Solving Ze Bird Problem

[whisperwalk]

In Endmage PVP rooms there is no question that birds are overpowered. Players know this, so most PVPers are birds, whether CTF and DM. Now lets get to the root of the bird infestation:

Evasion: 45% Dodge, 20s buff
With just 9 points, the fragile glass cannon turns into a tank no one can touch. 45% is better than actual tank buffs such as those possessed by bears and rhinos. For example 48 armor in Stoneskin with 32 second cooldown is a joke. No one would choose armor (partial defence) over dodge (total defence). Seeing that yes birds need to survive PVE i understand why devs put it in. However, the implications for PVP are dire....

Foxes, another high dps class, get a very short evade buff lasting only 3 seconds. Foxes are melee while birds are ranged. Birds get to stay out of trouble (because of range) and then they can continue staying out of trouble when surrounded (because of evade). Evasion is far more broken than it looks. With a single button, birds have a dodge bonus exceeding the whole Savage STR set!

No cooldown on casting multiple skills
There is apparently no cooldown in PL for casting multiple skills. This allows a bird to mash buttons and unload his entire arsenal at once. We are not talking about nibbling bites. We are talking about 100-400 high dmg blows coming in all at once. The result is an opponent dead within 0.5 seconds, only slightly higher than the ping rate of servers. It is so fast that you only see the dmg numbers pop up after u are fallen.

Just like a chess game is worthless if one could win AGAINST BEST PLAY in 2 moves, having super short fights make PVP worthless as well. The "one-shot" phenomena is not restricted to birds but extends also to bears and mages, both can kill before anyone so much as blinks. In a game like DOTA, nuking characters have long cooldowns of 1 minute or more. In PL, the "nukes" have 5 second cooldowns.

Long range without penalty
Birds are built to be long range and they do not suffer any penalty for it. For example, in most games, an archer will start to hit 1 dmg once the opponent has closed the gap. Not so for birds. They get to have long range and they function equally well at short range. Also, melee classes do not get any special consideration for being short-ranged. Foxes continue to suck because nearly all bird skills are strictly superior, while bears only have high dmg as long as rage is still active (it has a long cooldown).

Devs throw one or two "range extenders" for melee classes, and consider the problem solved. Not so.

So my suggestion for a bird nerf is very simple. I have 3 points to make:

1. Evasion should be switched with foxes. Foxes get 20 second and birds get 3.
2. Implement delay before skills can be chained.
3. Birds should be near-useless at melee range. Their dmg should at least be halved or minimums.

[Gragorak]

No cooldown on casting multiple skills
There is apparently no cooldown in PL for casting multiple skills. This allows a bird to mash buttons and unload his entire arsenal at once. We are not talking about nibbling bites. We are talking about 100-400 high dmg blows coming in all at once. The result is an opponent dead within 0.5 seconds, only slightly higher than the ping rate of servers. It is so fast that you only see the dmg numbers pop up after u are fallen.
This isn't actually true. It may look like this when playing with phone/tablet, but that's just because it really takes like 0.5 seconds to cast two skills. While playing with chrome you could theoretically use nine skills in 0.1 seconds, but it isn't possible because sts has implemented the cooldown between using two skills.

But yeah, something must be done for birds in end game, and for dodge (=luck factor) in general in all levels.

[CrimsonTider]

Coming from one of the largest advocates for bears, taking away evasion along with having the lowest armor and health pool in game, would equal an instant death. Is 45+ dodge excessive? Yes. But it can be altered rather than just made completely useless.

And Grag is correct, there is a cooldown of .10 seconds per skill. (I believe this is where it stopped after the 100+ changes.)

[Yich]

While playing with chrome you could theoretically use nine skills in 0.1 seconds

My macro could do it faster. .1? That's an insult.

[whisperwalk]

Coming from one of the largest advocates for bears, taking away evasion along with having the lowest armor and health pool in game, would equal an instant death. Is 45+ dodge excessive? Yes. But it can be altered rather than just made completely useless.

And Grag is correct, there is a cooldown of .10 seconds per skill. (I believe this is where it stopped after the 100+ changes.)

Well, I would challenge this. Birds do not have the "lowest HP pool" that distinction goes to rhinos and mages. Yes, rhinos. So what we are experiencing is a "glass cannon" that is really made of bulletproof glass. People who PVP against birds experience their nigh-unkillability while I still do not feel safe at all wearing full STR gears. Because you see, a single bird skill exceeds all four inventory slots.

The only reason that birds end up lower HP than rhinos is that they purposefully neglect everything to get max DEX - if they wanted to, they can actually tank. But even without trying, the dodge will make them come on top. So what happens is a tank tries so very hard to get some measure of defensiveness only to be blown apart in 0.5 seconds. Meanwhile the bird is able to focus on max damage because they "automatically" get good defence on a silver platter. No need to spend any gold, just lvl up. There is a fundamental failure in game mechanics here.

A fox, being melee, would require the long evasion buff so they do not get auto-killed when blinking into a crowd. Instead we have things backwards - the long range guy gets a super long dodge, the short range guy is blown apart after 3s.

