak more to that. :eagerness:

Rhinos feel less powerful than old classes in end-game PVP
Valiant rings can make or break a fight. :hypnotysed: The new classes can not achieve this bonus until they obtain two elite level cap items. End game characters who do not have any valiant rings, don't have this bonus. [The End.] New classes can't get valiant rings yet, but they can get elite level cap items to help build their path to victory!! :pirate: Is reaching the elite level cap not your jam? :hopelessness: No worries!! :chuncky: Our internal tests showed the Rhino to be pretty survivable in end-game PVE content, so farm away my single-horned animal friends! :applause:

DANG we deal a lot of damage in the end-game
Being one-hit sucks. :ambivalence:

4. Here are the actions I'd like to take:
- I'd like to increase the defensive stats on the legendary gear sets in the next expansion, and see how it plays out in both PVE and PVP gameplay. :o
- If you have a Rhino or Fox and you wish you had a valiant ring, :worked_till_5am: I'd suggest working towards the elite level cap. :victorious:

If this list of actions seems short, please refer to the above link for more info. on why. :02.47-tranquillity:

:love_heart::love_heart::love_heart::love_heart::l ove_heart::love_heart::love_heart::love_heart::lov e_heart::love_heart::love_heart::love_heart::love_ heart::love_heart:

[Noodleleg]

-_-... Techno, talk to some experienced PvPers... A ring won't do much if classes are underpowered naturally... Etc....

[Jcyee]

hmm... not sure what to think about this but thanks for responding to some of our feedback :)

[Nihiliste]

Right now...

I think you should focus on The mages, bears, and birds and then move on to the rhino's and foxes. I don't think it was even a good idea to bring two new classes with the amount of imbalancement end-game PvP has. So, what you should do, I think ALL SKILL LEVELS should be reduced BACK to level 6. Having skill levels at 9 is ridiculous and was a bad move in the first place. Bears now can hold 95+ dodge, and their skill damage is very high. Like I said, skill levels NEED to go back to 6, permanantly to prevent other riots/imbalancement. Int mages are ultra squishy now. They don't stand a chance vs. an overpowered bear and ofcourse the overpowered bird. Also, what happened to staff mages? They are suppose to be more dominant than wand mages. Now birds...where do I start. Birds now can one shot any class they wish with their what, 547 blast? Something like that? They dodged nearly EVERY SKILL with their ridiculous dodge. I sometimes have to use my skills TWICE, just to kill one bird. Instead of increasing their damage...how about increasing their HP some more and reducing what is actually needed to be reduced?


-My feedback.

Edit: You should also look at Reun's post in Rushorgtfo's thread called "Need a developers input".

[Shilooo]

Enchantresses are über powerfull in end game pvp? 9/10 are pallys! This is because it takes two shots from a bird to be killed, or one beckon stomp combo to run your mana dry from a bear. Just my two cents. Thanks for working on it tho!

[Nihiliste]

Left that out. Mages are uber weak* in PvP, like Shil said, the majority of end-game mages are SADLY pallies.

[Azataso]

Oh gosh...the amount of smileys are overwhelming. :banana:

[TEOKILLO]

1. Increase defence
2. Increase health
3. Reduce dodge (for str)
4. Lower skills to rank 7
5. Lower scythe damage
6. Everyone's happy:D

[AbsolutePally]

Increase health in pvp. 5HP per every 5 levels could go a long way. Or maybe mages get 4 mana 1 HP per every 5 lvls, bears 5 HP, birds 4 HP 1 mana.
simple solution is grant more HP to all classes when in the arena. So pve isn't affected bh reductions/increases to other stats.

Dmg is too crazy we are getting killed 3x over! Mages do 600+ drain dmg 500 fire 400 light. Birds dodge a lot at times, so skill ( being faster w better range is hardly a factor. I'm seeing me get 3/4 shots off but dying to their 2 because they simply dodged 2 and I didn't.

[Deathofan]

Can you implement something like arcane. Each attribute gives health pool, it kinda goes like this str:10hp int:5hp dex:3hp but it could be implemented by a little bit less and gradually increase armor and return skill level to 7.

[Otukura]

take notes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11f_3wDV0R8


gw2 really did pvp right

[Otukura]

Increase health in pvp. 5HP per every 5 levels could go a long way. Or maybe mages get 4 mana 1 HP per every 5 lvls, bears 5 HP, birds 4 HP 1 mana.
simple solution is grant more HP to all classes when in the arena. So pve isn't affected bh reductions/increases to other stats.

there is a valid point here, the difference in total hp from level 1 to cap is really pretty small.

[XghostzX]

Hey Techno -

I've been part of PvP since day 1, and I'm very familiar with stats (as well as SEVERAL other players. I'd love to come up with a list of players that would love to help out that are also experienced and familiar with many PvP levels).

I highly recommend that you try to find a bunch of players to gather up and discuss stats. Your dedication and responses to the community mean a lot to us, but as Noodleleg mentioned above, if a class is significantly underpowered, rings will not be the solution to the problem. We need to stop avoiding the prime issue with balancing classes and items by simply adding stats, because in reality (or I guess you can say 'virtually'), the legitimate act of balancing stats is what makes the difference.

I just think that this is the most reasonable solution... I mean after all, we're the ones playing your game all the time, in it's real action! (Not just testing).

[MightyMicah]

I'm not sure how everything will turn out, but I tell you, Techno Email, I just fell in love with you. You've gotta be the nicest dev there is with all those emotes in your post! Hahaha :) I am sincerely glad to see that you have identified the problem and are working toward solving it. That's a step in the right direction for sure!

[Yich]

take notes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11f_3wDV0R8


gw2 really did pvp right

Been wanting this for awhile... Want it more now...

[Otukura]

Been wanting this for awhile... Want it more now...

the video i linked is lowskill actually

didn't watch it until after i posted, just copied the link off the gw2 forums

[McBain]

Regarding point #1 about archers' high damage...that's the way it's supposed to be IMO. The whole modus operandi of being a bird is that you sacrifice some survivability to be a damage dealing machine. If archers didn't deal very high amounts of damage, there wouldn't be any reciprocity. It's a poetic balance: the most dangerous class is also the squishiest. So, in short, bumping the damage on birds' endgame gear is change I agree with.

Regarding PvP stuff....well I don't do PvP, so obviously this is no expert opinion, but common sense tells me that balancing PvP is probably close to impossible when you have valiant rings, dragon rings, and whatnot thrown into the mix. You said it yourself: a ring can make or break a fight. The question is: do you want PvP to be about rings? Or do you want it to be about strategy and skill? Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you want it to be about skill. That being the case, a suggestion I would make is that rings in general should be made inactive in PvP arenas.

[AbsolutePally]

I'm happy that sts is recognizing pvp is an important part of their fanbase/revenue. We are small but we spend a lot of money, I don't know any serious pvper that hasn't spent over 200 dollars in an app. We cap first since 50? The kist of ppl who capped for the egg includes a majority or pvpers. That cost $, I know i capped two that weekend.
I've been playing on my bird again and I'm having fun again. Just so much dodge at times.

Two simple solutions coukd be class specific gear in pvp (so a pvp arena loadout would work great)
Or increase health mana per char every 5 levels or cap. More str more int more dex attribute points only increase damage at a rate the HP can't keep up with. Or maybe int dex also increase HP too, not JUST str points. Or int not just mana. We just can't survive 600+ drains.

