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vholt
02-23-2013, 02:58 AM
Although some people may disagree with this guide, it is apparent they will use their own build. With that, this guide is meant for people new to PvP, or unsure about it. This will help give them a jumpstart into the newly implemented gamemode. Feel free to tweak the builds in any way or leave feedback or suggestions.

This guide is split into 3 parts focused around 3 different playstyles. The build is up to you and you should choose one that you are most comfortable with and the one that works most for you.

The 3 builds this guide will cover are:

Dps/Survivability - Damage/Nuking - Custom/Vholt's Build


First I will briefly cover the skills and how they are beneficial, or not, and explain their potential.


Fireball - This is a must-have for any sorc build as it is the most reliable stun.

Lightning- With the 10% damage increase, this skill has the highest base damage. However, the perks included are not as reliable such as the stun and the extra damage on crit. This will be looked at again later.

Gale Force - Many have debated this skill as useful for getting around the map quickly as this skill grants a buff to speed. While this is true, I have also appreciated that this skill has the ability to stun without charging it. However, it is not as reliable as the fireball.

Lifegiver - Great for helping teammates and survivability. Lifegiver gives life. It's pretty self-explanatory.

Frost Bolt- This skill has a slowdown which is great for runners. It also shares top 3 in highest base damage. (Lightning, Frost Bolt, Clock.) Not only that, but DoT to add on top of that.

Timeshift - This is actually quite useful. Although this skill is not favoured, this is actually a good skill. It can be used to stop players from getting to you if you need to wait for a cooldown. It slows down people who run or chase you. The DoT is actually very effective.

Curse- I would recommend not using this skill in PvP, but no one does right?

Shield - Most important skill for survivability. The usefulness is debatable as there is a 500 damage limit.



In this guide I will not discuss thoroughly on gear. This is personal preference. However most would recommend anything that maxes out your intelligence.

Dps/Survivability Build:


This build is focused on dps and survivalbility. Most people would frown upon this as rogues are supposedly to own this department but sorcs can get good dps too.

Recommended Weapon: Clever Flamestrike Rod of Assault or Charward Rod of Assault. Force works too.

For obvious reasons, you want to choose a weapon that can give you the most dps possible.



Skillset:

Fireball - 5
Frost Bolt - 3 (Jagged Ice, Shiver)
Shield - 5
Lifegiver - 2, (Empower)
Intelligence & Strength (Depends what level you are)

Obviously fireball is there to stun. The hit chance debuff is for survivability. Frost bolt is explained in the strategy. Shield and lifegiver for survivability reasons. The reason this build focuses on Intelligence and also strength is because with dps you are relying on your auto-attack. This leaves room to add in shield AND lifegiver which significantly increases chances of survivability. Also you should be using less skills if you want more auto-attacks.

Strategy:

Fireball should always be your leading attack. Whether you want to activate your shield before or after you stun is up to you. When you stun, use a charged Frost Bolt. This will slow them down so you can focus on spamming them with your auto-attack and not worry about them not getting out of your range. Heal when necessary. ALWAYS CHARGE YOUR FIREBALL As a sorc you need to rely on your stun. While they are stunned it is easier to take advantage of your high dps. Your stats and skills attributing to HP, Strength and survivablity will also make you tough to kill while your tearing down 250+ damage on them per second.




Damage/Nuking Build:

It is obvious that the sorc's biggest advantage is his damage. Many of the top players take adavantage of this however this build is a nuke build. A NUKE. YOU ARE A NUKE. This build is a little for fun because it is centered around 4 offensive skills. Hence the whole concept of being a nuke. This will make your kills fast and your hits devastating. If you feel you are dying to quickly, trying switching Timeshift for a shield or lifegiver.

Recommended Weapon: For this build you want a rifle, particularly the Watch Rifle for its high damage.


Skillset:

Fireball - 4 (Engulf, Ignite, Impact)
Lightning - 3 (Empowered Bolt, Positive Surge)
Frost Bolt - 2 (Jagged Ice)
Timeshift - 5
Intelligence & Damage, maybe crit.

The point of this build is to get the most amount of damage possible in the smallest time frame. Obviously the 3 skills with the highest base damage are chosen, and fireball for stun. For the passives, max out intelligence first and then damage or crit is up to. Crit is mainly for the lightning perk which every sorc always hopes for. However sorcs generally have low crit so the usefulness of the Positive Surge perk is debatable.

