My thoughts on the latest changes/update

[Energizeric]

Well, I finally leveled up to 26 and decided I would do some PvP for the first time since before the Kraken Isles expansion. My record prior to this was 2500-1700, but I'm actually better than that as I was 500-600 at one point, and obviously much better since that time.

So in about 20 minutes I got 4 kills and died about 20 times. I can literally land hundreds of hits on opponents for a period of 5 minutes and not get a single kill. Battles with warriors are the worst. It feels like there is really no way to kill them. In fact, this is of great concern since 3 out of every 4 players in PvP is a warrior. I used to leave the game when I saw that and find a different game. But this time I changed games about a dozen times over a half hour before I finally played one, and they were all the same.... 3-4 warriors on each side, a rogue here and there, and maybe one other mage besides myself. It was all warriors. It used to take 15-20 hits to kill a warrior, but now I'm thinking it may take 50. And of course there is no way to survive that long.

It did not feel like warriors were hitting any less hard than before. Once that windmill started going I would become stunned and that was all. No way to escape it. Rogues don't one-hit me anymore. Now they just take about 80% of my health on that first shot. And so I can usually beat them as I'm able to stun them after that time and finish them off. So my 4 kills were all rogues. But the warriors I was not able to kill, not even once.

I'm going to play some more today, but if this continues I guess I will just go back to PvE and forget about PvP. It's a shame because I need the PvP achievements to compete for top sorcerer. Maybe I'll just concentrate on PvE kills and get a flag for that leaderboard. :)

[Jackyll]

As a level 26 warrior in full capped gear I can honestly say i've been beat by a sorcerer. With the stun lock/push system he beat me pretty soundly. It was a good exchange if i got within range, he was toast, but if he could push me back stun lock me, I was a gonner. I feel PvP is pretty balanced. Ask around to the top PvP sorcerers and find one that will teach you that trick lol.

[Cero]

As a level 26 warrior in full capped gear I can honestly say i've been beat by a sorcerer. With the stun lock/push system he beat me pretty soundly. It was a good exchange if i got within range, he was toast, but if he could push me back stun lock me, I was a gonner. I feel PvP is pretty balanced. Ask around to the top PvP sorcerers and find one that will teach you that trick lol.

because you are alone, 1v1 with that mage but the Topic Starter stated that each game he joins their are 3-4warriors holdinghands like BFFs.

[Vystirch]

Yah, what you say is true, I need to make a new "my newest thoughts on PvP" also, I think I will soon.

[Jackyll]

It is TEAM based PvP. No one, including me, can go heads up agianst another team mobbing together. You're not Superman, so because you get killed by a mob don't come on forums complaining. When I see a team mobbing together i move away, come up behind (this is where sorcerers and rogues will be) and take them out. OR push through the warrior and get to them. You have to THINK and adapt in PvP, you can't just run in and think you're gonna win.

[Infrico]

come up behind

Dang, did I read that right? o.o

[Jackyll]

come up behind

Dang, did I read that right? o.o

Yep, come up from behind....err.......shush rico you know what i'm saying lol.

[Energizeric]

It is TEAM based PvP. No one, including me, can go heads up agianst another team mobbing together. You're not Superman, so because you get killed by a mob don't come on forums complaining. When I see a team mobbing together i move away.....

Sorcerers are too slow to move away. If there are any warriors in that mob, they will just make a big jump, sometimes even over a wall, and then I will become stunned long before they are even near me. Warriors have incredible range. Their swords are about 50 feet long, while I can only shoot my fireball about 40 feet. So unless they mess up I am dead. Furthermore, even if I manage to stun them with a fireball, and then I keep running, when they come out of the stun 2.5 seconds later they can still always catch up to me if they choose to and then stun me. Basically there is no way to win that battle for me unless the warrior has really crappy gear or does not know what he is doing at all.

And BTW, I was in a situation multiple times (before and after the update) where myself and another sorcerer were trapped in the spawn room by one warrior by himself, and it was still a losing cause as he was able to beat us both pretty easily.

[wolfkult]

Sorc are the hardest class to play solo, that is true. In a group they are pretty much the best because of the DPS/aoe/crowdcontrol/heals. If/when they expand to a more open format (no walls, further camera angles) and people roll together in groups sorcs are going to be awesome.

