***The Forgotten Myth: Debunking the "OP" Talk***

[CrimsonTider]

Preface

The Forgotten Event came to the PL community in August, 2012. Despite the originality and great fun of this event, the aftermath has been less than desired. Threads upon numerous threads have been made to discuss the "OMG over powered Forgotten weapons." Despite the advantages in PvE, exciting, new items to merch and collect, and what many thought would bring new strategy and testing to PvP, many would like to take the names of these weapons literally and "Forget them." Yet, with all of the talk, discussing, flaming, and raging over these weapons, not one single thread has been made to actually compare/contrast these weapons with others used in PL... Until now.

This thread is an attempt to look at the complaints/issues associated with the Forgotten weapons (more specifically the bow(s)), and provide actual data to make a more informed decision on the efficacy of their existence within the game.

***DISCLAIMER***

I ask as you read the information below, each of you keep on open mind despite your stance. This thread is not an attack to those who want the items removed, nor a representation for those who are for the items. Any discussion outside constructive criticism, data analysis, or friendly discussion will be automatically reported. In other words, put your "big boy pants" on before reading. If you cannot follow these simple requests, please stop reading now and exit or do not comment.

The Over-powered (OP) Forgotten Weapons

For the sake of a more lengthy discussion, we will limit this portion of the thread to bows only. During the Forgotten event, many quickly discovered how weapons could be farmed at each level starting at 10. To many, especially farmers and PvE specialists, this provided a new and exciting opportunity to earn gold while seeing a steady flow of "pink." A steady comeback of veterans was seen and toons were being created and "power-leveled" at a frenetic pace so as to gain as many of these limited items as possible. I was able to gather a mass of over 400 pinks (mostly bows) and almost 1000 total items. At one time, I was in possession of one of each weapon at every level from 10-71. Despite the rush to farm and the overall success of the event, it didn't take long for a growing number of individuals to form and present their dismay for these items.

Some of the most common arguments against the Forgotten items are their massive increase in damage (rendering old twinking items useless and merely collector's items) and the Blinding proc of the bow. These arguments range from nerfing the items to completely removing them from the game. Suggestions have been made to have a second Forgotten event to provide helms/armor to counteract the power of the weapons. However, those against this idea look at it as having the same results as the first event: Rendering collectible/discontinued twink items as useless. Many thought/hoped the 2012 WinterFest event would even the playing field, but this did not happen.

But wait, what about the 2012 Halloween event? Some may say "Halloween items have always had horrible stats," and "Those items are only good for looks or collecting." This has always been true, until now. When disbelief is turned into fact, the 2012 Halloween items are in fact comparable to the forgotten items, and in some cases, are just as OP as the Forgotten items. And until now, no one has taken the time to actually compare/contrast these items.

Data concerning 2012 Halloween items and Forgotten bows

Enough talk. It is time to let the pictures do the talking. Below you will find pictures which will provide statistical data in reference to Forgotten bows and the comparable Halloween Pumpkin Chunker. I focused on two of the more discussed levels when these issues come to light: Levels 35 and 15.

Let's begin at 35:

I no longer have a bird at this level so I used one of my bears to serve the purpose of this thread. He is a level 36 initially equipped with a shivering set with talon, then will move to a Green Ice xbow, Lv 35 Forgotten bow, and finally a 35 Pumpkin Chunker.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-33-01.png

Stomp Damage with this set is 142-153 at level 6.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-45-46.png

Stomp Damage is now 147-158.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-33-27.png

Stomp Damage with Chunker is 192-202.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-33-32.png

Stomp Damage is 197-207 with the Forgotten bow.

Until the introduction of the Forgotten bow, many dex bears (most common dex character at this level) used either the Shivering talon set or an xbow. Builds and playstyles determined the efficacy of which to use. Armor vs. range. The freezing proc served well with a bears Stomp skill to provide a combo. The slightly higher base damage of the xbow was not enough to make it a clear cut favorite over the talon. The only clear disadvantage to either set: Those pesky Voodoo's.

Then came the Forgotten bows. We can tell by the stats they are much more powerful than the two "classic" options, but create a greater loss of mana regen which is much more critical in the long term than at upper levels of PvP. This increase in damage also greatly increases the skill damage as we see a rise of 50 damage over the Shivering options. But look at option 4: The Pumpking Chunker. The EXACT same stats as the Forgotten bow with only 5 less damage. Yes, the Forgotten Bow has the proc we spoke of earlier, but, as we will see next, the Chunker has superior range. So, when speaking on the topic of "over powered", we are looking at a difference of 5 damage vs range. Let me add, before the discussion of damage/proc > range, let me remind those who weren't around how much more powerful the Custom Recurve is versus the Xbow yet many swear by the Xbow. Should we also discuss how, again before the Forgotten event, the 10-20ish crowd were constantly debating between talons and snowball launchers. Launcher had slightly more damage and a proc, but many preferred the talon. Sound familiar?

When discussing range, let the pictures do the talking:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-44-41.png
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-49-10.png
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-51-57.png

The pictures obviously represent themselves. The range discussion clearly belongs to the Chunker. Why do I bring this up? Since I first started participating in PvP, I have always been told that range is king. Master the range of your weapons and skills, master PvP. However, since the introduction of the Forgotten weapons, we hear less of this and more about the damage of these weapons. So I pose the question: If the range is superior and the base damage is comparable, why is the chunker NOT a viable option?

