fail! fail! fail!

[Snakespeare]

(The thread title comes from the only Dr Who episode written by Douglas Adams, Pirate Planet.)

Man, what is it with PUGs in Arcane? These are some mighty failed groups. Lately I have not been able to complete a map because they can't cooperate enough to beat the boss.

Today while in the last map of Dead City, it was me and another rogue trying to beat the boss because everyone else left. I got it halfway down by myself, practically, and the other rogue, after dying, comes back trailed by two more pink demons. What?! I had already pat revved once, and used about 50 health pots and as many mana pots, but three one-shot bosses at once? gimme a break. of course they killed us and reset. What a waste of pots and plat!

And this sort of thing has been going on... for instance, someone gets agro and runs away, resetting a boss when everyone else has been using their pots and doing plat revs.

Anyway, it reminds me of sewers. This problem was ended in PL by making special zones for levelling. But AL is almost entirely PUGs, where your success depends on randomly getting people to play with who don't reset the boss. Yeah, I know, if you have a guild and you have friends, you can get past this. If you're not a guildee kind of guy, well, get used to it, I guess.

[Greencrow]

what is PUGS ? thanks

[Mezmeractus]

Puny
Ugly
Goat
Slappers

[jerzy448]

Yea it sucks. Just started back playing today and havent completed a map yet. Havent capped and dont think i will. Im going to let this game ride off into the sunset.

[Mezmeractus]

I actually don't know what PUGs is but my best guess based on his post is people under geared

[Rare]

Snake... what you are trying to say is "BOOOO this party system"

Check this out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?89261-The-Party-System). Help us out man!

[Genuinous]

PuG's are quite awful in elite maps, but you can meet many great players through them at the same time. This is even truer if you try to lvl in wt4 with randoms. Nonetheless it is expected that a PuG will be a lot slower than a well organized group of strong players, no surprises there :)

[KillaSkillz]

To answer the question here. PUGs = Pick Up Games
It's a random join game instead of creating a party, and in elite it really isn't possible to do it in this game. You are destined for failure and disappointment in a pug in elite.

[Rare]

Man... I just ran a PUG. Me, another Rogue, and a warrior. It was in Harbor. We were in the last area before the boss and mini boss. We go wiped (first time after ~7 minutes). So the warrior left. :(

[JaytB]

I agree 100% with the OP. PUG's are generally a horrible experience. There are very few people who stick around till the end, most are undergeared and have no clue what they're doing. Even in non-elite maps in lots of the groups people leave half way through. It can definitely be a crappy experience.

PUG's are the only reason why I'm starting to consider joining a guild with people who know what they are doing.

[Greencrow]

The best way to avoi pugs is to join a guild :))

[Rare]

The best way to avoi pugs is to join a guild :))

Where is the fun in avoiding PUGs??? This game wouldn't be half of what it is without them IMO. Better idea is to fix PUGs so they can be enjoyed by the masses like in PL and SL.

[FluffNStuff]

Send a party invite at the beginning when you have a full 'team'. Useless, perhaps, but I found when someone does this the pug does better. Could be some psycho babble about feeling part of a team so acting more like you are part of that team, but when partied, players seem less likely to quit, less likely to go AFK and more likely stick through a tough boss. Basing this on solely on my limited experience, so take it as you will, but it always surprises me how differently players behave.

[Mezmeractus]

I think if we give everyone the same armor and the same enemies to kill there won't be a problem. JOSEPH STALIN FOREVER! GO COMMUNISM!

[TheBedtBird]

What I usually do is check peoples stats and if I see they are reallyWhat I usually do is check peoples stats and if I see they are super low I leave. I like to usually get runs done fast and you cant do that with people that have super low stats. Plus it lowers the possibilty of a player ressetting the boss by 97%

[Rare]

What I usually do is check peoples stats and if I see they are reallyWhat I usually do is check peoples stats and if I see they are super low I leave. I like to usually get runs done fast and you cant do that with people that have super low stats. Plus it lowers the possibilty of a player ressetting the boss by 97%

97% huh? lol

[Raxin]

Join a better guild my friends :-P
The only pug i play is:
P owerering
U p
G uildies

Or

P roducing
U ber
G old

Check guild section tons of amazing are available.
I.e.
Raxin: 1/4 sea dps please
Mem1: me
Mem2: inv me
Mem3: ill go
Situation nuetralized

Same with ap clears and rec runs
Gl guys

[Pandamoni]

Snake, I'm not often on when you're on the bus but add me in game and I'd be happy to help you when you get stuck in the sucky runs. We need to bug the devs to change the party system to allow 1 or 2 friends to run together and still allow others to join so you can get a full run with just a few friends rather than either doing a half empty run with friends or straight pugging/trying to get into a run with a few friends. It's clunky, to say the least.

