New theory on balance between the classes

[Energizeric]

I've been trying to think of the best way to fix the balance issues in PvP, and then tonight it just suddenly occurred to me....

For those of you who play Pocket Legends, you know that for the elite dungeons (like the old Mystery Mash and the current Red Dragon elite dungeon), all 3 classes are basically necessary to succeed. You need a bear (warrior) to tank, bird (archer) to inflict the big damage, and a mage to heal/revive everyone since pots cannot be used in the elite dungeons.

If you look at AL, in many of the elite dungeons you absolutely need a warrior to tank or else it becomes very difficult. You also need a rogue to inflict the big damage or else it takes forever. But I cannot think of any single instance where a sorcerer is necessary or even more helpful than another class. This is because both warriors and rogues have good healing skills.

In PL bears actually do have a healing skill, but it's so lousy and barely heals you that most players (including myself) don't even use it. So we need to rely on mages for that.

Well, the elite dungeons in PL are very similar to the PvP in AL in that you cannot use potions, so healing becomes an important issue. But because warriors and rogues have such good healing skills, mages do not really have an advantage at the one thing they are normally the best at (in most RPGs that is).

Perhaps the solution to fixing the balancing issue is as simple as just nerfing the healing skills of warriors. Make it like the bear's healing skill in PL. Then maybe they wouldn't be so OP. And on the other hand, maybe they need to make the sorcerer's healing skill a little more powerful, so that we don't get killed quite as easy. I think the rogue's healing skill is just right and can be left alone.

What do you all think??

[Snalin]

So basically your suggestion is the last 3 lines.

Why couldn't you post it under this thread
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?83292-Official-PvP-Feedback-Thread-Class-Balance

There's wayy too many people making new threads on the same issue dot dot dot

[Ruejade]

Nerf warrior heals, but increase their damage output by a little, or else they will be like pure str rogues lol...

[Xbuddyjosh]

Mages are VERY helpful, as I have noticed playing all three classes... Mages have mana heal, which will fully heal rogue and warrior mana... As they have a low amount in the first place... This keeps from spamming insane mana pots just to do the moves to deal the damage...

And devs plz read this... A revive skill on the mage would be sooo helpful!

-xbuddy

[warbluefish]

Mages are VERY helpful, as I have noticed playing all three classes... Mages have mana heal, which will fully heal rogue and warrior mana... As they have a low amount in the first place... This keeps from spamming insane mana pots just to do the moves to deal the damage...

And devs plz read this... A revive skill on the mage would be sooo helpful!

-xbuddy

There r only 4 skills can b used. one shield. one heal. one revive. and one fireball. ya. mage will b purely support class.

and also the mage exsistance is only for saveing pots money for other classes?

mages has the lowest armor and health and the worst heal. it just odd.

[GoodSyntax]

WARRIORS
The way I see it, the Warrior class is the most egregiously unbalanced class at the moment. Unlike other classes, where there are inherent weaknesses to them in one form or another, I don't see any with this class...at least right now. From what I have seen and encountered, there are three traits that make them OP:

1) Massive heal skill
2) Bow like range on melee attacks
3) Ability to put up invincibility shield

Issue #3 is more of a problem when two or more Warriors get together and buff each other. See fix for critique.

To solve the Warrior issues, I present the following remedies:

1) Nerf heal skill in PvP or make it only affect the caster (no group heal)
2) A sword with 10m range is just plain silly, make it a more reasonable 3-4m, but leave the Windmill area upgrade intact.
3) Put a system into place that does not allow another Warrior to receive invincibility while his skill is still cooling down.

These three fixes will nearly eliminate the "Wolf Pack" attack methodology where Warriors group together, buffing invincibility on eachother, and healing eachother, which makes this group nearly impossible to take down. Reducing the attack range also allows enemies to actually flee without being killed from outside of bow/gun range.

At the end of the day, Warriors are supposed to be tanks - high HP and high Armor but slow and with lower damage than other classes. In the current configuration, they are an attack class which is unbecoming of their general archetype.