Strategy:

Again, fireball to lead. You need to stun first to get the upper hand. Once you stun, all hell breaks loose. I recommend using a charged Timeshift. This ensures they won't escape and that the DoT kicks in, which can be very devastating. Then spam Frost Bolt and Lightning for a quick burst of damage. Use Rifle in between. If it's a rogue then spam skills and rifle. They should die quickly. If it's a warrior you may need to charge with fireball a couple of times to ensure he remains stunned. The problem with this build is you will use mana quickly and you have no survivability attributes. So kill or be killed! The point of this build is to kill the opponent before they kill you.


Finally,

Vholt's Build

This build is my own personal build. It is recommended for dominating 1v1s. Some pros may look at this and laugh, because their build is so much better. I don't mind, this build works for me. Skills are chosen for their short cooldowns.

Recommended Weapon: I personally like staffs. Most sorcs prefer the rifle for their range and damage. They are also useful in kiting. However the Charward rod just looks so cool.


Skillset:

Fireball - 5
Frostbolt - 3 (Jagged Ice, Shiver)
Lightning - 3 (Empowered Bolt, Positive Surge)
Shield - 5
Intelligence & Crit

Fireball again. It should be obvious by now. Frost Bolt i had a hard time debating if i should use this or timeshift. They both offer DoT, slowdown, and same amount of damage. However, an opponent can escape the Timeshift sphere, but not escape the effects of Frost Bolt. Also, cooldown times. Lightning for damage purposes. It also does not require aim. Opponents cannot outrun lightning. I also get Positive Surge because it's good to hope for but i recommend using a pet like Ribbit or Colton to get your crit up to useable standards. Shield for survivability. I do sometimes switch lightning for gale because gale offers another stun, however the stun is not reliable and not long enough.

Strategy:

This is build is quite flexible. Obviously lead with fireball to stun. If they like to run a lot I can charge my frost bolt to slow them down. If it's a warrior I charge my lightning and prayyyy that i get a critical. Shield to avoid getting 1 shotted by aim shot. I'm more a guy who spams a lot and that seems to work out for me. However in a typical 1v1 this is my routine: Charge fireball, charge frost bolt, quick lightning, spam auto-attack, spam skills as they fully recharge. After the first 2 charges I barely charge again, unless i feel this warrior has a million health. Then i charge fireball to stun and spam away.


Vholt's Build v2

This is another build I use that is more effective in fighting in groups. I make use of the slowdown from Timeshift to keep my opponents in one area. Stick with the team with this build. In this build, i definitely favour staffs/rods, because of the longer cooldowns.

Skillset:

Fireball - 5
Gale Force - 4 (No Outward Squall)
Timeshift - 5
Shield - 4 (No Displacement Wave)
Intelligence

I use fireball for the stun and gale force for its speed buff and chance to stun. Timeshift is for slowdown and shield for survivability reasons.


Strategy

Lead with charged fireball as always, then i spam or charge timeshift. This depends if i think they have a lot of health or not. Gale Force is there to spam and while my skills are cooling down i spam my Charward Rod. Sometimes in this build i lead with Gale Force. If i get the stun then i follow with charged fireball and its happy days.



To conclude I will cover general tips, tricks and tactics you should know:

- Always lead with charge fireball to stun. General rule for me is whoever hits first wins, so always hit first!

-Sometimes rogues will dash or warriors will skyward smash, this can be predicted on warriors because when they charge their weapon turns to a sledgehammer. In this case, or anytime you suspect it, simply charge your fireball, let them hit you (That's right, you gotta take it like a man) and then shoot. You can't miss they are right beside you.

-If you see them in a group and you are alone, run.

-Stick with the team. Pretty obvious.

-Sometimes a charged auto-attack will stun. This is more prominent in rifles than staffs. So only charge to stun with a rifle not a staff.

-Spam spam spam

-Don't kite warriors it doesn't work. They will use skyward smash or throwing axe and then kill you and then laugh at you for "running away"

-However kite them to your teammates. It's funny.

-Use corners effectively. See someone around a corner? Wait for them to come around and strike with a charged fireball

-Stay near the center, because there is a health pack there.

