Warriors mana opinions.

[Bless]

Hello,

I would like to address my disapproval on the warrior class. Before yall hate/flame let me tell ya this, Im not talking about lowering warrior damage (Infact make it higher!) or take their invulnerability bubble away. I am stating my experiences in pvp, L16 twink pvp to make it more precise after the update.

I am here to give justified reasons on why the warriors mana capabilities (VB...etc) should be nerfed:

1. The skill vengeful blood is like a mana reflector, it turns the damage into mana. Due to this skill, warriors have ∞ mana. A warrior vs rogue fight in L16 1v1 would last until the rogue has basically emptied its mana tank, then the rogue is a sitting duck because they are not able to heal or kill the opposing party first and shortly the warrior will kill the rogue. Talking about a mage vs warrior is useless because we all know who would win.

2. So bless, what youre saying is that the rogue and mage class' mana runs out, yet the warrior mana just wont run out, thats totally fair isnt it!

3. It could be argued that the warrior has minimal damage therefore it would need a lot of mana to kill a rogue/mage. This is a valid argument but to what extent? I mean COME ON! They can last fights about 15-20minutes long with full mana and by this time a rogue would die because it runs out of mana (even with flapjack or nexus).

4. I dont think there is a possible way for other classes to avoid "mana healing" the warrior because if the rogue/mage dont attack while VB is active, theyll die first.

My suggestion: I just want to say that there should be a limit on VB's mana heals for example: after 250 mana has been given to the warrior, VB gives a mana regen of 5 (not healing mana anymore just a mana regen for about a further 4 seconds - giving 20 more mana).

I find it more fair if all classes can actually lose mana instead of only mages and rogues. I would appreciate sensible/constructive feedback especially from the sts team and other warriors.

~ Lilbless

[Natrich]

Seems complicated to implement. Plus, any base value like 250 mana wouldnt be very practical. It would have to be a % of the warrior's initial mana

[Evilgoat]

Us lvl 26 wars are having tough mana issues after venge nerf... So ur unsatisfied and want further nerf? Give us rougue DMg and take out our mana for exchange then...that'll b fair enough...by da way ur complaining coz u can't beat a war in 16 pvp? Come to lvl 26 and see how wars suck right now..

[Bless]

Seems complicated to implement. Plus, any base value like 250 mana wouldnt be very practical. It would have to be a % of the warrior's initial mana I actually think its possible because the mage shield says the shield wears off if 500 dmg has been absorbed or...


Us lvl 26 wars are having tough mana issues after venge nerf... So ur unsatisfied and want further nerf? Give us rougue DMg and take out our mana for exchange then...that'll b fair enough...by da way ur complaining coz u can't beat a war in 16 pvp? Come to lvl 26 and see how wars suck right now.. Its not like I cant beat a war at 16 but its hard because of their neverending mana. They can spam heal and axe throw and vengeful slash and vengeful blood.

So if the mage class has a heal of DOT which heals 500 hp per tick and lasts 8 ticks, and other classes dont have this would it make it fair? Its hella unfair man. They already have tons of HP AND ARMOR the last thing they need is tons of mana. At level 16, rogues dont do much dmg to a warrior (150 on aim shot) especially since they cant crit cuz of feeble.

Please try to understand - this is especially to the devs. Its not all about endgame. Yall need to test low level pvp and skills. If you guys arent gonna fix this type of stuff or listen to any suggestions by twinks, get rid of twinking. Make the arena accessible for l25 and over.

[Cero]

sorc's dot doesnt heal 500 per tick, must be a typo.
the dot only heals for a total of 10% of sorc HP.

[Cahaun]

I say make the stat points (strength, intelligence, dexterity) the way they used to. Only strength should be giving health, intelligence gives mana, and dexterity the "luck" attributes. This'll balance all the classes a bit more than what we have now.
As for the warriors' mana, they used to be worse so we can manage a nerf. Better yet, let's just kick everything back to where it used to be in the first cap to where the classes were more balanced.

[Syylent]

I am sorry but I look at it a different way.

The Rogues SP, NB and AS are all on 2 second cooldowns meaning it eats mana.