[Energizeric]

So I played for about another hour. I kept popping in and out of games whenever I would see more than 2 warriors on the other team. After about an hour of searching for a game, I found a game where the other team consisted of a warrior, 3 rogues and a mage. Our team was myself and 4 rogues. So only 1 warrior overall which was awesome. The result in that game was I had about 25 kills and 4 flags and we won. I can still take out a rogue most of the time.

And BTW, when fighting a rogue it doesn't seem like much has changed since the update. They can still one-hit me on occasion (only some very powerful rogues I guess) and I have 2600 health. But most of the time with that initial hit they will only take around half of my health, and then I can stun them, health myself, and then chop them down. In the end I'd say I can beat most rogues about 75% of the time. I actually think they would do better if they respec (the way I did) for more health and slightly less damage. I think instead they only concentrate on damage and mana, and their health is really low so they are pretty squishy.

There are some rogues who will take me out most of the time though, so I think the reason I win over most rogues is simply that I have top gear and they don't, which is what you would expect. So I don't think there is much of a balancing issue here. I think the issue goes back to warriors. If they only nerf a warriors range but leave everything else, that would probably fix the problem. The actual range should match the visual, meaning if I can't see the sword near me, then they didn't hit me. The way it is now the sword visually appears so far away, yet somehow I get hit and killed anyway. That's not how it should be.

[gundamsone]

It takes a sorcerer 2-3 spells + an auto hit or two to down a rogue so it's not hard. Our dodge is overrated and we actually don't dodge as much as we should.

Most mages complain about their class being underpowered which is true but you're asking for a buff in a 5v5 game. It's really too hard to balance things perfectly in a 5v5 game...
If let's say they increased your hp/armor/damage then your class might be the new "OP".

What STS has to work on is changing the rules & game mechanics to fix this this issue...perhaps the warrior shield buff cannot be applied on an ally or the effect will only heal the ally and not make them invincible.
Perhaps you cannot receive an invicibility buff

[gundamsone]

O and nerf the windmill...it's hitting more than my aimshot atm. Fought multiple warriors who I could not even get close to in a fight b/c theyd 1 hit me constantly.
Takes me 1200 mana to down a warrior in a 1v1 situation whereas if I make 1 mistake and get close they kill me.

Which brings me to another issue, skills play an important factor in pvp but rogues are the only class that run out of mana constantly.
When this happens we have 2 options: 1. run away from the battle to regen mana or find a mana pack (which isn't good sportmanship) 2. suicide and die so we get our mana back

Warriors have infinite mana with that 1 skill while mages usually die before they use up all their mana.
So i'm proposing 2 solutions.
1. Give our medpacks a mana boost or higher regen capability because I see this as discrimination and unequality.
2. Nerf the mana regen skill on warrior then we won't have to worry about warriors spamming windmill and skysmash 25/7.
Tbh #2 would be a better solution then mages would stand more of a chance and be more useful. Warriors would still be as OP but they'd have to fight smartly and not constantly spam their skills whenever available.

[Lady_Pebbles]

I agree 100% with Gundamsone and Ene.

[Jackyll]

The only reason rogues run out of mana so fast is because there are almost no cooldown times in skills, so you can essentially keep shooting aimed/nox ect. Until something hits and move on, but if it doesn't or it's timed wrong then yeah, you're toast. But thats with every class. And the warriors Vengful Blood, the restores mana and buffs, has a LONG cooldown time. So we can't abuse it

[Energizeric]

So I played for a few more hours today. There results are this:

90 kills, 210 deaths :(

Before the update I was running about 2/1 ratio, so this is rather disappointing.

I think the big issue is the range the warriors have. I have no problem with rogues having that great range since they are supposed to be quick, fast and have the great leaping ability. But when they leap at me, I have a chance to fight them off, stun them, and even kills them. But when a warrior can reach out and hit me from 50 feet away, there is no way to fight against that. Don't nerf the warriors damage, nerf the reach.