SORCERERS
Sorcerers have a fair number of stun/snare/debuff abilities, have tremendous self and group buff ability, have a tremendous mob control skill in the form of Fireball, and have enough attack range to avoid melee contact (which would be bad, for them at least). Unfortunately, Sorcerers have three major faults:

1) Low damage attribute
2) No jump/shadow piercer type skill
3) Low HP and Armor

I believe that this can be solved with the following:

1) INT should contribute to DMG stat, but not at same level as Rogue.
2) Add a teleport upgrade to Gale, so Sorcerers can run/jump the same as Rogues/Warriors.
3) Change shield skill so that there is a 2 second "reflection" ability, where any attack (Aimed Shot) reflects back to caster.

These three fixes will increase survivability and will prevent other players from always hunting and targeting Sorcerers to boost their kill stats. This will also allow Sorcerers to get more kills.

The problem that I see in PvP is that Sorcerers are still, basically, a support class. Even with the new builds being shared, Sorcerers still are very squishy and typically don't inflict enough damage to register a lot of kills. These changes will balance out the offensive capabilities of the class, but still leaves them rather squishy without shielding. In most other RPGs, Mage/Sorcerer classes are consistently high damage classes with very low HP and Armor, so this would be a better reflection of what is typical for the class.


ROGUES
Honestly, I believe the Rogue class to be the most balanced at the moment. Yes, they register a lot of kills because of Aimed Shots, but they also are quick to die and run out of mana at an alarming rate, so there are inherent weaknesses to the class (which is good). Like the Sorcerer class, Rogues are heavily reliant on a group, or 1v1 situations.

As it stands, there is really only one weakness that I can identify:

1) Missing some form of AoE stun/snare/debuff/evasion type ability

I believe that this can be fixed by introducing the following:

1) Add a Stun upgrade to Shadow Storm Shot

The reason why i suggest the Stun upgrade to SSS is because in PvP it is a completely worthless skill (long cool-down, minimal damage), so spending a skill point on this would make the skill somewhat useful during evasion - like when four Warriors are hunting you down, and you are low on HP and Mana....just saying. The problem is that other classes have evasion skills, but Rogues do not. For Rogues, it is impossible to flee from a mob because the only stun ability they have is from charged auto attacks, so at best you are talking about bow range - well within Skyward Smash, Fireball and Lightning range.


SO - I am curious what others think about my "fixes." I don't think I am being too heavy handed with any of them, so I am interested in everyone's feedback.

[mafiainc42]

u fight a rogue with max heal packs??

cant be beat at lower levels insta 100% hp buff

[Bless]

1) INT should contribute to DMG stat, but not at same level as Rogue.
2) Add a teleport upgrade to Gale, so Sorcerers can run/jump the same as Rogues/Warriors.
3) Change shield skill so that there is a 2 second "reflection" ability, where any attack (Aimed Shot) reflects back to caster. :applause: you just officially signed rogues' death certificate!

On a serious note, that's making mages totally OP - more than they already are.

[Oskitopee]

I've been trying to think of the best way to fix the balance issues in PvP, and then tonight it just suddenly occurred to me....

For those of you who play Pocket Legends, you know that for the elite dungeons (like the old Mystery Mash and the current Red Dragon elite dungeon), all 3 classes are basically necessary to succeed. You need a bear (warrior) to tank, bird (archer) to inflict the big damage, and a mage to heal/revive everyone since pots cannot be used in the elite dungeons.

If you look at AL, in many of the elite dungeons you absolutely need a warrior to tank or else it becomes very difficult. You also need a rogue to inflict the big damage or else it takes forever. But I cannot think of any single instance where a sorcerer is necessary or even more helpful than another class. This is because both warriors and rogues have good healing skills.

In PL bears actually do have a healing skill, but it's so lousy and barely heals you that most players (including myself) don't even use it. So we need to rely on mages for that.

Well, the elite dungeons in PL are very similar to the PvP in AL in that you cannot use potions, so healing becomes an important issue. But because warriors and rogues have such good healing skills, mages do not really have an advantage at the one thing they are normally the best at (in most RPGs that is).

Perhaps the solution to fixing the balancing issue is as simple as just nerfing the healing skills of warriors. Make it like the bear's healing skill in PL. Then maybe they wouldn't be so OP. And on the other hand, maybe they need to make the sorcerer's healing skill a little more powerful, so that we don't get killed quite as easy. I think the rogue's healing skill is just right and can be left alone.

What do you all think??

I noobed around in elite dungeon and i used pots...