For a warrior SS is 4 seconds, AT is 7 and WM is 10.

If you want a warrior to use mana up then lower those cool downs to 2 seconds. I suspect they will run out of mana. I know most warriors would probably drool at 2 second cool downs. Or.... you could up SP to a 4 second cool down NB to a 7 sec and AS to a 10 second cool down. I will have to say rogues won't lose as much mana then. I doubt rogues would like that.

Rogues just need to manage their manage consumption rather than face roll the keys. Yes I face roll on my rogue.

BTW I have ran outta mana on my warrior many times when not using a mana regen pet (and when I have one), especially when I had SS and CS.

I guess the main thing is warriors do not run outta mana just because of VB it is also because their cool downs are much higher.

[Bless]

sorc's dot doesnt heal 500 per tick, must be a typo.
the dot only heals for a total of 10% of sorc HP. I'm saying what if THEY DID. Example :)

[Natrich]

I am sorry but I look at it a different way.

The Rogues SP, NB and AS are all on 2 second cooldowns meaning it eats mana.

For a warrior SS is 4 seconds, AT is 7 and WM is 10.

If you want a warrior to use mana up then lower those cool downs to 2 seconds. I suspect they will run out of mana. I know most warriors would probably drool at 2 second cool downs. Or.... you could up SP to a 4 second cool down NB to a 7 sec and AS to a 10 second cool down. I will have to say rogues won't lose as much mana then. I doubt rogues would like that.

Rogues just need to manage their manage consumption rather than face roll the keys. Yes I face roll on my rogue.

BTW I have ran outta mana on my warrior many times when not using a mana regen pet (and when I have one), especially when I had SS and CS.

I guess the main thing is warriors do not run outta mana just because of VB it is also because their cool downs are much higher.

I'm drooling from all the common sense in this post. Literally drooling.


Better yet, let's just kick everything back to where it used to be in the first cap to where the classes were more balanced.

Yes, bring back perma-stun!

[wolfkult]

Level 26 versus twink levels is pretty different. I have a warrior at 26, 16, and 10. At 10 I rarely ever die, in the last few days I'm like 500/20 -- it's ridiculous, I only ever die if I'm in a 10-12 bracket with a lot of 12s or when there are more than one gearred to the max rogue. Rogue versus warrior I'll win every time unless they are healpack specced (w. lots in str so have high hp) -- the the 1on1 goes forever. Same for warrior v warrior, with damage reduction change a few weeks ago a warrior cannot kill an equally geared/skilled warrior as you can't get lucky enough to get each other even below 50% anymore.

At 26 it's a helluva lot different. I'm not sure if warriors are scaling differently or not though. At level 10/16 you have a lot of new players with crappy gear. At level 26 you'll have some with crappy gear but no where as crappy as level 10 and no new players at all... But it could be that all the balance analysis is done at cap level and not lower levels and it's just not scaling that great.

[Cero]

sorc's dot doesnt heal 500 per tick, must be a typo.
the dot only heals for a total of 10% of sorc HP. I'm saying what if THEY DID. Example :)


ahh i skip the "if"

[Theholyangel]

VB is the warriors only way of keeping mana, if we didnt have it, we would run out fast. mine has 660 mana and within the use of AT and WB im down to 70ish% already, its hard to maintain mana and we only regen it fast if we are constantly beat on. when fighting rogues, we keep it high because of those aimed shots that take out 40% of our life and the other attacks that take out much of our life... sure we have plenty of life, but we need it or we will die due to the damage reduction... you see how long it takes to kill a rogue, 2k is ave. health of a rogue, and it takes a lot of time just to take that out with all our attacks, plus if they throw down their packs and run around us picking up, itll take even longer. the way to balance pvp is to nerf rogues attacks, because if a rogue can crit 1.8k easily with 1 aimed, that just isnt fair... thats about 48% of my life in one move, a rogue can do 1.8k in one move, it takes me about 10secs of contant attacks to do that. Rogues nerfed damage, mages upped damage, warriors upped damage. simple as that...