[bluotaku]

The only reason rogues run out of mana so fast is because there are almost no cooldown times in skills, so you can essentially keep shooting aimed/nox ect. Until something hits and move on, but if it doesn't or it's timed wrong then yeah, you're toast. But thats with every class. And the warriors Vengful Blood, the restores mana and buffs, has a LONG cooldown time. So we can't abuse it

VB with 25% upgrade lasts 12.5 sec. CD is 30 sec. That's 17.5 sec without VB (CD starts right after you cast, not when the skill ends). 12.5/17.5 ratio is not bad at all.

Also, you can spam all of your skills in that 17.5 CD and not run out of mana.

4 SS = 205 mana
2 WW = 120 mana
2 Hor = 82 mana
Total = 407 mana

And then you VB and you're back to full. What warrior doesn't have more than 407 mana?

Edited calculations...got CD times on some skills wrong.

[Energizeric]

Well I just had to play 2 more hours to get the 10 more kills I needed for 2600. Pretty said. Must have died 50 times in that time. It's a struggle for sorcerers. I have the best gear too. I can't imagine what it must be like for those who don't, or for a level 25 sorcerer. I see sorcerers walking around town who got records of like 15 kills, 250 losses and I laugh, but I'm guessing that is somewhat average for a sorcerer who's not a pro.

[SouLBlizzard]

Once you see warrior,stun and run LOL

[Energizeric]

Once you see warrior,stun and run LOL

Problem is mages run like an old man with a bad back and warriors run like usain bolt. LOL

[Chaokaban]

True.When the windmill is used it can minus a lot of health,especially when crit.Sometimes it might one hit kill someone

[Deadbite]

It is TEAM based PvP. No one, including me, can go heads up agianst another team mobbing together. You're not Superman, so because you get killed by a mob don't come on forums complaining. When I see a team mobbing together i move away, come up behind (this is where sorcerers and rogues will be) and take them out. OR push through the warrior and get to them. You have to THINK and adapt in PvP, you can't just run in and think you're gonna win.

And of course he's a warrior.

[Raxin]

Stop QQin dude its unbecoming of you sir

[Energizeric]

Update:

Well, I played for about 2 more hours last night, and about half way through that run I finally figured it all out!!!

I'm not going to share my secrets here because I certainly put in the time of trying many different things, but there was something very fundamental that I was not doing correctly, and I think most mages are probably making the same mistakes that I was making. But with one major correction in approach I was able to start defeating warriors 1-on-1. In fact, it got to the point in a couple of the games that I started chasing warriors in their own spawn room and taking them down. I'm not even kidding...

25534

Let's just say that with the right build and fighting approach, sorcerers can indeed take on warriors 1-on-1. The problem is that the approach you need to take is not a logical one at all. Once I made this adjustment, I had a 4-1 K/D ratio. At one point I even went an entire game without one single death -- something I never managed before. For the first time I also kept running out of mana. I can say this: if you are a full INT sorcerer and you are constantly running out of mana in PvP, then you are doing something right because it means you are staying alive for a long time.

[Haowesie]

Update:
Well, I played for about 2 more hours last night, and about half way through that run I finally figured it all out!!!


Warriors are crit'ing all the time because the glitch build was posted by someone... Share some love with us squishy sorcerers ;)

[bluotaku]

Does your strategy go anything like this?

1. Fireball stun
2. Charged time
3. Run around only in the area of your time with snare while attacking
4. Restun with fireball when possible
5. Redrop time if needed
6. Heal if needed

[Energizeric]

Does your strategy go anything like this?

1. Fireball stun
2. Charged time
3. Run around only in the area of your time with snare while attacking
4. Restun with fireball when possible
5. Redrop time if needed
6. Heal if needed

Similar to my old approach which didn't work very well. Except I don't have time, I have frost instead.

[Cero]

warrior: most have sky-windmill-vengefull-horn
but the skill patern they use vary with each warrior.
most will just jump-horn-vengefull-windmill or vengefull-jump-horn-windmill.
but whatever they do first they always jump to get near and shield up.

here is what i do when i fight warrior 1v1.