[GoodSyntax]

I actually like PUGs in some cases.

There are many times when I just want to do a casual run in the early Kraken Isles maps (Windmoore Harbor, Southern Seas) and I honestly don't care whether I solo or have others run with me.

The only time I get ansy about the group is when I am running a tough elite map, or a tough normal map (like Skull Cove). When in doubt, I either party up with friends or with my guildies.

If I am on a map that I can solo, then I don't care whether the group is good or not. It gives me a chance to help others and I have run into many good players (some whom I now call Friend) in PUGs. If folks bail out at the boss, fine with me, I was prepared to solo it anyway, if they stick around, then that's fine too. The only issue I have is when some nooby Warrior gets aggro, runs away and resets the boss. When I see that happening, I try to spam Aimed, Nox and Piercer to get aggro back.

If you ever need help, just send me a party invite (IGN: Kalizza). Unless I'm in the middle of a PvP match, or on an elite map, I'll drop out and join you.

[Rare]

Same with ap clears and rec runs
Gl guys

Or just change up the system. I vote this option

My motto... More fun less work

[Snakespeare]

Ah Aedenos! You are right. I realize now that this kind of is a duplicate thread to yours:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?89261-The-Party-System

I realized that each of these failed runs began with people requesting to form a party. But each time there were only three players. People send party requests when there are still spots available, and once the others in the group accept, nobody can join. So then someone leaves partway, and now you have no chance at beating the boss. Nobody can join.

What was wrong with how we did it in PL? Supposedly everything STS learned from PL, SL, and DL went into this game. Did they learn that hosting, inviting, locking, and sometimes booting are bad? True there were many complaints about lowbies leeching or getting booted, so they had to restrict the levels of people joining zones, but they brought that level restriction over. I didn't like it in DL, but you leveled by the energy system there and could choose solo or PUG.

Thing is, if I enter a zone (i.e. get forced into a random PUG) there is always someone who insists on making a party. If you say No, it just pops up again and again until you say Yes.

So, yeah, it's the Party System.

[Samhayne]

Hey Snakespeare,

I'm not sure that simply adding the somewhat confusing (especially for a "casual" player) Host/Join system from PL into the mix would really fix the issue of bad pick up groups.

Guilds
Is the better overall solution making Guilds more visible and systems for likeminded players to get into guilds so they have more quality players to run with?

Looking for Group / Looking for More
Other MMOs have systems for players to advertise their group or to say they are a player looking for a group. Would adding those sorts of systems make a difference?

Forming a Party Global Chat
Another idea might be having a global chat for people to find a good party or people to make a party. The problem is that such global chats quickly turn to other topics (many of which are not the most appropriate for our game).

Bottom line is - what are real solutions to the universal problem of poor players (they are there in any online multiplayer game)?

[Rare]

Hey Snakespeare,

I'm not sure that simply adding the somewhat confusing (especially for a "casual" player) Host/Join system from PL into the mix would really fix the issue of bad pick up groups.

Guilds
Is the better overall solution making Guilds more visible and systems for likeminded players to get into guilds so they have more quality players to run with?

Looking for Group / Looking for More
Other MMOs have systems for players to advertise their group or to say they are a player looking for a group. Would adding those sorts of systems make a difference?

Forming a Party Global Chat
Another idea might be having a global chat for people to find a good party or people to make a party. The problem is that such global chats quickly turn to other topics (many of which are not the most appropriate for our game).

Bottom line is - what are real solutions to the universal problem of poor players (they are there in any online multiplayer game)?

A broadcast would actually be pretty good.