[Rollo]

You're talking about adjusting mechanics based on a lvl 16 twink perspective. What you're asking is for devs to go in and balance each level all the way up to current cap, which is a serious waste of resources. Pvp should always be first and foremost balanced around end game, imo.

[TourneAsunder]

You say rogues mana gets drained in a 15-20 min fight....yet in all this time you don't go to a mana pack spawn?

...or someone else doesn't come along?

Twinking lvls are borked all around-you are always going to have some classes skills outbalancing certain lvls...someone will always discover op lvl/class/spec combos. That pretty much is the history OF twinking...

Endgame is the place that everything should line up and scale- twinks can always lvl up to be in this fair endgame bracket.

[Bless]

VB is the warriors only way of keeping mana, if we didnt have it, we would run out fast. mine has 660 mana and within the use of AT and WB im down to 70ish% already, its hard to maintain mana and we only regen it fast if we are constantly beat on. when fighting rogues, we keep it high because of those aimed shots that take out 40% of our life and the other attacks that take out much of our life... sure we have plenty of life, but we need it or we will die due to the damage reduction... you see how long it takes to kill a rogue, 2k is ave. health of a rogue, and it takes a lot of time just to take that out with all our attacks, plus if they throw down their packs and run around us picking up, itll take even longer. the way to balance pvp is to nerf rogues attacks, because if a rogue can crit 1.8k easily with 1 aimed, that just isnt fair... thats about 48% of my life in one move, a rogue can do 1.8k in one move, it takes me about 10secs of contant attacks to do that. Rogues nerfed damage, mages upped damage, warriors upped damage. simple as that...so now youre saying us rogues cant even have our damage? we already have mana problems (minus the cd, we actally run out even if we do one aim every 10 secs)



Twinking lvls are borked all around-you are always going to have some classes skills outbalancing certain lvls...someone will always discover op lvl/class/spec combos. That pretty much is the history OF twinking...that happens in endgame more because the level caps rise.

Endgame is the place that everything should line up and scale- twinks can always lvl up to be in this fair endgame bracket.


You're talking about adjusting mechanics based on a lvl 16 twink perspective. What you're asking is for devs to go in and balance each level all the way up to current cap, which is a serious waste of resources. Pvp should always be first and foremost balanced around end game, imo. well thats why I say get rid of twink levels completely, if devs are not gonna focus on twinking too then ill go to PL, there endgame and twinks are equal. you wouldnt understand....nobody ever would...

replies in bold

[Rollo]

well thats why I say get rid of twink levels completely, if devs are not gonna focus on twinking too then ill go to PL, there endgame and twinks are equal. you wouldnt understand....nobody ever would...

replies in bold

From what I hear, PL has even bigger problems than AL even at cap. To be honest ive never heard of a mmorpg that has balanced pvp for every single level up to cap before. Even big budget games like wow, or gw2. Id rather see the dev team put in new pvp maps and games than have them fine tune twink pvp.

[Bless]

well thats why I say get rid of twink levels completely, if devs are not gonna focus on twinking too then ill go to PL, there endgame and twinks are equal. you wouldnt understand....nobody ever would...

replies in bold

From what I hear, PL has even bigger problems than AL even at cap. To be honest ive never heard of a mmorpg that has balanced pvp for every single level up to cap before. Even big budget games like wow, or gw2. Id rather see the dev team put in new pvp maps and games than have them fine tune twink pvp. it does however twinks aren't always being burnt down. The Older generation (pre forg era) would understand

[Bless]

To conclude,

The replies I got kinda shocked me. However I can enhance my suggestion now from the feedback. Keep my idea from the OP - ya I believe it isn't fair that one class has never ending mana

New suggestion: make warrior damage input slightly higher.

[Syylent]

To conclude,

The replies I got kinda shocked me. However I can enhance my suggestion now from the feedback. Keep my idea from the OP - ya I believe it isn't fair that one class has never ending mana

New suggestion: make warrior damage input slightly higher.


The replies shocked you? I'll scratch my head on that one.

Personally I would like armor to actually work against aimed shot. Make the warriors armor a little tougher and test it.

I don't believe it is fair one class can take 1/3 of a classes health in one shot. I won't even bring in the one shot capability they have with a sorc (sans shield).