-Don't go for the flag. Unless you are using a flag running build. But then why are you here :o

-If you want to rely on the lightning crit, get your crit to above 10% and use ribbit or colton


This reaches the end of my guide. I hope you all enjoyed or gained from this guide. If you didn't I'm sorry i wasn't able to help. I appreciate you reading this



Thanks,
Vholt



[Coming Soon]

-How to beat specific classes

-Gear

-How to strike first



Edit Log:

-February 23,2013 Minor Adjustments to grammar, info. Addition of Vholt's build v2

Alhuntrazeck
02-23-2013, 03:10 AM
VERY nice guide, simply excellent. Great of you to spend your time on this! BTW, if you'd posted this in the General Section and PMed Sam, you'd have got it into the guide section. Never mind, works well here too! Mages can finally be equal with the rest in PvP :D

vholt
02-23-2013, 03:10 AM
My build is really similar to yours, except I have a bit of strength because I decided I got 1-hitted too much by rogues (and still do).
Though, I really don't think it was a good idea since it takes away a lot of damage. Either way, I can't change anything because I'm out of free plat ;).


Do you use shield? Shield usually negates 1 shots.

vholt
02-23-2013, 03:11 AM
VERY nice guide, simply excellent. Great of you to spend your time on this! BTW, if you'd posted this in the General Section and PMed Sam, you'd have got it into the guide section. Never mind, works well here too! Mages can finally be equal with the rest in PvP :D

Shhh only sorcs should know ;P

Cero
02-23-2013, 10:07 AM
good job! with this there is a possibility that mage class population will grow.

Linkincena
02-25-2013, 05:27 AM
Gonna try gale- lightning build would reply back when reach lvl 26.. nice post vholt ..;)

xcainnblecterx
02-25-2013, 04:43 PM
One thing id like to point out for those who dont know, is if you want your auto attacks to do more damage go for dps. If you want.your skills to do more damage go for dmg. Ive been asked this and seen people asking what the difference of dps and dmg is

vholt
02-25-2013, 09:50 PM
One thing id like to point out for those who dont know, is if you want your auto attacks to do more damage go for dps. If you want.your skills to do more damage go for dmg. Ive been asked this and seen people asking what the difference of dps and dmg is


Dps does not necessarily mean higher auto attack damage. You probably already know dps means damage per second. This means having a higher damage per second means you auto attack faster. Damage is what is considered in the actual damage output for one attack.

xcainnblecterx
02-26-2013, 04:27 AM
Dps does not necessarily mean higher auto attack damage. You probably already know dps means damage per second. This means having a higher damage per second means you auto attack faster. Damage is what is considered in the actual damage output for one attack.

Dps as you say is higher damage per second. So as many times you push your attack button (not skills) in seconds (one) is the amount of damagr it does. I dont think it increases your attack speed.at all. As for dmg being total out put of damage may be true, but equip a wep with very high dmg and see how much harder your skills hit (also why most sorc were using watch rifle in pvp, horrible dps, excellent dmg)

vholt
02-26-2013, 08:59 PM
Dps as you say is higher damage per second. So as many times you push your attack button (not skills) in seconds (one) is the amount of damagr it does. I dont think it increases your attack speed.at all. As for dmg being total out put of damage may be true, but equip a wep with very high dmg and see how much harder your skills hit (also why most sorc were using watch rifle in pvp, horrible dps, excellent dmg)

Oops, sorry i think it makes more sense if i say weapon that attacks faster can mean higher dps.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?80770-Hidden-Weapon-Attack-speed

This shows why flamestrike offers higher dps.

uzidredar
02-28-2013, 07:09 PM
Awesome guide thanks :thumbup:

I'm happy to see someone appreciating Time shift for PVP. I'm not sure the slowdown works every time but it is a great dot weapon on the convoluted mid free for all messy fights.
I'm running fire, time, frost and heal and I have been able to improve my k/d ratio dramatically (1.5 to 1). Granted this is is on weird mixed groups as I am level 23 but I feel I can hold my ground well these days.

Let's see what the update brings now. I have a good feeling that sorcs are going to rule the high end PVP :D

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

vholt
03-16-2013, 10:43 PM
Awesome guide thanks :thumbup:

I'm happy to see someone appreciating Time shift for PVP. I'm not sure the slowdown works every time but it is a great dot weapon on the convoluted mid free for all messy fights.
I'm running fire, time, frost and heal and I have been able to improve my k/d ratio dramatically (1.5 to 1). Granted this is is on weird mixed groups as I am level 23 but I feel I can hold my ground well these days.

