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Samhayne
02-12-2013, 02:41 PM
More PvP bug fixes and balance changes are coming.

We have our list and want to check in with you. What do you feel could be better balanced or improved with Arcane Legends Capture the Flag PvP?






Please, no replies of "make my class a PvP god!" kk thx!

Xenois
02-12-2013, 02:48 PM
The level difference should be reduced from -/+ 2 to -/+ 1... There is a huge stat difference from the low end of the determined range to the high range with it being a total of 4 levels different... A level 8 versus a level 12 will lose 9 out of 10 times, if not ALL the time. A level 8 versus a level 10 will have a much more balanced chance to win.

The imbalance between an 8 versus a 12 comes in all ways.. From the gear improving all stats substantially with the addition of the large amount of stat points / skill points alloted.

Lady_Pebbles
02-12-2013, 02:49 PM
ONE HIT KILLS - This is on the top of my list. No class should have that ability. Ever.

MACROS USERS - Also on the top of my list. Players on Chrome have an advantage with that and its hella frustrating.

BUILDS - Many players (including me) spent a lit of plat trying to find the right build for ourselves just for PvP but that can also be used for PvE. We need a way to have both builds. Wvhills has a great suggestion in the feedback forum.

SURVIVABILITY - One or two skills shouldn't be -vital- for PvP survival. One class shouldn't have a higher survival rate than the other either.

ONE SIDED MATCHES - A match with one side filled with one class and the other with a mix of classes, should not be OP. Like one side filled with tanks and the other with two tanks, one mage, two rogues... Slaughter house. -.- Btw, I mean dmg not classes stacking.

LEVEL BRACKETS - Like the player above me said we need a better bracket. My lvl12 toon should not be in a match with lvl20 toons. My friend took screen shots and reported this but the problem is still there.

MINI MAP - It would be great if we could see our opponent's possitions on the map. <~just a suggestion ppl don't get all hyped up on it. XD

ALSO! I made a couple posts below.. Please read!

I got more but will list them later when I remember them. x.x

octavos
02-12-2013, 03:00 PM
More PvP bug fixes and balance changes are coming.

We have our list and want to check in with you. What do you feel could be better balanced or improved with Arcane Legends Capture the Flag PvP?

Please, no replies of "make my class a PvP god!" kk thx!

please look at locked chest weapons for lower class PvP (10-16)...those def need adjustments. on all classes.
and dazing..some attacks lasts to long..and bows for rouges can hurt a bit to much

Vystirch
02-12-2013, 03:00 PM
Dmg and dps should be sliced in half or close to that.
PvP should have set brackets, not this +-3 of the first person to join or whatever.
There should only be a max of 2 stuns for each class, one for the normal charge attack and one skill if that.

Darkgenocide
02-12-2013, 03:17 PM
ONE SIDED MATCHES - A match with one side filled with one class and the other with a mix of classes, should not be OP. Like one side filled with tanks and the other with two tanks, one mage, two rogues... Slaughter house. -.-

Did you ever think that alot of people do PVP in guild Groups? This should not be a issue what so ever because there should not be a restriction on what classes can be in what group. If i want to have a 5 man Warrior Team with my guild, or a 5 man rogue team or what ever mixture i want, i should be able to.



PvP should have set brackets, not this +-3 of the first person to join or whatever.

I Agree with this, +- 1 Level would be perfect



There should only be a max of 2 stuns for each class, one for the normal charge attack and one skill if that.

Dont agree with this, what ever skills a class has should be kept how it is. every class seems to be able to stun pretty good. It just depends on if you can get out of there in time or stun them before they stun you. I Think the stun system is pretty good as of right now even tho Mages are pretty hard core stun machines but they have to be they cant stand much damage without there shield.



MINI MAP - It would be great if we could see our opponent's possitions on the map.


This would defeat any purpose of any type of surprise attacks or group attacks and would just have people run from everyone. I think you not being able to see enemy's is fine and is not making any type of gaming worse or better as of right now.



ONE HIT KILLS - This is on the top of my list. No class should jave that ability. Ever.


That would defeat the purpose of your crit % being worth anything. Crits are ment to be Mega Damage Hits. If you got a critical hit in real life and a bullet hit you in the head you would be dead unless you are very lucky. 1 hit crits is a Luck % unless your HP is just out right low which is then your fault on your end because i rarely get 1 hit. I notice i 1 hit mages more then anyone. Not a big problem if you ask me ...



MACROS USERS - Also on the top of my list. Players on Chrome have an advantage with that and its hella frustrating.


If you use Macro's your more at a disadvantage if anything. Macro users can not charge there attacks so there basiclly using there mana super fast and depending on how they have there macro set up, just messes them up more then anything.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now, I think you should NOT be able to capture a flag unless YOUR flag is at your base. I think there should be some sort of warning rather it be something flashing or something that the enemy has your flag, There should be more then 1 map, more game modes, a Safe Zone or something but once your into a fight, you can no longer enter that safe zone till the fight has been done for like 3 seconds or something, maybe a shield on the doors so they cant go back in once in a fight or i dont know something you can figure out lol...

Madstar
02-12-2013, 03:28 PM
Take away Rogue's 'One hit kill'. Take away all these healing from warriors, cause they never die. I mean, us mages are too weak and we can't enjoy Player VS. Player at all when level 20 - 21. You just can't. You're the rat of the game. Level 10, 15 and 17 is good as a mage. Oh, and all I ask for is this:

Make something that auto boots players not moving (AFK) for more than a minute. It will allow teams to be HERE TO FIGHT and not AFK or will make non-stop PvP kill farmers STOP.

Thanks for asking us, though. :)

Lady_Pebbles
02-12-2013, 03:37 PM
Did you ever think that alot of people do PVP in guild Groups? This should not be a issue what so ever because there should not be a restriction on what classes can be in what group. If i want to have a 5 man Warrior Team with my guild, or a 5 man rogue team or what ever mixture i want, i should be able to.
All the matches I've been in, not all of them are in a group. Lots of matches players are scattered everywhere. Also, I never said put a restriction like that. -.- In talking dmg not classes.