Have you really looked at the AS line and thought "why that upgrade is weak"? It is a purely powerful, envious, line.

[Bless]

The replies shocked you? I'll scratch my head on that one.yeah cuz in every mmo pvp ive played, not a single class has neverending mana.

Personally I would like armor to actually work against aimed shot. Make the warriors armor a little tougher and test it.

I don't believe it is fair one class can take 1/3 of a classes health in one shot. I won't even bring in the one shot capability they have with a sorc (sans shield).

Have you really looked at the AS line and thought "why that upgrade is weak"? It is a purely powerful, envious, line. AS? Where did that come from? please talk on topic, were talking about vengeful blood replies in bold

[Syylent]

replies in bold

Not sure how many MMO's you have played but there are quite a few that there is endless mana... The bard class from DAoC (Twisting was an art form in the beginning) the Paladin Class.. The healer line had a mana regen buff that was set it and forget it. Many MMOs have a endurance line for physical attacks and a mana line for magic attacks and buffing abilities.

I could go before that to Asheron's Call. Stam to mana health to mana.

How many MMOs do you want to go through and the time period in playing each? I can go back to the local BBS if ya want that I played over a 2400 baud modem.. =)

Anyway I digress. The whole issue is it is not neverending. I ran out many times last night. Do I run out more than with my Rogue.. No of course not. Then again you dismissed my cool down timers, but whatever. Mana management. Not just facerolling AS, NB, SP.. repeat which you can do what 2 to 3 times in the span of what one warrior WM?

As far being on point. You point #3 in your OP states that "It could be argued that the warrior has minimal damage therefore it would need a lot of mana to kill a rogue/mage. This is a valid argument but to what extent?" I believe that looking at the AS line is very on point about mana usage.

[Rollo]

2400 baud modem.. .

Oh god lol, I honestly don't know how people did anything at all with those, let alone online gaming xD

[Destructible]

My opinion in response to your opinion-ny thread. (:

Warriors VB is good as it is. For me VB lasts for only a battle or less. Usually it runs out before the Rogue is dead, especially heal-packed ones. After that its pretty much up to Shiloh(or Mali. Both are my main ones) to keep me alive. Juggernaut's 'Below-25%-auto-heal" does little for me, especially when a good Rogue can crit me for more than 1500 damage. *Youch*
I do feel that in all respects, lower level PvP is still a pinch unbalanced, with Warriors dominating. However, my twink level (21) is quite balanced for me. Without Shiloh, any 1-1 with a Rogue leaves me biting dust.

Moving on, however, to what i feel is the main aim of STS - team-play. Every class has its own use in team fights, as everyone all too well know. If VB were to be nerfed, Warriors won't be able to push out a second HoR, or even a Juggernaut for that extra thrill of surviving 3 seconds longer than your teamates. This makes us somewhat of a skill-reliant class, which is quite displeasing. With skill reliance naturally comes the need for mana consumption, which leads back to the main object of this thread.

Ending my post, i think that Warriors' VB is quite so-so, not needing many tweaks. However, a better alternative for me would be to slightly increase the Warrior's skill mana cost. A slight adjustment would be sufficient.


it does however twinks aren't always being burnt down. The Older generation (pre forg era) would understand

This is completely true. Forgs have completely destroyed the entirety of twinking.

[Syylent]

Oh god lol, I honestly don't know how people did anything at all with those, let alone online gaming xD

It sure beat my 1200. ha!

[GoodSyntax]

The replies shocked you? I'll scratch my head on that one.

Personally I would like armor to actually work against aimed shot. Make the warriors armor a little tougher and test it.

I don't believe it is fair one class can take 1/3 of a classes health in one shot. I won't even bring in the one shot capability they have with a sorc (sans shield).

Have you really looked at the AS line and thought "why that upgrade is weak"? It is a purely powerful, envious, line.

The armor on Warriors definitely works - at least at end-game. When I come across a top geared warrior, it takes my Rogue's entire mana pool (of 1900 I might add), meaning a dozen different skills and then I run out of mana, the warrior turns around, and one or two hits me.