I think the biggest thing is, in PL/SL, we could look at a join game screen to see what all games were available and join them. In AL, we can't do that. It adds a layer of time trying to find a group to run with making it less of a pick up and play game.

There will always be bad PUGs... but the join game screen, IMO, made it much easier to find the good ones that you will enjoy.

For example... right now I could probably log in and do an elite run or two. But because I would have to spend time finding a party or wait in a pug for people to join, I probably won't do it.

[wvhills]

Hey Snakespeare,

I'm not sure that simply adding the somewhat confusing (especially for a "casual" player) Host/Join system from PL into the mix would really fix the issue of bad pick up groups.

Guilds
Is the better overall solution making Guilds more visible and systems for likeminded players to get into guilds so they have more quality players to run with?

Looking for Group / Looking for More
Other MMOs have systems for players to advertise their group or to say they are a player looking for a group. Would adding those sorts of systems make a difference?

Forming a Party Global Chat
Another idea might be having a global chat for people to find a good party or people to make a party. The problem is that such global chats quickly turn to other topics (many of which are not the most appropriate for our game).

Bottom line is - what are real solutions to the universal problem of poor players (they are there in any online multiplayer game)?

Sam, I think ur looking for a complicated answer when a simple one already exists. The way we can start a game on our own or select from existing games to join is vastly superior than the way it's done in AL or DL. It's not as complicated a system as u make it out to be, in fact I think it's a lot simpler than the party system and getting random party invites all the time (but I do like the party system in that u can play with ur guild or friends and not have to boot people).

The chat/looking for group features u mention won't help anything at all. You will still have random people u don't know accepting invitations.

The problem may be bad players but the solution is simple: bring in the same system that already exists in pl.

[FluffNStuff]

Ah Aedenos! You are right. I realize now that this kind of is a duplicate thread to yours:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?89261-The-Party-System

I realized that each of these failed runs began with people requesting to form a party. But each time there were only three players. People send party requests when there are still spots available, and once the others in the group accept, nobody can join. So then someone leaves partway, and now you have no chance at beating the boss. Nobody can join.

What was wrong with how we did it in PL? Supposedly everything STS learned from PL, SL, and DL went into this game. Did they learn that hosting, inviting, locking, and sometimes booting are bad? True there were many complaints about lowbies leeching or getting booted, so they had to restrict the levels of people joining zones, but they brought that level restriction over. I didn't like it in DL, but you leveled by the energy system there and could choose solo or PUG.

Thing is, if I enter a zone (i.e. get forced into a random PUG) there is always someone who insists on making a party. If you say No, it just pops up again and again until you say Yes.

So, yeah, it's the Party System.

This pretty much invalidates what I said (I can admit it, I am new to the game) since I did not know if there is a party formed, no one else can join. Is that for all boards? Even if no party is formed, it seems there is a period where no one joins, like after you kill the first mob till about the middle. And if no one joins in the middle, you are pretty much SOL. The ~average~ team for me in AL is me, another guy fighting well, one guy AFK at the beginning checking his inventory and an empty slot from the person who jumped in to just pick up a quest and bail.

As to taking things from PL, this style reminds me so much of the paid unhosted boards. There was way to much in the luck of the draw there, since you would sit there and wait for players, and pray that if a fourth person joined, then a fifth person would ALSO join at the exact time. This is because once that first boss was killed, no one else who joined would stay, because it was a waste of their plat. Not so much a problem with the partying software, but it had the same effect on game play.

[NotYoCookiez]

I think if we give everyone the same armor and the same enemies to kill there won't be a problem. JOSEPH STALIN FOREVER! GO COMMUNISM!

LOL he got banned.

Guilds help a bunch I love them. But PL has a better system :3

[Pandamoni]

Sam, I think ur looking for a complicated answer when a simple one already exists. The way we can start a game on our own or select from existing games to join is vastly superior than the way it's done in AL or DL. It's not as complicated a system as u make it out to be, in fact I think it's a lot simpler than the party system and getting random party invites all the time (but I do like the party system in that u can play with ur guild or friends and not have to boot people).

The chat/looking for group features u mention won't help anything at all. You will still have random people u don't know accepting invitations.

