The Myth of the KDR

[MightyMicah]

Everyone knows what a Kill-Death Ratio (KDR) is. It's the amount of kills you have divided by the amount of deaths. So if you have nine kills and three deaths, your KDR would be 3. In other words, the average amount of kills that you get per death. Ok, so everyone knows what it is, but it's come to my attention that few people understand it's significance.

How many of you have heard people say something like "KDR means nothing!" Or "You can't judge a guy by his KDR!" Or perhaps you're on the flip side and hear people say something like "Wow he's so pro! He has a 5-1 KDR!" What are we to make of these kind of statements? This is where my thread will come in handy. My goal in this thread is to examine just what a KDR is and what it means. I'll do this by dispelling several common myths that we hear all the time.

Myth #1- "Bad KDR means bad pvper!"

It is so easy to size somebody up right away by their KDR. Try not to! While, as a general rule, a good pvper will, in fact, tend to have a better KDR, that is not always the case. Many times the pvper will have just caught on to pvp and his KDR will have sucked from the previous couple weeks/months or however long he's played. Shoot, he may have even gotten several thousand kills negative and is just now catching up to positive status!

Another possibility that I've found to be fairly common is that the pvper sells free kills for in game gold. I don't even know if this is allowed (I wouldn't advise it) but it does happen.

A few other possibilities include a character that someone hasn't played on in a long while and since then has improved, a character who, perhaps, gets picked on a lot for whatever reason, a character who was in a rushing guild, etc. All things said and done, there are many, many reasons why a bad KDR does not equate with a bad pvper. If you need a specific example, check out Paaahudd (check birdy DM leader board) He's one of the most talented birds I know and he doesn't even have a 1.5 KDR.

Myth #2- "Good KDR means good pvper!"

Similarly to the first myth, a good KDR doesn't mean that they're good at pvp! I know so, so many boosters! (I won't name any names) Also, a lot of times the pvper with the epic KDR doesn't even fight anyone with talent. They simply challenge the weaklings and farm the new guys. Now, this doesn't mean that everyone with a good KDR is a bad pvper. It just means that you can't judge somebody's talent by their KDR.

Myth #3- "The more kills, the more talent!"

This is also a very popular myth. Many people think that the more kills you have, the better you are at pvp. Not at all!!! The only thing that more kills means is that you've spent more time playing the game. Sure, it is very possible that by spending more time on the game, you've acquired more experience and skill. However, that doesn't have to be the case. I don't know how many cocky "pros" with some 20k+ kills have gotten mad at me for whatever reason and began rushing me only to get their butts handed to them. I don't say this to put myself up. I'm saying this to prove the point that lots of kills really doesn't mean anything more than lots of play time.

Even that last statement I made isn't always true! I remember when a guy (forgot his name) gave his account to a buddy of his. He had an intense amount of kills with like a 4-1 KDR and I don't think he even knew how to chat...much less pvp.

Myth #4 (This one is my favorite) "KDR means nothing!"

This is perhaps the greatest myth of them all and the original reason why I began writing this thread. We have already seen one reason why this simply isn't true! The bigger the amount of kills and deaths, the more time they have spent in the arena. However, this is a very minor detail considering everything else that you can determine about a person by their KDR.

I've also found KDR to be a very good indicator of a characters pvp style. When I watch another level 50 take out a glyph a couple times in a row and he has a KDR of 4,000+ kills to 3,000+ deaths, there's a very good chance that he's very reckless. He probably rushes a lot and doesn't back down ever. My guess is he's seen a lot of FFA and been teamed many times as well.

Now, if a guy has say a 4,000 kills and 1,000 deaths KDR, it paints a totally different picture. That good of a KDR can't come easy. There's a very good chance the person boosts, fights lower levels, doesn't FFA too much, teams a lot, etc. He will most likely get more upset than most if you rush him and probably doesn't hand out frees either.

There's only so many examples I can give, but I think you get the idea. KDR means a TON. It may not be a good indication of skill, but it certainly speaks volumes about everything else. Learn to read people's KDR's. Never assume anything, but always study other's KDR's.

Just figured I'd try and post a little something helpful since I haven't really tried to help anybody lately! Hopefully you learned something! :)
-MM

[dudetus]

Thoughtful reply implemented with some constructive critisism.