Then again, there have been warriors that I can take down in just two full skill rotations, so armor clearly has a big impact.

Actually, my biggest gripe on VB is the Area of Effect. I would really like the AoE to be larger than it currently is because, unless my Rogue is in the middle of the fight, I don't get the buff. If I am staying at range and firing off AS and Nox, then I never get the VB effect, which forces me to join the fray. Unfortunately, when I'm in the middle of the fight, I don't get the Dodge buff from Malison, so it becomes the lesser of two bad options.

Perhaps a better option would be for VB to provide an immediate Mana boost, but then have two durations, one for mana, another for HP. The mana one would be on a shorter clock, while the hp one would have a longer timer. This would keep the HP high so tanking is still an option, and between VB + Skyward, there are two ways to minimize mana consumption.

[GoodSyntax]

It sure beat my 1200. ha!

1200 baud, when I was a kid we used smoke signals :-)

[Oraceanid]

VB is the warriors only way of keeping mana, if we didnt have it, we would run out fast. mine has 660 mana and within the use of AT and WB im down to 70ish% already, its hard to maintain mana and we only regen it fast if we are constantly beat on. when fighting rogues, we keep it high because of those aimed shots that take out 40% of our life and the other attacks that take out much of our life... sure we have plenty of life, but we need it or we will die due to the damage reduction... you see how long it takes to kill a rogue, 2k is ave. health of a rogue, and it takes a lot of time just to take that out with all our attacks, plus if they throw down their packs and run around us picking up, itll take even longer. the way to balance pvp is to nerf rogues attacks, because if a rogue can crit 1.8k easily with 1 aimed, that just isnt fair... thats about 48% of my life in one move, a rogue can do 1.8k in one move, it takes me about 10secs of contant attacks to do that. Rogues nerfed damage, mages upped damage, warriors upped damage. simple as that...


Yep. Two shots and you are dead.

[Bless]

VB is the warriors only way of keeping mana, if we didnt have it, we would run out fast. mine has 660 mana and within the use of AT and WB im down to 70ish% already, its hard to maintain mana and we only regen it fast if we are constantly beat on. when fighting rogues, we keep it high because of those aimed shots that take out 40% of our life and the other attacks that take out much of our life... sure we have plenty of life, but we need it or we will die due to the damage reduction... you see how long it takes to kill a rogue, 2k is ave. health of a rogue, and it takes a lot of time just to take that out with all our attacks, plus if they throw down their packs and run around us picking up, itll take even longer. the way to balance pvp is to nerf rogues attacks, because if a rogue can crit 1.8k easily with 1 aimed, that just isnt fair... thats about 48% of my life in one move, a rogue can do 1.8k in one move, it takes me about 10secs of contant attacks to do that. Rogues nerfed damage, mages upped damage, warriors upped damage. simple as that...


Yep. Two shots and you are dead. thats y i said it should restore 250mp and then do regen

[Itoopeo]

This is one reason why i dont play AL anymore. PvP is crap, no targeting system, cant rotate camera, insta deaths, warriors does too low damage, and rogues one shot kill everything, everything is expensive, leveling is boring, ping makes game animations look crap, sometimes skill just disappears, but you lose the mana cost and skill cooldown is long, only FOUR skills, sometimes in PvP warriors can use their swords as snipers and kill you from 1000meters away, cant ROTATE CAMERA!!

[Syylent]

1200 baud, when I was a kid we used smoke signals :-)


walk a mile barefoot to school in the snow? :frog:

[Syylent]

The armor on Warriors definitely works - at least at end-game. When I come across a top geared warrior, it takes my Rogue's entire mana pool (of 1900 I might add), meaning a dozen different skills and then I run out of mana, the warrior turns around, and one or two hits me.

Then again, there have been warriors that I can take down in just two full skill rotations, so armor clearly has a big impact.

Actually, my biggest gripe on VB is the Area of Effect. I would really like the AoE to be larger than it currently is because, unless my Rogue is in the middle of the fight, I don't get the buff. If I am staying at range and firing off AS and Nox, then I never get the VB effect, which forces me to join the fray. Unfortunately, when I'm in the middle of the fight, I don't get the Dodge buff from Malison, so it becomes the lesser of two bad options.