This would defeat any purpose of any type of surprise attacks or group attacks and would just have people run from everyone. I think you not being able to see enemy's is fine and is not making any type of gaming worse or better as of right now.
Actually I disagree, I seriously think it would be a huge help. Especially since we don't have any camera movements.


That would defeat the purpose of your crit % being worth anything. Crits are ment to be Mega Damage Hits. If you got a critical hit in real life and a bullet hit you in the head you would be dead unless you are very lucky. 1 hit crits is a Luck % unless your HP is just out right low which is then your fault on your end because i rarely get 1 hit. I notice i 1 hit mages more then anyone. Not a big problem if you ask me ...
Game =/= real life. Critical hits should output the most dmg possible but NOT give one hit kills when the opponent has a full hp bar. Point blank. Smh.


If you use Macro's your more at a disadvantage if anything. Macro users can not charge there attacks so there basiclly using there mana super fast and depending on how they have there macro set up, just messes them up more then anything.
Also gives them a huge advantage of making huge dmg (an amount that shouldn't even be possible) before running for a mana pack or they can adjust some other keys to replenish mana. Depends how they're doing it


Now, I think you should NOT be able to capture a flag unless YOUR flag is at your base. I think there should be some sort of warning rather it be something flashing or something that the enemy has your flag, There should be more then 1 map, more game modes, a Safe Zone or something but once your into a fight, you can no longer enter that safe zone till the fight has been done for like 3 seconds or something, maybe a shield on the doors so they cant go back in once in a fight or i dont know something you can figure out lol...
The point of CtF is which team can get #of flags in before the other team. With what you're suggesting, if each team has the opponent's flag then the game will never end until the flag carriers die. With heals, they will last a whiiiile lol. Smh.

Safe zones can be used strategicly so I disagree. However, I do think that spawn kills are annoying. Perhaps they could just make the respawn areas a restricted section for a certain amount of time after a player respawns. Better yet, make the respawned player have invulnerability for a few seconds by not being able to leave the spawn area &/or no one can from the opposite team can enter that area until the timer runs out? Not sure but it is annoying lol.

jlinder2003
02-12-2013, 03:52 PM
As a sorcerer, a lot of things bother me:
1. Getting one hit through a wall is a big one.
2. Being pulled back by a warrior also through a wall holding me until he can come and clobber me.
3. Only having a chance to win a battle if it is 1 v 1.
4. Having players on one team leave so that there are 5 v 1 or 5 v 2, that is not fair for either side.

One of the biggest changes I think needs to be made is how the rogue and warrior both have a way to jump up to you from far away. Good rogues and warriors will do this and one hit you to kill or stun and then you are just stuck there to die. Those classes always catch up to me as I move around the map. I had to respec for added speed from gale to have a chance but that effect does not work when you have the flag.

I don't know if this is a problem, but why does the flag bearer move so slow?

I do like not knowing where the enemies are. I don't think that should change.

I know I can be a better player, but this game is currently unbalanced for the sorcerer. This game should be fun but it makes me want to throw my phone across the room when I die without even seeing my enemy.

Xoreobonezxe
02-12-2013, 04:03 PM
I believe there should be a pvp where you go buy # of kills rather than flags. You can do this in pocket legends so why not on arcane legends?

:banana:

Syylent
02-12-2013, 04:23 PM
Something needs to be done about the spawn killing. Ran into a group of 5 last night that would run from spawn to spawn to kill lonely ole me. 5 on 1 is very tiring. So I made it a game of hide and seek. It was kinda pathetic, but oh well. I finally just left because they weren't getting the rock and just 3 green tanks jumping on me.. a mage stunning me and a rogue getting the death blow.

Maybe make the lobby so you know what type of team you are going to face. Facing a siamese quintuplet of tanks all green with envy of the others is quite frustrating. I can then choose whether to stay or go.

Macros.... not sure what to do about but have seen strange stuff in the past few days. Maybe its the lag.

Need to add a second type of pvp area. The same map is getting stale. CTF is losing its luster.

thekdub
02-12-2013, 04:40 PM
As a level 21 sorceror, my biggest complaint by far, is how OP warriors are. They beat us at everything:
1) More health
2) More armor
3) More range
4) Faster
5) Heal better
6) Kill faster
7) I think we stun about the same rate, but not sure.

Come on. You gotta give us something here.

wolfkult
02-12-2013, 04:42 PM
* set level arenas (not based on first in), have a range like 7-10 11-14, whatever
* reduce stun. All classes take advantage of it in some way but it needs to be reduced. How can it be seen as fun to be stunlocked to where you cannot even use a skill? Drives people away from game when there is literally nothing they can do to fight back. Maybe a stun immunity that is relative the amount of time you are stunned. 2s stun = 6s stun immune (3x), or whatever. For warriors a reduced change of stun from skyward (make it 15 instead of 25 for example).
* leaderboard for more than just flag capture and deathblow (kills and deathblows separate?)
* some incentive to win CTF

Bebsi
02-12-2013, 05:00 PM
I agree with a few things others have mentioned.
The most disturbing thing is the 100% perma stun from whatever class, should be toned down a little bit :)

A wall is there for a reason. It can't be that I get shot through the wall or even from the neighboring room.
That's pretty much a joke.

Spawn killers. I've seen it on my teams, too.
They split and wait in each room, kill the others and send them to their mates to get killed, etc.

Camping at the base with the whole team should have a time restriction because some teams never try to get flags.
They just wait for u to come pick up the flag so they can beat u up with the whole family lol
I don't mind if its a few times but when they stay for like more than 5 minutes it gets frustrating.
Is there any way to solve this?

Lady mentioned it above... It would be nice if we could see our opponents on the map.
This way many unnecessary deaths can be avoided xD

Oh yea, lvl range should be only +/-1 for obvious reasons.

The teams should be auto generated so pros wouldn't just stick with pros to slaughter other teams.