Secondly, bird armor is not very much lower than Savage STR set. Assuming they go full flying, we're not looking at more than 30 armor difference.

So at the minimum, birds require a major nerf in their capabilities. No more dodge hax, and be weak at short range.

EDIT - birds actually have the "second highest" HP in the game, losing only to bears, and tied with foxes. True story.

[Gragorak]

Well, I would challenge this. Birds do not have the "lowest HP pool" that distinction goes to rhinos and mages. Yes, rhinos. So what we are experiencing is a "glass cannon" that is really made of bulletproof glass. People who PVP against birds experience their nigh-unkillability while I still do not feel safe at all wearing full STR gears. Because you see, a single bird skill exceeds all four inventory slots.
Rhinos have two high armor buffs, two decent dodge buffs, high heal with h/s buff and redemption. Rhinos can take more dmg than any other class (at least in lvls 20-61, i dont know about lvl 9 skills). So no need to cry about hp. I read your guide, and it says you have no points in armor buff. Rhinos are made to tank, and that's actually pretty hard without using armor buff.


Secondly, bird armor is not very much lower than Savage STR set. Assuming they go full flying, we're not looking at more than 30 armor difference.
Not true. Elite bow set has 153 armor and savage scythe set has 255 armor (+ defensive set bonus, not sure how much it is).

[utotin]

The main thing that will solve this bird problem is to cut their wings off! By the time they are starting to sing " i believe i can fly, i believe i can touch the sky"! Then the problem is solved!!! Lol. Just teasing... Hope all will be well with all of us. ;):rolleyes:

[Chickenrunnn]

The main problem is about vanity/rings overpowered bonuses.

Whoever has 3 vanity ring + dragon crafted is unbeatable, especialy bears who get over 1000hp and more than 100dodge, and birds damaging over 550 damage with blast itself..

AS for mage, they are a bit underpowered, but still can hit more than 600 damage.


StS needs to cut everyone damage by 2, lower hp regen to avoid unfinishable fights, and reduce dodge to avoid fights mostly based on luck.

[Oskitopee]

In this game, why isn't hp scaled with our lvl? Imagine if in WoW, we had the same hp at lvl 1 and at the cap. Makes no sense. I don't mean for just birds, ALL classes should have hp scaled with lvl. Makes no sense otherwise...

[bramer]

1. Evasion should be switched with foxes. Foxes get 20 second and birds get 3.
2. Implement delay before skills can be chained.
3. Birds should be near-useless at melee range. Their dmg should at least be halved or minimums.

If the devs did something like this the Pve community as a whole would be very mad (myself included) because they (devs) would have just effectively made birds worthless. Just my 2 plat, I don't mean to offend anyone or anything.

This is bramer - signing out

[tHelonestud]

Obviously, you have never played against a dexterity bear.

[whisperwalk]

1. Evasion should be switched with foxes. Foxes get 20 second and birds get 3.
2. Implement delay before skills can be chained.
3. Birds should be near-useless at melee range. Their dmg should at least be halved or minimums.

If the devs did something like this the Pve community as a whole would be very mad (myself included) because they (devs) would have just effectively made birds worthless. Just my 2 plat, I don't mean to offend anyone or anything.

This is bramer - signing out

For all overpowered classes (in any game), any nerf is treated as if it is a mortal danger. But assuredly the sky is not falling, birds are already so good that they have a long way to fall. They can survive major nerfs, i tell u, and still maintain a positive kdr.

The fear is what keeps us from much needed balancing. Birds want to remain op and dont want to sacrifice anything. Any nerf is rejected and watered down until it fails balance. Pointing to bears is useless because they are the no. 2 class. Comparing against no. 2 is setting an unrealistic benchmark; it is fairer to compare against the lowest rank classes.

Let me point out that evasion used to be even more op. It was nerfed to what it is and is STILL overpowered. So we can't settle for baby steps. When almost everyone in pvp is a bird, and they all one shot each other, we have a serious problem. A problem that can only be cured by drastic measures.

Birds dont deserve dodge because they are not tanks. So, all the clamour for retaining evasion is simply greed talking.

[bramer]

True, but I was mostly talking about the halving close-range damage part because I play with a dagger most of the time, get my point?

This is bramer - signing out

[OverkillED]

I've got an idea for birds. When an enemy gets close to them, it automatically switches to a weaker dagger (that every bird will have by default - just an idea) and certain skills could not be used. When the distance between the bird and the enemy is 4m+, it automatically switches to a bow and all skills are able to be used. I think this'll make foxes less useless.

I also agree with whisperwalk on switching the bird and fox buffs. Foxes are rendered useless and once their 3 second buff is up, they die. Birds have the advantage of range and foxes do not.

[XghostzX]

STS ruined the system the minute they changed the UI and stats on gear when Humania came out. They're not going to cut anything out - they're going to play it "low" and make the next cap gear even more OP. I wouldn't be surprised if the level 75 gear is more OP than the level 80 gear.

[Caiahar]

How about....making BOTH fox and bird evasion lowered down to 10 sec. If birds evasion was 3 sec, then ppl in PVE wouldn't be happy, like me.