More health.

Also get rid of "absorbed".!!! It's op. No other class can negate an entire combo like that, no skill required. When I perform my cruel.blast it says "absorbed" and it's like nothing happened. And bird goes bye bye.

[Flawless]

I couldn't agree less on the absorb part.

[Fusionstrike]

A lot of people are focusing on PvP, which makes sense because that's the place to most clearly see the difference between classes: when they fight each other. However, I'd like to put in a reminder that PvE needs some attention as well. The rhino is woefully underpowered in damage. I have a capped rhino who is struggling to keep up with a 50ish mage or bird when going back to pick up some AO quests I skipped. It's not the lack of an elite ring that's causing the problem. The class is truly and severely underpowered.

Another part of rhino that needs some serious consideration is the party buffs. The whole point of a paladin class is to support and enhance the party, right? Well you had this great idea to have both an offensive and defensive party buff. However, each is so completely underpowered as to be useless to the party. Maxed vital force gives +36 damage, which is less than 10% for any decent endgamer...in other words, round-off error. Same with brute force, which adds 5 armor. (At least that's where I stopped raising it at 6 points, since the next is still +5 i.e. no better). That's about 2-3% boost to average endgame armor. Again, round-off error. These skills provide decent self-buff, so they aren't a total loss, but I guess I was just expecting to be more of a boon to a party. Instead I end up as just a middling tank and another source of rev when all mages go down. It's pretty disappointing.

And as long as I'm here, what's with the ultra-wimpy damage per second on the skills? Summon does -18 H/s for 5 seconds, which is a max of 90 damage total, but only to a completely unarmored foe. Likewise, rhino might does -9 H/s for 3 seconds. That's a whopping 27! damage if the target's completely naked. I mean, maybe these damage amounts make a difference in the fist 20 levels, but they don't even come close to registering against real foes.

I'm glad you guys went to the trouble to make new classes and skills and all, but really some of these fail just on paper. You don't have to do a lot of experiments or "wait for the data to come in" to see that the things I mentioned above are an outright failure in their basic design. You really need to go back the drawing board and either beef up rhino damage output or really crank up their ability to buff the party. Right now it can't fight and it can't help the party in any meaningful way. It's a class stuck in no-man's land.

[Waug]

First off, increase the damage of bow was a good decision, though it's debatable that we need 100k extra xp to get that, actually every 2h weapon should be more powerful to compete shield and 1h.

My answer from another thread that elite bow being op -

Let me answer your question partially -

If you've noticed, every elite weapon (dex, int, str) is op and these are 2H at the same time each and every item. Now str and int classess aren't used to 2H weapons in general but birds are, and they have grown up using 2H weapons in general, and it's also a fact that they're bit more optimize to do so.

Tbh, 2H weapons meant to deliver way much damage as you taking the risk of being fragile, and I think it's a step to balance classes.

One shot kill sucks true, and your decision to make defense more powerfull shall obviously work but -

1>Dodge should be more dependent on opponent's hit% which has not been the case since hit % got saturated ages ago, if not possible simply nerf cuz its good defence at pve but bad impact on pvp already str doing more than 6 dodge per 10 hit.

2> Increasing hp significantly may cause another problems like bears and mages being too op, but bit change is okay, specially in an appropriate way, example, who get max advantage from it get less hp.

3> Scope is here - armor should be increased in an appropriate way. it should do the trick, automatically per hit damage shall be reduced significantly. Simply it has nearly same effect as more hp.

[Waug]

-_-... Techno, talk to some experienced PvPers... A ring won't do much if classes are underpowered naturally... Etc....




Hey Techno -

I'd love to come up with a list of players that would love to help out that are also experienced and familiar with many PvP levels).

I highly recommend that you try to find a bunch of players to gather up and discuss stats.

Funny, forum is the best place to discuss thing but yes, there's a good idea if devs wanna test something as they're not experienced in pvp but they have full knowledge of game mechanics. They should invite few active well experienced pvp-ers from all the classes and let them fight and devs should watch that what's happening and what's the core problem.

[Bous]

Make the damage in PvP like half of what can be done in pve. :P.

[nobounds]

heres my 2 cents
22726

[dudetus]

heres my 2 cents
22726

Agreed with ur point

[Noodleleg]

heres my 2 cents
22726

awmg so shinyyy!!! Must haz!!! I bai eet fur 2 plat?

[MightyMicah]

heres my 2 cents
22726

In God we trust? Sounds good to me :D

[GrammerPatrol]

Hey techno email can you make uncrafted sets no so underpowered then crafted sets I could never afford crafted sets Ive been playing since fang and im still not rich. And can you make it to where uncrafted sets dont cost over 1million gold to buy. Right now im still in half humania gear and 1 piece of new gear. Last cap was awseome because I was able to hang with the crafted people but I cant anymore cant even get uncrafted set

[tHelonestud]

Rhinos have the most minimal critical buff possible that is why I believe the absolutely suck, bears have FAR to big of a dmg buff
There is WAY too much dodge all around. It's not even pvp now it's like player versus luck. I mean seriously how is a 45 or 48 dodge buff supposed to make pvp better. I realized you want pve balanced as well.
But as one dev said during the sewers: they focused to make it balanced pvp-wise, which I believe they did an ideal job at, they said the players came across as an underdog in pve, which I think players, at least back then before elixirs governing everything, found a good challenge. And even then it wasn't impossible. I feel like the maps since Nuri's were designed for elixir users, which made them unbalanced for pve with normal players.
My two cents...

[Techno Email]

Thanks for all of your responses and constructive feedback guys! :) There are some bigger nobs that we can turn to make bigger changes (as described in the thread I linked from my original post). These are big knobs though, that affect the entire game. Turning this big knob may fix end-game PVP but it would break PVE balance for levels ~50 and below. I really appreciate the very specific, concise and actionable feedback you guys are providing. That kind of feedback is invaluable to us. Oh, and BTW, when I say Enchantresses are extremely powerful - don't worry, my head is not in the sand - I'm referring to Enchantresses decked out in Strength gear (i.e. Pallies).

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out. Feedback needs to be actionable for me to make a change. If it is specific and concise, the correct solution is more clear. For example, if you say, "PVP is dead!" the solution is not particularly clear. There are a ton of great examples of constructive feedback on this thread, so to not show favoritism, I'll make up my own. If you say, "All classes need to be more survivable in end-game PVP. Health for all classes should be doubled. Armor for all classes should be 50% higher. Strength stats should add 50% less dodge." I can do a lot with feedback like that, especially if several of you give the same feedback, or concur on particular points.

That being said, here are some actionable items I pulled from your feedback here (and a few other related other threads). Please let me know if you agree or disagree with these points, and please offer your opinion on the questions below if you are so inclined. :)

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)
2. Ranger evade buff should last longer.
- How much longer? (Ex. It should be 7 seconds long, but have a longer cooldown.)
3. End game characters need more health.
- How much more health? (Ex. Twice as much Health.)
4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)

Obviously these aren't the only actionable items worth discussing. There are a lot of factors that go into what we do or do not change. The items I listed up here are some of the less complex (and thus less risky) solutions - well, except for the 5th one. :P That one is what I would consider a "big knob." But still it's an interesting discussion item. :D

[dudetus]

Thanks for all of your responses and constructive feedback guys! :) There are some bigger nobs that we can turn to make bigger changes (as described in the thread I linked from my original post). These are big knobs though, that affect the entire game. Turning this big knob may fix end-game PVP but it would break PVE balance for levels ~50 and below. I really appreciate the very specific, concise and actionable feedback you guys are providing. That kind of feedback is invaluable to us. Oh, and BTW, when I say Enchantresses are extremely powerful - don't worry, my head is not in the sand - I'm referring to Enchantresses decked out in Strength gear (i.e. Pallies).