Will add other points later when I remember them ^_^

D-:
02-12-2013, 05:09 PM
Nothing. Fine as it is.

inkredible
02-12-2013, 05:57 PM
Im honestly fine with everything, im a warrior
I think each classes have their own weaknesses and own strength its a matter of a right specs and right strategy
Rogues can kill me as fast as i can kill em, or as slow whatsoever
Mages can kill me, i can kill em. And if a lot of people have a problem with "rogues" being unbalance then theyre doing something wrong
The only reason why most rogues got most kills in pvp is its because some or most of it are stolen kills just cuz theyre faster.

I personally think that they should set up "kills" based on the damage u did, not on who Hit them last.

- My build for my warrior can be used for both PVE and PVP , and own. Its really all about knowledge, less more on playing around with the specs.
You gotta know your character. Learn the use of each specs, what theyre about
i did not play around specs a lot, but based on my knowledge about warriors i came up with i believe ONE of the best specs for warrior

inkredible
02-12-2013, 05:59 PM
As a level 21 sorceror, my biggest complaint by far, is how OP warriors are. They beat us at everything:
1) More health
2) More armor
3) More range
4) Faster
5) Heal better
6) Kill faster
7) I think we stun about the same rate, but not sure.

Come on. You gotta give us something here.

Warriors do not stun the same, out of all the classes.. warriors actually stun the least.. MAGES i believe stun the most, then rogues. our stun is only 25% and thats it , cannot be increased in any way

GoodSyntax
02-12-2013, 06:08 PM
I have come to accept most things but the one that I have the biggest issue with is the ridiculous range that Warriors have.

Somehow, it seems that their swords can hit me from 10-12m away. Their Stomps cover tremendous range (which in and of itself isn't a huge issue), but their Windmills seem to affect me around corners, and basically just within bow range. That has to stop. If Warriors attacks have bow-like range, well....that doesn't make that much sense to me.

Next is the concept of teaming - again, at it's core, not a huge issue, but Warriors traveling in packs are unstoppable. They keep buffing eachother to attain invincibility, plus their myriad of stun attacks and heal buffs make them far too OP.

Finally, I am reasonable fine with the incredible range that Sorcerers have, plus I have come to accept all of their stuns, but the invincibility shield puts them in the same class as Warriors. Two Sorcerers together, between the stun capability, long range fireballs, heals, etc., make them very hard to take down.

Rogues, unfortunately do not have any of the above abilities, so without the max crit attack (Aimed Shot), they are an inferior class, designed only for finishing kills. They cannot absorb much damage, they don't have any shield-like effect, they lack many of the stun attacks, and they seem to die rather quickly against a good group.

Just my 2 cents...

Snalin
02-12-2013, 06:26 PM
Take away Rogue's 'One hit kill'. Take away all these healing from warriors, cause they never die. I mean, us mages are too weak and we can't enjoy Player VS. Player at all when level 20 - 21. You just can't. You're the rat of the game. Level 10, 15 and 17 is good as a mage. Oh, and all I ask for is this:

Make something that auto boots players not moving (AFK) for more than a minute. It will allow teams to be HERE TO FIGHT and not AFK or will make non-stop PvP kill farmers STOP.

Thanks for asking us, though. :)

How did you get 22k ctf kills in 2 days?? You must play alot

Lady_Pebbles
02-12-2013, 06:31 PM
Like many others... I have one of each class... So here is what I noticed...

Rogues have a high critical % & chance that causes them to deal a lot of dmg in a short amount of time. Their range is also higher than Mages. However, Mages have high DOTs that are also AOEs and yes the stuns work back-to-back when using Fireball and charged weapon but Rogues can also keep you stunned and one hit kill Mages when their HP is full -despite- having shield up. Warriors have a huuuuge survival rate. Its really ridiculous! Between the invulnerability combined with the heal ticks its like Mage's Shield AND Heal spells put together while doing hella dmg plus having range close to or the same as Rogues!

I think they need to seriously nerf the critical rates/%, stuns, ranges, and survivability on all classes to make each one just as capable of killing the other without having any advantages against each other.


EDIT: Damn I should have put this on my post above... Probably won't get read much now... >_< lol

inkredible
02-12-2013, 06:36 PM
I have come to accept most things but the one that I have the biggest issue with is the ridiculous range that Warriors have.

Somehow, it seems that their swords can hit me from 10-12m away. Their Stomps cover tremendous range (which in and of itself isn't a huge issue), but their Windmills seem to affect me around corners, and basically just within bow range. That has to stop. If Warriors attacks have bow-like range, well....that doesn't make that much sense to me.

Next is the concept of teaming - again, at it's core, not a huge issue, but Warriors traveling in packs are unstoppable. They keep buffing eachother to attain invincibility, plus their myriad of stun attacks and heal buffs make them far too OP.

Finally, I am reasonable fine with the incredible range that Sorcerers have, plus I have come to accept all of their stuns, but the invincibility shield puts them in the same class as Warriors. Two Sorcerers together, between the stun capability, long range fireballs, heals, etc., make them very hard to take down.

Rogues, unfortunately do not have any of the above abilities, so without the max crit attack (Aimed Shot), they are an inferior class, designed only for finishing kills. They cannot absorb much damage, they don't have any shield-like effect, they lack many of the stun attacks, and they seem to die rather quickly against a good group.

Just my 2 cents...

Yes because we can spec's to increase our range, just like other classes can specs other things more than we can, everyone has their ups and downs
I have played with 3 warriors and a rogue against 2 mages, 2 rogues - ya warriors are actually nothin when two mages n two rogues are involved
because 1st. MAGES STUNS ARE CRAZY, we cant move, and rogue's hit kills, and they both stun MORE accurately than warriors . but yes if a warrior stun you, expect that youre done. but when we get stun right after another right after another over and over.. we really cant do anything , we just die LOL

and by warriors in this.. i meant PRO warriors.. it was ME, ANDYPW, EVILSATAN - until i ofcourse invited my leaderboard friends bec we just couldnt win
i asked Bulsa and Vyridiana to join us, and ofcourse we owned ;) LOL

Vystirch
02-12-2013, 06:39 PM
Ok this is from my PvP thread: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?84145-My-newest-thoughts-on-PvP&p=966676#post966676

But to just answer Sam's question I have listed it below.


