Change stats on mythic mage helms (Vili's cowl)- What and why

[JaytB]

Before I start why and what to change, let's compare the 3 types (Warrior/Rogue/Mage) of mythic helms currently in game, and compare them to their best legendary (pink) counterparts.


I'm looking at it from a PvE perspective in this discussion.



First off, the warrior helm.


Legendary


The best legendary helm for warriors is arguably the Lv26 Sealord helm of will.


See stats in screenshot below:


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/695feb08dfbcb43d1e0b2c8479c85022_zps7184295c.jpg


So, we get: 31str, 16int and 431 armor


The good: adds lots of str and armor
The bad: adds int which is not really needed in PvE, Dmg would be a nicer stat to add


Mythic


See screenshot of stats on the mythic helm below:


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/9f3611594992a1ad3c247e0315b9e5c9_zps8aa922e0.jpg


This helm adds: 34 str, 2.9dmg and 481 armor


The good: Adds loads of str, armor and Dmg
The bad: -




Difference between mythic and legendary...


Mythic increases (+)/decreases (-) following stats:
+2str, +2.9dmg, +50armor, -16 int


Conclusion


The mythic helm is definitely a nice upgrade over the legendary counterpart, because it adds in everything that's important for a PvE warrior. It only decreases your mana pool a little, but that's a non-issue since there are mana pots in PvE.




Next up, the rogue helm


Legendary


The best rogue helm (as far as I could find out at least), would be the Lv26 sealord mesh of will.


These are the stats...


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/f6b19094d716bc89a57a317749530949_zpsfbaeca88.jpg


So, this helm adds: 31 dex, 16int, 333 armor


The good: adds nice amount of dex and armor.
The bad: adds int, might have been better to get more str (health) or Dmg.




Mythic


Let's again look at the stats first...


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/4ebe534857743adeb6e30ee3b27e60e9_zps63b31b7e.jpg


This helm adds: 18str, 35dex, 3.0dmg, 337armor


The good: adds loads of str and dex, adds nice amount of Dmg, and armor is high
The bad: -


Difference between mythic and legendary:


Mythic increases (+)/decreases (-) following stats:
+18str, +4dex, +3dmg, +4armor, -16int


Conclusion


Again, the mythic helm seems like a nice upgrade adding in all the stats that matter as compared to the Legendary counterpart. You'll get more health/dex/Dmg/armor at the cost of unneeded 16int. I'd say that's a pretty worthy stat increase.




And finally, the black sheep of the family, here's the mage helm


Legendary


Arguably the best mage helm is the Lv26 Sealord Effigy of Security.


Let's check out the stats:


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/5553f0b6517cf62a32082401ba368238_zpsbad82acb.jpg


The helm adds: 16str, 31int, 235armor


The good: adds stats where it matters... Str for survivability, Int for Dmg and a nice amount of armor
The bad: Would've been nice to get extra damage.




Mythic


Stats below...


http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j344/JaytB1/e8295a82b98478326de9ee3e5b7f67dc_zps04aa4863.jpg


This helm adds following stats: 18dex, 35int, 2.8dmg and 226 armor


The good: adds most int and nice amount of Dmg
The bad: armor isn't really that hot and it adds dex (? O.o), wich I'd say is a pretty worthless stat to add on a mage.


Difference between mythic and legendary


Mythic increases (+)/decreases (-) following stats:
+18dex, +4int, +2.8dmg, -9armor, -16str


Conclusion


So, we gain 18 useless dex points, 4int and 2.8dmg. So basically, the only useful stats we gain are a bit of int and 2.8dmg (lowest damage of all Mythic helms). But what we loose is even worse, 9 armor and 16str (about 160 HP!)



Why change Mythic mage helm stats


My question would be, what's up with that? While the mythic helms for rogues and warriors seem like a nice upgrade in all stats that matter, the mage one is a serious compromise between health/armor and a bit of Dmg. I'm not going to play the mages-are-already-underpowered card, but shouldn't mythic helms be an upgrade to all stats that matter? Why call it mythic otherwise. The stats on the helms for Rogues and warriors seem to agree with that statement, so why can't the mage helm?