While we ponder this set of data, let's look at the next highly populated level of PvP: Level 15. Same as above, however, I have thrown in a slight twist. I'll let you see what I did.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-10-05-39.png

Stomp damage is 110-121 at level 5.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-10-07-09.png

Stomp damage with Forgotten bow is 108-118.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-10-06-05.png

Stomp damage with the Chunker is 107-117.

It is well known how "insignificant" the talons and snowball launchers/duckfoots have become. From all accounts and posts, Forgotten rules the lover levels. So I decided to twist it up a bit and look at the Reaper blade. Please remember all weapons are of the same level and I fully understand Forgotten weapons can scale per level; I am strictly looking at the level 15 versions.

I chose the Reaper blade in this comparison for one reason: Base damage. Long has been the misunderstanding that DPS rules. Base damage is the prime factor in determining skill damage and is more than visible above. The Reaper blade provides a higher low-end base damage and more powerful Stomp. In comparison with previous "slashing" twink weapons, this weapon is by far the most powerful STS has released, with NO complaints. Hmmm...

When comparing the Forgotten bow and the Pumpkin Chunker, we come to the same agreement as before: Comparable damage versus range. At this level more than any other level of PvP I have participated in I have been told "Know your range, rule 10-20." The new factor in all of this is now the fact that birds are more effective than ever before. Very few were able to compete against bears and this change in demographics has really caused a great unsettling. So if the Chunker has superior range and the same (basically) damage, shouldn't an experienced Chunker user be able to beat a "noob" Forgotten user?

But let's not end this debate here. If we truly want to dive into the "OP" discussion, should we not look into just how much the Halloween items improved? Look at this.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-54-05.png

Stomp damage with a complete Copper set using the "typical" build is 147-160.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-09-54-22.png

Stomp damage using Copper gear with a Reaper blade is 179-193.

Since many can remember, Copper bears have been a popular build in 35 PvP. With the introduction of these new Halloween weapons, the trident is easily replaced by the Reaper blade. Yes, a slight loss in dexterity drops hit% slightly, and there is a loss in armor, but the vast difference in damage can, in the eyes of some, make up for these slight losses. And yet bears aren't the only group affected. Look below at what happens to my Voodoo mage:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-10-12-00.png
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x332/bryanreese77/Screenshot_2013-03-31-10-13-15.png

These pics show how the Monkey Paw and Bracer render my fire pin and Dreamer's Swamp juice as possibly inferior. Yet, I have not seen any complaints as to these newer items being more "op" compared to the traditional items.

Conclusion

We have looked at items from various events and at various levels. It is understood how Forgotten weapons (especially bows) took the PL community by storm and did cause drastic changes to PvP, more specifically the lower levels. We also see how this event wasn't the only one to make changes to how PL is played. The constant requests for "nerfiing" of the Forgotten bows may have actually been answered in some way. The purpose of this thread is to have those on both sides of the fence to step back and see there is more to this argument than just one single item, or even one stat associated with that item.

The beauty of PL has always been about how creative the community has been in various situations, especially with builds and answers to change. Sometimes, when change occurs abruptly or without warning, we tend to lose sight of the things that made this game once thrive. Sometimes we need to sit back and analyze before just attacking. It is also good to admit when we could be overreacting to something which may not be as big of an issue as we once thought.

Thank you for your time.

[JaytB]

You and your darn logic and facts.

I guess it's just easier for people to complain about it than actually taking the time to get their facts straight.

Great job! (For a noob) I'll thank this as soon as my thanks-button returns.

[Multibird]

Nice job!

[CrimsonTider]

You and your darn logic and facts.

I guess it's just easier for people to complain about it than actually taking the time to get their facts straight.

Great job! (For a noob) I'll thank this as soon as my thanks-button returns.

I learned from the biggest noob around. ;)


Nice job!

Thank you.

[Oldcoot]

Man, that was a good read and better food for thought. Great job on presentation .

[cookiez]

Nice nice nice!

I am on the side of i-dont-low-level-pvp-but-i-like-pvp-in-general-to-be-fun-and-to-take-skill. With the introduction of these bows. The need for more skills, timing, combos, etc has decreased significantly. (10-40) I truly think that at least 10-30 bows should be nerfed.

35 pvp: I have fought a made using paw, Bracer and voodoo helm, robe with my straight up voodoo. Not that unfair, the match was 10-8 her. Also with a pumpkin chunker it's not that hard because it's hard to kit if your frozen;) That match ended 5-10 me.

Crimsontider: The Reaper blade provides a higher low-end base damage and more powerful Stomp. In comparison with previous "slashing" twink weapons, this weapon is by far the most powerful STS has released, with NO complaints. Hmmm...

Because with any range weapon you can kit the crap outta a lvl 15 toon with a reaper blade.

And past the lvl of 50, fg bows, Halloween, items don't really matter. The armor and stuff of other gears beat fg bows so it's not a big deal here.

P.s. custom lb is better than xbow by far

[Sryyoulose]

Great thread! I'm now going to go sell my forgotten bow to anyone who wants it bye...

[McBain]

Real talk.