The problem may be bad players but the solution is simple: bring in the same system that already exists in pl.


Amen.

I don't feel that the problem is really being understood?

I understand it's frustrating when a new system is introduced and it must feel like people are poo-pooing it without giving it a chance, but you're hearing from some of the most seasoned players here, telling you that the party system is clunky at best and downright frustrating at worst.

I think giving the option to join games as you can in PL and SL in addition to the party system would be the ultimate fix. If that isn't possible, I think allowing random people to join a partied up run if there are open spots would be the next best thing. This would at least allow friends who aren't cool enough to belong to a giant guild (or who just have absolutely NO DESIRE to) to do partied runs that aren't half empty.




ETA: I don't think that the PL join system is all too confusing. I had never played an MMO before and was able to figure it out?

Blaming an issue on poor players is going to lead to a slippery slope of not listening to valid concerns from customers, IMO.

[Pandamoni]

A broadcast would actually be pretty good.

I think the biggest thing is, in PL/SL, we could look at a join game screen to see what all games were available and join them. In AL, we can't do that. It adds a layer of time trying to find a group to run with making it less of a pick up and play game.

There will always be bad PUGs... but the join game screen, IMO, made it much easier to find the good ones that you will enjoy.

For example... right now I could probably log in and do an elite run or two. But because I would have to spend time finding a party or wait in a pug for people to join, I probably won't do it.

This is major. Last night I was trying to do some runs and stood around waiting to get partied up. I probably wasted like 20 minutes of my 40 minutes or so I had to play.

[Snakespeare]

Sam, I've always considered myself a casual player, and the system in PL was never hard to understand. But I must admit, I don't understand the party system at all. And I see that Fluff didn't understand it either. So it's probably less intuitive than what we have in PL/SL.

But I think, now that I've correctly ID'd the problem (people making parties when there are only 3 players, then someone leaves), I will play some more tonight and see if the problem solving RNA is working today. :)

[Hiosahaf]

I think its perfectly the fine the way things are. I got a great guild. Plus, why don't you get so strong that just you and some other player can complete the realm (normal mode) ? Elite, agreed you need good players. So hunt for them!

[Fyrce]

I ran out of thanks here!

I don't think the AL Party system is that intuitive. I understand it now, so if a party is undermanned, I know how to man it up or to leave, but I think there are plenty of people who do not. Not to mention, periodically, in towns, you have to help people with how to leave a party, since they do not know.

Joining in PL/SL was much much easier.

Maybe this is a tutorial issue? Not everyone seems to understand that once you have a party, your games become party-exclusive games.

I still enjoy PUGs, good and bad. The bad usually give me a laugh and a challenge, and maybe some swearing :p, but the good can be quite amazing.

[FluffNStuff]

After a lengthy discussion with some mind altering hunny it occurred to me that the party system was "add me for remake" 2.0. In PL, if everyone added, then that remake would become a locked game, but more often some would want to rerun while others moved on. So the host would make an unlocked game and a couple would join through the friends and the rest through join screen. It could go on like this with players filtering in and out of friends join till the host was done.
Cut to AL where we only have the first option. Player says party, and if people join they can only make locked games. What if the host was given the option to make either a locked or unlocked game? If one or two people join, then that other spot will be open. Essentially, spots are only locked for the team member. And if a player leaves a team or is kicked, their spot would open up?

Tldr:give party leader OPTION to allow non party members into game.

[Mrsberry]

I think the issue is largely due to that all elite maps are timed. Once that timer starts if someone dc's, gets a phone call, or just leaves no one els can join making the work you've already done a waist.
Give us the option whether or not we want a timed run. On the map where we can select if we want to run elite maps add another button like a clock for elite timed maps. This way if you decide your not a leadboarder like most of us you have the option to just be a farmer.

[wvhills]

the reason they won't go with the PL system is because of leaderboards. During timed runs in elites (or any of the tombs) once the timer starts no one else can join. I guess this is to prevent people joining halfway through and getting on the leaderboard without helping their party.

Some people LOVE the timed runs and recognition it brings. I like getting with my guild and trying to get on the leaderboards myself but it does have a HUGE downside. Once that timer starts no one else can join. This leads to MANY failed pugs. People rage quit halfway through elites and you're stuck being a man down.