[whisperwalk]

Rhinos are made to tank, and that's actually pretty hard without using armor buff.

I have re-specced my rhino at least 4 times and experienced both armored and un-armored versions. It does not make a difference.

At endgame, bird crits land for 400+ damage, exceeding the entire starting HP of a rhino. And due to skill chaining, the alleged tank will be dead in very few seconds. So, I have to really question the usefulness of Stoneskin. It might help in low level PVP but what's the point of that? The endgame is where it matters.

In any case, Stoneskin is leagues and leagues weaker than Evasion, which has longer duration, shorter cooldown, and better protection. I'm not saying that rhinos should have Evasion; it would be out of flavor. However, 1 dodge is better than 1 armor, a fact completely ignored by devs who made Evasion 45 dodge and Stoneskin 48 armor. The equation is closer to 1 dodge being worth 3 armor, so Stoneskin should be actually 135 armor (it's only active 35% of the time, so it might as well be big, rather than marginal improvement. You can look at the bear's Rage skill as a template). Even reduced to 100 armor, that would be an actual "tank buff". As for the current Stoneskin, I call it weaksauce. And given that the bird is basically a collection of very good skills, and no weaksauce; where is the place for Stoneskin in a Rhino?

In PVE Stoneskin is even worse, because it is only 35% of the time. When it comes to defence, there is no middle ground - either you need the 48 armor to stay alive, or you don't. Since a rhino isn't dying in the 65% of time that Stoneskin is offline, I can only conclude that the 48 armor is unneeded. The Savage set brings mob damage to near minimum even without Daily Blessings. It doesn't even save health pots because Rhino can heal. And any extra armor after the armor cap is useless.

[Edwin Sim]

I think it's the savage set that's way too op with the dodge and armor, my bird loss to a savage bear, why? Because it's too lucked based! The bear has way to much dodge and what about me( pure dex, elite bow set) only 10dodge without buffs, savage has 50+ dodge without buffs. Sts has to balance the sets and return dodge to dex sets.

[whisperwalk]

I think it's the savage set that's way too op with the dodge and armor, my bird loss to a savage bear, why? Because it's too lucked based! The bear has way to much dodge and what about me( pure dex, elite bow set) only 10dodge without buffs, savage has 50+ dodge without buffs. Sts has to balance the sets and return dodge to dex sets.

Wayyy off base. Savage is 28% dodge, not 50, and even the 160 str bonus adds only 4% dodge. Evasion is 45% dodge, doesnt cost 4m, and doesnt occupy 4 inventory slots. Which one is overpowered here?

If you lost to a bear, that's too bad, but plenty of birds can kill bears so turn off the hyperbole. Obviously, a character with above 1k hp and +90 att buff will always give trouble. Doesnt change the fact that birds are overpowered and need a nerf.

[aav5224]

Just level up if he is beating u

[Edwin Sim]

I'm 76-_- it goes back to the rings again..... Gold ring +three piece

[Wendellism]

I think it's the savage set that's way too op with the dodge and armor, my bird loss to a savage bear, why? Because it's too lucked based! The bear has way to much dodge and what about me( pure dex, elite bow set) only 10dodge without buffs, savage has 50+ dodge without buffs. Sts has to balance the sets and return dodge to dex sets.

Ahahaha, that wasn't a bear you got owned with, it was my rhino.

Anyways, birds are still considered imba in pvp due to it's high damage output.

[Oskitopee]

I lost interest in pvp because it is completely luck. I mean, I'm a new player and all but one thing i've seen is that dodge is everything. What's the point of pvp if all it is is a competition based solely on luck? I just don't get it anymore...

[Fao]

This is exactly why I never got into PvP...

[tHelonestud]

With just 9 points, the fragile glass cannon turns into a tank no one can touch. 45% is better than actual tank buffs such as those possessed by [1]bears and [2]rhinos.
[3] Birds should be near-useless at melee range. Their dmg should at least be halved or minimums.
[1] I am not sure where you got your facts but bears gain 48% dodge from buffs. Third grade math maybe... 48 > 45 ... not to mention the bears armour buffs and health pool.
[2] Please never refer to a class with the smallest health pool as a tank again
[3] So with your new range balance rule, let's pair a bird against:
a bear - if beckon lands they do less than 50% normal damage, as well as coming into the range of crushing blow further decreasing their damage.
a fox - when ever the fox charges or pulls successfully, the birds damage is less than halved as well as becoming vulnerable to all of the foxes heavy damaging skills.
a rhino - when a rhino charges the bird loses over half its damage, while being stunned.
It would honestly make much more sense if the bird's damage was decreased at far distances when the opponents can't touch him, once the low armour bird gets in their range that's when damage is needed most.

[Edwin Sim]

Erm? I was owned by isopure

[whisperwalk]

[1] I am not sure where you got your facts but bears gain 48% dodge from buffs. Third grade math maybe... 48 > 45 ... not to mention the bears armour buffs and health pool.
[2] Please never refer to a class with the smallest health pool as a tank again
[3] So with your new range balance rule, let's pair a bird against:
a bear - if beckon lands they do less than 50% normal damage, as well as coming into the range of crushing blow further decreasing their damage.
a fox - when ever the fox charges or pulls successfully, the birds damage is less than halved as well as becoming vulnerable to all of the foxes heavy damaging skills.
a rhino - when a rhino charges the bird loses over half its damage, while being stunned.
It would honestly make much more sense if the bird's damage was decreased at far distances when the opponents can't touch him, once the low armour bird gets in their range that's when damage is needed most.