[Zeus]

You always seem to address controversial topics in PL so skillfully, Micah. Good job! :)

[MightyMicah]

You always seem to address controversial topics in PL so skillfully, Micah. Good job! :)

Thanks, Apollo! That means a lot coming from you :)

[Waug]

KDR means nothing

anyway if sombody take it literally, then it's a different mater as if anyone define great comments of famous persons literally.

[Yich]

I find myself giving other people rep for the sole purpose of being allowed to give Dudetus rep again.

[Fallen_Chisk_Angels]

Very very true, nice done MM.

[razerfingers]

Funny you make this i was in a match the other day i beat a guy quite a few times match ends he comes on my team i say smart remark containing "im so proh, da bes" and all of a sudden he goes nahh you got negative kdr im like... And? Hah

Sent using blood on a bathroom wall

[Zerious]

5k/2k kdr spells what to you? cuz that's my 51 bear atm.... Although i pvped with him from lvl 20 on up to where he is now. Wreckless? doy, imma bear

[Loaden]

Well, under such topics, infamous people should be named. Pakayolo has a very in-depth knowledge of KDR.

[Yich]

Pre forg PvP, kill count did determine how good you were pretty accurately. The few exceptions were Kayumanggi and Kawakawasaki. For the most part otherwise, the best always had a high kill count. Maybe the Insomniac guild was an exception, but they had different toons so that doesnt count.

[razerfingers]

I think KDR was cool until fb came around. Yes i use one im being a hypocrite but i dont care :)

Sent using blood on a bathroom wall

[floats]

Pre forg PvP, kill count did determine how good you were pretty accurately. The few exceptions were Kayumanggi and Kawakawasaki. For the most part otherwise, the best always had a high kill count. Maybe the Insomniac guild was an exception, but they had different toons so that doesnt count.

So ur saying that kawakawasaki is good? I made a troll char, then when I got to balefort to sell some of my items, I saw kawa, so I trash talk to her a bit like 'u suk' then she ends up raging, calling me nub, and challenges me. Well I feel bad and didn't expect this reaction, tats when I learn how small words can hurt.............but still.

[Fallen_Chisk_Angels]

So ur saying that kawakawasaki is good? I made a troll char, then when I got to balefort to sell some of my items, I saw kawa, so I trash talk to her a bit like 'u suk' then she ends up raging, calling me nub, and challenges me. Well I feel bad and didn't expect this reaction, tats when I learn how small words can hurt.............but still.

yah try not to trash talk for no reason just saying :/

[AbsolutePally]

My kills deaths w mage is 24k kills to 20k deaths - what does that say about me? :)

This is a good thread!! Great job man!!

[Extreme]

+1!

[MightyMicah]

Dang. Thanks for the support guys! I just expected this thread to die like any other thread. I'm glad y'all appreciate it! Hehe :)

[Noodleleg]

I've also found KDR to be a very good indicator of a characters pvp style. When I watch another level 50 take out a glyph a couple times in a row and he has a KDR of 4,000+ kills to 3,000+ deaths, there's a very good chance that he's very reckless. He probably rushes a lot and doesn't back down ever. My guess is he's seen a lot of FFA and been teamed many times as well.

Now, if a guy has say a 4,000 kills and 1,000 deaths KDR, it paints a totally different picture. That good of a KDR can't come easy. There's a very good chance the person boosts, fights lower levels, doesn't FFA too much, teams a lot, etc. He will most likely get more upset than most if you rush him and probably doesn't hand out frees either.

There's only so many examples I can give, but I think you get the idea. KDR means a TON. It may not be a good indication of skill, but it certainly speaks volumes about everything else. Learn to read people's KDR's. Never assume anything, but always study other's KDR's.

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Noodleleg/9cf9917c12ad1a0578e5e27deca5153a_zps4fce3ce3.jpg

[Loaden]

Dang. Thanks for the support guys! I just expected this thread to die like any other thread. I'm glad y'all appreciate it! Hehe :)

Kdr is inaccurate. People may have lots of skills but is often rushed at.

[MightyMicah]

Kdr is inaccurate. People may have lots of skills but is often rushed at.