-kite them and let them buff horn and wait for the shield go down. most ill just keep my distance(with my shield up)
-buff crits from colton then unleash 3skill attacks.
lightning-frost-fireball. i dont charge them just spam and let colton do the stun.

on my second wave i do
lightning-attack-frost-attack-fireball-attack.(this attack is credited to dubstepticon he master the gun proc)
-pray for weapon proc

note:
we can only have a chance to kill a warrior if they shielded up early in the fight. so this kind of play can be countered if he is smart and experienced.
always wait for shield to go down you have 13seconds to take down a warrior til Horn CDs.

how to kite?
shoot your gun and let it proc.
cast you frost

[uzidredar]

Does your strategy go anything like this?

1. Fireball stun
2. Charged time
3. Run around only in the area of your time with snare while attacking
4. Restun with fireball when possible
5. Redrop time if needed
6. Heal if needed

This is working like a charm for me in the lvl 25 bracket with colton and some crappy gear. Let's see how it works at 26

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Chaokaban]

We'll see if warriors or socerers rule.

[Chaokaban]

I am a warrior.I have those four skills which cero listed.For me when I play pvp,I will minus some health before healing.

[Chaokaban]

Sometimes I find socerers irritating.They have the shield which lasts so long,they love stunning people,and they will escape.

[GoodSyntax]

Sometimes I find socerers irritating.They have the shield which lasts so long,they love stunning people,and they will escape.

This was the basis of my post last week. Sorcerers and Warriors have shielding, mana regen, health regen but Rogues do not (some Rogues have health regen). Unfortunately, the damage rebalancing disproportionately affects Rogues because we don't have any long term stuns or snares (like fireball, time, windmill, etc), so we cannot disengage from a group. When we try to flee, Warriors just Skyward to close and Windmill to kill, and Sorcerers just Fireball, Lightning and a couple of autos to finish us off.

Rogues, since the update, are very squishy!

Early in PvP, my KDR was terrible, because I was still learning the tactics necessary for Rogues to survive. Just before the patch, I was probably about 3 or 4:1, which is reasonable for a Rogue. Since the update, I might be 1:1.....maybe. Everything comes down to damage reduction because I can kill some Warriors (not the top geared ones), but by the time the fight is over, I'm out of mana. It doesn't help that my lv 23 keeps joining up in lv 25/26 games.

I have learned that since the update, Rogues simply cannot solo as well, and sneak attacks don't work as often as they used to. We are now heavily reliant on good groups to be successful (which for PUGs, is not something I can count on). If we don't have a Warrior shielding us and/or a Sorcerer restoring HP and Mana, Rogues simply aren't as effective any more.

Sorcerers have come a very long way since the initial PvP release. Warriors continue to be very much overpowered, and with all the complaints about Rogues, the adjustment has hurt our class more than any other.

[Energizeric]

....Just before the patch, I was probably about 3 or 4:1, which is reasonable for a Rogue. Since the update, I might be 1:1.....maybe....

I hope you do realize that every time you get a kill, someone else gets a death. What exactly do you mean "which is reasonable for a Rogue"??? Average for any character should be 1:1. That means you fall in the middle. 3:1 or 4:1 is extremely good and would put you in the top 5% of all players for sure.

The reason most rogues were running 3:1 or 4:1 is because they were OP. Most sorcerers were 1:3 or 1:4 to balance that out. Maybe all this update did was even things out a bit.

[TheBedtBird]

Grats Energerzic, you must have figured out the build I use. My Kdr is 11:2 on my mage

[GoodSyntax]

Rogues are now super-squishy, so the primary tactic is to burst/nuke and if you can't get the kill, evade and wait for cool-down, grab a mana or health pack and just sit tight. It's a purely sound approach for any class, so having a good KDR doesn't make me OP, just a reasonable tactician.

The biggest problem is that everyone just wants to dive right in and duke it out.

I don't think that a good KDR is indicative of imbalance. It took me a long time to figure out a solid build, establish good tactics and find good teammates that I like to run with. For a long time, my KDR was well below 1....probably 1:5 because I had the wrong approach to PvP. I really hit my stride prior to the expansion because:

1) I was lv 21 fighting against a lot of 18/19s
2) I had top gear
3) I had good pets

Now, at lv 23 and 24, I'm playing up at the 25/26 range and my KDR has come back down to somewhere above 3:2. This proves that being OP does not equate to KDR, as I am outgunned by people two levels higher.