[Yich]

So lets talk h'ween items. Melee weapons, to me, are out of the question. Why? No beckon, and birds have repulse/roots. Tree hugging is nice but it stops when bears dont have beckon but birds have repulse. Crossbows with no blind proc wont work unless you're SUPER pro and can stay at 13m range and not go into 12m range, but seriously that's not going to happen. As soon as the bird gets into 12m range you'll get nuked. For bear vs bear, the chunker is stronger, but your enemy will tree hug. Keep in mind, tree hugging and kiting only create a stalemate, not a win, unless your opponent is stupid. Yes, the reaper blade is pretty strong, but melee weapons just arent plausible when you dont have beckon or a mean of even getting to your opponent as a bear. Mages are just ungodly squishy before they get their MS and buffs. Foxes and rhinos I really dont care about.

EDIT: Thanks, Crim

[XghostzX]

I love it Crim, excellent thread. *Waiting for 100's of thanks to be given*

I know you put a lot of work into this, and it was interesting considering I don't really do twinking and using fbows. This was cool :)

[CrimsonTider]

So lets talk h'ween items. Melee weapons, to me, are out of the question. Why? No beckon, and birds have repulse/roots. Tree hugging is nice but it stops when bears dont have beckon but birds have repulse. Crossbows with no blind proc wont work unless you're SUPER pro and can stay at 13m range and not go into 12m range, but seriously that's not going to happen. As soon as the bird gets into 12m range you'll get nuked. For bear vs bear, the chunker is stronger, but your enemy will tree hug. Keep in mind, tree hugging and kiting only create a stalemate, not a win, unless your opponent is stupid. Yes, the reaper blade is pretty strong, but melee weapons just arent plausible when you dont have beckon or a mean of even getting to your opponent as a bear. Mages are just ungodly squishy before they get their MS and buffs. Foxes and rhinos I really dont care about.

EDIT: Thanks, Crim

You're missing the the forest for the trees. The reaper blade is an example that change is occurring in more than one realm. Also, I know your passion is 17, but this thread is representative of all levels affected by these two events. I just used those two examples so the thread would not be anymore exhaustingly longer than it already is. But I understand your points, I just feel there are more to be made.

[Deathofan]

Lets put halloween aside. At most levels most can agree fbows are overpowered, specially 10-20 pvp. But the problem is, birds were left out of pvp because bows ranging from 10-40 were truely underpowered. A good example is bayou bow or swamp rat set, compared to how copperhead fits the bear and voodoo to mage, dex birds were left out forcing them to change strengh such as iceberg longsword birds, bayou bow has 30-32? With a pure dex dmg build the most dmg you could reach was 80-82 with 35armor, while bears and mages were rocking with 100+ dmg 60+ armor. Fbows did boost the playability of dex birds, but not in the right way. Fbows overcame all gear on the current level by a great margin, and that should've not happened, imo it should've been balanced out with the same level gear. Ex:l15 sbl has 32-38 dmg with freeze proc, fbow could have had 36-42 with blind proc, deciding wether to use a proc that I can combo on, or proc that will give me survivality. Informative thread!

[Caiahar]

Forget Halloween, I can even beat ppl with paw, or chunker, or ghoulish bracer with my voodoo. Im planning on using chunjer myself.
But forg bows! How about sts makes a restriction "Forgotten Bows PvE only!" Im not sure about forg staffs and blade. I usually use forg staffs to counter forg bow ppl.

[CrimsonTider]

Lets put halloween aside. At most levels most can agree fbows are overpowered, specially 10-20 pvp. But the problem is, birds were left out of pvp because bows ranging from 10-40 were truely underpowered. A good example is bayou bow or swamp rat set, compared to how copperhead fits the bear and voodoo to mage, dex birds were left out forcing them to change strengh such as iceberg longsword birds, bayou bow has 30-32? With a pure dex dmg build the most dmg you could reach was 80-82 with 35armor, while bears and mages were rocking with 100+ dmg 60+ armor. Fbows did boost the playability of dex birds, but not in the right way. Fbows overcame all gear on the current level by a great margin, and that should've not happened, imo it should've been balanced out with the same level gear. Ex:l15 sbl has 32-38 dmg with freeze proc, fbow could have had 36-42 with blind proc, deciding wether to use a proc that I can combo on, or proc that will give me survivality. Informative thread!

Did you read the purpose of the thread? Your argument is exactly why I made this, too many are focusing TOO much on Forgotten items and not looking at the entire picture. We all understand Forgotten items are way more powerful than WF items. Now let's evolve and understand how Halloween items are as well.

[Caiahar]

@crimsontider: the two events that ruined pvp.
Halloween and Forgotten Treasure Event. Winterfest is no problem. Many low lvl "real" twinkerz use winterfest items. The forg bows ruined pvp. The copper trident was replaced with Reaper blade. Ive also seen shivering ppl use pumpkin chunker instead of shiveing bow. The paw replaced mambozas voodoo fire pin. Ghoulish bracer replaced voodoo doll.

[NotYoCookiez]

They should make all events like winterfest events: Not so bad stats but really awesome looking !