Thank you for responding to my statement without reading my thread...

Seriously. You do realize I covered that many times in this thread right?

[Noodleleg]

You guys... Rushers are my main source of kdr ^_^! 1v1 FFA's are usually in my favor and I just farm away xD! I'm Eco-friendly... Tree hugging is pro ^_^!

[Onagiabef]

x.x how long will it take me to get to a more even kdr...i'm over 4k negative :\

[XghostzX]

Nice thread Micah :)

[MightyMicah]

Nice thread Micah :)

Thanks, Ghost! :)

[Chang Yeo]

Enjoyed reading that :)
Nice post Micah!

[MightyMicah]

Enjoyed reading that :)
Nice post Micah!

Thanks so much, Chang Yeo!

[Fallen_Chisk_Angels]

x.x how long will it take me to get to a more even kdr...i'm over 4k negative :\

Did you not read the thread?

[Onagiabef]

Did you not read the thread?

Of course I did. But if I'm so far down negative will I ever get to an equalizer where I won't be as negative in the long run. I don't farm people. I also won't quit a game where i'm at a disadvantage. But people do look at your kdr and think noob I'm gonna farm them.

[CrimsonTider]

Of course I did. But if I'm so far down negative will I ever get to an equalizer where I won't be as negative in the long run. I don't farm people. I also won't quit a game where i'm at a disadvantage. But people do look at your kdr and think noob I'm gonna farm them.

Hide your stats. Drives them crazy not knowing if you are "easy" or not. ;)

[pvpman]

http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q492/Noodleleg/9cf9917c12ad1a0578e5e27deca5153a_zps4fce3ce3.jpg

LOL NOOBLE....hehe

[Mennddoza]

I don't really hear these myths haha

[MightyMicah]

I don't really hear these myths haha

You been gaming under a rock bro? ;)

[Lady_Pebbles]

Myth #4 contradicts Myths #1-3. o_O Lovely irony!

[MightyMicah]

Myth #4 contradicts Myths #1-3. o_O Lovely irony!



Just as ironic as making a conclusion about a thread that you barely skimmed.

[Lady_Pebbles]

[QUOTE=Lady_Pebbles;1022564]
Myth #4 contradicts Myths #1-3. o_O Lovely irony!



Just as ironic as making a conclusion about a thread that you barely skimmed.[/QUOTE
Actually read the entire thing and posted merely on what I found interesting lol.

]

[MightyMicah]

There is no contradiction in my thread actually.

[Lady_Pebbles]

[QUOTE=MightyMicah:1019051]
Myth #1- "Bad KDR means bad pvper!"

Myth #2- "Good KDR means good pvper!"

Myth #3- "The more kills, the more talent!"

Myth #4 (This one is my favorite) "KDR means nothing!"/QUOTE]

See it now? :)

Simple contradiction I was refering to. As a joke since it is rather ironic.

Anyway to hop back on topic: KDR pretty much means whatever players want it to mean.

High kdr? Them: "im like a boss" Me: "Sure... Farming kills or actually a team player?" ...

Low kdr high amount of goals? Them: "Like a boss..." Me: "Eh, do you even help your team mates out or just getting boosted?"

Its all in an individual views of it. Not really much to think about. Players just either want to play right or just farm. It happens.

[MightyMicah]

Your logic is slightly flawed. I wasn't saying those statements myself. I was referring to those statements that I have heard which are all myths.

If you're trying to point out the double negative of myth #4 then you're still mistaken. Just because KDR doesn't mean nothing, doesn't mean that it means everything. Lemme say that again differently. KDR means something, but not everything. Myths 1, 2, & 3 are all examples of what KDR does not mean. This doesn't mean that KDR means nothing. That was practically the entire point of this thread...

You're right about KDR being what players make it to be. That's another reason I made this thread: to try and get everyone on the same page and bring back some meaning to KDR.

[Lady_Pebbles]

Your logic is slightly flawed. I wasn't saying those statements myself. I was referring to those statements that I have heard which are all myths.

If you're trying to point out the double negative of myth #4 then you're still mistaken. Just because KDR doesn't mean nothing, doesn't mean that it means everything. Lemme say that again differently. KDR means something, but not everything. Myths 1, 2, & 3 are all examples of what KDR does not mean. This doesn't mean that KDR means nothing. That was practically the entire point of this thread...