Here's my awesome suggestion for getting around this dilemma: Bring in the PL style of joining games BUT only allow timed runs to count towards leaderboards IF the players are in a party.

Woop, woop you can thank me laters!
Haha.

Sorry msberry, I commented without reading ur post. haha. I agree with your assesment of the problem. Have a little different solution tho.

[Snakespeare]

I think its perfectly the fine the way things are. I got a great guild. Plus, why don't you get so strong that just you and some other player can complete the realm (normal mode) ? Elite, agreed you need good players. So hunt for them!

I don't agree.

I'm glad you have a strong guild, but I personally don't do guilds. When I socialize, I only socialize, and when I play I only play. I don't like peanut butter in my chocolate. Additionally, I don't understand the point of guilds at all. I don't know any of these people. For all I know they could be 13 years old. What does a 57 year old have in common with a kid, other than a game. They don't even type real words.

How can the party system be perfect as it is? I enter a zone and there's one person, or none. I wait, someone joins, and wants to form a party. If I say yes, nobody else can join. What's up with that? If I say no, they get their feelings hurt.

It's as if people think you're supposed to send a party request like a friends request. Just spam anyone with party requests. Then they leave halfway through the map, nobody can join, the boss can't be killed, and you can't progress to the next level.

That's not exactly perfect.

[Hiosahaf]

I don't agree.

I'm glad you have a strong guild, but I personally don't do guilds. When I socialize, I only socialize, and when I play I only play. I don't like peanut butter in my chocolate. Additionally, I don't understand the point of guilds at all. I don't know any of these people. For all I know they could be 13 years old. What does a 57 year old have in common with a kid, other than a game. They don't even type real words.

How can the party system be perfect as it is? I enter a zone and there's one person, or none. I wait, someone joins, and wants to form a party. If I say yes, nobody else can join. What's up with that? If I say no, they get their feelings hurt.

It's as if people think you're supposed to send a party request like a friends request. Just spam anyone with party requests. Then they leave halfway through the map, nobody can join, the boss can't be killed, and you can't progress to the next level.

That's not exactly perfect.
The last part actually cracked me up because it was the truth :D albeit the bitter truth. Whenever I get such.. Dumb people in a zone I just leave 'cause I know they're gonna be a source of annoyance..
When I was new to this game, I thought that the only benefit the guilds had was that that they gave us a cool title. Then I realized that we get discounted potions too!
From your point if view, it is completely understandable, your annoyance that is. And I get your point too! but well, nothing can be done about it :/

[Pandamoni]

I don't agree.

I'm glad you have a strong guild, but I personally don't do guilds. When I socialize, I only socialize, and when I play I only play. I don't like peanut butter in my chocolate. Additionally, I don't understand the point of guilds at all. I don't know any of these people. For all I know they could be 13 years old. What does a 57 year old have in common with a kid, other than a game. They don't even type real words.

How can the party system be perfect as it is? I enter a zone and there's one person, or none. I wait, someone joins, and wants to form a party. If I say yes, nobody else can join. What's up with that? If I say no, they get their feelings hurt.

It's as if people think you're supposed to send a party request like a friends request. Just spam anyone with party requests. Then they leave halfway through the map, nobody can join, the boss can't be killed, and you can't progress to the next level.

That's not exactly perfect.

one million thanks!

[Snakespeare]

The last part actually cracked me up because it was the truth :D albeit the bitter truth. Whenever I get such.. Dumb people in a zone I just leave 'cause I know they're gonna be a source of annoyance..
When I was new to this game, I thought that the only benefit the guilds had was that that they gave us a cool title. Then I realized that we get discounted potions too!
From your point if view, it is completely understandable, your annoyance that is. And I get your point too! but well, nothing can be done about it :/

Cool! :)

But I do believe that something can be done about it. I just don't know exactly what. I think some other folks on this thread have been thinking about it longer. If I get an idea, I will post it in suggestions.

Thanks everyone for helping me understand the problem. :)

Snake

[Evilgoat]

Puny
Ugly
Goat
Slappers

Someone called me? ;P