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out. Feedback needs to be actionable for me to make a change. If it is specific and concise, the correct solution is more clear. For example, if you say, "PVP is dead!" the solution is not particularly clear. There are a ton of great examples of constructive feedback on this thread, so to not show favoritism, I'll make up my own. If you say, "All classes need to be more survivable in end-game PVP. Health for all classes should be doubled. Armor for all classes should be 50% higher. Strength stats should add 50% less dodge." I can do a lot with feedback like that, especially if several of you give the same feedback, or concur on particular points.

That being said, here are some actionable items I pulled from your feedback here (and a few other related other threads). Please let me know if you agree or disagree with these points, and please offer your opinion on the questions below if you are so inclined. :)

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)
2. Ranger evade buff should last longer.
- How much longer? (Ex. It should be 7 seconds long, but have a longer cooldown.)
3. End game characters need more health.
- How much more health? (Ex. Twice as much Health.)
4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)

Obviously these aren't the only actionable items worth discussing. There are a lot of factors that go into what we do or do not change. The items I listed up here are some of the less complex (and thus less risky) solutions - well, except for the 5th one. :P That one is what I would consider a "big knob." But still it's an interesting discussion item. :D

I agree with u on those points. But the main factor which spoils end game PvP are the ridicilously overpowered buffs. Birds' Focus and Evasion give 45 crit and 45 dodge for 20 seconds. I have been playing quite a bit of MMO games and the highest long crit or evasion buffs I can remember are around 10, on glass cannon characters. The increased health pool and armor would be an awesome addition and the 50% adding sounds just perfect, but if the buffs aren't nerfed, it's still useless.

[Deathofan]

Lv7 skills were perfect, maybe nerf the dodge buffs and increase the rhino's party buffs. 50% more hp is perfect if you also apply the 50% more armor.

[AbsolutePally]

Regarding health. Let's double what the attributes already have. For example having 300 total str (w gear) gives 150 HP, what if it gave 300. Then armor could stay as is, and the damage. But reduce the 9 back to 7 for things like buffs.
And same with mana- that shield gets taken away so quickly, mages need a much larger shield to even survive and use skills. So double what int gives to the mana pool.
Then make it so dex and int ALSO give health, but at a rate reduced. Say mages get it at 30% birds 50%. So if the mage has 300 total w gear int that gives the mage 100 extra health AND 300 extra mana pool. If the bird has 300 dex points that's 150 extra HP. And of course adding str say just 40 would further increase HP to 40 on all classes.
Also boost the amount of stats those attributes give to the other stats (dodge is fine and may need to be toned down so a simple reduction in skill level would suffice.) Meaning using str on a non str class is fairly useless (other than to equip gear) It only gives around a handful of armor a few dodge points and a small health pool. So instead of boosting armor on gear just make it so all those attribute points we get are actually.usefull..
There's not a huge difference between a gearless level 50 and a gearless 76 in terms of stat points.

1. Increase health and mana pools by utilizing a system already in place.
2. Have a buff cap limit. 7 for buffs (bom, bov, evade, taunt, focus, etc) rest can be 9.

Two other quick solutions: make taunt not stack. If devs don't know this The buff taunt doubles and can be kept up indefinitely. AND get rid of Absorbed. It negates an entire combo automatically.

[Gaunab]

make taunt not stack. If devs don't know this The buff taunt doubles and can be kept up indefinitely. AND get rid of Absorbed. It negates an entire combo automatically.

Without their dodge bears would get one-comboed every time by birds... Yeah damage and dodge are out of control but they cant tweak one without changing the other one respectively.
Also, why would you cruel blast a shielded mage anyways? just lead with a blast. duh :p They are weak enough atm.

[GELLIO77]

Thanks for all of your responses and constructive feedback guys! :) There are some bigger nobs that we can turn to make bigger changes (as described in the thread I linked from my original post). These are big knobs though, that affect the entire game. Turning this big knob may fix end-game PVP but it would break PVE balance for levels ~50 and below. I really appreciate the very specific, concise and actionable feedback you guys are providing. That kind of feedback is invaluable to us. Oh, and BTW, when I say Enchantresses are extremely powerful - don't worry, my head is not in the sand - I'm referring to Enchantresses decked out in Strength gear (i.e. Pallies).

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out. Feedback needs to be actionable for me to make a change. If it is specific and concise, the correct solution is more clear. For example, if you say, "PVP is dead!" the solution is not particularly clear. There are a ton of great examples of constructive feedback on this thread, so to not show favoritism, I'll make up my own. If you say, "All classes need to be more survivable in end-game PVP. Health for all classes should be doubled. Armor for all classes should be 50% higher. Strength stats should add 50% less dodge." I can do a lot with feedback like that, especially if several of you give the same feedback, or concur on particular points.

That being said, here are some actionable items I pulled from your feedback here (and a few other related other threads). Please let me know if you agree or disagree with these points, and please offer your opinion on the questions below if you are so inclined. :)

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)
2. Ranger evade buff should last longer.
- How much longer? (Ex. It should be 7 seconds long, but have a longer cooldown.)
3. End game characters need more health.
- How much more health? (Ex. Twice as much Health.)
4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)

Obviously these aren't the only actionable items worth discussing. There are a lot of factors that go into what we do or do not change. The items I listed up here are some of the less complex (and thus less risky) solutions - well, except for the 5th one. :P That one is what I would consider a "big knob." But still it's an interesting discussion item. :D

granted you may not be experienced in pvp but to really find out the problem you should try playing it on every class. see all their strengths and weaknesses.

as we've discussed the rhino is kinda crappy, dodge is now what is relied on to win and health is way to low.

i dont pvp endgame but 66 mages still get squished, and an angel pally is just crap.

also on your points 3-4 health needs to be increased to the point where mages dont get one shotted by birds and bear or tone down skill damage to that point. point four is similar to point 3, we need enough armour so that pvp is a game of skill and not crit or dodge, also decrease mana regen on str gear. bears (who str is meant for) dont need a lot of ms.

[Chickenrunnn]

Ok Ok.. Another pvp balancing thread :) awesome ! I'm gonna be able to express myself :)!

First, click there for a post I had made about suggestions for pvp and ctf (at the of it)


Hello everyone :)

This is the thread I was waiting for for ages :D! I'm gonna speak for a long time...