You're right about KDR being what players make it to be. That's another reason I made this thread: to try and get everyone on the same page and bring back some meaning to KDR.
Actually, it seems your logic is the one flawed... I didn't say that you say that... nor did I say kdr means everything. I merely quoted you to show you why I said its a contradiction. I don't see how you can misunderstand what IM trying to say lol. Wow... Smh.

I think players will put their own meanings behind everything. For example, the word "noob" is often referenced to an annoying unexperienced player. However, some players just see it as all new players in general, which often isn't the case. So kdr just basicly means whatever players want it to mean, but at its core it simply means just that, a kdr. Nothing more & nothing less.

[CrimsonTider]

Children....

Is it time for time-out?

;)

[gaanikejrjr]

Micah wasnt one of those people who got their butts handed to them kathara she has 20k kills and i think i remeber yall rushing each other back in 51 days

[Zerious]

Myth #4 contradicts Myths #1-3. o_O Lovely irony!



If you look at each myth as an individual scenario, you'll see that Micah wasn't contradicting his own statements, but only stating them as examples.

I don't contract myself by saying "player one says white is bad", followed by "player one says white is good". I'm simply stating my observations, while player 1 is, in fact, the only contrary thing in the situation. Micah's post holds the exact same relation. The myths don't contradict each other, because they are separate of one another. If all of the myths originated from one source, that source would be contrary of itself.

Advanced English Lessons after Dinner hosted by Zerious

[MightyMicah]

Micah wasnt one of those people who got their butts handed to them kathara she has 20k kills and i think i remeber yall rushing each other back in 51 days

There was a time when Katahra and I were enemies but that was forever ago! Probably nearly two years ago. Since then we've been good friends. Honestly, though, if Katahra and I went head to head back in the day, I probably would have been the one getting my butt handed to me. Nowadays, with forgotten bows, it's harder to say. Plus Katahra is 56 now so I don't know. :)

[Nutslammer]

I like the way you explained these myths. You are very accurate as you use the words most likely and never say this rule applies to everyone if this particular situation is evident. Good job on this.

[MightyMicah]

I like the way you explained these myths. You are very accurate as you use the words most likely and never say this rule applies to everyone if this particular situation is evident. Good job on this.

Thank you so much! I do try to be as accurate and precise as I can with the words that I use.

[Promagin]

I bes?

[OverkillED]

Everyone knows what a Kill-Death Ratio (KDR) is. It's the amount of kills you have divided by the amount of deaths. So if you have nine kills and three deaths, your KDR would be 3. In other words, the average amount of kills that you get per death. Ok, so everyone knows what it is, but it's come to my attention that few people understand it's significance.

How many of you have heard people say something like "KDR means nothing!" Or "You can't judge a guy by his KDR!" Or perhaps you're on the flip side and hear people say something like "Wow he's so pro! He has a 5-1 KDR!" What are we to make of these kind of statements? This is where my thread will come in handy. My goal in this thread is to examine just what a KDR is and what it means. I'll do this by dispelling several common myths that we hear all the time.

Myth #1- "Bad KDR means bad pvper!"

It is so easy to size somebody up right away by their KDR. Try not to! While, as a general rule, a good pvper will, on fact, tend to have a better KDR, that is not always the case. Many times the pvper will have just caught on to pvp and his KDR will have sucked from the previous couple weeks/months or however long he's played. Shoot, he may have even gotten several thousand kills negative and is just now catching up to positive status!

Another possibility that I've found to be fairly common is that the pvper sells free kills for in game gold. I don't even know if this is allowed (I wouldn't advise it) but it does happen.

A few other possibilities include a character that someone hasn't played on in a long while and since then has improved, a character who, perhaps, gets picked on a lot for whatever reason, a character who was in a rushing guild, etc. All things said and done, there are many, many reasons why a bad KDR does not equate with a bad pvper. If you need a specific example, check out Paaahudd (check birdy DM leader board) He's one of the most talented birds I know and he doesn't even have a 1.5 KDR.

Myth #2- "Good KDR means good pvper!"