What to change


My suggestion is simple, change the +18dex to +18str (I can't help but feel that it was an accident on STS's side, and that they originally meant to add str instead of dex. I mean.. Dex.. On a mage.. On a mythic helm? Just... O.o) and add some armor. Then it would actually be worth calling it Mythic.




As always, leave your constructive feedback below :)

[Mysticaleagle]

Agreed 200%.

The mage is already the weakest class, and now they even add the weakest Mythic for the mage, compared to the others.

Feels like they really are looking forward on the mage disparition.

[Valsacar]

Disagree, I like the dex.

Putting on the helm I gain 159 health, 0.45 crit (putting me over the 15% mark, which means I get crits pretty often), 350 more manage, 23 more damage, and 226 more armour. That's compare to not having it, you can do the math compared to the legendary helm.

My build, which includes TWO items that give dex (Red Beards Robe of Fatality) gives me 1832 health (enough to survive 3-4 hits from most elite mobs, 2-3 on an elite boss), 15.16% crit (enough that I get them pretty often, making the lightning upgrade worth using), 372 int, 3870 mana (plenty), 229.3 damage (which is important for sorc, more than dps) and 620 armor (wish that was a little higher).

Fireball does 275-344 damage. Lightning is 422-527, and ice/time is 367-459. I can put out some pretty massive damage (both AoE and single target). It's a strong build; decent survivability (if you play smart and don't try to rush like a warrior) and deals out a good deal of damage.

[JaytB]

Disagree, I like the dex.

Putting on the helm I gain 159 health, 0.45 crit (putting me over the 15% mark, which means I get crits pretty often), 350 more manage, 23 more damage, and 226 more armour. That's compare to not having it, you can do the math compared to the legendary helm.

My build, which includes TWO items that give dex (Red Beards Robe of Fatality) gives me 1832 health (enough to survive 3-4 hits from most elite mobs, 2-3 on an elite boss), 15.16% crit (enough that I get them pretty often, making the lightning upgrade worth using), 372 int, 3870 mana (plenty), 229.3 damage (which is important for sorc, more than dps) and 620 armor (wish that was a little higher).

Fireball does 275-344 damage. Lightning is 422-527, and ice/time is 367-459. I can put out some pretty massive damage (both AoE and single target). It's a strong build; decent survivability (if you play smart and don't try to rush like a warrior) and deals out a good deal of damage.

Haha, I could've known you'd say that as you're a crit based mage. Maybe I've been in sucky farming teams but 1832 health/620 armor definitely doesn't keep me alive, even while spamming health pots like mad. Not without an elix. So, and I'm speaking purely of own experience, to me it seems worthless to have 0.45crit more as compared to 160HP. How much more dmg does crit actually do? I read somewhere on these forums it's like 25% more? Exchanging 0.45% chance of doing 25% more damage, for way better survivability seems like a no brainer to me.

But, as said, maybe you run with teams with 1 or more people on elix. Or maybe you just have better teammates or are a better mage than me. I just can't see myself survive some specific elite maps with the amount of health and armor as in your build. But yeah, I'm all open for discussion. That's why I posted this topic here in the first place :)

[yoho]

crit = 200% damage, except upgraded lightning (250%)

[JaytB]

crit = 200% damage, except upgraded lightning (250%)


That's what I assumed, but then I read the comment that I pasted below. It was posted by someone who did extensive tests and even made a Dmg calculator.


What tests did you perform to come to your conclusion?



I have done a lot of testing and it appears that crits do about 125% normal damage (except your lightning)
total DPS with above assumptions ranged from 452-463

[JaytB]

No further opinions? :/

[Drizzt Lee]

Maybe there's not many sorcs in this game already? Lol..

Have u guys ever experienced logging into a city map and see no sorcs running around?

Pretty frightening, I have experienced twice at outpost till date... And all the lack of improvements to the class seem to be pushing the class off the cliff.. Shrug...