[Reunegade]

I have an idea. Crafting. Say you have a snowball launcher, and you think it's not good. You could get something like a Winter Festival Scrap and you need like, say, four of them. They only drop in Winter Festival. So you could craft that and you could get like a Elite Snowball Launcher, and that could be more powerful.

[Deathofan]

What can I say about halloween? Pumpkin Chunkers replaced all xbows all the way to l60, Reaper replaced all 1h meele weapons up to l55, Paws all the way to 45. Do they have same opportunity as forgotten users? Yes, but not like most people wanted to. The high damage on both halloween and forgotten bows overcome the armor on most pvp levels, thus making fights end up in 2-3 secs. If the purpose of this thread is to inform us halloween 1h weapons, shields, and pumpkins are good rivals to fight forgottens, guess not. Nobody likes to have 2-3 sec fights. If that wasn't the purpose, well you can still use that copper and voodoo set for leveling.

[Subscriber]

I can't really talk bad about this because I know you put a lot of work into it.

Good work Crim, nice read.

[CrimsonTider]

What can I say about halloween? Pumpkin Chunkers replaced all xbows all the way to l60, Reaper replaced all 1h meele weapons up to l55, Paws all the way to 45. Do they have same opportunity as forgotten users? Yes, but not like most people wanted to. The high damage on both halloween and forgotten bows overcome the armor on most pvp levels, thus making fights end up in 2-3 secs. If the purpose of this thread is to inform us halloween 1h weapons, shields, and pumpkins are good rivals to fight forgottens, guess not. Nobody likes to have 2-3 sec fights. If that wasn't the purpose, well you can still use that copper and voodoo set for leveling.

This statement just shows you didn't take the time to read the thread in it's entirety, otherwise you would know the purpose when I said "The purpose of this thread is..." You are jaded, we get it. Yich has been the strongest advocate for nerfing/removal Forgotten weapons and posed a much better response than both of yours combined.

As I said, if you cannot read the thread in it's entirety and keep an open mind, please leave.

@Subs and Ghost - Thank you. The community is coming to a point where it is almost worthless to do these type of threads anymore. Just easier to complain than actually put thought into the game like Physiologic, Ellyidol, Royce, Whoisthis, and many others. I see why they are gone now.

[MightyMicah]

Very excellent thread, Crim! It is really great to read someone who takes things logically, rationally, and realistically.

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

Anyways, great thread! I honestly wish the new Halloween and forgotten bows never came to this game. It seems to me that when there's a problem with a new powerful weapon, the solution isn't to add more weapons of equal or similar power, but rather to just fix that one new weapon. There are a lot of useless items and sets out there now due to these events.

[CrimsonTider]

Very excellent thread, Crim! It is really great to read someone who takes things logically, rationally, and realistically.

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

Anyways, great thread! I honestly wish the new Halloween and forgotten bows never came to this game. It seems to me that when there's a problem with a new powerful weapon, the solution isn't to add more weapons of equal or similar power, but rather to just fix that one new weapon. There are a lot of useless items and sets out there now due to these events.

Thanks for the feedback, Micah. I agree with your retreat/attack theory. I remember someone saying a few updates back that they felt the mechanics had changed when retreating. Wanna say it was Gaunab or Otu.... Can't really recall.

Also, yes, I shot at the barrels around 20 times with each weapon to get an accurate picture. (Really, I didn't want to look dumb. :)) I didn't post the pic of the green ice but it and the chunker had an equal distance which was greater than the FB.

Just wanted to get it out there that FB weren't the only weapons to get a steriod shot recently. Now that I think of it, I honestly wonder why WF items didn't get the bump Halloween did. If WF had gotten a similar increase, this thread (and all the others) may not exist.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Great read, I can't really say anything. I'm with sub.

[WarTornBird]

Very excellent thread, Crim! It is really great to read someone who takes things logically, rationally, and realistically.

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

Anyways, great thread! I honestly wish the new Halloween and forgotten bows never came to this game. It seems to me that when there's a problem with a new powerful weapon, the solution isn't to add more weapons of equal or similar power, but rather to just fix that one new weapon. There are a lot of useless items and sets out there now due to these events.

The whole range deal is very annoying. I've pointed this out many times. Birds firing off at me at 15m and I can't even fire my xbow.
As for the range of the bow. Every recurve is 10m and xbows are 13m. Forgotten being of the "recurve" family I guess.

[Caiahar]

I kinda disagree to ppl who say Halloween and forg stuff should be removed from game. I believe they should put a restriction to no Halloween items or forg weapons in pvp. Pve it would be fine. Anyone can use em. In pvp, no, pve, yes. If sts can put an Easter event, surely they can put this restriction in pvp for no forg weapons or no Halloween items.
Wouldnt this be good?

[MightyMicah]

Thanks for the feedback, Micah. I agree with your retreat/attack theory. I remember someone saying a few updates back that they felt the mechanics had changed when retreating. Wanna say it was Gaunab or Otu.... Can't really recall.

Also, yes, I shot at the barrels around 20 times with each weapon to get an accurate picture. (Really, I didn't want to look dumb. :)) I didn't post the pic of the green ice but it and the chunker had an equal distance which was greater than the FB.

Just wanted to get it out there that FB weren't the only weapons to get a steriod shot recently. Now that I think of it, I honestly wonder why WF items didn't get the bump Halloween did. If WF had gotten a similar increase, this thread (and all the others) may not exist.