Let's see what the update brings now. I have a good feeling that sorcs are going to rule the high end PVP :D

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Yeah i love using timeshift on an enemy who wants to hunt me down, because it stops them in their tracks. They don't wanna cross the timeshift sphere, it's like a magical forcefield :D

Fairwind
04-06-2013, 05:25 AM
Not bad, but overly common. Although I do like your builds, and have seen them used well, I still like mine more. Try a build, built around lb crits, using Ribbit, and TS delay, impact and dot... All at once. It's like aimed shot for mages. With a dash of heals and shield for survivability. (: I have a guide somewhere on here, and would love for you to test/improve/ or implement into your builds.

- Fairwind, A.K.A Bleuballs
O--)

Deadroth
04-06-2013, 05:36 AM
Although some people may disagree with this guide, it is apparent they will use their own build. With that, this guide is meant for people new to PvP, or unsure about it. This will help give them a jumpstart into the newly implemented gamemode. Feel free to tweak the builds in any way or leave feedback or suggestions.

This guide is split into 3 parts focused around 3 different playstyles. The build is up to you and you should choose one that you are most comfortable with and the one that works most for you.

The 3 builds this guide will cover are:

Dps/Survivability - Damage/Nuking - Custom/Vholt's Build


First I will briefly cover the skills and how they are beneficial, or not, and explain their potential.


Fireball - This is a must-have for any sorc build as it is the most reliable stun.

Lightning- With the 10% damage increase, this skill has the highest base damage. However, the perks included are not as reliable such as the stun and the extra damage on crit. This will be looked at again later.

Gale Force - Many have debated this skill as useful for getting around the map quickly as this skill grants a buff to speed. While this is true, I have also appreciated that this skill has the ability to stun without charging it. However, it is not as reliable as the fireball.

Lifegiver - Great for helping teammates and survivability. Lifegiver gives life. It's pretty self-explanatory.

Frost Bolt- This skill has a slowdown which is great for runners. It also shares top 3 in highest base damage. (Lightning, Frost Bolt, Clock.) Not only that, but DoT to add on top of that.

Timeshift - This is actually quite useful. Although this skill is not favoured, this is actually a good skill. It can be used to stop players from getting to you if you need to wait for a cooldown. It slows down people who run or chase you. The DoT is actually very effective.

Curse- I would recommend not using this skill in PvP, but no one does right?

Shield - Most important skill for survivability. The usefulness is debatable as there is a 500 damage limit.



In this guide I will not discuss thoroughly on gear. This is personal preference. However most would recommend anything that maxes out your intelligence.

Dps/Survivability Build:


This build is focused on dps and survivalbility. Most people would frown upon this as rogues are supposedly to own this department but sorcs can get good dps too.

Recommended Weapon: Clever Flamestrike Rod of Assault or Charward Rod of Assault. Force works too.

For obvious reasons, you want to choose a weapon that can give you the most dps possible.



Skillset:

Fireball - 5
Frost Bolt - 3 (Jagged Ice, Shiver)
Shield - 5
Lifegiver - 2, (Empower)
Intelligence & Strength (Depends what level you are)

Obviously fireball is there to stun. The hit chance debuff is for survivability. Frost bolt is explained in the strategy. Shield and lifegiver for survivability reasons. The reason this build focuses on Intelligence and also strength is because with dps you are relying on your auto-attack. This leaves room to add in shield AND lifegiver which significantly increases chances of survivability. Also you should be using less skills if you want more auto-attacks.

Strategy:

Fireball should always be your leading attack. Whether you want to activate your shield before or after you stun is up to you. When you stun, use a charged Frost Bolt. This will slow them down so you can focus on spamming them with your auto-attack and not worry about them not getting out of your range. Heal when necessary. ALWAYS CHARGE YOUR FIREBALL As a sorc you need to rely on your stun. While they are stunned it is easier to take advantage of your high dps. Your stats and skills attributing to HP, Strength and survivablity will also make you tough to kill while your tearing down 250+ damage on them per second.