[just comment]

i think their purpose on adding dex to mage's mythic helm is to add critical chance which is raising mage dmg ..
but i think sts just create this game but never really2 play this game, 18 dex add only less than 1% critical probablity ..
so sts pls play your own game, you'll know which stats are needed to every classes upon their equipment ..
adding dex is ok as long as you also give more critical probablity like 10% or else (idk the exact nice figure, but less than 1% is completely waste)

[Valsacar]

Haha, I could've known you'd say that as you're a crit based mage. Maybe I've been in sucky farming teams but 1832 health/620 armor definitely doesn't keep me alive, even while spamming health pots like mad. Not without an elix. So, and I'm speaking purely of own experience, to me it seems worthless to have 0.45crit more as compared to 160HP. How much more dmg does crit actually do? I read somewhere on these forums it's like 25% more? Exchanging 0.45% chance of doing 25% more damage, for way better survivability seems like a no brainer to me.

But, as said, maybe you run with teams with 1 or more people on elix. Or maybe you just have better teammates or are a better mage than me. I just can't see myself survive some specific elite maps with the amount of health and armor as in your build. But yeah, I'm all open for discussion. That's why I posted this topic here in the first place :)

I'm one of the only, if not the only, crit mages but I think it's a viable build. 160hp isn't going to really make much of a difference with the KI elites (or any, from the runs I've done), maybe half a hit from my experience. I posted my basic strategy for KI elites in the sorc section (thread about respec for new elites), give it a try (needs a little practice to get used to) and see what you think about it. The only elite map I haven't completed is the cove, hard to find a team to do it. For the record, all of mine have been pugs (except seas, which is basically impossible to pug due to instant timer start). The first map it was just me and one warrior for over half of it (other two quit after a death) and it wasn't a problem.

Personally, I like the challenge of finding ways around problems, I'd rather have it hard (but doable) than a cake walk like normal mobs are to kill.

On the crits, CosmoxKramer redid his tests and believes it is now 130-150 (so average 140%) for crits. The 18 dex doesn't add a ton to the crit chance, but I'll take a little extra damage vs half a hit in health. Now, if it was enough health to survive a full hit I'd take that, or more +damage.

[Snoooooopy]

i thought rogue got a arcane weapon??
that + helm gives enough stats lol

[moonway03]

Agree on this,im a mage and i play it always even tho mage are getting massacered like hell in ctf

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2

[JaytB]

i thought rogue got a arcane weapon??
that + helm gives enough stats lol

Except this is about the mage helm, not the rogue one ;)

[Valsacar]

So, after I played with the DPS calculator some I see crits still aren't the best (any +dam is better than +crit, at least at this stage in the game). In this case the choice is crit or health, both are minor enough to not make a huge difference. For me, I'll take the little extra damage some crit can do if the health isn't enough to let me survive one additional hit.

[JaytB]

So, after I played with the DPS calculator some I see crits still aren't the best (any +dam is better than +crit, at least at this stage in the game). In this case the choice is crit or health, both are minor enough to not make a huge difference. For me, I'll take the little extra damage some crit can do if the health isn't enough to let me survive one additional hit.

In that elite map 'Southern seas', 160HP can make the difference between getting one-hit killed or staying alive just enough to be able to use a health pot. The only upside is that you don't need to run far to get back to that boss, but you're not spamming skills in the time you're dead so overall Damage dealt will go down. I'd rather be able to continue to deal Dmg than deal about 1% more Dmg and be dead all the time.

Edit: just to make clear, I'm using 'of security' robe for more health points and some armor. I tested the above using a str ring and amulet which adds some armor and about 100(or less?) HP. I managed to survive that boss' hard hit with the little extra HP and armor as compared to being one-hit killed without it.

[Valsacar]

In that elite map 'Southern seas', 160HP can make the difference between getting one-hit killed or staying alive just enough to be able to use a health pot. The only upside is that you don't need to run far to get back to that boss, but you're not spamming skills in the time you're dead so overall Damage dealt will go down. I'd rather be able to continue to deal Dmg than deal about 1% more Dmg and be dead all the time.

Edit: just to make clear, I'm using 'of security' robe for more health points and some armor. I tested the above using a str ring and amulet which adds some armor and about 100(or less?) HP. I managed to survive that boss' hard hit with the little extra HP and armor as compared to being one-hit killed without it.

I'm going to test more when I have the time (been a busy week for me). I was really hoping crit would be worth it after the update, but after playing with the calculator I'm seeing it's not as good as hoped. I've already been convinced to move back to colton, though I like clyde's power, so I'll test it. Moving back means a gear change, I'll lose too much health (or I assume) by moving back to colton.