1) A bear does NOT gain 48% dodge from buffs, they gain 18% from evade and 14% from taunt. Two skills total 32% dodge, and losing to a single bird skill. Your third grade math. Birds have a defensive skill exceeding the skill of actual defensive classes. Is that not overpowered? AND they're not even in the tanking business. Birds are devastating due to their high damage output. Does the game need them to also be untouchable?

2) You can call it whatever you want, but rhinos ARE tanks in PVE due to summon skill, double heal, and high armor. They are not "true" tanks like bears but they mimic the function of a tank. Rhinos can't tank at one-hit-kill bosses or PVP due to damage being absurd high, but they play like tanks everywhere else. Otherwise, how do you explain the rhino's collection of pure defensive skills?

However, it is true that rhinos should get at least 100 more hp to be on par with birds. 400 hp is just devs getting carried away.

3) A bird that deals less damage at long range is a novel idea, but would result in contortions during PVE. Instead of taking down enemies from a distance (like a good ranged player), the bird is forced to go near the mobs (to avoid 50% penalty), and kiting be damned. It just doesn't feel like a bird anymore. As for PVP pairings, a bird has various 12m skills to weaken the enemy to sub-50% health, a knockback skill, and roots. The melee penalty can be sidestepped easily by running 1m out of range. A good bird should never be standing still anyway.

I'm picturing the melee penalty to only apply at dagger range, not the sword range of bears.

[Gragorak]

1) A bear does NOT gain 48% dodge from buffs, they gain 18% from evade and 14% from taunt.
Taunt stacks.

[whisperwalk]

Taunt stacks.

Now you're relying on three (!) bear skills to get a miserly 3% advantage over a single bird skill. Quite a stretch, isn't it? A fair comparison would be one skill vs one skill...which is what I pictured when I said evasion was better than actual tank buffs. Evasion is, as a single skill, better than ANY tank buffs possessed by actual tanks. But activating all tank buffs against one single skill...then pointing out the SUM of EVERYTHING beats Evasion by 3%, therefore Evasion is OK...I don't see your logic.

Bears I know don't even max their taunt.

[bramer]

1) A bear does NOT gain 48% dodge from buffs, they gain 18% from evade and 14% from taunt. Two skills total 32% dodge, and losing to a single bird skill. Your third grade math. Birds have a defensive skill exceeding the skill of actual defensive classes. Is that not overpowered? AND they're not even in the tanking business. Birds are devastating due to their high damage output. Does the game need them to also be untouchable?

2) You can call it whatever you want, but rhinos ARE tanks in PVE due to summon skill, double heal, and high armor. They are not "true" tanks like bears but they mimic the function of a tank. Rhinos can't tank at one-hit-kill bosses or PVP due to damage being absurd high, but they play like tanks everywhere else. Otherwise, how do you explain the rhino's collection of pure defensive skills?

However, it is true that rhinos should get at least 100 more hp to be on par with birds. 400 hp is just devs getting carried away.

3) A bird that deals less damage at long range is a novel idea, but would result in contortions during PVE. Instead of taking down enemies from a distance (like a good ranged player), the bird is forced to go near the mobs (to avoid 50% penalty), and kiting be damned. It just doesn't feel like a bird anymore. As for PVP pairings, a bird has various 12m skills to weaken the enemy to sub-50% health, a knockback skill, and roots. The melee penalty can be sidestepped easily by running 1m out of range. A good bird should never be standing still anyway.

I'm picturing the melee penalty to only apply at dagger range, not the sword range of bears.

:(

This is bramer - signing out

[CrimsonTider]

Bears I know don't even max their taunt.

This made me shed a tear.

[tHelonestud]

1) A bear does NOT gain 48% dodge from buffs, they gain 18% from evade and 14% from taunt. Two skills total 32% dodge, and losing to a single bird skill. Your third grade math. Birds have a defensive skill exceeding the skill of actual defensive classes. Is that not overpowered? AND they're not even in the tanking business. Birds are devastating due to their high damage output. Does the game need them to also be untouchable?
Actually, bears do. Yes, it is two skills, but when you take into account that taunt can be stacked twice, it gives bears a constant 28 dodge buff, not 20 seconds, constant. Then you can add on the bear's much higher armour buff and offensive buff.