Perhaps a better option would be for VB to provide an immediate Mana boost, but then have two durations, one for mana, another for HP. The mana one would be on a shorter clock, while the hp one would have a longer timer. This would keep the HP high so tanking is still an option, and between VB + Skyward, there are two ways to minimize mana consumption.

Granted I am only 21 warrior but I do have a 25 rogue. 26k to 26 ain't happening. Often I run out of mana even with VB (max 5 points). Most rogues throw down 2 to 3 sets of packs while we fight. Some how they seem to have quite a pit of mana. Maybe it is mana management? (my terminology) Which is a good thing. I don't think anyone should have a huge supply of mana. An infinite supply of mana would just allow people to face roll their keyboard.

The highest I have been hit at 21 in pvp is 1030 by 21 level rogue (equally geared). I won't count 22's and 23s since they can take away half my health. I think that is a different subject of conversation. People disagree with me, but I think levels make a huge difference in PvP. Especially against equally geared opponents.

Skyward would not minimize mana consumption because of its cool down period. People would mash it. When I specd SS and CS both I think 3 second cooldowns I was always out of mana like my rouge. With old VB I never was. With new vb, it wasn;t as bad as my rogue but still ran out. AT and WM with their high cool downs minimize that greatly because I only mash attack and pray alot.

Yes.. I have noticed that the effect seems lower in pvp than pve. I figured it was by design. Typically I charge HoR rush into the middle and out to the rogues in the back with VB going and spinning. I just hope the rogues and mages in the back kill before I die. Depending on levels.... it works.

BTW think I have faced you a few times. Fun fights if I remember correctly.

[Rollo]

walk a mile barefoot to school in the snow? :frog:

Up hill both ways! ;)

[GoodSyntax]

BTW think I have faced you a few times. Fun fights if I remember correctly.

Always fun fights my friend :-)

Rogues, unlike the other classes, can ratchet up their Crit percentage substantially. If all goes well, and I have a few shots to ramp up, I can keep my crit at or near 100% with Ribbit (118% is my max), but mana is a serious issue, so I am heavily reliant on VB, which is why I am usually in the middle of the scrum. LifeGiver is a decent secondary option when a suitably equipped Warrior isn't around. Once I'm out of mana, I might as well just hope for a quick death so I can get back into the mix again.

Good point on the SS cooldown. I forget that Warrior cooldowns are quite a bit longer than Rogues.

Either way, good timing between VB and HoR should be able to keep you well buffed...especially in PvP. Personally, I still think that the combination of HoR, VB, Windmill and Axe Throw are a formidable build. Because the range of AT is so large, I can't just snipe you from a distance. Then, when I decide to duke it out, I'm either hitting a shield, or trying to punch through VBs HP and Mana restoration with a lucky crit. Some times, I try to wait out the VB effect, but AT just reels me back in.

At the end of the day, Warriors are starting to feel the pinch of mana consumption the same way that Rogues always have. Unlike Rogues though, Warriors have many stuns, high armor/hp and shielding that allows them to just tank their way over to a mana pot.

I'm with you though, no class should have an endless supply of mana. Mana-management (as you say) is just as much of a tactical skill as anything else. There are ways of restoring mana, but they come with some risks. There are also ways to conserve mana, but again, it comes with a price - so either you go nuts spamming skills, but put yourself at risk by looking to absorb damage via the VB effect, or you hang back and not spam skills as often, which may anger your team mates. The third option is simply to be aware of where the mana pots are and disengage when you are running on empty.

[GoodSyntax]

Up hill both ways! ;)

I had to tunnel my way through the snow, one mile to school....uphill both ways, with no gloves or shovel.

And...when I was your age, I was lv27

[Syylent]

I had to tunnel my way through the snow, one mile to school....uphill both ways, with no gloves or shovel.

And...when I was your age, I was lv27

You win! :)

My grandfather would tell me that too. ha!

[really]

Drop the warrior mana, the rogue health pack pooping, and the sorc shield.