No problem! I'm glad you agree cause I don't wanna sound like an idiot ;)

Ok awesome. I think it's safe to say it has less range then.


The whole range deal is very annoying. I've pointed this out many times. Birds firing off at me at 15m and I can't even fire my xbow.
As for the range of the bow. Every recurve is 10m and xbows are 13m. Forgotten being of the "recurve" family I guess.

Getting drained at 13 meter when I can't even repulse the Mage is also very annoying.

[Deathofan]

Yich has been the strongest advocate for nerfing/removal Forgotten weapons and posed a much better response than both of yours combined.

As I said, if you cannot read the thread in it's entirety and keep an open mind, please leave.


I don't think I've ever said that I would like them nerfed/removed from game, but suggested how things would have been good with. In fact, I like them alot for PvE purposes either for farming at a specific level or just leveling another character to a pvp level (my pvp territory is 56-76), I no longer do low lv pvp due to these bows.

As for the "please leave" part, all I did was talk about how this bows influenced over the archer which is still considered on topic. With that said, I will tell you the same thing you have said to many forumers, this is a public forum, and everyone has the equal rights to post within it, yes of course by staying on topic which I clearly did. Now if you have something agaisnt me (which I noticed on all the threads we were involved), it's fine, I care this . much as of it, just take it to the Pm's where we can make sure it gets fixed. This was not meant to be offensive, but to put some periods.

[Victorhm]

There is one little detail I'd like to point out, though. I believe you are somewhat misled about the pumpkin chunker. While at first I, as well, thought I'd be able to kite forgotten bows with the chunker, that turns out not to be the case. For some reason, when I am retreating from my enemy trying to keep their forgotten bow out of range, they are still able to shoot me. Believe me, I've tried this many, many times and it simply doesn't work. To be honest I'm still not exactly sure why but I've got two guesses.

1. I have reason to believe that your range slightly increases when advancing on your opponent. Likewise, I'm fairly certain that your range decreases while retreating from your opponent. Say what you will about this idea, but I've done a lot of testing and it does seem to be the case.

2. The forgotten bow does, in fact, have the same range as the chunker. Obviously your picture sort of debunked this idea, but are you positive you did the testing right?

I remember somebody, do not remember who, saying that when a player retreats he/she will gain an additional 2m range and when the player advances 2m is deducted from the range.
Ex.
(I'll use your example of getting hit with drain at 13m)
Bird vs mage
If the bird advances and the mage retreats then all the skills the mage has will be increased by the 2m. So considering this, one can be hit with a 12m skill at 14m.
I have pvped some and have noticed that I often get hit a lot from birds at some ridiculous range. Also, the inverse of what i said is true. When i advance and the enemy "should" be in my range, I find that i can never land a hit because they are "too far away".

@Crimsontider
I find this thread to be refreshing and informative. It is very different than most of the threads I have read lately, so I congratulate you on bringing your ideas forth and backing them up with facts and data.
I, personally, do not do low-level pvp, but I have heard many people voice their opinions towards forgotten bows. I like using the bow in pve so I am against them being taken out of game. Plus, many people spent actual money and time trying to farm the items so taking the bows away would infuriate more people than solve any of the actual problems. One solution I would to suggest, which has been suggested many times before, why not raise base health? With this idea that has been brought up many times fights would not end so quickly and more skill would be needed. Just a few things to consider ^_^

[CrimsonTider]

I remember somebody, do not remember who, saying that when a player retreats he/she will gain an additional 2m range and when the player advances 2m is deducted from the range.
Ex.
(I'll use your example of getting hit with drain at 13m)
Bird vs mage
If the bird advances and the mage retreats then all the skills the mage has will be increased by the 2m. So considering this, one can be hit with a 12m skill at 14m.
I have pvped some and have noticed that I often get hit a lot from birds at some ridiculous range. Also, the inverse of what i said is true. When i advance and the enemy "should" be in my range, I find that i can never land a hit because they are "too far away".

@Crimsontider
I find this thread to be refreshing and informative. It is very different than most of the threads I have read lately, so I congratulate you on bringing your ideas forth and backing them up with facts and data.
I, personally, do not do low-level pvp, but I have heard many people voice their opinions towards forgotten bows. I like using the bow in pve so I am against them being taken out of game. Plus, many people spent actual money and time trying to farm the items so taking the bows away would infuriate more people than solve any of the actual problems. One solution I would to suggest, which has been suggested many times before, why not raise base health? With this idea that has been brought up many times fights would not end so quickly and more skill would be needed. Just a few things to consider ^_^

Health does need to be raised. When damage continues to be increased but health is not, it is a much larger deal than the weapons themselves. Especially when gear does not provide such a boost. What many do not understand, or fail to see, is the game is not evolving as it should. We are coming very close to having end-game skills which hit at a higher number than what exists in the base health pool. (My 71 bird has a blast shot with a max of 590. Mages have base health of 400.)