___________________________

1. What advantages does your dual-spec. build out offer?

So, I've tested nearly all lvls :).. Here are my thoguhts :
lvl16 : this lvl is kinda balanced, even if dex bears using forgotten bow nearly own everyone. (Full DEX)
lvl26 : mage with forgotten bow (INT/DEX or FULL DEX) hits 350, and birds dodge all hitting the same.. Birds dodge bear,s pull,, they just stay 10m far, and auto kill...
lvl30 : Mages using mana shield cannot be killed. (INT:DEX builts, or full dex using forgotten and kiting)
vl35 : everyone can kill everyone.. bird (FULL DEX) owns, Mage (INT/DEX) using forgotten also, and good bears cannot b killed.
lvl40 : not many people there ^^.. there are more lvl37, and birds mages with forgotten r good. Bear (INT/DEX/STR) are VERY VERY good O.O)
lvl45 : not much people there too :/.. My bird lvl45 full dex cannot be killed :)
lvl50 : not many people there also xD.. Mages full int using death set, or bird full dex using death set are very good
lvl55 : I've just started it yesterday, so I cannot speak much about it :).. Seems to be nice.
lvl75 : I haven't lvl up my bird yet.. I'm sure it will b awesome with new crafted gear.. :P

________________________________

2. Is this spec. particularly viable at certain level ranges?

Yeah lol.. In all lower lvls, you cannot not have a forgotten bow.. you'd die in the minute

________________________________

3. Is the spec. more advantageous in PVP or PVE game types?

In pvp..
in lower levels :
for birds, mages, bears, Dex is more advantageous.. Give HIT%, Damage, dodge.
for mages, int and dex are more advantageous
for bears, full dex is more advantageous..

in higher levels

full dex for birds, Str dex for bears, full int or int dex for mages..

________________________________

4. Which abilities do you invest most in with this spec.?

Mages :

Blessings, drain fire light..

Birds :

break, blind, focus, evasion, blast

Bears :

Reckon stomp to make people fly xD..
jk :) Reckon, iron, rage, SmS

________________________________

5. What type of gear makes this spec. more viable?
- Does the gear tend to have Str, Dex, or Int stat requirements?

Yeah : forgotten bows lol :).. I've purchased one for each of my chars x)
Pumpkin chunkers has become good too for range :).. but they have less DPS than forgotten..

- Do you prefer defensive or damage stat's on this character's gear?

With the forgotten, damage style is the way to be :(

Extra Suggestions ^^

In CtF, there is something called "spawning"..

The opposite team wait for you in your own spawning place, generally they are 3 to be sure you can't survive, and kill u before you could do anything when you sawn.
This is REALLY boring and lame, and it makes me mad each time.. Something NEEDS to be done about that...

So I thought.. I wondered for days of ways that would stop spawning, avoiding farming kills, and many argues because that...

Here is a list of solution which could be done to STOP the spawning issue :


1ST SOLUTION : The Invisible Wall.

Make like an invisible wall, in front of each spawning place, which would compel the other team's player yo
enter into your room.
This invisible wall would stop any guys who have flags, to avoid the flag holder to hide into his own spawning place..

2ND SOLUTION : The Spawning Immunity (Patsoe Idea)

It shouldn't be hard to be made since it already exists in pve for plats..

When you spawn, you would get 3-4 Seconds of immunity which would avoid you to die spawned.

3RD SOLUTION : The Immunity Room

You would be invincible into your spawning room, but once you have left the room, you cannot be invincible anymore until you spawn again into your room.

_________________________

In PvP this time, there is a fashion those days.. A lame, bad, and sad fashion which is rushing..

You know.. Rushing.. Let me tell you a story :)

______

Once upon a time, in a far away country called Alterra, a lil' nice lovely mage was running to Forest manor, to have a wave to his lover, the wonderfully ugly elf queen..
He had bought mother's day flowers to go and ask elf queen to be his wife..
Suddently, a big flash.. He couldn't understand what happened, and he will never have the chance to declaration of love : he was dead..

No, it's not a truck or a car which hitted him, but a group of rushers, thirsting for fresh blood, easy kills, to get their stats better..
He couldn't feel the puke, of the murederers, on him, since he was dead, but his lil' frail corpse was lying there, on the floor..
_______

Hey!! You've just been witness of a rushing crime!! Why don't you report it??
Some rushers said me "It's funny to rush", "it's the way pvp should be" , and "don't pvp if you don't rush"..

Afterwards, when I kill rushers, they call their guild to team me to be sure not to die.. So brave..
But when we start teaming them, there they become lame.. They insult and rage quite, but they are happy of the kills they got from rushing..

______

Do you find this normal?
Before, they were no rushes. People were nice, waiting their turn, and not rushing everyone just for the "so funny pleasure" of rushing...
It is pathetic, sad, evil, mean, selfish, and not funny at all -.-..

So I thought to some solutions to stop it..

1st Solution :

Make a map OFFICIALLY for rushers and another for the people who don't wanna get rushed.. They could rush theirselves, and everyone would be happy..

2nd Solution :

Maybe in the "no rushing map", make a system where you click on the player to ask him in fight.. Until the other didn't accept the fight by clicking on "yes", the other isn't able to kill him..
This would ruin rushers strategies which is running to the guy, buff damage, and kill with 2 skills and 1 auto..

____________________

Another suggestion that I had made a long time ago improve pvp training by 100 :D Here it is :) ((Here) (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?56571-PvP-Training-Room-THE-pvp-training-revolution-idea!&highlight=training+room)

Map Attributes :

It would be a map called "PvP Training Day !"

Kills and the death wouldn't count first of all ==> It would permit to try combos, without having to give a free after the opponent's death, and then, avoid killing PvP K/D..

Secondly, all LvLs could be training together, a lvl5 with a lvl66 for example, who could teach him the basics

Thirdly, you could access it threw guild hall tiers 3.


____________________________________


Here it is :)

I hope I wasn't too long :/..

If more ideas come out to my mind, I'll edit the post :D

Thanks for taking in consideration what I said :banana:

Have a good day ^^!!

______________________



Secondly,I'm gonna be speaking about what should be done in pvp in end game to make the game play WAY more funny than it is now. (I'll make a lil' list :) I love lists :,D)

First of all, increase armor of birds and mages by 30%.. It is beeing boring to see 710 hits from mages, 604 from birds and even 496 from pull of a savage bear.
or lower damage.. PvP needs damage hit 300 crtitical MAX, and not 710 headshots
or increase birds and mage hp by 30% to let them have a chance to get a decent fight.
Lower dodge : birds and bears now have around 70-100% dodge..
LOWER elite rings powers in pvp and ctf!!!!
(I'll quote myself.. again.. because I don't feel like retelling all :), it explains concretly powers of vanities.)



- Elite ring. (3 pieces + black dragon set = 3 str, 3 dex, 3 int, 5 dodge, 2 hit, 67HP!!, 1hp/s, 10 mana, 1M/s 10 damage, 10 armor)
- Founder helm : 5 damage 10 armor!
- Op phoenix bow !! (comparated to the crafted swift bow, it adds 3 critical, 1 dodge, 10 damage, 12 dps, 20 armor!!!!!!)
- 5 class point + 1 skill point

During last cap, Elite sea bow was only adding 2 damage, 2 dps comparated to the crafted phantom bow.. Why such a BIG DIFFERENCE??

Now, "elite" players, with "elite" gear, using those 3 things can be having an ENORMOUS advantage comparated to the players who don't have any of them.

Why don't you do anything about that? Why don't you disable/lower vanities overpower in PvP CtF which should be based on skils of the player, and not based on the extra "elite" gear he is wearing.

Look in sewer times, everything was fine, and players were having good kdr, according to their skills, and not to their great extra gears. :(.. And all was fine.

I hope my voice will be heard, and please, don't say I tell this because I don't have any of those. It is a fact, vanities are extremly advantageous in PvP/CtF.

___________


Techno, I have a question, which could be a suggestion, but I think you will never make it.. Unfortunately..