Classes:


Well as many of you have seen I have said often that the PvP is balanced.
This being said I still do believe it. I just see small tweaks needed to each class.

I have meet mages that cat solo rogues, mages that can solo warriors. Rogues that can solo mages, rogues that can solo warriors. Warriors that can solo mages, and warriors that can solo rogues.
This is why I think PvP is balanced.

warrior: Shield removed from horn; defense raised.
rogues: Dps decreased slightly.
mages: less time on fireballs stun time.


With these small changes I believe PvP will be much more balanced.
Also to help PvP become even more than just a 1-3hit kill zone I suggest dmg/dps and heal be sliced 25-50% for all classes.

inkredible
02-12-2013, 06:39 PM
Take away Rogue's 'One hit kill'. Take away all these healing from warriors, cause they never die. I mean, us mages are too weak and we can't enjoy Player VS. Player at all when level 20 - 21. You just can't. You're the rat of the game. Level 10, 15 and 17 is good as a mage. Oh, and all I ask for is this:

Make something that auto boots players not moving (AFK) for more than a minute. It will allow teams to be HERE TO FIGHT and not AFK or will make non-stop PvP kill farmers STOP.

Thanks for asking us, though. :)

I could say the same and take away the mages stun, like i said Every class is good at something, its a matter of a really good specs and strategies.
I found that SOMETIMES MAGES are harder to kill than rogues bec of the amount of stuns they do.

Ruejade
02-12-2013, 07:33 PM
I totally disagree about knowing your enemies' position through the mini map. This completely prevents sneak attacks using camera advantages and also prevents strategic flag sneaking. What's the point of CTF when you know the positions of the opponents flag bearers? Also, a team with better team work will group up faster and hunt down weaker groups on the map. And this will carry on to the unending spawn kill farming with one team of 5 against another team which is scattered across 2 spawn rooms. This also makes spawn killing so much more easier since you know where your opponent spawn.

Usually when my team is at a disadvantage such as in a 5v2 match, I'll play hide and seek while picking off lone rangers. This opponents appearing on mini maps issue will also ruin 5v2 or 5v3 matches since the larger group will just gang up on the smaller group and the weaker team would have no chance to hide and gank.

Energizeric
02-12-2013, 07:45 PM
Hi Sam, IMO the overall the issues that have to be balanced are these:

1) Rogues dominate the leaderboards in CTF Kills, Warriors are a far second, and the only Sorcerers there are those that farm kills. This needs to be more balanced between classes.

2) Warriors dominate the leaderboards for Flags. They have such an awsome heal skill (better than sorcerers even) and they are able to basically jump over walls and leap so far that nobody can possibly catch them or take them down once they have the flag.



Here are some possible ideas I have for balancing these issues:

1) The amount of bonus damage given for critical hits can be nerfed a bit. The high critical damage gives rogues a big advantage since they are the only ones who have decent crit stats. This allows them to "one-hit" sorcerers almost at will and kill warriors in 2-3 hits. I believe this is the main reason they rule the kills leaderboards.

2) INT stat points could be made to add to Crit stats, perhaps not as much as DEX points do -- maybe an adjustment similar to how INT & DEX points were changed to add to health points with an update in December. This would allow sorcerers to have a decent chance at a critical hit. Even if it were only 1 in every 8-10 hits, it could cause enough of a change where maybe 1 in 10 deaths for your average sorcerer would now be a kill as they would win that fight.

3) Warriors heal skill could be nerfed a bit. IMO Sorcerers should have the best heal skill, not Warriors. Warriors already have the highest health and best armor. Also giving them the best heal skill causes them to be too hard to kill.

4) Warriors & Rogues both have a skill that allows them to speed up/leap ahead when carrying the flag. However, Sorcerers one skill that allows this in PvE (Gale Force) has been nerfed for PvP. I think this skill should be restored to work in PvP as it does in PvE.

5) Perhaps Sorcerers Time & Frost skills should both have a little bit better chance at stunning/slowing enemies. Right now Time does not ever stun the enemy, it only slows them a little bit, and Frost almost never results in even slowing the enemy. If Sorcerers had a little bit better stun ability than the other classes do, then maybe this itself would allow them to compete in both kills and flags, i.e. it wouldn't matter if I can run fast while carrying the flag if I am able to effectively slow the enemies who are chasing me.



I know it seems like all my suggestions are attempts to improve sorcerers, so it seems a bit selfish, but take a look at the leaderboards.... Sorcerers are dead last in both kills and flags, so obviously they are the ones that need the most improvement. Or alternatively you could leave them the same and just nerf the Warrior's heal skill and nerf the Rogue's critical hit damage. Either way the word "balance" means that ideally you should have equal numbers of warriors, rogues and sorcerers on both the CTF kills and flags leaderboards.

Energizeric
02-12-2013, 07:49 PM
SURVIVABILITY - One or two skills shouldn't be -vital- for PvP survival. One class shouldn't have a higher survival rate than the other either.

This!

Choice of skills should be based on personal preference, not because one skill is "better" for PvP. All skills should be equally effective. If one skill is better than another, then maybe that skill needs to be nerfed, or the lesser skill needs to be boosted. But we should reach a point of balance where no specific skills are necessary to be competitive.

Haowesie
02-12-2013, 08:21 PM
Warrior and Rogue has the ability to leap -- this has been compared to some as the speed addition in gale force. I would like to point out some observations:
- I have not seen a warrior or rogue to be stopped mid way of executing a skyward or a pierce, whereas a sorcerer can be stunned while the speed of gale force is in effect.
- the distance, as well as the time to cover the distance by skyward or pierce is definitely not equal to speed addition to gale force.
- Speed is an upgrade to Gale Force, it is not a skill in itself. Both skyward and pierce by its own nature has this ability on top of the damage it gives, without using a skill point for an upgrade (I.e. you only need one skill point for warriors and rouges, but need two skill points for sorcerers).