But it always comes back to just getting rid of Forgotten bows as they are the ONLY problem. Did I mention my 71 bird doesn't use a FB? o.O

[Caiahar]

I remember somebody, do not remember who, saying that when a player retreats he/she will gain an additional 2m range and when the player advances 2m is deducted from the range.
Ex.
(I'll use your example of getting hit with drain at 13m)
Bird vs mage
If the bird advances and the mage retreats then all the skills the mage has will be increased by the 2m. So considering this, one can be hit with a 12m skill at 14m.
I have pvped some and have noticed that I often get hit a lot from birds at some ridiculous range. Also, the inverse of what i said is true. When i advance and the enemy "should" be in my range, I find that i can never land a hit because they are "too far away".

@Crimsontider
I find this thread to be refreshing and informative. It is very different than most of the threads I have read lately, so I congratulate you on bringing your ideas forth and backing them up with facts and data.
I, personally, do not do low-level pvp, but I have heard many people voice their opinions towards forgotten bows. I like using the bow in pve so I am against them being taken out of game. Plus, many people spent actual money and time trying to farm the items so taking the bows away would infuriate more people than solve any of the actual problems. One solution I would to suggest, which has been suggested many times before, why not raise base health? With this idea that has been brought up many times fights would not end so quickly and more skill would be needed. Just a few things to consider ^_^

Health does need to be raised. When damage continues to be increased but health is not, it is a much larger deal than the weapons themselves. Especially when gear does not provide such a boost. What many do not understand, or fail to see, is the game is not evolving as it should. We are coming very close to having end-game skills which hit at a higher number than what exists in the base health pool. (My 71 bird has a blast shot with a max of 590. Mages have base health of 400.)

But it always comes back to just getting rid of Forgotten bows as they are the ONLY problem. Did I mention my 71 bird doesn't use a FB? o.O

Getting rid of the forg bows....and Halloween items....I honestly think to stop this nonsense in pvp is to make forg bows/staff/blade and (maybe) Halloween items restricted to PvE Only. The forg weapons are very useful for farming characters.

[Oskitopee]

Health does need to be raised. When damage continues to be increased but health is not, it is a much larger deal than the weapons themselves. Especially when gear does not provide such a boost. What many do not understand, or fail to see, is the game is not evolving as it should. We are coming very close to having end-game skills which hit at a higher number than what exists in the base health pool. (My 71 bird has a blast shot with a max of 590. Mages have base health of 400.)

But it always comes back to just getting rid of Forgotten bows as they are the ONLY problem. Did I mention my 71 bird doesn't use a FB? o.O

Imagine if in a game like WoW we didn't get more health as we leveled up LOL.

[CrimsonTider]

I kinda disagree to ppl who say Halloween and forg stuff should be removed from game. I believe they should put a restriction to no Halloween items or forg weapons in pvp. Pve it would be fine. Anyone can use em. In pvp, no, pve, yes. If sts can put an Easter event, surely they can put this restriction in pvp for no forg weapons or no Halloween items.
Wouldnt this be good?


Getting rid of the forg bows....and Halloween items....I honestly think to stop this nonsense in pvp is to make forg bows/staff/blade and (maybe) Halloween items restricted to PvE Only. The forg weapons are very useful for farming characters.

Only need to post your stance once. Repeating your desires is exactly what I said I did NOT want in this thread. This is the crap we have seen on forums for the last 7+ months. Please bring something valuable to the table or stop posting in this thread.

Thank you.

[loliamsocool]

I don't know how to quote a section of an essay, so..you stated that Range is king..then you compare a ranged forgotten bow with damage almost identical to a NON RANGED weapon as a small argument towards the nerf forgotten bow stance. I'm strictly low level pvper at 10-26 so I'm obviously extremely biased when it comes to weapons for the good of the entire community, but an easy solution would just be to nerf forgotten bows at a certain level of pvp..i.e. at levels 10-whatever is considered non op forgotten bow. I've heard at endgame that the forgotten bow is merely what snowball launchers were to 20 pvp back in 2011 so those dont need to be nerfed. Why all the argument over a simple solution?

[CrimsonTider]

I don't know how to quote a section of an essay, so..you stated that Range is king..then you compare a ranged forgotten bow with damage almost identical to a NON RANGED weapon as a small argument towards the nerf forgotten bow stance. I'm strictly low level pvper at 10-26 so I'm obviously extremely biased when it comes to weapons for the good of the entire community, but an easy solution would just be to nerf forgotten bows at a certain level of pvp..i.e. at levels 10-whatever is considered non op forgotten bow. I've heard at endgame that the forgotten bow is merely what snowball launchers were to 20 pvp back in 2011 so those dont need to be nerfed. Why all the argument over a simple solution?

Considering I compared/contrasted approximately 11 weapons at various ranges and the majority of the argument was between FB and Halloween Chunkers, which I stated/proved have higher range, please explain again what you missed. I also never said "Range is king." Using basic reading skills I said that when I started PvP, many of the pro's in-game and on forums have always explained that knowing your range is what separates the "pro's" from the rest. (I.E. Range is king.)

Also, if you had read the thread in it's entirety, the main non-ranged weapons (also known as melee weapons) I compared were the Copperhead Trident and the level 35 Reaper blade to show STS bumped the damage up for more weapons other than just Forgotten. For 2 1/2 years, Copper bears used the trident because it completed the set and has a break armor proc. With the increase in damage of the Reaper blade, the trident has become the lvl 35 equivalent of the lvl 15 snowball launcher.