And, honestly, I doubt that a 3 or 4:1 KDR is a top 5%....that's probably more like 8-10:1 and the top 1% is probably 25:1 or better. I am hardly elite in PvP, and I think that a 2:1 KDR is good, not great. Sure there are times when you roll with a very strong team and keep replaying and you can have an outstanding streak with 10-15:1, but those streaks are balanced out with those times when you are teamed, in a weak group or are just playing so far above your level that you are not competitive and get a 1:10 ratio too.

By the statement "reasonable for a Rogue" I am implying that our class, by nature, delivers a lot of kill shots. Our Aimed Shot can take down anyone who is down to 25% health. So a stray shot can often yield a kill. Many call that kill stealing, but that is a misnomer. Just because a passing arrow turns into a kill does not invalidate all the damage that the other team mates delivered. If we are all attacking, someone has to get the kill, and it is usually the late attacks that have the highest probability of a kill. So a parting Aimed Shot that crits after you have been attacking someone doesn't mean it's a kill steal, it's just that we happened to get the last attack in.

[Natrich]

note:
we can only have a chance to kill a warrior if they shielded up early in the fight. so this kind of play can be countered if he is smart and experienced.
always wait for shield to go down you have 13seconds to take down a warrior til Horn CDs.


You don't have 13 seconds trust me lol. Your only chance, assuming you don't crit, against 1k armor warriors is do the bulk of your dmg after the warriors health regen effect wears off. So basically a 7 second window I think. The only time I die against sorc is when I'm a second away from that 2nd horn or while I'm charging it.

[GoodSyntax]

I agree Natrich. That's why I do two waves of assault, charged Aimed Shot, uncharged Nox, uncharged Shadow Piercer and repeat as soon as I cool down. If that doesn't work, I disengage because then it's shields up, Skyward, Windmill...dead Rogue. I just have to hope that one of my charged auto attacks stun you so I can get far enough way.

[Syylent]

I agree Natrich. That's why I do two waves of assault, charged Aimed Shot, uncharged Nox, uncharged Shadow Piercer and repeat as soon as I cool down. If that doesn't work, I disengage because then it's shields up, Skyward, Windmill...dead Rogue. I just have to hope that one of my charged auto attacks stun you so I can get far enough way.

Sounds eerily familiar. I may throw in a charged razor just in case there is some slowing effect. Usually that takes too much time or I am stunned. I get stunned a lot and my stun last .0000001 seconds.

[GoodSyntax]

Lol - I know!

It seems like when I get stunned it lasts 5 seconds, but when I stun someone else it's less than one second. That simply doesn't give me enough time to get away if I am within attack range of a Warrior, Sorcerer or Rogue.

It would be nice if Shadow Piercer could be used for evasion.

[Syylent]

i have been wondering if shadow pierce is even worth it. Most of the time it sends me into the pack of the enemy.

I have been thinking of trying shadow shot. Well I am not respecing again and have decided not to play until they fix what is broke. Just have been wondering if that would work better.. Charged AS, Nox then SS.

[GoodSyntax]

Shadow shot is worthless IMHO.

There has been a change so that Shadow Shot is auto targeted like the other skills, but it doesn't do enough damage to be worth considering. Yes, it does some AoE damage, but it is only worthwhile if it crits, otherwise, it's not worth the skill points. You would be better off putting the points into a passive (like DEX).

Honestly, next time I respec, I will be using Razor again. I went with Shadow for this expansion, and am seriously regretting it. The damage it does to mobs in Kraken Isles is negligible at best, and if that is the difference between life and death....well, it was nice knowing you.

[TheBedtBird]

Shadow shot is worthless IMHO.

There has been a change so that Shadow Shot is auto targeted like the other skills, but it doesn't do enough damage to be worth considering. Yes, it does some AoE damage, but it is only worthwhile if it crits, otherwise, it's not worth the skill points. You would be better off putting the points into a passive (like DEX).

Honestly, next time I respec, I will be using Razor again. I went with Shadow for this expansion, and am seriously regretting it. The damage it does to mobs in Kraken Isles is negligible at best, and if that is the difference between life and death....well, it was nice knowing you.