Why couldn't you make 2xp won per player killed or item or gold like 5g like it no one want to farm it? Look at those advantages :

Firstly, it would permit to people (like me -.-) who find that farming zombies repeateadly in dungeons is extremly boring, to get xp, some noobs items, and a lil' gold, just to reward them for playing hardcore pvp.
There would be way more pvpers/ctfers, because I know many people who don't like pve, but who play it just to get some gold.. Why wouldn't be possible to put that in cf/pvp?
Of course, the amount of xp won won't be huge : it would permit just to get a little experience point by pvping, but not enough to cap, so that, it still will be a need to go to pve and use trashers to get the necessary amount of xp to cap. But it would at least make us feel we don't loose our time in pvp/ctf, because we would win something by doing hard things.


Could you tell us what could be possible to be done to give pvp and ctf their old golden ages.

______________

Sorry if I have been a bit long, but I think long posts are necessary to make things more awesome as they are already :)!!

Have a nice day !

[Fusionstrike]

Great feedback on the Rhino, guys! We put it out there and I've been reading the forums to try to get a sense of how they're playing out.

<snip>

1. Stats on the Rhinos' "force" party buffs should be increased.
- By how much? (Ex. Force buffs should be 50% better at Rank 6, and 25% better at Rank 9.)


Since it looks like you drew on my rhino comments, I'll add my opinion. How much better should force buffs be? Well, I don't think I know enough to say "make it x% better!" but I can say that it's only going to make a difference if the party can "feel" that something is better. That is, with vital force on, the party should notice "hey we're really dishing out the damage here!" What would that take? I don't know exactly, but it's probably best expressed as a percentage difference over "normal" output. What's noticeable? Well anything 10% or less isn't going to register, so probably something around 25% or so is going to be "felt". Now all you have to do is figure out how much better it has to be to make the party do that percentage better, and at what rank it does so, and how long it should stay on. (That's why they pay you the big bucks.)

Ditto on defensive force buff: it has to be enough better to register, so probably like 25% better damage absorption. Whether that's implemented in better armor, better dodge, higher H/s, or some combination is what you're going to have to figure out. (See big bucks comment above.)

This is my first reaction without a huge amount of thought. There are other aspects of rhino that need some tweaking as well (as I pointed out). I'll do more noodling on the rhino problem when I have time.

[tHelonestud]

Tanking should be armour/health based rather than dodge based
Skill are too extreme now, like 60 hit debuff is kinda ridculous, make skills do more variety instead of just magnifying what they do already like add a health regen buff to evade, a health buff to taunt, have rage increase movent speed a bit rather than a 180 dmg buff essentially(considering the crit), throw a crit debuff into hellscream and blind, put some regen debuffs into root

[XXTHEEAGLEXX]

I agree with Chilenrun and think those things r way too op.
I also think we nd more Health and armour.
But dodge is okay.
Health can be increased by 150%
Which will require more skill and a Longer combo for birds

[Renegade]

A more logical approach would be to not allow auto attack to be triggered automatically by using 1 skill. This would be a less "riskier" change that I think would change pvp a bit. This would mainly make birds a little less OP. It might seem like a small worthless change, but since I solely pvp on a bird I can for sure tell you that most bird fights end in "2 shots". Really though it is only 1 shot but since auto is triggered automatically, this makes it so birds just need to use 1 skill and still hit auto. If players had to turn on auto manually like it used to be, then it sure would tone down most birds quite a bit. Because most birds don't have the speed to shoot out several skills. They depend on that auto attack triggering on its own. It should be taken out of pvp and the old way brought back. Auto attack required to be turned on manually. It should be kept in pve though, because I am sure it makes it easier for the newer players and is very useful. But from the pvp standpoint, players know what they're doing. So yeah, in closing auto attack should not be triggered automatically by using 1 skill, it should be turned on by the player manually. Only in pvp though.

[Deathofan]

A more logical approach would be to not allow auto attack to be triggered automatically by using 1 skill. This would be a less "riskier" change that I think would change pvp a bit. This would mainly make birds a little less OP. It might seem like a small worthless change, but since I solely pvp on a bird I can for sure tell you that most bird fights end in "2 shots". Really though it is only 1 shot but since auto is triggered automatically, this makes it so birds just need to use 1 skill and still hit auto. If players had to turn on auto manually like it used to be, then it sure would tone down most birds quite a bit. Because most birds don't have the speed to shoot out several skills. They depend on that auto attack triggering on its own. It should be taken out of pvp and the old way brought back. Auto attack required to be turned on manually. It should be kept in pve though, because I am sure it makes it easier for the newer players and is very useful. But from the pvp standpoint, players know what they're doing. So yeah, in closing auto attack should not be triggered automatically by using 1 skill, it should be turned on by the player manually. Only in pvp though.
that was the only thing that could make a bird win against a mage. blast to break shield then auto and blind repulse (all in less than a sec), now I think auto hits first when I press blast and it feels worse than before. I agree with auto beign returned as it was before.

[tHelonestud]

Id say give bears like 400 health more
And 200 dmg less

[shhhnfight]

Hey Techno -

I've been part of PvP since day 1, and I'm very familiar with stats (as well as SEVERAL other players. I'd love to come up with a list of players that would love to help out that are also experienced and familiar with many PvP levels).

I highly recommend that you try to find a bunch of players to gather up and discuss stats. Your dedication and responses to the community mean a lot to us, but as Noodleleg mentioned above, if a class is significantly underpowered, rings will not be the solution to the problem. We need to stop avoiding the prime issue with balancing classes and items by simply adding stats, because in reality (or I guess you can say 'virtually'), the legitimate act of balancing stats is what makes the difference.

I just think that this is the most reasonable solution... I mean after all, we're the ones playing your game all the time, in it's real action! (Not just testing).

Ok. INT SET SUCKS INT MAGE SUCKS SQUISHY AS MARSH! OKAY FIX IT TECHNO.

[Waug]

Ok. INT SET SUCKS INT MAGE SUCKS SQUISHY AS MARSH! OKAY FIX IT TECHNO.

I can really feel the pain of not being able to crush birds by 1/2 hit anymore.

[AbsolutePally]

that was the only thing that could make a bird win against a mage. blast to break shield then auto and blind repulse (all in less than a sec), now I think auto hits first when I press blast and it feels worse than before. I agree with auto beign returned as it was before.


Remove auto auto!!!!

[Deathofan]

Remove auto auto!!!! Seriously this could make some oldies come back. Twinks l10-18 will be back thrashing the newbies that all they know is spam skills and turn auto on by default. At endgame, only the experienced pvpers can turn on auto at 13m if there was a xbow and kite effectively if devs get rid out that -1m while running away. I would personally still be using phantom xbow if the difference between elite bow wasn't that huge (110dmg......). But I couldn't agree more on taking away the automatic turn-on on auto attack when casting a skill.

[Hadesofshadow]

Left that out. Mages are uber weak* in PvP, like Shil said, the majority of end-game mages are SADLY pallies.

lmao

this was the way it was for over a year

then they nerfed strength and now that its buffed to hell again what do we have?

pallies because of high base damages you can get away with it

you also have to consider the fact that this is STS

their end game pvp has been trash for over 3 years

[Waug]

4. End-game characters need more armor.
- How much more armor? (Ex. 50% more Armor.)
5. Strength should contribute less to Dodge.
- How much less? (Ex. 25% less.)