Similarly to the first myth, a good KDR doesn't mean that they're good at pvp! I know so, so many boosters! (I won't name any names) Also, a lot of times the pvper with the epic KDR doesn't even fight anyone with talent. They simply challenge the weaklings and farm the new guys. Now, this doesn't mean that everyone with a good KDR is a bad pvper. It just means that you can't judge somebody's talent by their KDR.

Myth #3- "The more kills, the more talent!"

This is also a very popular myth. Many people think that the more kills you have, the better you are at pvp. Not at all!!! The only thing that more kills means is that you've spent more time playing the game. Sure, it is very possible that by spending more time on the game, you've acquired more experience and skill. However, that doesn't have to be the case. I don't know how many cocky "pros" with some 20k+ kills have gotten mad at me for whatever reason and began rushing me only to get their butts handed to them. I don't say this to put myself up. I'm saying this to prove the point that lots of kills really doesn't mean anything more than lots of play time.

Even that last statement I made isn't always true! I remember when a guy (forgot his name) gave his account to a buddy of his. He had an intense amount of kills with like a 4-1 KDR and I don't think he even knew how to chat...much less pvp.

Myth #4 (This one is my favorite) "KDR means nothing!"

This is perhaps the greatest myth of them all and the original reason why I began writing this thread. We have already seen one reason why this simply isn't true! The bigger the amount of kills and deaths, the more time they have spent in the arena. However, this is a very minor detail considering everything else that you can determine about a person by their KDR.

I've also found KDR to be a very good indicator of a characters pvp style. When I watch another level 50 take out a glyph a couple times in a row and he has a KDR of 4,000+ kills to 3,000+ deaths, there's a very good chance that he's very reckless. He probably rushes a lot and doesn't back down ever. My guess is he's seen a lot of FFA and been teamed many times as well.

Now, if a guy has say a 4,000 kills and 1,000 deaths KDR, it paints a totally different picture. That good of a KDR can't come easy. There's a very good chance the person boosts, fights lower levels, doesn't FFA too much, teams a lot, etc. He will most likely get more upset than most if you rush him and probably doesn't hand out frees either.

There's only so many examples I can give, but I think you get the idea. KDR means a TON. It may not be a good indication of skill, but it certainly speaks volumes about everything else. Learn to read people's KDR's. Never assume anything, but always study other's KDR's.

Just figured I'd try and post a little something helpful since I haven't really tried to help anybody lately! Hopefully you learned something! :)
-MM

I'm a bit half and half, more on the reckless side.

[Subscriber]

Well you've changed a lot.

KDR means nothing, I'll stick with that.

[Sryyoulose]

Just saw this post, it's beautiful.

[MightyMicah]

Just saw this post, it's beautiful.

Haha thanks! :)

[pahud]

I started out with 5k kills, 10k deaths. Keep it up ona, you will get better at it as time goes.

Nice post Micah, well done. +1

[Bunnyshoota]

micah ruins my 56 mage's kdr >.>

[MightyMicah]

I started out with 5k kills, 10k deaths. Keep it up ona, you will get better at it as time goes.

Nice post Micah, well done. +1

Ona, if you're gonna listen to anyone at all, listen to this guy. He taught me just about everything I know.


micah ruins my 56 mage's kdr >.>

Lol are you barbecue?

[Brave Sir Robin]

What I like most in your post is that you keep the balance right: kdr does not mean everything, but it's not useless either.

I would like to add here that kdr and leaderboards in general are not that important in this game, as there are no consequences if someone has low ratings or benefits if someone has high. In fact, some might just choose to hide their stats and be happy about it :) In other games ratings are very important as there are closed tournaments in which a certain rating is required to enter.

In any case, when it comes to judging who are the most successful PVPers, I believe that wins in tournaments (or good results) is all that matters. It's up to the community leaders (Tournament Leaders and/or GoAs) to post and manage a "Hall of Fame" thread which lists official tournament winners.

Edit: Actually as Crim pointed out a Hall of Fame section exists in the forums: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/tournaments.php?do=hof

[MightyMicah]

What I like most in your post is that you keep the balance right: kdr does not mean everything, but it's not useless either.