Care to explain what IMHO means?

[GoodSyntax]

In My Honest Opinion

[Chaokaban]

This was the basis of my post last week. Sorcerers and Warriors have shielding, mana regen, health regen but Rogues do not (some Rogues have health regen). Unfortunately, the damage rebalancing disproportionately affects Rogues because we don't have any long term stuns or snares (like fireball, time, windmill, etc), so we cannot disengage from a group. When we try to flee, Warriors just Skyward to close and Windmill to kill, and Sorcerers just Fireball, Lightning and a couple of autos to finish us off.

Rogues, since the update, are very squishy!

Early in PvP, my KDR was terrible, because I was still learning the tactics necessary for Rogues to survive. Just before the patch, I was probably about 3 or 4:1, which is reasonable for a Rogue. Since the update, I might be 1:1.....maybe. Everything comes down to damage reduction because I can kill some Warriors (not the top geared ones), but by the time the fight is over, I'm out of mana. It doesn't help that my lv 23 keeps joining up in lv 25/26 games.

I have learned that since the update, Rogues simply cannot solo as well, and sneak attacks don't work as often as they used to. We are now heavily reliant on good groups to be successful (which for PUGs, is not something I can count on). If we don't have a Warrior shielding us and/or a Sorcerer restoring HP and Mana, Rogues simply aren't as effective any more.

Sorcerers have come a very long way since the initial PvP release. Warriors continue to be very much overpowered, and with all the complaints about Rogues, the adjustment has hurt our class more than any other.

Warriors have shields which last for only 2 seconds while socerers have shields which last MUCH longer.

[Cero]

This was the basis of my post last week. Sorcerers and Warriors have shielding, mana regen, health regen but Rogues do not (some Rogues have health regen). Unfortunately, the damage rebalancing disproportionately affects Rogues because we don't have any long term stuns or snares (like fireball, time, windmill, etc), so we cannot disengage from a group. When we try to flee, Warriors just Skyward to close and Windmill to kill, and Sorcerers just Fireball, Lightning and a couple of autos to finish us off.

Rogues, since the update, are very squishy!

Early in PvP, my KDR was terrible, because I was still learning the tactics necessary for Rogues to survive. Just before the patch, I was probably about 3 or 4:1, which is reasonable for a Rogue. Since the update, I might be 1:1.....maybe. Everything comes down to damage reduction because I can kill some Warriors (not the top geared ones), but by the time the fight is over, I'm out of mana. It doesn't help that my lv 23 keeps joining up in lv 25/26 games.

I have learned that since the update, Rogues simply cannot solo as well, and sneak attacks don't work as often as they used to. We are now heavily reliant on good groups to be successful (which for PUGs, is not something I can count on). If we don't have a Warrior shielding us and/or a Sorcerer restoring HP and Mana, Rogues simply aren't as effective any more.

Sorcerers have come a very long way since the initial PvP release. Warriors continue to be very much overpowered, and with all the complaints about Rogues, the adjustment has hurt our class more than any other.

Warriors have shields which last for only 2 seconds while socerers have shields which last MUCH longer.

our shield time is useless if we recieved 500+dmg which can be easily done by a rogue/warriors

[Chaokaban]

our shield time is useless if we recieved 500+dmg which can be easily done by a rogue/warriors

How long can the socerer shield last?

[Chaokaban]

our shield time is useless if we recieved 500+dmg which can be easily done by a rogue/warriors

U mean the shield will only reduce the damage taken for socerers?

[Cero]

our shield time is useless if we recieved 500+dmg which can be easily done by a rogue/warriors

U mean the shield will only reduce the damage taken for socerers?

the shield can last half of the cooldown time which is 30secs. and yes it reduces dmg taken up to 45%(?) from any class. it explodes if we took 500+dmg which is the limit dmg to be absorb.

[GoodSyntax]

At least the other two classes have shields.

Playing without a shield requires a different approach, which is why everyone thinks we are just Kill Stealers. We don't survive direct frontal assualts and rely on surprise and tactics.

To offset the lack of shielding, we get Aimed Shot - and I'm not complaining :-)