2) You can call it whatever you want, but rhinos ARE tanks in PVE due to summon skill, double heal, and high armor. They are not "true" tanks like bears but they mimic the function of a tank. Rhinos can't tank at one-hit-kill bosses or PVP due to damage being absurd high, but they play like tanks everywhere else. Otherwise, how do you explain the rhino's collection of pure defensive skills?
Rhinos have 1 purely defensive skill, stone skin.
The majority of their skills benefit the party they are in:
-Reincarnate: gives minimal buff to entire party in range as well as allowing dead party member to revive near the party.
-Restore: Heals all party member within 8 meters, nice self regen buff, but a party heal in PL is a support skill.
-Brute Force: Minimal party buff of 5 armour, minimal self dodge buff.
-Divine Aura: increases mana regen.
-Summon: A taunt(we will count as half a tank skill), main benefit, however, is an area dodge debuff making pulls much easier for bears.
-Guardian: Negates any negative effects on nearby party members, has decent defensive buff as well.
-Vital Force: Party damage buff along with a self hit buff and minimal critical buff.
After you knock these buffs and party skills out, it's left with 4 short ranged attack skills, two of which seem to be designed for a tank, to use to maintain aggro I guess. The other two are just general aoe damage skills with minor 3 second debuffs.


3) A bird that deals less damage at long range is a novel idea, but would result in contortions during PVE. Instead of taking down enemies from a distance (like a good ranged player), the bird is forced to go near the mobs (to avoid 50% penalty), and kiting be damned. It just doesn't feel like a bird anymore. As for PVP pairings, a bird has various 12m skills to weaken the enemy to sub-50% health, a knockback skill, and roots. The melee penalty can be sidestepped easily by running 1m out of range. A good bird should never be standing still anyway.

I'm picturing the melee penalty to only apply at dagger range, not the sword range of bears.
With a good tank(bear please) in PvE birds do not really need to stay at far ranges, in fact to maximize damage they should be coming into around 8 meter range to land cruel blast, which is the first point where a bear could hit after a missed/dodged beckon or hellscream(rank 9). So 9-12 meter would be the minimized damage zone.
If you want to kill a birds damage at 3 or 4 meters, you better increase hit chance on avian scream and repulse shot.

[CrimsonTider]

Actually, bears do. Yes, it is two skills, but when you take into account that taunt can be stacked twice, it gives bears a constant 28 dodge buff, not 20 seconds, constant. Then you can add on the bear's much higher armour buff and offensive buff.

Worded perfectly.

[Battlegrinder]

I don't know all that much about PvP, but just from what I've seen in PvE, I'm inclined to support Whisperwalk on this one. PvE as any class other than Archer (and maybe Rangers, I haven't seen too many of them at my level) has a bad habit of turning into "ArchersvE, while the other classes try to get in a few kills on the side". My main is a Mage (ie, the class intended to be able wipe out lots of mobs at once), and Archers still out-kill me. If they have Elixirs, its a struggle to even keep up with them, let alone get any kills.

Regarding the Bear Dodge issue, it seems to me that game mechanics outpaced class design. I'm working on leveling up a bear, and so far (level 33) I've found that being able to take hits is working out ok, even without mage/paladin support and with very few points in dodge skills. Even in Mount Fang, my STR mage has been doing well with armor, a few extra hit points, and liberal use of the heal spell. From what I've heard from various forums, the dodge vs armor system falls apart in Blacksmoke, and mobs just do too much damage for tanks to simply soak it up. If that's true, then hopefully the next expansion will either revert to the previous system, or retool Bears and Paladins so they can actually tank effectively.

Finally, whats with the negativity when Whisperwalk mentioned that many players he knows don't put a lot of points into taunt? That seems like a perfectly valid choice, since it frees up skill points for use in other, perhaps more useful skills like crushing blow, beckon, rage, ect.

[tHelonestud]

I don't know all that much about PvP, but just from what I've seen in PvE, I'm inclined to support Whisperwalk on this one. PvE as any class other than Archer (and maybe Rangers, I haven't seen too many of them at my level) has a bad habit of turning into "ArchersvE, while the other classes try to get in a few kills on the side". My main is a Mage (ie, the class intended to be able wipe out lots of mobs at once), and Archers still out-kill me. If they have Elixirs, its a struggle to even keep up with them, let alone get any kills.
Successful PvE is not simply getting more kills. It should be based on clearing levels with your team as fast as you can. The archer is the primary damage class, bears are meant to take damage and keep enemies from dealing damage, mages put out a lot of aoe damage as well as keeping the team alive, rhino and foxes are designed to laugh at for being weak. If you want to talk about soloing, nothing is easier than a bear, largest health pool, armour, damage buff, and dodge at endgame. Not to mention the massive area debuff from hellscream.

[CrimsonTider]

Successful PvE is not simply getting more kills. It should be based on clearing levels with your team as fast as you can. The archer is the primary damage class, bears are meant to take damage and keep enemies from dealing damage, mages put out a lot of aoe damage as well as keeping the team alive, rhino and foxes are designed to laugh at for being weak. If you want to talk about soloing, nothing is easier than a bear, largest health pool, armour, damage buff, and dodge at endgame. Not to mention the massive area debuff from hellscream.

Exactly. When I see new bears with more kills and less deaths than my 2.5 year old bear, I laugh. I have never been caught up in kills as I have always understood my role (which was clouded with the introduction of stationary bosses during Nuri's.): Control the crowd, take damage, and stay ahead of the group. And trust me Battle when I say that as your bear gets into AO3 and beyond, if you can't dodge, you will get stunned so much that your crowd control will be entirely ineffective.