After more testing, I might be doing a respec (I have enough plat for one or two) and dropping the couple points in crit. I don't have the mass freeze effect, and with elites that will be helpful (but not needed IMO). Not going to respec until after the next update, we'll see how they weaken things, and what the new items will do to change things.

[CosmoxKramer]

I use Colton when i feel save about surviving :). I do also rotate Wrathjaw and Clyde in when i am feeling particularly cheap or frugal with my gold.

I do agree with you Jaytb, that the Mythic helm for Sorcerers is a bit odd. Why Lower Armor?!?! Why Dex!? If crits did more damage then maybe ok. One other suggestion i had for a better balance PVP and PVE experience is
STR = 10 HP, 3 MP
INT = 7HP, 10 MP
DEX = 5 HP, 5 MP
DEX would also give your the small amounts of crit/dodge. I do think STR should give 1:1 armor in addition. This would help bring everyone's HP to a closer level for PVP. The difference would be Warriors have Armor, Rogues have crit/dodge, and Mages have their CC spells. Don't let HP and MP be such a determining factor in PVP

By doing the above then, 18 Dex wouldn't be so lousy as compared to 18 STR. It would still give some HP/MP and crit which is a nice secondary stat for a mage (after +dam/dam%). Altogether it would help the game's PVE content as well so there is a bit less 1 shotting. Let armor, dodge, CC be a bigger survival factor vs. just having 4k HP vs 2k.

[Samhayne]

Nice thread, Jay. Thanks for posting it up. The team is looking at it.

[JaytB]

Nice thread, Jay. Thanks for posting it up. The team is looking at it.

Thanks Sam! Funny how Dracknor sent me a PM at almost exactly the same time you posted your reply.

Looking forward to see what the team decides to do :)

[Energizeric]

What's funny is I just saw this thread for the first time, but I posted the same suggestion earlier today in one of the threads in the announcements forum.

I tend to look at things from a PvP perspective, and for that there is no way the mythic helm is a viable option. I go even further with the survivability build than you do Jay and use the "of will" gear. So a switch to the mythic helm would cost me 199 health points and 9 armor which is just crazy.

The mythic helm should really be the best helm for all situations. If they were to switch the DEX to STR then it would only cost me 73 health points which is reasonable if it adds a decent amount of damage. Also, for it to fall in line with the rogue and warrior mythic helms, the armor should exceed the 235 which the sealord/bloodhammer helms give.

Perfect stats for mythic would look something like this:

18 STR, 35 INT, 2.8 Damage, 240 Armor

[Caiahar]

18 STR, 35 INT, 2.8 Damage, 240 Armor

Yes! This is what it should be! Glad Devs are taking care of it.

[yuriramos]

great thread. thnx for this

[Caiahar]

Wait a minute Jaytb, I remember sts or someone saying, "The most rare doesn't mean the best" Doesn't this apply here? I mean, Mythic is rarer than Pinks and Sealord, but here you can see it gives dex, which is useless to Sorcerer. Sealord of Security/Will Is less rare, But better than Mythic. So maybe, just maybe, the Devs are teaching us that high Rarity doesn't mean the best? Think about it.

[JaytB]

Wait a minute Jaytb, I remember sts or someone saying, "The most rare doesn't mean the best" Doesn't this apply here? I mean, Mythic is rarer than Pinks and Sealord, but here you can see it gives dex, which is useless to Sorcerer. Sealord of Security/Will Is less rare, But better than Mythic. So maybe, just maybe, the Devs are teaching us that high Rarity doesn't mean the best? Think about it.

It would make sense if it were true for the other helmets as well, but only the mage one gives worse stats.

[cutted]

:snowman:

[JaytB]

:snowman:

:confused:

[Valsacar]

So, opinions now? I really like the change, but think it could still use a little bit more armor.

[JaytB]

So, opinions now? I really like the change, but think it could still use a little bit more armor.

I'd have to check more, it's a tiny bit better currently but still not very impressive at first sight. Making dex a more valid stat was a step in the right direction, it's just that the tiny amount of dex on the helm doesn't make that much of a difference.