I would also like for devs to take perspective on both sides where people are requesting a nerf, since it may give other classes an advantage -- I'm sure you guys do, but would like to state it anyways :)
- a nerf on the 2 sec invulnerability versus 1 hit kills from rogues (or sometimes 2 hits from dex warriors).
- nerf on stuns versus damage output of classes (as well as amount of health) that has less stun ability.

Genuinous
02-12-2013, 08:58 PM
As mentioned before, lower level ranges. Level 21's beating up lvl 16's is just a tad off balance...

1 hit kills should be managed. I know rogues should have a high dmg output, yet 1 shot kill is just ridiculous. Also some warriors are able to crit high and constantly to 1 windmill down mages as well. I would rather see a mage with slightly better survival without shield and possibly a weaker shield to compensate for it. Being 1 shotted is not cool...

Heiki
02-12-2013, 09:24 PM
I'm going to caps my main comments so the TL;DR people can get the jist of it easily. (also Sam if you're short on time).

- The only REALLY fun PvP battles I have are duels with other wars. The fights actually last long enough to have fun. My point is, UP THE HP CONTRIBUTION of each stat. War get +20 for 1 strength and dex/int gets +12 or something.

- Keep damage as it is. INTRODUCE MORE DEBUFF skills that stack so that combat does not drag on for TOO long.

- you can nerf invul. from HoR, it dosn't work anyway so it's not a big loss.

- BRING THE STUNNING DOWN a bit, maybe with diminishing returns and immunity after a while. Warriors are meant to go into melee so we always get targetted first. In group fight though I dont do jack, I just sit there being stunned until I die while rogues and mages mow me down from afar.

- MAKE BUFFS SCALE based on stats (mage shield should last longer, str boost from Vengeful should scale too) otherwise you have low lvl mages being ridiculously OP and UP at lvl cap.

- a LOT of people whine about HoR when they don't really realize it's not that powerful as you actually have to wait for 3 seconds to get the heal value a mage gets instantly. It's hardly OP and most of the whine comes because people cannot time their stun to counter this. Give us VISIBLE HEALTHBARS and pvp will be more about timing and startegy than button mashing and hope for the best.

Dragonrider023
02-12-2013, 09:27 PM
Please get ahold of rogues

asifaiab
02-12-2013, 09:46 PM
gear that makes class stats more fair
skills that make classes more equal

Haowesie
02-12-2013, 10:41 PM
I'm not sure if this can be classified as 'balance', but:
- I've experienced both warrior and rogue can hit through walls (around corners)
- Also, I've read sometime in the past that since PVP/CTF doesn't require high graphics that camera rotation could be a possibility. I don't mind so much that we don't see opponents on mini maps -- but there are a few blind spots where you can be hit and you don't even see your opponent. Having camera rotation would be awesome :)

Jcyee
02-12-2013, 11:31 PM
Basically most of the things others are saying:

Rogues and macros are the main ones that I can think of right now.

spiderpig
02-13-2013, 12:08 AM
i bet sts wont apply any of these suggestion.i havent seen sts acknowleging/applying any suggestions from forumers so far.all i see them do is look for a post with drama on it and close them or post something like read TOS etc etc..

thekdub
02-13-2013, 12:31 AM
I have meet mages that cat solo rogues, mages that can solo warriors


There are mages that can solo warriors? Maybe a level 21 mage against a level 18 warrior. If the warrior is using the right skills (which 90% of them do) and have top gear, a mage cannot come close to competing. A good warrior beats a good mage 10 out of 10 times.

spiderpig
02-13-2013, 01:05 AM
There are mages that can solo warriors? Maybe a level 21 mage against a level 18 warrior. If the warrior is using the right skills (which 90% of them do) and have top gear, a mage cannot come close to competing. A good warrior beats a good mage 10 out of 10 times.

wow

Energizeric
02-13-2013, 01:28 AM
There are mages that can solo warriors? Maybe a level 21 mage against a level 18 warrior. If the warrior is using the right skills (which 90% of them do) and have top gear, a mage cannot come close to competing. A good warrior beats a good mage 10 out of 10 times.

Agreed. If I manage to beat them it's because of one of the following:

1) It was not 1-on-1, or they got distracted while fighting me and had another player on my team get their attention.

2) They don't have good armor and I kill them in 3-4 hits (probably because they are lower level).

Origin
02-13-2013, 02:40 AM
Always said this, hasn't changed - mages need some kind of teleport skill and higher evade.

Luvaria
02-13-2013, 02:54 AM
Mages aren't as bad as a lot of you seem to think, they're just the class that requires a little more skill. With the right build and strategy, it's possible to get as many kills as a rogue. Regarding the stuns, that's basically the whole point of the mage class at this point, because:

Tanks: Take damage, heal, capture flag
Rogues: Do damage, capture flag
Mages: Stay back and stun a lot (always have charged fire)
(Tip for rogues- circling around the enemy to strike from behind seems to work quite well, if you can get your team to cooperate.)

For mages, since we aren't much use anymore to heal, you're best off with shield, to reduce the damage, especially with invulnerability, since I've found that when you hang back, the tanks are more likely to aim for you (keep stunning them).

Luvaria
02-13-2013, 02:59 AM
The only reason why most rogues got most kills in pvp is its because some or most of it are stolen kills just cuz they're faster.

I personally think that they should set up "kills" based on the damage u did, not on who Hit them last.

Rogues are the class that were made to do damage, so chances are that would only make the situation worse.
For example, if you were to do 50% or more damage to someone (ignore regen/heal/health packs) and then left (who knows why), and someone else killed the enemy, they wouldn't get the kill, and I would say that's unfair as well.

warbluefish
02-13-2013, 03:45 AM
By read all post above. all warriors and rogues are saying they r not OP. dont want to be nerfed. all Mages are saying they want power up. they r too weak. by this everyone can see what it means.