I agree that adding HP per level or attribute points will turn the bigger nob of the game rather hp and extra armor should be added at specific levels where it's require for example max skill point distribution has been raised from 6 to 9 from the level 65, but no steps have been taken to factor in that extra damage means, to balance that extra damage. Isn't it? That+other factor leads to this current game one hit kill problem slowly.

Let me explain what's other factor - as game approaches from the begining level it's clear we always needed less numbers of hit to kill enemies in pvp on an average and in general, fact is hp remained same but that's not the problem as there are other defense mechanisms one is dodge other is armor but unfortunately dodge got overpowed due to many factors and I think I talked a lot about it. But nobody like dodges in pvp 30-40% dodge is okay more or less depending upon buffs, de-buffs, hit etc, now the other factor armor could not factor in that extra damage that always increases with level cap and that's a fault. for ex. A particular skill against a particular enemy at level 75 could do nearly same damage as that particular skill against particular enemy do at 55 if and only if damage - armor was properly balanced also it was required as hp remains same.

So my point is clear Devs failed to add necessary amount of armor each level. Now balancing pve is way much easier job so pvp should not be according to pve but the opposite.

Here I'll try to put an example if Devs add 30% armor to an endgame class than the opponent should do nearly or less
(2 x 30% of armor) less damage assuming 100% crit. Meaning if current armor is 300, per hit damage should be reduced more than 180 after 30% armor increase approx.

Secondly and specilly as defense is getting powerful balancing 2h weapons is more necessy and important-, IMHO, DEVS failed again to balance 2H and 1H weapons current elite bow is just a small step, by small I'm not meaning small power or something. Proof is everywhere at pvp field look at that, how many bears or mages used 2h weapons that means they failed against shield and 1h the advantage should be more prominent, so in next level cap, not only elite weapons, make every 2h weapons more powerfull.

[Elf-Orc-Naga]

Right now...

I think you should focus on The mages, bears, and birds and then move on to the rhino's and foxes. I don't think it was even a good idea to bring two new classes with the amount of imbalancement end-game PvP has. So, what you should do, I think ALL SKILL LEVELS should be reduced BACK to level 6. Having skill levels at 9 is ridiculous and was a bad move in the first place. Bears now can hold 95+ dodge, and their skill damage is very high. Like I said, skill levels NEED to go back to 6, permanantly to prevent other riots/imbalancement. Int mages are ultra squishy now. They don't stand a chance vs. an overpowered bear and ofcourse the overpowered bird. Also, what happened to staff mages? They are suppose to be more dominant than wand mages. Now birds...where do I start. Birds now can one shot any class they wish with their what, 547 blast? Something like that? They dodged nearly EVERY SKILL with their ridiculous dodge. I sometimes have to use my skills TWICE, just to kill one bird. Instead of increasing their damage...how about increasing their HP some more and reducing what is actually needed to be reduced?


-My feedback.

Edit: You should also look at Reun's post in Rushorgtfo's thread called "Need a developers input".

Very well said! I really like this non noob view...well players especially old ones really have those experience to evaluate qualitatively not technically. Increasing skill level to 9 is the laziest thing to do i think. Looking forward to more creative ideas on skills. :) my constructive feedback

[Hadesofshadow]

Very well said! I really like this non noob view...well players especially old ones really have those experience to evaluate qualitatively not technically. Increasing skill level to 9 is the laziest thing to do i think. Looking forward to more creative ideas on skills. :) my constructive feedback

only way to balance game to include skill is

remove dodge

increase hp/reduce damage

rng makes games unfun

[Fusionstrike]

<inadvertent double post>

[Fusionstrike]

Here's my deeper, more considered look at the rhino. I decided to compare against bear, since rhino is most similar to that class. Sure, rhino has magic, but it's not very close to the enchantress. It has only two party buffs, and only one can be active at a time. And the enchantress has plenty of damage spells and buffs to throw around, making it very different from the rhino. The rhino is much more like the bear in that it isn't a damage dealer, but rather more like a tank with a few party supporting tricks thrown in. Thus my comparison will focus on rhino vs. bear.

I happen to have capped characters for both classes, so I just compared them as is. They both have enough str to wear top of the line str gear and put the rest of stats into dex. The skill allocation probably isn't an exact parallel, but it should be close enough to draw some meaningful conclusions.

Looking at the skills provides the best way to compare. Here are the skills of each, grouped by their main purpose. I captured all these skills with no gear equipped, so what you'll see is the base damage and effects with no weapon damage or stat boosts factored in.

RHINO
single target damage
charge (7) - 8m, 103-153 damage, 3s cooldown
redemption (9) - 133-151 damage, heal self, 2x combo damage, 5.5s cooldown

AOE damage
rhino might (7) - 6m, 70-74 damage, -9 H/s for 3 sec, stun, 6s cooldown
holy tempest (9) - 8m, 151-210 damage, 60% chance -30 hit debuff for 3 sec, 5s cooldown

buff self
guardian (9) - 8m, cure effects party, +40 armor and 10 dodge self for 8s, 20s cooldown
stone skin (6) - +33 armor self for 12s, 32.5s cooldown

buff party
brute force (6) - 20s +5 armor party, +7 dodge self
vital force (9) - 20s +36 damage party, +27 hit and +10 crit self

debuff
summon (6) - 12m, 5 sec -12 dodge debuff, -18 H/s

other
restore (6) - 8m, 110-125 heal, +40 H/s self, 5s cooldown
reincarnate (1) - 6m


BEAR
single target damage
vengeful slash (1) - 64-92 damage, 4.5s cooldown
crippling slash (1) - 64-77 damage, 6s cooldown
super mega slash (3) - 76-137 damage, 60% chance -10 armor, 4s cooldown
crushing blow (9) - 121-135 damage, -80 damage and -45 dodge for 5s, 4s cooldown

AOE damage
stomp (9) - 8m, 158-177 damage, 90% chance stun, 5s cooldown
beckon (7) - 12m, 88-95 damage, 50% chance stun, 7.5s cooldown

buff self
iron blood (9) - +60 armor for 12s, 32.5s cooldown
rage (9) - +60 crit and +90 damage for 20s, 28s cooldown
evade (9) - +20 dodge for 20s, 30s cooldown
taunt (9) - +14 dodge for 12s, 6s cooldown

debuff
hell scream (9) - 12m, -60 damage and -60 hit, 5s cooldown

Now let's look at a typical "round" for each class. Taking the top damage for each skill, we'll find out what each one does when it cycles once through all its damage-dealing skills.

Single-target and AOE damage skills

Bear: 92+77+137+135+177+95 = 713
Rhino: 153+151+74+210 = 588


So bear does more damage, mostly because it just plain has more damage skills to fire off. But there are two other factors that make it even more lopsided. One, my particular skill allocation has rhino maxed or near-maxed in all these skills, while my bear has almost nothing in the three slashes. Put another way, the rhino is nearly maxed out while the bear still has lots more room for improvement, and bear still kicks rhino's butt. The other factor is that bear has rage, which vastly increases the chance that any of its hits will be crits i.e. doubled. Putting these two factors together, bear has an incredible advantage in damage over rhino even without pouring all skill points into every possible damage avenue.