Damage/Nuking Build:

It is obvious that the sorc's biggest advantage is his damage. Many of the top players take adavantage of this however this build is a nuke build. A NUKE. YOU ARE A NUKE. This build is a little for fun because it is centered around 4 offensive skills. Hence the whole concept of being a nuke. This will make your kills fast and your hits devastating. If you feel you are dying to quickly, trying switching Timeshift for a shield or lifegiver.

Recommended Weapon: For this build you want a rifle, particularly the Watch Rifle for its high damage.


Skillset:

Fireball - 4 (Engulf, Ignite, Impact)
Lightning - 3 (Empowered Bolt, Positive Surge)
Frost Bolt - 2 (Jagged Ice)
Timeshift - 5
Intelligence & Damage, maybe crit.

The point of this build is to get the most amount of damage possible in the smallest time frame. Obviously the 3 skills with the highest base damage are chosen, and fireball for stun. For the passives, max out intelligence first and then damage or crit is up to. Crit is mainly for the lightning perk which every sorc always hopes for. However sorcs generally have low crit so the usefulness of the Positive Surge perk is debatable.

Strategy:

Again, fireball to lead. You need to stun first to get the upper hand. Once you stun, all hell breaks loose. I recommend using a charged Timeshift. This ensures they won't escape and that the DoT kicks in, which can be very devastating. Then spam Frost Bolt and Lightning for a quick burst of damage. Use Rifle in between. If it's a rogue then spam skills and rifle. They should die quickly. If it's a warrior you may need to charge with fireball a couple of times to ensure he remains stunned. The problem with this build is you will use mana quickly and you have no survivability attributes. So kill or be killed! The point of this build is to kill the opponent before they kill you.


Finally,

Vholt's Build

This build is my own personal build. It is recommended for dominating 1v1s. Some pros may look at this and laugh, because their build is so much better. I don't mind, this build works for me. Skills are chosen for their short cooldowns.

Recommended Weapon: I personally like staffs. Most sorcs prefer the rifle for their range and damage. They are also useful in kiting. However the Charward rod just looks so cool.


Skillset:

Fireball - 5
Frostbolt - 3 (Jagged Ice, Shiver)
Lightning - 3 (Empowered Bolt, Positive Surge)
Shield - 5
Intelligence & Crit

Fireball again. It should be obvious by now. Frost Bolt i had a hard time debating if i should use this or timeshift. They both offer DoT, slowdown, and same amount of damage. However, an opponent can escape the Timeshift sphere, but not escape the effects of Frost Bolt. Also, cooldown times. Lightning for damage purposes. It also does not require aim. Opponents cannot outrun lightning. I also get Positive Surge because it's good to hope for but i recommend using a pet like Ribbit or Colton to get your crit up to useable standards. Shield for survivability. I do sometimes switch lightning for gale because gale offers another stun, however the stun is not reliable and not long enough.

Strategy:

This is build is quite flexible. Obviously lead with fireball to stun. If they like to run a lot I can charge my frost bolt to slow them down. If it's a warrior I charge my lightning and prayyyy that i get a critical. Shield to avoid getting 1 shotted by aim shot. I'm more a guy who spams a lot and that seems to work out for me. However in a typical 1v1 this is my routine: Charge fireball, charge frost bolt, quick lightning, spam auto-attack, spam skills as they fully recharge. After the first 2 charges I barely charge again, unless i feel this warrior has a million health. Then i charge fireball to stun and spam away.


Vholt's Build v2

This is another build I use that is more effective in fighting in groups. I make use of the slowdown from Timeshift to keep my opponents in one area. Stick with the team with this build. In this build, i definitely favour staffs/rods, because of the longer cooldowns.

Skillset:

Fireball - 5
Gale Force - 4 (No Outward Squall)
Timeshift - 5
Shield - 4 (No Displacement Wave)
Intelligence

I use fireball for the stun and gale force for its speed buff and chance to stun. Timeshift is for slowdown and shield for survivability reasons.


Strategy

Lead with charged fireball as always, then i spam or charge timeshift. This depends if i think they have a lot of health or not. Gale Force is there to spam and while my skills are cooling down i spam my Charward Rod. Sometimes in this build i lead with Gale Force. If i get the stun then i follow with charged fireball and its happy days.