Stun. i agree stun should be nerfed for every classes. its just no fun u being stuned and could do noting. but for mages exept stun what can they do? if nerfs mages stun then their dmg must need to be increased. As i said in my post in class balbance. the consiconce of being stuned all different. a worrior has plenty time and chance to recover from stun and to kill a mage. Rogue only need one sec free from stun to kill a mage. if a mage and rogue stuned by a worrior it only means one thing . death. and if a mage and warrior stuned by a rogue. mage is no way to survive.
warrior maybe 30% of chance.

also to b killed by 1-2 hit kills by warrior and rogue in 70% of time. its just not that fun.

warbluefish
02-13-2013, 05:01 AM
Mages aren't as bad as a lot of you seem to think, they're just the class that requires a little more skill. With the right build and strategy, it's possible to get as many kills as a rogue. Regarding the stuns, that's basically the whole point of the mage class at this point, because:

Tanks: Take damage, heal, capture flag
Rogues: Do damage, capture flag
Mages: Stay back and stun a lot (always have charged fire)
(Tip for rogues- circling around the enemy to strike from behind seems to work quite well, if you can get your team to cooperate.)

For mages, since we aren't much use anymore to heal, you're best off with shield, to reduce the damage, especially with invulnerability, since I've found that when you hang back, the tanks are more likely to aim for you (keep stunning them).


just stun them? then whats the point of mage being in pvp? cant kill. cant carry the flag.

Vystirch
02-13-2013, 09:49 AM
There are mages that can solo warriors? Maybe a level 21 mage against a level 18 warrior. If the warrior is using the right skills (which 90% of them do) and have top gear, a mage cannot come close to competing. A good warrior beats a good mage 10 out of 10 times.


Agreed. If I manage to beat them it's because of one of the following:

1) It was not 1-on-1, or they got distracted while fighting me and had another player on my team get their attention.

2) They don't have good armor and I kill them in 3-4 hits (probably because they are lower level).

I PvP 1v1 often with the forerunners of PvP lb and on all counts what I stated is true. There are a couple of mages I meet wich could 1v1 any rogue with blades, rogue with bow, warrior with sword, warrior with sword and shield. And the players they were 1v1ing were big names, I won't name them but you get the idea.

GoodSyntax
02-13-2013, 10:24 AM
I guess that my biggest issue is with the Warrior class. Unlike the other two classes, Warriors are wholly self-contained - they can buff themselves, debuff enemies, heal, jump and have incredible attack range.

Rogues have no shield-like effect, instead they rely on quick kills for survivability. Rogues also run out of mana...fast! A Rogue without mana is a dead Rogue. Rogues heal skill forces them to chase down the health packs. Sure, they can place them strategically, but in the heat of battle, the delay between the time you stand over the pack to the time you actually receive the benefit is too long IMHO. Ultimately, if a Rogue cannot get a quick one or two hit kill, they have to run away, be healed by another class, or lurk behind tanks for maximum effectiveness. A solo Rogue has very low survivability because they usually have low HP and low Mana. After the initial attack surge, Rogues are spent and don't have enough stun/snare/root capabilities to escape the melee.

Sorcerers have the shield ability - but that is basically a necessity in PvP for this class. Sorcerers have many stun abilities and if used wisely can be very effective, unfortunately, their damage is relatively low, so unless you get into a 1v1 situation, another player will usually come in and snipe your kill. The biggest weakness, other than the low damage output, is the lack of a Shadow Piercer/Skyward Smash type skill. The addition of a teleport type skill would go a long way towards balance for this class. In the end, Sorcerers have become more of a support class, using their long range AoE stun abilities, but due to low HP and low Armor, cannot get into melee range without a shield, so they don't get as many kills as they should. Without support from other, higher damage classes, Sorcerers are not able to maximize kills, but they are especially good at enemy mob control with their Fireball AoE stun.

As you can see, Rogues and Sorcerers are reliant on other classes to be successful; whereas, Warriors are not.

mahatma
02-13-2013, 11:45 AM
I've noticed that rogues have insane healing if you put 4-5 points in it ...its close to impossible to kill one if they're half way decent. I'm on my lvl 10 twink mostly and I notice this a lot... its kinda overpowered heals.. imo.

(Not too positive on how they do at lvl 21 pvp though.)

Energizeric
02-13-2013, 01:16 PM
"Balanced" by definition would mean similar numbers of each class on the leaderboards. Otherwise what exactly are we balancing?

I would also ignore the top 5 in each class, because some folks are farming kills and flags. Instead, let's take a look at #6-25 on for each class on the leaderboards for both flags and kills and let's compare them. Then please give your opinions on how to balance that.

There is no need for guesswork here about how the balancing is off. We have statistics that clearly show that. What we need is suggestions for how to fix that balancing.

thekdub
02-13-2013, 02:19 PM
I PvP 1v1 often with the forerunners of PvP lb and on all counts what I stated is true. There are a couple of mages I meet wich could 1v1 any rogue with blades, rogue with bow, warrior with sword, warrior with sword and shield. And the players they were 1v1ing were big names, I won't name them but you get the idea.
Well I can name 2 mages on the leaderboards who are posting in this thread (Energizeric and myself) that say you're wrong. I have no problems with rogues. I'm talking about warriors. They absolutely cannot be beaten 1v1 by a mage if the warrior is even somewhat competent.

Madstar
02-13-2013, 02:23 PM
Well I can name 2 mages on the leaderboards who are posting in this thread (Energizeric and myself) that say you're wrong. I have no problems with rogues. I'm talking about warriors. They absolutely cannot be beaten 1v1 by a mage if the warrior is even somewhat competent.

I did beat many warriors on 1v1. :rolleyes:

Btw, i'm a mage. :angel:

Haowesie
02-13-2013, 02:47 PM
As you can see, Rogues and Sorcerers are reliant on other classes to be successful; whereas, Warriors are not.