[tHelonestud]

the introduction of stationary bosses during Nuri's.):
so annoying

[Battlegrinder]

Successful PvE is not simply getting more kills. It should be based on clearing levels with your team as fast as you can. The archer is the primary damage class, bears are meant to take damage and keep enemies from dealing damage, mages put out a lot of aoe damage as well as keeping the team alive, rhino and foxes are designed to laugh at for being weak. If you want to talk about soloing, nothing is easier than a bear, largest health pool, armour, damage buff, and dodge at endgame. Not to mention the massive area debuff from hellscream.

I know that PvE ins't only about the kills, and that bears aren't meant for damage dealing, but I'd still like to be able to get some kills during a run instead of having to sit ack and watch archers kill everything. The main problem I have with archers is that do so much single target damage, and deal it out so quickly, that other classes (even ones like Mage which are designed to take down lots of mobs) have trouble getting any kills at all.


Exactly. When I see new bears with more kills and less deaths than my 2.5 year old bear, I laugh. I have never been caught up in kills as I have always understood my role (which was clouded with the introduction of stationary bosses during Nuri's.): Control the crowd, take damage, and stay ahead of the group. And trust me Battle when I say that as your bear gets into AO3 and beyond, if you can't dodge, you will get stunned so much that your crowd control will be entirely ineffective.

I normally don't mind having less kills, but I do mind having only about 1/8 the kills of an Archer at my level. I'm wanting to get the various achievements for PvE kills, but its really hard to do that when archers are running around killing every mob with two or three attacks. I've had to resort to timing my attacks during their skill cooldowns and in between combos, so that I have at least a chance of getting in the fatal blow. It doesn't help that archers always seem to switch over to whatever mob I've been fighting and stealing the kill. I hate it when I finally grind a targets health down to the point where its just about dead, then someone else fires a volley of arrows into it before I can finish it off.

Thanks for the info about AO3. I didn't have much of an issue with stun damage during my first run through, but maybe that's because I was using a Mage instead of one of the STR classes.

[tHelonestud]

I know that PvE ins't only about the kills, and that bears aren't meant for damage dealing, but I'd still like to be able to get some kills during a run instead of having to sit ack and watch archers kill everything. The main problem I have with archers is that do so much single target damage, and deal it out so quickly, that other classes (even ones like Mage which are designed to take down lots of mobs) have trouble getting any kills at all.
Bears shouldn't be "sitting back watching archers kill everything;" they should actively be leading the birds/rest of the party. If you are effectively tanking, you will get some kills.
Another problem could be your build as a bear. I believe you mentioned you were pure strength, in which case, you wouldn't really be doing damage except with 50-51 level range with a rift set or rooter's gear from sewers, or with the massive boost of hit with the blacksmoke 2-handed weapon sets.

[Battlegrinder]

Bears shouldn't be "sitting back watching archers kill everything;" they should actively be leading the birds/rest of the party. If you are effectively tanking, you will get some kills.
Another problem could be your build as a bear. I believe you mentioned you were pure strength, in which case, you wouldn't really be doing damage except with 50-51 level range with a rift set or rooter's gear from sewers, or with the massive boost of hit with the blacksmoke 2-handed weapon sets.

I usually am leading from the front, I meant the "sitting back" comment figuratively. I get a handful of kills, but it heavily depends on how many birds are in the party and how shameless they are about stealing kills (by that I mean sending a volley of arrows into a mob that was only a hit or two from death, not ganging up on one that's still going strong). I am a pure STR build, because I have 2 other characters that are also mostly STR, and this way I can just buy one set of gear and transfer it between the three accounts as needed.

[CrimsonTider]

I usually am leading from the front, I meant the "sitting back" comment figuratively. I get a handful of kills, but it heavily depends on how many birds are in the party and how shameless they are about stealing kills (by that I mean sending a volley of arrows into a mob that was only a hit or two from death, not ganging up on one that's still going strong). I am a pure STR build, because I have 2 other characters that are also mostly STR, and this way I can just buy one set of gear and transfer it between the three accounts as needed.

Just say "no" to pure strength. Yes, it literally makes you a walking tank, but when your hit% is 67, you won't hit Blacksmoke Mountain with a nuke the size of Jupiter. May be one reason you are not seeing your kill count go up (miss miss miss = miss.) Another thing is adding dex will raise damage (as well as hit%) to allow the gain you need. Use just enough strength to equip strength gear and put everything else into dex.

As a pure strength advocate, until bears get a boost in hit%, this is the best build to use.

[whisperwalk]

Actually, bears do. Yes, it is two skills, but when you take into account that taunt can be stacked twice, it gives bears a constant 28 dodge buff, not 20 seconds, constant. Then you can add on the bear's much higher armour buff and offensive buff.