To conclude I will cover general tips, tricks and tactics you should know:

- Always lead with charge fireball to stun. General rule for me is whoever hits first wins, so always hit first!

-Sometimes rogues will dash or warriors will skyward smash, this can be predicted on warriors because when they charge their weapon turns to a sledgehammer. In this case, or anytime you suspect it, simply charge your fireball, let them hit you (That's right, you gotta take it like a man) and then shoot. You can't miss they are right beside you.

-If you see them in a group and you are alone, run.

-Stick with the team. Pretty obvious.

-Sometimes a charged auto-attack will stun. This is more prominent in rifles than staffs. So only charge to stun with a rifle not a staff.

-Spam spam spam

-Don't kite warriors it doesn't work. They will use skyward smash or throwing axe and then kill you and then laugh at you for "running away"

-However kite them to your teammates. It's funny.

-Use corners effectively. See someone around a corner? Wait for them to come around and strike with a charged fireball

-Stay near the center, because there is a health pack there.

-Don't go for the flag. Unless you are using a flag running build. But then why are you here :o

-If you want to rely on the lightning crit, get your crit to above 10% and use ribbit or colton


This reaches the end of my guide. I hope you all enjoyed or gained from this guide. If you didn't I'm sorry i wasn't able to help. I appreciate you reading this



Thanks,
Vholt



[Coming Soon]

-How to beat specific classes

-Gear

-How to strike first



Edit Log:

-February 23,2013 Minor Adjustments to grammar, info. Addition of Vholt's build v2

Damage Nuking is also good for PVE tho!!! Thats why i need :D

vholt
04-07-2013, 02:12 PM
Not bad, but overly common. Although I do like your builds, and have seen them used well, I still like mine more. Try a build, built around lb crits, using Ribbit, and TS delay, impact and dot... All at once. It's like aimed shot for mages. With a dash of heals and shield for survivability. (: I have a guide somewhere on here, and would love for you to test/improve/ or implement into your builds.

- Fairwind, A.K.A Bleuballs
O--)

Will do! Sounds like something effective, so i'll be sure to add it with any success!

Caiahar
04-08-2013, 10:38 PM
I like it! But I don't use shield, as shield can be easily broken. And no life? Isn't that almost necessary?

vholt
04-08-2013, 11:25 PM
I like it! But I don't use shield, as shield can be easily broken. And no life? Isn't that almost necessary?

Oh man, is this guide very outdated.. After numerous updates, and the latest level cap increase, many tips have become irrelevant. I'm going to have a lot of work to do, to keep this updated :dejection:

Genuinous
04-09-2013, 07:35 AM
I like it! But I don't use shield, as shield can be easily broken. And no life? Isn't that almost necessary?

You can still go around with 3 attack + shield, going full int with str items and mythic

pros:
-high dmg output
-large number of kills in groups
-can kill rogues/mages easy if your pet can stun them too

cons:
-you are quite dead in 1v1 situations when pet stun fails and opponent got heal
-no heal (teammates wont like you, you rely on their heal)
-quite fragile, if someone comes after you in group fights, better run
-will run out of mana quite often, have to catch vb or pick up packs (vb restores awesome amount of mana if you play it smart)

how to play:
-find a team with at least 2 warriors, the more the better for you
-stay behind them, stun and ks everything that moves
-if there are more warriors on the other team, quit

So this build is far from ideal, but you can use it to kill farm effectively. You will however rely on a good team and will be quite weak in 1v1

Deadroth
04-09-2013, 08:16 AM
You can still go around with 3 attack + shield, going full int with str items and mythic

pros:
-high dmg output
-large number of kills in groups
-can kill rogues/mages easy if your pet can stun them too

cons:
-you are quite dead in 1v1 situations when pet stun fails and opponent got heal
-no heal (teammates wont like you, you rely on their heal)
-quite fragile, if someone comes after you in group fights, better run
-will run out of mana quite often, have to catch vb or pick up packs (vb restores awesome amount of mana if you play it smart)

how to play:
-find a team with at least 2 warriors, the more the better for you
-stay behind them, stun and ks everything that moves
-if there are more warriors on the other team, quit

So this build is far from ideal, but you can use it to kill farm effectively. You will however rely on a good team and will be quite weak in 1v1

Exactly :)

U can have also pet with freezing like glac or snaggle