I would like to add here that kdr and leaderboards in general are not that important in this game, as there are no consequences if someone has low ratings or benefits if someone has high. In fact, some might just choose to hide their stats and be happy about it :) In other games ratings are very important as there are closed tournaments in which a certain rating is required to enter.

In any case, when it comes to judging who are the most successful PVPers, I believe that wins in tournaments (or good results) is all that matters. It's up to the community leaders (Tournament Leaders and/or GoAs) to post and manage a "Hall of Fame" thread which lists official tournament winners.

Very good points! Although I disagree to some extent about tournaments. I've entered two tournaments in the past and both times I lost due to the fact that my opponent was essentially the "counter" build to mine. For instance a dex Mage vs a dex bird. It's my humble opinion that 1v1 (whether FFA or not) is still no indication of skill.

[Zeus]

Very good points! Although I disagree to some extent about tournaments. I've entered two tournaments in the past and both times I lost due to the fact that my opponent was essentially the "counter" build to mine. For instance a dex Mage vs a dex bird. It's my humble opinion that 1v1 (whether FFA or not) is still no indication of skill.

For the same class, it definitely is skill. After all, isn't the objective of a tourney to determine who has the most effective build and skills vs. other seasoned players?

[XghostzX]

What I like most in your post is that you keep the balance right: kdr does not mean everything, but it's not useless either.

I would like to add here that kdr and leaderboards in general are not that important in this game, as there are no consequences if someone has low ratings or benefits if someone has high. In fact, some might just choose to hide their stats and be happy about it :) In other games ratings are very important as there are closed tournaments in which a certain rating is required to enter.

In any case, when it comes to judging who are the most successful PVPers, I believe that wins in tournaments (or good results) is all that matters. It's up to the community leaders (Tournament Leaders and/or GoAs) to post and manage a "Hall of Fame" thread which lists official tournament winners.

If I'm bored and have time, I might do this for the end game community.

[CrimsonTider]

What I like most in your post is that you keep the balance right: kdr does not mean everything, but it's not useless either.

I would like to add here that kdr and leaderboards in general are not that important in this game, as there are no consequences if someone has low ratings or benefits if someone has high. In fact, some might just choose to hide their stats and be happy about it :) In other games ratings are very important as there are closed tournaments in which a certain rating is required to enter.

In any case, when it comes to judging who are the most successful PVPers, I believe that wins in tournaments (or good results) is all that matters. It's up to the community leaders (Tournament Leaders and/or GoAs) to post and manage a "Hall of Fame" thread which lists official tournament winners.

STS actually implemented this in the "Tournament" section of the forums. Each official tournament participant is logged as well as those who win.

[MightyMicah]

For the same class, it definitely is skill. After all, isn't the objective of a tourney to determine who has the most effective build and skills vs. other seasoned players?

If it is the same class, then I agree. When it's multiple classes, it becomes who has the right character and build at the time and at the level. Since I don't have 50 billion characters, I don't have the luxury xD

[Brave Sir Robin]

For the same class, it definitely is skill. After all, isn't the objective of a tourney to determine who has the most effective build and skills vs. other seasoned players?

If it is the same class, then I agree. When it's multiple classes, it becomes who has the right character and build at the time and at the level. Since I don't have 50 billion characters, I don't have the luxury xD

Yes. Latest official tournaments are not only class specific, but some have restrictions in gear as well (e.g. Show me the bird - only dex gear).


If I'm bored and have time, I might do this for the end game community.

This would be great. Although there is the Hall of Fame section, it could be a more extensive thread, e.g. listing 2nd - 4th places and other honorable mentions. Most of this info is available of course but it requires some digging - I feel it's a bit unfair to people who do constantly well but don't win in the end.

We could also estimate ratings for official tournaments starting with the next one. There is an Elo calculator in the tournament's section (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/ladders.php?do=elorating) and I could help with the estimation if you want.

[gison]

Good job man!

[MightyMicah]

Good job man!

Thanks! I appreciate the support!

[Gideon Jean-Claude]

Great thread MM that I can relate to all to well. Had someone the other day inspect me on my lvl 5 twink mage and say, "Your KDR >-<", but I've only pvp'd with 10-15's with the exception of one 6, and one 10 dex bear with forg would farm kills off me while I talked with other players instead of trying the other 10+'s.