Rhinos have 1 purely defensive skill, stone skin.
The majority of their skills benefit the party they are in:
-Reincarnate: gives minimal buff to entire party in range as well as allowing dead party member to revive near the party.
-Restore: Heals all party member within 8 meters, nice self regen buff, but a party heal in PL is a support skill.
-Brute Force: Minimal party buff of 5 armour, minimal self dodge buff.
-Divine Aura: increases mana regen.
-Summon: A taunt(we will count as half a tank skill), main benefit, however, is an area dodge debuff making pulls much easier for bears.
-Guardian: Negates any negative effects on nearby party members, has decent defensive buff as well.
-Vital Force: Party damage buff along with a self hit buff and minimal critical buff.
After you knock these buffs and party skills out, it's left with 4 short ranged attack skills, two of which seem to be designed for a tank, to use to maintain aggro I guess. The other two are just general aoe damage skills with minor 3 second debuffs.


With a good tank(bear please) in PvE birds do not really need to stay at far ranges, in fact to maximize damage they should be coming into around 8 meter range to land cruel blast, which is the first point where a bear could hit after a missed/dodged beckon or hellscream(rank 9). So 9-12 meter would be the minimized damage zone.
If you want to kill a birds damage at 3 or 4 meters, you better increase hit chance on avian scream and repulse shot.

I dont think you play a rhino, because the 'support' you are talking about is a joke. Jist because something is 'beneficial' doesnt make it a support skill. Given that the 'benefits' are so small, and DEFENSIVE in nature, it is correct to call them pure defensive skills'

Guardian is a 40 armor, 10 dodge TANKING buff with a redundant (see restore) dispel effect on party. Just because it has this extremely situational effect, doesnt suddenly make it a support skill. Guardian has a very long cooldown making it absent when u need it for dispelling.

Brute force with 5 armor "support" - HAHA. Beneficial to party my ***. It is a TANKING skill - for 10 dodge.

Any rhino that puts points into divine aura should be SHOT. So, just forget about it.

Rhino has multiple layers of tanking skills, such as stoneskin, guardian, and brute force. Heal and redemption let them stay alive so that they can tank longer. (Not tank skills, but helpful for tanking).

On balance, Rhino has 5 tank skills (brute force, guardian, stoneskin, summon), 3 support skills (restore, reincarnate, vital force), and 4 attack skills (charge, rhino might, redemption, holy tempest). Therefore, it is more of a tank than a supporter.

And no, i dont think birds need more dmg anywhere bcos they are already landing 1-sec kills. We're trying to nerf birds, after all, and the whole point of a nerf is to make them weaker, not redistribute advantages from one area into another. Its a feature not a bug.

Your whole thesis that nerfs would make birds completely unplayable is based on exageration. Birds will still be very good at pvp, i tell u.

[tHelonestud]

I dont think you play a rhino, because the 'support' you are talking about is a joke.
Any skill with an effect on your team is, whether you like it or not, the definition of a support skill. Now for these tanking skills...
sure, stone skin increases armor
oh wait blessing of vitality increases armour more; mages must be real tanks
guardian does add some more defense...for 8 seconds. I have much better ways to spend skill points.
so brute force is a worthless party buff. I will actually agree with you on this, and it's a reasonable self buff since it does not cancel out vital force, which is much more beneficial to you and your party.
That puts the rhino at 5 party/support skills, which is more than mages.

We're trying to nerf birds, after all, and the whole point of a nerf is to make them weaker, not redistribute advantages from one area into another.
you are the only one saying they need nerfed. Bears and strength mages are just as overpowered because the real problem is not with any class, it is the ridiculously buffed dodge stat.


Its a feature not a bug.
No idea what feature you are talking about. Nerfing? I am not sure that is considered a feature in any way. Really confused on this statement.


Your whole thesis that nerfs would make birds completely unplayable is based on exageration. Birds will still be very good at pvp, i tell u.
Please quote me ever saying this.

[Gragorak]

On balance, Rhino has 5 tank skills (brute force, guardian, stoneskin, summon), 3 support skills (restore, reincarnate, vital force), and 4 attack skills (charge, rhino might, redemption, holy tempest). Therefore, it is more of a tank than a supporter.
Conclusion = rhino is supportive tank.


Your whole thesis that nerfs would make birds completely unplayable is based on exageration. Birds will still be very good at pvp, i tell u.
Birds don't need to be nerfed, they aren't really that OP. What makes them OP in end game is a) lvl 9 skills, b) elite bow, c) unbalanced game mechanics. In lower levels (I'm talking about lvls 22-61 now) they are far from being OP. If birds were nerfed, that would just make mages even more OP in lower levels.


so brute force is a -- terrible self buff since it cancels out vital force
This is actually false information.

[CrimsonTider]

Conclusion = rhino is supportive tank.


Birds don't need to be nerfed, they aren't really that OP. What makes them OP in end game is a) lvl 9 skills, b) elite bow, c) unbalanced game mechanics. In lower levels (I'm talking about lvls 22-61 now) they are far from being OP. If birds were nerfed, that would just make mages even more OP in lower levels.


This is actually false information.

Truth.

[tHelonestud]

This is actually false information.
You are correct, that's what I get for assuming Spacetime has accurate skill descriptions
Speaking of those skills, I'm fairly certain the armour on brute force should rank up with the skill.

[whisperwalk]

I don't see why lower lvls (20-61) are important, since the endgame is Lvl 76. But suppose we take away the bow and nerf bird's Lvl 9 skills, would that end the bird infestation?