So what about the play style? Well, bear obviously has better tank and crowd-control capabilities, with beckon to pull, much more health to withstand damage, and taunt to get aggro. Rhino has a skill that supposedly taunts, but in my experience has a lot harder time attracting and keeping aggro than bear. Also, bear has much more effective AOE strikes, both in range and effect, due in part to the fact that two AOE skills form the bear's combo. Rhino has just one AOE skill with decent range (holy tempest) but needs to use single-target attacks to form its combo. Charge is a nice way to get in the room first, and summon has great range to attract mobs initially, but they inevitably lose interest and attack other, higher DPS targets almost immediately.

One thing rhino has that bear doesn't is party buffs. However, as discussed before, these buffs have negligible effect on the party, are mutually exclusive and have a realtively long cooldown time. These three factors together pretty much completely negate them as any meaningful factor in party performance.

Rhino also gets restore and reincarnate, which bear doesn't have, so it can support the party that way. However, these end up functioning more as emergency measures for the party than an integral part of the combat. This is obviously true for reincarnate, which has no value other than to recover from a catastrophic falure. It's also true for restore because of its relatively low amount of healing and long cooldown. This means that it's much more efficient to just let the enchantress take care of "normal" healing and save the rhino's heal to jump in at a critical moment of low health to avert disaster. Also, being able to rev and heal a downed enchantress (especially when the party has only one) is a valuable skill, but one that is again just a disaster recovery option that is rarely needed by good parties.

So my conclusion is that the rhino as currently implemented is too much in the middle between party support/buff specialist and tank/damage source. It's not strong and capable enough to replace a good bear tank, and it doesn't have anywhere near the buffs it would need to make it a worthwhile performance enhancer for the party. It's caught in between as a "jack-of-all-trades and master of none".

Here's what I would do to improve rhino. Any one of these would take the class out of "no man's land" and solidly into a clear and useful role.


Make the party buffs better. This means boosting their effect and/or adding other party buffs to really transform the class into the "secret ingredient" that makes the party excel.
Add some more damage options. This means boosting damage, both targeted and AOE, and/or adding more skills that do damage.


Either way, the rhino has way more self-buffs than it needs, so I think some replacement of skills will ultimately be the only way out of the current bind. Just making the two existing party buffs better isn't going to be enough. Similarly, just making the existing damage skills stronger isn't going to do it either. There's just too much dead weight in the current skill design to leave room to manuever the rhino into a really effective class unless some of the skills are replaced or completely reworked.

That being said, if you just wanted to tilt the rhino towards fighting/tanking, it might be possible to do so with some major tweaks but no completely rewritten skills. I have my doubts that would be enough, but here's how that would go. First, making the AOE skills have larger range and higher damage, making taunt work better, and maybe even adding some kind of pull to one of the skills would let rhino be able to do tank/crowd control duties. Another improvement would be to make charge and redemption deal AOE damage as a way to both get more hits in and attract more attention from mobs when charging first into the room. The final thing I can think of would be to boost the output of the skills that damage over time (rhino might and summon) to something meaningful. But they would have to go up a lot compared to the meaningless amount of damage they do now, and this alone wouldn't be enough to save the class; other changes mentioned above would have to come with it.

My conclusion is that in pretty much all facets, parties are better off with a bear than a rhino. The rhino is a class with some neat tricks but no really clear role, as the "specialists" always end up being more effective in the end (bird to damage, bear to tank, enchantress to heal and nuke). In order to make the class relevant, you need to adjust it to find a real niche that other classes just can't cover as well. But first you have to figure out exactly which niche you're aiming for. Right now, the rhino class just doesn't have a purpose that brings enough value to the party.

[Flawless]

Simple, just take mages and bears out of the equation permanently. (Thank me later.)

[Waug]

Calculating class damage isn't that much easy, there're really many many factors. Even I assume that all your data is true and you calcuted all data even hidden data, for example many skills doesn't show damage but deliver damage on enemy.



Single-target and AOE
damage skills
Bear:
92+77+137+135+177+95
= 713
Rhino: 153+151+74+210
= 588

let's calculate roughly it on an enemy whose armor is 60 and I found they are doing nearly same damage

713 - (60 x 6) = 353
588 - (60 x 4) = 348
but that doesn't even implies that they are equally balanced either. Cuz there are many many factors such as cool down time, multiple enemies in case aoe etc. etc.

[MightyMicah]

A more logical approach would be to not allow auto attack to be triggered automatically by using 1 skill. This would be a less "riskier" change that I think would change pvp a bit. This would mainly make birds a little less OP. It might seem like a small worthless change, but since I solely pvp on a bird I can for sure tell you that most bird fights end in "2 shots". Really though it is only 1 shot but since auto is triggered automatically, this makes it so birds just need to use 1 skill and still hit auto. If players had to turn on auto manually like it used to be, then it sure would tone down most birds quite a bit. Because most birds don't have the speed to shoot out several skills. They depend on that auto attack triggering on its own. It should be taken out of pvp and the old way brought back. Auto attack required to be turned on manually. It should be kept in pve though, because I am sure it makes it easier for the newer players and is very useful. But from the pvp standpoint, players know what they're doing. So yeah, in closing auto attack should not be triggered automatically by using 1 skill, it should be turned on by the player manually. Only in pvp though.

Excellent post. I agree on every point except your very last sentence. It shouldn't trigger in PvE or else people will learn it wrong while leveling.

Welcome to the forums :D

[Suentous PO]

I also agree with ending auto attack being triggered by pressing a skill, BOTH in pvp and pve. In pve having an "auto auto attack" kinda encourages button mashing with less thought. If it were to be ended in pvp only, it's gonna confuse new folks who try out pvp and then realize ( if they do) that there's an unwritten rule only applying to pvp -Odd.
In pve there was a utility for the absent auto.
Example; during the dragon ichor quest we had a way of clearing faster. The Mage or tank would gather mobs bringing the whole map to the center for the kill. So, as a bird I either wait in the middle, which made it more difficult and boring. The other faster way was to run along side the person pulling aggro and as long as you didn't use auto, you could run alongside the tank killing with skills untill the mob was fully pulled, which made it safer in general as there were less mob by the time it all came together. -just one example.
Also agreeing to lowering dodge and most everything Legendfb is layin down.

[Aressgodxx]

-_-... Techno, talk to some experienced PvPers... A ring won't do much if classes are LMAO LMAO LMAO I ARESSGODXX EDITED THE QUOTE :3....
and what you do say makes sense btw

[Suentous PO]

and what you do say makes sense btw

please don't make the devs sift through pointlessness, in a thread like this where we are working together to solve a problem, thx

[XXTHEEAGLEXX]

When is the update coming.. For pvp changes

[XghostzX]

When is the update coming.. For pvp changes

After AL PvP is implemented... all I can tell you.

[Seminole]

So no changes to health pool? No changes to level 9 skills? No changes to crit or the 95+ dodge? Gg pvp will stay broken, ill keep my 50 dollars next cap.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Listen to ghost absolutepally, flawless thelonestud and otukura. Could not agree more with every statement they made. Especially ghosts post about pvpers helping out with the REBALENCe. THIS IS WHAT IS NEEDED. You need actual experienced pvpers to fix pvp. Simple as that. Take a group of people and let them run some tests and give some ideas. I know there are quite a few very experienced players who can help out.

[TEOKILLO]

Well, if they took a few ppl you would be jeles of them becuz you wouldnt be pick

[Everyone'sFavMage]

.-. Not to be touchey but pvp needs rebalencing across all levels, and with 23 twinks in the lvl 50-71 range I would say im experienced for this lvl range.
And even if I don't get picked. I just want pvp fixed.