[MightyMicah]

I hate to bump my own thread, but I've read so much crap on the forums lately about who has this and that KDR. Please read.

[Mercantilism]

Please do read. So many of my friends get rushed by supposedly "respected" and "pro" players of the community when they join a game with a crap KDR char with bad gear.

[aav5224]

i dont like being rushed

[aav5224]

my kd is still pwro

[Gragorak]

I hate to bump my own thread, but I've read so much crap on the forums lately about who has this and that KDR. Please read.
I feel your pain.



The funny thing is that people get so worked up on K/D ratio. It really does not mean much for skill. There's plenty of kill farming going on still.

Total kills might represent some degree of experience. Experience is correlated with skill strongly, but at the same time, with kill farming being what it is. The other is that some people do inevitably have slower learning curves. The point is that you should not get too worked up over these. In fact, I might regard a person with a 1 to 1 K/D ratio more highly than a person with a very high ratio. The reason being that they are more likely to have fought very tough opponents and are more likely to be more skilled in this regard than someone with a really high K/D ratio. Some of the greatest players of PL PvP did not have very high K/D ratios.

Source: Personal experience. I may have been an average skilled player (in my opinion I was anyways), but I do have enough experience to know who was a capable player and who was not. Let me put it this way, you won't know how good your opponent is, until you fight them many times.
I see where you're coming from, but I'd have to disagree. Nine times out of ten when I fight someone with a 1/1 KDR, I'm able to beat them. Then again, I mostly twink so I suppose that could change things.

Ah, the hypocrisy.

[MightyMicah]

Ah, the hypocrisy.

There is no hypocrisy. I made this thread to raise awareness about what KDR means and doesn't mean. In my experience, I have been able to beat those with 1/1 KDR's nine times out of ten. This doesn't mean that everyone with a 1/1 KDR can be beaten nine out of ten times. There are exceptions to every rule. (I fought a Mage the other week with a negative KDR who beat me as often as I beat him.)

Here's a quote from this thread:

While, as a general rule, a good pvper will, in fact, tend to have a better KDR, that is not always the case.

Please spend more time reading my thread with an open mind to learn something, and less time trying to find an error.

[Caiahar]

Ah, the hypocrisy.

There is no hypocrisy. I made this thread to raise awareness about what KDR means and doesn't mean. In my experience, I have been able to beat those with 1/1 KDR's nine times out of ten. This doesn't mean that everyone with a 1/1 KDR can be beaten nine out of ten times. There are exceptions to every rule. (I fought a Mage the other week with a negative KDR who beat me as often as I beat him.)

Here's a quote from this thread:

While, as a general rule, a good pvper will, in fact, tend to have a better KDR, that is not always the case.

Please spend more time reading my thread with an open mind to learn something, and less time trying to find an error.
I remember this awesome thread as well :)

And erm...you just quoted yourself after Gragroaks quote :/

[Burningdex]

There is no hypocrisy. I made this thread to raise awareness about what KDR means and doesn't mean. In my experience, I have been able to beat those with 1/1 KDR's nine times out of ten. This doesn't mean that everyone with a 1/1 KDR can be beaten nine out of ten times. There are exceptions to every rule. (I fought a Mage the other week with a negative KDR who beat me as often as I beat him.)

Here's a quote from this thread:


Please spend more time reading my thread with an open mind to learn something, and less time trying to find an error.

Was dat char with neg kd me? :p havent played 51 in ages

[Gragorak]

There is no hypocrisy. I made this thread to raise awareness about what KDR means and doesn't mean. In my experience, I have been able to beat those with 1/1 KDR's nine times out of ten. This doesn't mean that everyone with a 1/1 KDR can be beaten nine out of ten times. There are exceptions to every rule. (I fought a Mage the other week with a negative KDR who beat me as often as I beat him.)
Yeah, but there's clearly a contradiction between the general spirit of this thread (KDR isn't so important measure of skill and it shouldn't be something to care about) and that your old response to WhoIsThis. WhoIsThis said that "KDR doesn't mean much for skill", and you disagreed. Now you're here bumbing your thread which clearly states that KDR doesn't really tell much about skill. It looks like there's a huge contradiction between your reply to WhoIsThis in Caztori's KDR thread and this thread, don't you think?