I'll look at it in more detail soon, still playing around with respecs and stats at the moment :)

[Energizeric]

I still think STR is preferable, just that DEX now is not totally useless.

[JaytB]

I still think STR is preferable, just that DEX now is not totally useless.

IMO, this helm should, like all other mythic helmets, add at least some more HP and armor as compared to the best legendary counterpart.

Why not just add some str and armor to the existing stats? It's underpowered in therms of Dmg (which got more or less solved by making Dex add a bit to your Dmg now), HP and armor as compared to the other mythical helmets. This would make it at least equally good.

[Energizeric]

So, opinions now? I really like the change, but think it could still use a little bit more armor.

I think it just needs some more armor. The Bloodhammer/Sealord "of security" helms have 235 Armor, yet the mythic only has 226. But if you look at the rogue/warrior mythic helms, they have the most of any helm for both of those classes. So the mythic mage helm should have at least 240 in my opinion. Otherwise it's debatable if it's actually the best mage helm.

[JaytB]

I think it just needs some more armor. The Bloodhammer/Sealord "of security" helms have 235 Armor, yet the mythic only has 226. But if you look at the rogue/warrior mythic helms, they have the most of any helm for both of those classes. So the mythic mage helm should have at least 240 in my opinion. Otherwise it's debatable if it's actually the best mage helm.

I agree. It got a tiny bit better after the update by making dex a more valuable stat but it's still the black sheep of the Mythic helms IMO

I could live with only some armor increase but it would be truly mythic if it got a bit of str with it too.

At least STS is listening and I hope they will see it the same way as we do :)

[zubionie]

:frog:

[Bootydots]

It does need a slight armor buff i cud agree. But giving up damage for a lil bit more hp???? doesnt sound that great too me.

[Zuzeq]

Know nothing of Mages, but got to show some love for the work you put in. Kudos..

[Aplyed]

Please dev's look in here , its not fair for mages , Buff there helms. They need it they die so easy .

[Carapace]

keep in mind there is an armor coming with the new expansion

[Aplyed]

Yea But keep in mind sorc helm is Trash . I just dont get my its so underpowered that the rest thats all.

[Rare]

Yea But keep in mind sorc helm is Trash . I just dont get my its so underpowered that the rest thats all.

Maybe the sorcerer armor will be overt powered to compensate?

[Aplyed]

Maybe the sorcerer armor will be overt powered to compensate?


Still dont change the fact of its suckyness.

[JaytB]

keep in mind there is an armor coming with the new expansion

Mmmm, sounds like a hint of things to come.

Looking forward to see what you guys come up with (:

[falmear]

keep in mind there is an armor coming with the new expansion

I predict that once the new expansion comes out this helm will drop in price as compared to the level 31 legendary helms. Because then the mythic helm will be only marginally better the the level 31 legendary helms. The only thing thats saving this is the 2.8 dmg. If you think about that elite maps will most likely be made harder, then the lower armor and subpar dex isn't going to cut it. Why anyone would spend 3 mill on something thats going to be obsolete at the end of april is beyond me. Its nothing but an expensive vanity at the moment.

[Rare]

I predict that once the new expansion comes out this helm will drop in price as compared to the level 31 legendary helms. Because then the mythic helm will be only marginally better the the level 31 legendary helms. The only thing thats saving this is the 2.8 dmg. If you think about that elite maps will most likely be made harder, then the lower armor and subpar dex isn't going to cut it. Why anyone would spend 3 mill on something thats going to be obsolete at the end of april is beyond me. Its nothing but an expensive vanity at the moment.

They have a lot of value beyond their current stats

[Zanpakuto]

My friend has the helm and he doesn't mind the less health now that dex adds to sorc damage! If anything he's learnt to maneuver better with it while dealing more damage than any legendary mage helm. Survivability is important, but leave that to tanks and dodgy rogues! He likes having the higher damage vs health. If you really want str, go buy cheap str armor and wear it! Don't touch the massive attack helm of the mage especially now that warriors have more aggro! Although the 2.8 is kind of insulting compared to the other helms, raise that and all is cool :) level cap is raising soon, you will get more health regardless!

I personally can't wait to see the armors even though they'll be in the millions :(