[Seminole]

Listen to ghost absolutepally, flawless thelonestud and otukura. Could not agree more with every statement they made. Especially ghosts post about pvpers helping out with the REBALENCe. THIS IS WHAT IS NEEDED. You need actual experienced pvpers to fix pvp. Simple as that. Take a group of people and let them run some tests and give some ideas. I know there are quite a few very experienced players who can help out.

Dont need a bunch of kids trying to fix a broken system. Im sure the devs can figure it out on their own they just need to put in some effort if they want to save their game.

[XghostzX]

Listen to ghost absolutepally, flawless thelonestud and otukura. Could not agree more with every statement they made. Especially ghosts post about pvpers helping out with the REBALENCe. THIS IS WHAT IS NEEDED. You need actual experienced pvpers to fix pvp. Simple as that. Take a group of people and let them run some tests and give some ideas. I know there are quite a few very experienced players who can help out.

Dont need a bunch of kids trying to fix a broken system. Im sure the devs can figure it out on their own they just need to put in some effort if they want to save their game.

Yeah, just a bunch of kids ._.

Semi, I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for us "kids", and our feedback through the forums, PvP rebalancing wouldn't have even been acknowledged by the devs.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

^^^ I'll thank that when I get moar thx.

[Seminole]

Yeah, just a bunch of kids ._.

Semi, I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for us "kids", and our feedback through the forums, PvP rebalancing wouldn't have even been acknowledged by the devs.

Didnt mean to sound crude or rude, im a kid myself. Well teen. Anyway, what i mean is that devs are experienced and trained in many many many years of experience. They have college degrees and specialize in these areas. They know what is best for their game. Yes you may have played pvp since day one, but do you have the slightest idea in any of the mechanics of a game? Would you know what is best for pvp and pve? You may be able to throw a couple stats around but do u have any idea how that would effect all levels of pvp/pve including item sets and bonuses. Again dont mean to sound rude but if they let a bunch of kids try to run the game it runs the risk of totally ruining everything. I rather have experienced educated developers that are willing to take the time to look into this issue and fix the problem while keeping our suggestions into consideration.

Would you let a kid cut your hair? Or would you rather have a professional barber who specializes in haircuts do that? Would you want a kid to tutor you in a college course or would you rather have a proffessor who specializes in that area? You get the point. And yes their are many geniuses out in the world that are relatively young. If you are one of these kid geniuses then i apologize. However the chances of this are relatively slim.

[XghostzX]

Didnt mean to sound crude or rude, im a kid myself. Well teen. Anyway, what i mean is that devs are experienced and trained in many many many years of experience. They have college degrees and specialize in these areas. They know what is best for their game. Yes you may have played pvp since day one, but do you have the slightest idea in any of the mechanics of a game? Would you know what is best for pvp and pve? You may be able to throw a couple stats around but do u have any idea how that would effect all levels of pvp/pve including item sets and bonuses. Again dont mean to sound rude but if they let a bunch of kids try to run the game it runs the risk of totally ruining everything. I rather have experienced educated developers that are willing to take the time to look into this issue and fix the problem while keeping our suggestions into consideration.

Would you let a kid cut your hair? Or would you rather have a professional barber who specializes in haircuts do that? Would you want a kid to tutor you in a college course or would you rather have a proffessor who specializes in that area? You get the point. And yes their are many geniuses out in the world that are relatively young. If you are one of these kid geniuses then i apologize. However the chances of this are relatively slim.

Yes, I'm well aware that you didn't try to sound rude. However, I know more about stats and game mechanics than you think, it's your opinion that will decide if you believe me or not. I truly think that the players can provide insightful feedback if they gathered a bunch of PvPers from all levels.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Again, agreed with William.

[Waug]

How funny, even who doesn't pvp in endgame (clearly stated also), judging comments and trying to pretend, which comment is valid.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

I've pvped at every cap since sewers except black smoke mountain. I have lots of friends who play this cap and are disgusted with it though. And I have a few lvl 71s that I pvp with and can even see it there.

[Hadesofshadow]

Didnt mean to sound crude or rude, im a kid myself. Well teen. Anyway, what i mean is that devs are experienced and trained in many many many years of experience. They have college degrees and specialize in these areas. They know what is best for their game. Yes you may have played pvp since day one, but do you have the slightest idea in any of the mechanics of a game? Would you know what is best for pvp and pve? You may be able to throw a couple stats around but do u have any idea how that would effect all levels of pvp/pve including item sets and bonuses. Again dont mean to sound rude but if they let a bunch of kids try to run the game it runs the risk of totally ruining everything. I rather have experienced educated developers that are willing to take the time to look into this issue and fix the problem while keeping our suggestions into consideration.

Would you let a kid cut your hair? Or would you rather have a professional barber who specializes in haircuts do that? Would you want a kid to tutor you in a college course or would you rather have a proffessor who specializes in that area? You get the point. And yes their are many geniuses out in the world that are relatively young. If you are one of these kid geniuses then i apologize. However the chances of this are relatively slim.

please tell me this post is a joke

please

[Seminole]

please tell me this post is a joke

please


Umm no... whats a joke is kids trying to program a game since they have two years playing video game experience on their resume lol.

[Seminole]

^^^ I'll thank that when I get moar thx.

Good to see you two are giving each other thanks, since you seem so desperate for a thanks ill give you one as well

[azefekie]

What's funny is someone thinking that the game devs don't look at feedback and try to find a solution, devs don't join pvp anymore and they aren't aware of a lot of the problems first hand. Many of the people that play these games have degrees just like the STS members, no need to try and act like it's only "kids" that play their games.
Umm no... whats a joke is kids trying to program a game since they have two years playing video game experience on their resume lol.

[azefekie]

Yeah, just a bunch of kids ._.

Semi, I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for us "kids", and our feedback through the forums, PvP rebalancing wouldn't have even been acknowledged by the devs.
ouch oh burn! ow! burn! whoa on fire ow burn * runs around in a circle flailing arms* :D



EDIT- ghost still waiting for you to sign my shield! When i all gwown up i wanna be jus like uuuu

[XghostzX]

Yeah, just a bunch of kids ._.

Semi, I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for us "kids", and our feedback through the forums, PvP rebalancing wouldn't have even been acknowledged by the devs.
ouch oh burn! ow! burn! whoa on fire ow burn * runs around in a circle flailing arms* :D



EDIT- ghost still waiting for you to sign my shield! When i all gwown up i wanna be jus like uuuu

I gotchu bro!! Here's some ice fo dat burnnnn

[Rushorgtfo]

Yay Pvp might be fun again

[Noodleleg]

Mmm... A PvP Legends beta... Seems legit.

[Caiahar]

Im pretty sure everyone agrees, I tink the rhino actually has no role and underpowered. The rhino uses spells int and str. Yet he uses millions of mana. Im already out of mana pots with him even to im lv 10.But on my bear, which is full dex, I barely have to use mana. Even str bears barely use mana. And also, please try to take out the damage of forgotten bows, not just 10, a whole lot more.

[XXTHEEAGLEXX]

When is this update?

[Aressgodxx]

-_-... Techno, talk to some experienced PvPers... A ring won't do much if classes are underpowered naturally... Etc....

lol ouch!