So many things affect KDR, that it just doesn't tell much about skill.

Actions that make KDR better:

Boosting.
Farming ungeared noobs.
Refusing to fight more skilled players.
Never playing FFA/CTF.
Leaving FFA/CTF games if is in the losing team/team members aren't the most skilled veterans out there.
Only calling weaker players in GO matches.
Using forgotten (prior nerf)/halloween/plat pack gear against people with legit gear.
Teaming & spawning.
Playing against lower levels.

Actions that make KDR worse:

Playing lots of FFA/CTF.
Playing mainly with more skilled players, aka trying to improve own skill level and tactics.
Playing against higher level opponents.
Using legit gear against forgotten bows/halloween gear/plat packs.
Trying to fight back while getting teamed and/or spawned.

Can you honestly say that KDR reflects players skill at all? At least at my main pvp range, 22-26, good players tend to have KDR 1.0-2.0, while those who have higher tend to be less skilled. Foxsmash for example is probably the best 22 fox post-nerf, and his KDR is about 1.0. Many foxes who have KDR 3.0+ can only dream about killing him.

Of course this could be completely different at sewer pvp, I haven't played that level range much.



Please spend more time reading my thread with an open mind to learn something, and less time trying to find an error.
I've read this thread thoroughly twice now, once when you originally posted it and yesterday. I don't feel I'd need to spend more time with it. It's well written post with good thoughts, but is is in great contradiction with your response to WhoIsThis few weeks ago.

[dudetus]

If rushing is PvP and afterwards using things to kdr at pvp, how does dodge kill many achievements?

[MightyMicah]

Gregorak: You have stacked the deck on your side and refused to acknowledge the point of this thread, and the message I was conveying in WhoIsThis' thread. There remains no contradiction. Allow me to elaborate.

First of all, there are two main ideas in this thread. Once you understand these, you'll understand what I'm saying. These two ideas are:
1. KDR does not always have a direct link to skill. (Notice the qualification "does not always." This is an exception, not a rule, that I am expressing.)
2. KDR definitely means something, but not what people generally say it means. (See #4 in my original thread. That was dedicated to the idea that KDR does mean something.)

In this thread, my goal was to bring to light that you should not simply chalk up a KDR to meaning skill, or no skill directly proportional to good KDR, or bad KDR. Instead, you should read KDR's very carefully to find our what they do tell you. In WhoIsThis' thread I did just that. Most times, (9 out of 10 to be excact) when I face an opponent who has a 1/1 KDR, I can beat them. Why doesn't this contradict this thread? Because I read their KDR in order to deduce this. Seemingly, I chalked them up to having no skill due to a bad KDR, but that isn't quite the case. Most talented pvpers can experience every negative effect that you listed, and still maintain higher than a 1/1 KDR. Granted, there ARE exceptional cases that I listed in my original thread, but those are exceptions. This is why I quoted myself (Shadowstar) in the previous comment I posted.

The idea is that you can never know anything for certain by looking at KDR. Because you can't know anything for certain, you should not assume anything to be true. However, you should do your best to try and deduce what a KDR means. Just don't judge so shallow as "Good KDR means good pvper bad KDR means bad pvper."

It seems you have misrepresented my thread to mean, "Stop judging by KDR." When, in fact, my thread is saying something more like, "Stop judging falsely by KDR."

[MightyMicah]

If rushing is PvP and afterwards using things to kdr at pvp, how does dodge kill many achievements?

Insightful as always, dude xD


Was dat char with neg kd me? :p havent played 51 in ages

No, but if I fought you, it would have been ;)


I remember this awesome thread as well :)

And erm...you just quoted yourself after Gragroaks quote :/

Hehe...I was quoting it to reinforce that the original statement of this thread acknowledged the rule ;)

[Caiahar]

Dang it, my rhino has 1.6/1.8 KD
I guess I suck..

;)




All for one, and one for all.

[dudetus]

Insightful as always, dude xD

Yes, Ik I can be a nuisance sometimes but there's also that serious part in me who wants to contribute to the discussion :)