Again, as he disclaimer stated, read the thread in it's entirety and come with an open mind. Keeps me from having to explain issues which have already been explained.

[loliamsocool]

Considering I compared/contrasted approximately 11 weapons at various ranges and the majority of the argument was between FB and Halloween Chunkers, which I stated/proved have higher range, please explain again what you missed. I also never said "Range is king." Using basic reading skills I said that when I started PvP, many of the pro's in-game and on forums have always explained that knowing your range is what separates the "pro's" from the rest. (I.E. Range is king.)

Also, if you had read the thread in it's entirety, the main non-ranged weapons (also known as melee weapons) I compared were the Copperhead Trident and the level 35 Reaper blade to show STS bumped the damage up for more weapons other than just Forgotten. For 2 1/2 years, Copper bears used the trident because it completed the set and has a break armor proc. With the increase in damage of the Reaper blade, the trident has become the lvl 35 equivalent of the lvl 15 snowball launcher.

Again, as he disclaimer stated, read the thread in it's entirety and come with an open mind. Keeps me from having to explain issues which have already been explained.

you actually did say that you were taught range is king in a post on this thread somewhere or even on the original post. please do not bash me for my reading skills whenever you actually just stated my point in your counter argument "knowing your range".

I was typing up a counter argument for all your points but i pressed some f# button deleting all my words and now i dont have the heart to do it lol today...perhaps tomorrow.
also since i am an addicted level 15 i will tell you right now talon vs snowballs is an absolute unfair comparison to fbows vs. traditional weapons lol, for one,

talons are way better/easier than snowballs simply because of the higher hit% combined with armor, and the way you have to fight with snowballs is much different than talon fights, and requires MUCH more knowledge of skills...in essence a snowball fight is staying JUST outside of your opponents stomp range while waiting for ice to proc.
the only 15 i dread using snowball is/was bous because he actually has the extreme knowledge/luck required to use snowball

also another point at level 20 when snowball came out, was the main level. The reason why talon are better at that level is because the method of fighting then was hell scream first aka called wreck your opponents hit%..
and as im sure youve noticed talons have better hit % than snowballs.

lolty off my soap box and hopefully tomorrow ill try and effectively convey my point in a counter argument on this thread lol

fix: also lol my problem was with you even attempting to include a reaper blade argument in *LEVEL 15* PVP *ON A BEAR*, where melee is completely useless and any amount of damage put on them will have no use whatsoever. lol.

[Zeus]

The answer is not to nerf forgotten bows, but increase damage reduction algorithm Asommers put into PvP when weapon damage was getting too high.

I'm sure bumping up the percentage won't take much effort at all and in turn, we will have a lot of satisfied PvPers.

[loliamsocool]

The answer is not to nerf forgotten bows, but increase damage reduction algorithm Asommers put into PvP when weapon damage was getting too high.

I'm sure bumping up the percentage won't take much effort at all and in turn, we will have a lot of satisfied PvPers.

in turn also lowering damage of talons...? lol

[Zeus]

in turn also lowering damage of talons...? lol

Sure. Talons were never meant to do much damage anyways.

It's time to learn to move on. Things change. The rose wand and PL shield are no longer the kings in twinking they once were. People still moved on, but that time it was only because very very few people had it.

Why're y'all complaining now?

[loliamsocool]

Sure. Talons were never meant to do much damage anyways.

It's time to learn to move on. Things change. The rose wand and PL Shirld are no longer the kings in twinking they once were. People still moved on, but that time it was only because very very few people had it.

Why're y'all complaining now?

The reason why rose wand was so op was simply the proc combined with hell scream. not the damage...also the PL shield extra 17 armor or something...lol.
We are complaining because nothing of this sort has ever been attempted on any level...what im saying is nobody has ever raised 50+ damage on anything. Reason why nobody complained was because you were an all around great guy sometime in 2011 and was probably one of only 20s who used rose wand.
also if you want to make forgotten bows the main weapon, youll probably have to suggest to the devs a forg bow event every year where more "newbies" can get the forg bows they need to pvp. Long as they keep a consistent gameplan with less damage im fine with it.

[CrimsonTider]

you actually did say that you were taught range is king in a post on this thread somewhere or even on the original post. please do not bash me for my reading skills whenever you actually just stated my point in your counter argument "knowing your range".

I was typing up a counter argument for all your points but i pressed some f# button deleting all my words and now i dont have the heart to do it lol today...perhaps tomorrow.
also since i am an addicted level 15 i will tell you right now talon vs snowballs is an absolute unfair comparison to fbows vs. traditional weapons lol, for one,

talons are way better/easier than snowballs simply because of the higher hit% combined with armor, and the way you have to fight with snowballs is much different than talon fights, and requires MUCH more knowledge of skills...in essence a snowball fight is staying JUST outside of your opponents stomp range while waiting for ice to proc.
the only 15 i dread using snowball is/was bous because he actually has the extreme knowledge/luck required to use snowball

also another point at level 20 when snowball came out, was the main level. The reason why talon are better at that level is because the method of fighting then was hell scream first aka called wreck your opponents hit%..
and as im sure youve noticed talons have better hit % than snowballs.

lolty off my soap box and hopefully tomorrow ill try and effectively convey my point in a counter argument on this thread lol

fix: also lol my problem was with you even attempting to include a reaper blade argument in *LEVEL 15* PVP *ON A BEAR*, where melee is completely useless and any amount of damage put on them will have no use whatsoever. lol.