This is also my observation. This is why warriors are excellent flag runners, rogues being second....sorcerers need escort (otherwise pray you don't bump into any opposing team).

inkredible
02-13-2013, 04:39 PM
doesnt go for everyone, but mostly yeah
as for rogues stun, id say 50-70% chance as for my warrior

inkredible
02-13-2013, 04:42 PM
Well I can name 2 mages on the leaderboards who are posting in this thread (Energizeric and myself) that say you're wrong. I have no problems with rogues. I'm talking about warriors. They absolutely cannot be beaten 1v1 by a mage if the warrior is even somewhat competent.

i dont agree, mage probably have like 100% STUN, if you cant do anything.. really IF ANYONE CANNOT do anything, your dead, unless u get out with a quick critical hit

Energizeric
02-13-2013, 05:01 PM
i dont agree, mage probably have like 100% STUN, if you cant do anything.. really IF ANYONE CANNOT do anything, your dead, unless u get out with a quick critical hit

Yes, we have the charged fireball which is 100% stun, but doesn't really do much for us. If I got the flag and I'm running and there is a warrior blocking the path, even if I hit him with a charged fireball and try to run past him, the stun doesn't last long enough for me to get past him. He will track me down and kill me no matter what I do.

Alternatively, If a warrior is coming at me and he has the flag and I am blocking his path, I can stun him and hit him with everything I got. He can continue to run past me and there is nothing I can do to kill him if he has decent gear. I'm like a fly bothering him and he can just swat me away when and if he chooses to. If the warrior chooses to stop and fight me, he can still easily kill me even while he is holding the flag. I've had times where I have hit a warrior 15-20 times with all of my skills (fireball, lightning, frost, auto attack) and he still did not die.

That is a major imbalance here. I don't see why this is not obvious to everyone.

mafiainc42
02-13-2013, 05:05 PM
Rogues max heal pack is the most op skill possible. especialy at lower lvls..they dont even need to fight just lay packs and ista 100% heal over and over and over again..

inkredible
02-13-2013, 05:06 PM
Rogues are the class that were made to do damage, so chances are that would only make the situation worse.
For example, if you were to do 50% or more damage to someone (ignore regen/heal/health packs) and then left (who knows why), and someone else killed the enemy, they wouldn't get the kill, and I would say that's unfair as well.

Well thats logical.. if they leave the game, theyre not in the game, therefore the damage made tech is made by noone so they shouldnt get the kill, can be fixable

thekdub
02-13-2013, 06:17 PM
I did beat many warriors on 1v1. :rolleyes:

Btw, i'm a mage. :angel:

A level 21 mage?

thekdub
02-13-2013, 06:22 PM
Alternatively, If a warrior is coming at me and he has the flag and I am blocking his path, I can stun him and hit him with everything I got. He can continue to run past me and there is nothing I can do to kill him if he has decent gear. I'm like a fly bothering him and he can just swat me away when and if he chooses to. If the warrior chooses to stop and fight me, he can still easily kill me even while he is holding the flag. I've had times where I have hit a warrior 15-20 times with all of my skills (fireball, lightning, frost, auto attack) and he still did not die.

That is a major imbalance here. I don't see why this is not obvious to everyone.

This pretty much sums it up regarding mages vs warriors at end game pvp. I have had this happen to me many times. I have stunned and chased warriors from my flag to their flag while unloading all the damage I can. They ignore me all the way until they cap it. Skyward smash (I'm stunned), whirlwind, and I'm dead. Top mages are mere gnats to top warriors.

thekdub
02-13-2013, 06:23 PM
i dont agree, mage probably have like 100% STUN, if you cant do anything.. really IF ANYONE CANNOT do anything, your dead, unless u get out with a quick critical hit

That would be true if I could kill the warrior with a few extra shots after the stun. Unfortunately though, the second they come out of stun, it's skyward smash and whirlwind. And it's over.

Rollo
02-13-2013, 06:52 PM
1 Hit kills need to go away.
Perma stuns need to go away.
Lvl brackets would be nice for example lvl 2-4 / 5-7 / 8-10
Possibly disable chat between teams.
Add a time limit to games to help deter kill farming for HOURS.

Heiki
02-13-2013, 09:00 PM
The problem with mages vs war is that they are too centered around crowd control and not enough on burst damage.

Mages that kill me (my gear is not good) on a regular basis are extremely well geared people and lightning crits.

Replace stun proc from lightning by something similar to rogue's stacking +10% crit and it should be a bit better already.

Slashiroth
02-13-2013, 09:03 PM
The people saying that rouge's healing ability is OP have no idea what they are talking about. It heals 20-30% if that of HP AND to top it off rouges have to track down the healing packs and.to make.matters worse there is a delay before you get the healing effect. OP? I think not.

Jackyll
02-14-2013, 12:30 AM
I want to keep this thread going the conversation is very constructive.

Me personally I suggest that they remove all stun features from PVP and raise or lower stats accordingly between all classes to even the playing field.

As a lvl 21 warrior, nothing is more frustrating than fighting (either in a group or more of a 1 vs 1 scenario) and being stunned in place. You can't move, can't retaliate just hope that something happens and you can get off HoR or something. In my personal opinion stun locking a character requires a lot of skill but also it is an unfair advantage for any class to be able to do. Now the argument I see is that if a sorcerer or rouge can not stun lock then they will be killed instantly by a warrior. That also is unfair, no class should have to rely on stun locking to survive a fight. Again going back to my suggestion of removing stun abilities and making more of a level playing field concerning dps, hp, armor all that.

Energizeric
02-14-2013, 02:13 AM
If you want to find out which classes are OP, ask yourself these questions:

1) Who has a better chance, a sorcerer against 2 rogues? or a rogue against 2 sorcerers?

2) Who has a better chance, a sorcerer against 2 warriors? or a warrior against 2 sorcerers?

3) Who has a better chance, a rogue against 2 warriors? or a warrior against 2 rogues?

Answer these questions and you will have your answer. I'm pretty sure everyone would answer #1 & #2 the same. For #3 there may be some debate, but still probably not so much.

Bless
02-14-2013, 02:18 AM
Invulnerability. I pmd u about it Sam

warbluefish
02-14-2013, 03:10 AM
For mages u have to have shield. lifegiver and stun to survive for a few seconds in pvp. not even to think about win any fight. this is the biggest problem. everyone hates stun. its not fun for anyone being stuned.
if takes stun away. there r alot of work need b done on mages.