[GoodSyntax]

:applause: you just officially signed rogues' death certificate!

On a serious note, that's making mages totally OP - more than they already are.

Not really, considering that the latest update introduced stun immunity. Stun is the main offensive tactic for Sorcerers. With the new update, us Rogues won't be perma-stunned while waiting for them to poke us to death with their tree branches :-)

Honestly, with perma-stun removed, Rogues have a chance again. I wish that STS would undo the Rogue nerf, but that simply won't happen, so I would rather see equality across the class-types. The reflect ability of a mage does make head on charges more challenging, but good Rogues don't do that, we wait until the immunity, invincibility, etc. discharges before we attack. Rogues are a tactical class and have the high powered skills to get quick kills. Rogues simply will not survive poor tactics, which is the way it should be.

Warriors are the engagement class (tanking, debuffing, slow but moderate damage), Sorcerers are the attack support class (mob control, buffing, strong ranged attacks) and Rogues are the Tactical class (maximum damage, high closing speed, fast attacks, and fast kills). To stray too far from these basic descriptions would disrupt PvP.

Warriors with more DMG than Rogues? Absurd!
Sorcerers with more Armor than Warriors? Ludicrous!
Rogues with more stun skills than Sorcerers? Unheard of!

(Sounds better when said in a high pitched voice)

[Bless]

^ stun immunity? Sorry I haven't logged on since 2 days

[CosmoxKramer]

i think the easiest balance (and one they did with world of warcraft) was to bring everyone's HP to a closer level and making armor/resistance(no res in AL)/dodge be bigger survival factors. So to balance i would suggest make HP from stats be as such
STR=10 HP
DEX= 4 HP
Mage = 7 HP

Mages will still have horrible armor and die fast but it may take 1-2 more hits. Rogues have great dodge and it will only get better now with Pets in pvp, so just a slight increase in HP would help. Warriors can then leave all their skills in tact and still be a meat shield with high armor.

[TheBedtBird]

Decrease the cooldown for heal so we can survive in pvp, trust me devs it would balance the mages, make our heal more like our lightning bolt. That would balance us mages out

[Roberto077]

Considering how my healing skill for my 13 rogue gives me full health instantly, I think rogue heals should be nerfed. Warriors don't have large heals compared to their health. The horm heals about 150 health per heal (5% of my total) and juggernaut heals 300-500 (about 10%). My warrior (pure str) has about 3,000 health, so health could be nerfed but otherwise the heals are fine on warrior.

[digitalbot]

i read nothing on this not a word when saw PVP /what bout PVE? rouges dominate aggro .? or i am crazy here?

[xcainnblecterx]

From every ones different opinions here, id say none of the classes are balanced. Imo if it was 1vs1 i can usually win unless warrior or mage as been pvpin longer and knows what there doing. Ive been with one other sorc and took down 3 warriors. Then ive been with two warriors and got beat by one rouge. Some things do need fixes, other instances is just skill

[hotpimp]

Classes are all equal. People who do bad just don't know how to work their characters.

[Crabmeat]

Nerf warrior's heal a little (i'm fine with the 2s shield) and sorc shield's duration would help balance everything . From what i've experienced, classes in AL so far be it PVP/PVE were quite balanced, but the stat distribution and obesssion was what make them underpowered in some areas, for example Rogues tends to follow single path of full destruction power (max Dex for dmg+crit+dodge) ignoring hp and survivalibility and often gets beaten by a sorc 2-4hits (with shield is on).

Edit:

WARRIORS
To solve the Warrior issues, I present the following remedies:

1) Nerf heal skill in PvP AND make SHIELD only affect the caster (no group SHIELD)

+100 for this

[Crabmeat]

I would say a team of rogues against a team of warriors are on equal ground, all they need is teamwork, rogue should never tank a windmill. Step back, stun with bow, charged pierce, stun with dagger (multiple target), with those aimed shots and crits at your disposal, an active rogue's team is scary imo.

*scrap this, update practically destroyed a rogue's team.

[GoodSyntax]

*scrap this, update practically destroyed a rogue's team.

Yes, yes it did. As if Warriors weren't strong enough, add in Maliason why don't you...

[GoodSyntax]

Thanks for actually reading my long winded post Crabmeat!