You did not read the thread nor the purpose. I am NOT discussing strategy. I am NOT discussing whether weapons are viable at certain levels. I even stated at the end that I only covered a couple of areas to provide the necessary data for the purpose of the thread. If I had discussed every single weapon at every single "popular" level of PvP, noone would have read it at all.... too long.

The purpose of showing the melee weapons was strictly to show that Forgotten items were NOT the only weapons to get a recent buff.

There are plenty of other threads out there to discuss "strategy" in 10-20 PvP. Please find one of those to make your arguments here as I would like to keep mine on target.

@Parth - Thank you. As I stated above, the evolution of the game seems to not be a totality, just fragmented. Seems like, as with other things, STS had a fresh idea without thinking of the overall effect or changes which may be needed.

[loliamsocool]

and this is where your thread must go wrong then, because if you are to discuss a "debunk" to OP talk, you have to consider all facets of pvp at whatever level we're talking about.

also the reason why i brought up strategy was the same reason you asked the question of why aren't people complaining about melee weapons I.e the reaper. STRATEGY is why people aren't complaining about melee. lol.

also im not sure about my writing skills but im fairly certain i only hit only levels 15 and 20 in my counterargument not every single level which would "make your thread too long" and i never wanted you to assess every weapon, just the ones that made sense at the level that you chose to discuss.

fix: what im tryn to say about why i brought up strategy is that you asked questions and i answered em. lol

[Zeus]

The reason why rose wand was so op was simply the proc combined with hell scream. not the damage...also the PL shield extra 17 armor or something...lol.
We are complaining because nothing of this sort has ever been attempted on any level...what im saying is nobody has ever raised 50+ damage on anything. Reason why nobody complained was because you were an all around great guy sometime in 2011 and was probably one of only 20s who used rose wand.
also if you want to make forgotten bows the main weapon, youll probably have to suggest to the devs a forg bow event every year where more "newbies" can get the forg bows they need to pvp. Long as they keep a consistent gameplan with less damage im fine with it.

I don't necessarily want to keep them, but I'm saying we have to move on with it.

I would however like to see them farmable through perhaps a platinum map? A weapon that outdoes every other weapon from 1-45 should not be discontinued.

[CrimsonTider]

and this is where your thread must go wrong then, because if you are to discuss a "debunk" to OP talk, you have to consider all facets of pvp at whatever level we're talking about.

also the reason why i brought up strategy was the same reason you asked the question of why aren't people complaining about melee weapons I.e the reaper. STRATEGY is why people aren't complaining about melee. lol.

You realize there are other levels which DO use melee weapons, correct? But it is nice to know you made a new forum account just for my thread. Thanks!

[loliamsocool]

You realize there are other levels which DO use melee weapons, correct? But it is nice to know you made a new forum account just for my thread. Thanks!

you realize that i was also mainly talkng about level 15s to 20s and im not sure what making forums accounts has to do with any of our conversation, in fact im not even sure why you would thank me for providing counter arguments to your thread.

EDIT: also i do realize that people use melee weapons...just let me know if many 35 reaper guys can beat a 35 fbow mage consistently...if they can then a chunk of my argument regarding level *35* has been taken away...

if they cant then tell me if a voodoo mage can consistently beat an equally skilled fbow mage and then tell me how the results can help debunk op talk.

[loliamsocool]

I don't necessarily want to keep them, but I'm saying we have to move on with it.

I would however like to see them farmable through perhaps a platinum map? A weapon that outdoes every other weapon from 1-45 should not be discontinued.

platinum map...whatever works for sts lol long as damage gets nerfed

[Zeus]

Food for thought: As long as events keep coming around, to be honest, everybody will have a fair chance in PvP so long as they can afford to buy the weapon (which is pretty moderately priced, especially when comparing them to the old WF pinks everybody rages about).

[Zeus]

platinum map...whatever works for sts lol long as damage gets nerfed

Lots of people would be willing to spend platinum, and it would keep the prices low for those who want to buy them with gold.

I mentioned that as an incentive for STS to turn the idea into a business opportunity.

[loliamsocool]

Lots of people would be willing to spend platinum, and it would keep the prices low for those who want to buy them with gold.

I mentioned that as an incentive for STS to turn the idea into a business opportunity.

perhaps maps payable with gold as well...for example 2 plat per run and...50k per run or something idk. Could be a solution to the inflation problem that i see people talk about whenever i go into townes lol

[Zeus]

perhaps maps payable with gold as well...for example 2 plat per run and...50k per run or something idk. Could be a solution to the inflation problem that i see people talk about whenever i go into townes lol

Dragon is already a solution to that problem.

[loliamsocool]

Dragon is already a solution to that problem.

Doesnt that just transfer the epic amounts of gold to yet another person. Id think that removing inflation in this game would be to completely remove some gold from the system circulation...find another thread to discuss this though, afraid this thread is getting off topic from the original topic of forgotten bow op talk debunking of the sort.

[Caiahar]

Pvped today, and I was kiting with a Halloween chunker, and yet voodoos can auto me. Its weird.