Energizeric
02-14-2013, 05:18 AM
Here another idea for balancing the classes... The 3 classes in AL are not so different in idea than the 3 original classes in PL. The only major difference between the balancing of the 3 classes in both games is the powerful heal skills that warriors have in AL. Imagine if in PL bears had a heal skill just as good as mages did. How OP would they be?

So maybe the solution is to leave all the fighting skills and stats the same, but to simply nerf the warriors heal skill to make it like the bear's heal skill in PL (pretty weak). Then on the other hand you could make the sorcerer heal skill a bit more powerful, and leave the rogue's heal skill as is.

Then warriors would not be as hard to kill, and sorcerers would not be as easy to kill and then heal skill would actually be sufficient and we wouldn't all need to have shield to survive. Sorcerers would also become just as important as rogues and warriors, and the warriors would not run off and do their own thing. It would encourage team work and make it so the best team would be a mixture of classes and not just a whole team of warriors.

Tantg
02-14-2013, 05:31 AM
CTF should be a team effort and a win should be just registered as a win for the whole team, the kill and death of the the players should not be tabulated..

Those hero that love 1v1 should join the new 1v1 arena, which their kills and death will be recorded and published at the leader scoreboard..

GoodSyntax
02-14-2013, 10:19 AM
Cross-posting from a thought on a different thread...hopefully, it gets more visibility here:


WARRIORS
The way I see it, the Warrior class is the most egregiously unbalanced class at the moment. Unlike other classes, where there are inherent weaknesses to them in one form or another, I don't see any with this class...at least right now. From what I have seen and encountered, there are three traits that make them OP:

1) Massive heal skill
2) Bow like range on melee attacks
3) Ability to put up invincibility shield

Issue #3 is more of a problem when two or more Warriors get together and buff each other. See fix for critique.

To solve the Warrior issues, I present the following remedies:

1) Nerf heal skill in PvP or make it only affect the caster (no group heal)
2) A sword with 10m range is just plain silly, make it a more reasonable 3-4m, but leave the Windmill area upgrade intact.
3) Put a system into place that does not allow another Warrior to receive invincibility while his skill is still cooling down.

These three fixes will nearly eliminate the "Wolf Pack" attack methodology where Warriors group together, buffing invincibility on eachother, and healing eachother, which makes this group nearly impossible to take down. Reducing the attack range also allows enemies to actually flee without being killed from outside of bow/gun range.

At the end of the day, Warriors are supposed to be tanks - high HP and high Armor but slow and with lower damage than other classes. In the current configuration, they are an attack class which is unbecoming of their general archetype.



SORCERERS
Sorcerers have a fair number of stun/snare/debuff abilities, have tremendous self and group buff ability, have a tremendous mob control skill in the form of Fireball, and have enough attack range to avoid melee contact (which would be bad, for them at least). Unfortunately, Sorcerers have three major faults:

1) Low damage attribute
2) No jump/shadow piercer type skill
3) Low HP and Armor

I believe that this can be solved with the following:

1) INT should contribute to DMG stat, but not at same level as Rogue.
2) Add a teleport upgrade to Gale, so Sorcerers can run/jump the same as Rogues/Warriors.
3) Change shield skill so that there is a 2 second "reflection" ability, where any attack (Aimed Shot) reflects back to caster.

These three fixes will increase survivability and will prevent other players from always hunting and targeting Sorcerers to boost their kill stats. This will also allow Sorcerers to get more kills.

The problem that I see in PvP is that Sorcerers are still, basically, a support class. Even with the new builds being shared, Sorcerers still are very squishy and typically don't inflict enough damage to register a lot of kills. These changes will balance out the offensive capabilities of the class, but still leaves them rather squishy without shielding. In most other RPGs, Mage/Sorcerer classes are consistently high damage classes with very low HP and Armor, so this would be a better reflection of what is typical for the class.


ROGUES
Honestly, I believe the Rogue class to be the most balanced at the moment. Yes, they register a lot of kills because of Aimed Shots, but they also are quick to die and run out of mana at an alarming rate, so there are inherent weaknesses to the class (which is good). Like the Sorcerer class, Rogues are heavily reliant on a group, or 1v1 situations.

As it stands, there is really only one weakness that I can identify:

1) Missing some form of AoE stun/snare/debuff/evasion type ability

I believe that this can be fixed by introducing the following:

1) Add a Stun upgrade to Shadow Storm Shot

The reason why i suggest the Stun upgrade to SSS is because in PvP it is a completely worthless skill (long cool-down, minimal damage), so spending a skill point on this would make the skill somewhat useful during evasion - like when four Warriors are hunting you down, and you are low on HP and Mana....just saying. The problem is that other classes have evasion skills, but Rogues do not. For Rogues, it is impossible to flee from a mob because the only stun ability they have is from charged auto attacks, so at best you are talking about bow range - well within Skyward Smash, Fireball and Lightning range.


SO - I am curious what others think about my "fixes." I don't think I am being too heavy handed with any of them, so I am interested in everyone's feedback.

Cero
02-14-2013, 11:39 AM
its getting hard to play as mage with the heals and shield being nerfed.
my shield pops when being attacked by 1-2 player. it seems like the duration and 15% dmg absorb upgrades are now useless, makes me to think of dropping them and add 2points on might making it 5/5.

now my shield is only good with the 2secs invulne.

derraz
02-14-2013, 12:05 PM
remove normal attack change stun
especially bow and gun stun, stun from a far then run and stun again

uzidredar
02-14-2013, 01:45 PM
To make sorcerers somewhat useful they should be the only class with healing capacity.
Also give them a proper longer range. It is absurd that the other 2 classes have longer ranged attacks.
Oh and give us some damage if kills is the only thing that matters for the lb.

Thanks for listening though, I had totally lost my hope on PVP being balanced.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Samhayne
02-14-2013, 03:00 PM
Good stuff guys, thanks for your feedback.

We're continuing the discussion in a new thread, keeping in mind the change to add pets into PvP and correct issues with the stun immunity timer here: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?86576-Post-Pet-and-Stun-Immunity-Change-PvP-Balance