As for Brute Force, it should be 40 armor not 5. And Stoneskin should be 120 armor not 48. That would bump armor to +200 which seems about right for surviving the 1-sec combos everyone else is getting.

[whisperwalk]

Any skill with an effect on your team is, whether you like it or not, the definition of a support skill. Now for these tanking skills...
sure, stone skin increases armor
oh wait blessing of vitality increases armour more; mages must be real tanks
guardian does add some more defense...for 8 seconds. I have much better ways to spend skill points.
so brute force is a worthless party buff. I will actually agree with you on this, and it's also a terrible self buff since it cancels out vital force, which is much more beneficial to you and your party.
That puts the rhino at 5 party/support skills, which is more than mages.



I think you just let slip how poor Guardian is as a skill, compared to the nerf-worthy bird Evasion. (And no, there are no 'better ways' to spend those skill points...you'll just end up with 9 unused skill points) So pls tell me once again that birds are "fair and balanced".

How does a bird, which is a damage character, deserve a defence skill stronger than what actual defensive characters get? How does a bird justify such efficient skill point distribution? A fox, for the same 9 points, gets a buff 6 times shorter. A rhino, for 9 points, gets a worse buff 2-3 times shorter. A bear, for 9 points, gets only half the buff and must continually spam the taunt.

Meanwhile a bird, with these 9 points, has finished their "defensive portion" and can put everything else in high damage skills and strong debuffs which they will now use to murder everyone in 1 second.

[tHelonestud]

I think you just let slip how poor Guardian is as a skill, compared to the nerf-worthy bird Evasion. (And no, there are no 'better ways' to spend those skill points...you'll just end up with 9 unused skill points) So pls tell me once again that birds are "fair and balanced".
I didn't 'let slip', I have stated numerous time all over the forums the rhinos are underpowered.
Remind me when I told you the first time, please.
So far you have only proved that birds are more powerful than rhinos and foxes, which I would agree with. They are very underpowered.
When spacetime announced two new classes I knew they would be either quite underpowered or very overpowered.
If you want to talk about how overpowered birds are, please compare them to class that has existed for more than 6 months and has already has its skills tweaked numerous times.


A bear, for 9 points, gets only half the buff and must continually spam the taunt.
half the dodge for an infinitely longer time
that seems much better to me

[Gragorak]

I don't see why lower lvls (20-61) are important, since the endgame is Lvl 76. But suppose we take away the bow and nerf bird's Lvl 9 skills, would that end the bird infestation?
Ever heard of twinking? 90% of pvp happens in other levels than end game. [I know, most of the most skilled players play end game pvp]


But suppose we take away the bow and nerf bird's Lvl 9 skills, would that end the bird infestation?
Reducing skill lvls back to 6 & nerfin' ridiculous elite bow is a good start. Also rebalancing the basic game mechanics (and thus reducing the impact of dodge and luck) would be necessary.

[tHelonestud]

elite bow is really not that bad, it's primarily because the armour has been increasing at far too slow a rate compared to damage. The whole game is now debuffs of hit% and buffs of dodge. This results in damage being all or nothing hit mean they deal no damage, dodge means you take no damage. Obviously dodge buffs need rolled back a lot and not just buffs, dodge stats on gear as well. Also though these 60% hit chance debuffs, cut them down to 20% or so and add a 40% critical chance debuff. Damage would become more reasonable making for longer, more-skill-requiring fights.

The root of your bird 'problem' is this dodge. They should just until they can fix everything, cut the buffs out of the game, and boost base armour by about 20

[Wendellism]

Gonna have to agree with Thelonestud here.

PvP in itself is unbalanced due to dodge based sets. Ever saw a bear with 90+ dodge when fully buffed? It goes to show that should STS continue raising dodge by the next expansion, I'm quite positive bears will be invulnerable for the entire duration of Evasion(unless the developers proves that dodge cap is not at 100%).

Because of dodge, PvP has turned from a game of wits into...... a game of luck. It's either you dodge more than the enemy to kill him; or the opposite. There were rarely anybody I have seen so far that could be considered actual veterans in PvP. No, not at all.

[whisperwalk]

elite bow is really not that bad, it's primarily because the armour has been increasing at far too slow a rate compared to damage. The whole game is now debuffs of hit% and buffs of dodge. This results in damage being all or nothing hit mean they deal no damage, dodge means you take no damage. Obviously dodge buffs need rolled back a lot and not just buffs, dodge stats on gear as well. Also though these 60% hit chance debuffs, cut them down to 20% or so and add a 40% critical chance debuff. Damage would become more reasonable making for longer, more-skill-requiring fights.

The root of your bird 'problem' is this dodge. They should just until they can fix everything, cut the buffs out of the game, and boost base armour by about 20

This is all hypothetical because STS will never do anything that drastic. Rebalancing everything....they might as well create a new game. Oh wait, they already have.

Modestly, bird dodge should be swapped with fox dodge, and we can drop my other two suggestions.

[Wendellism]

This is all hypothetical because STS will never do anything that drastic. Rebalancing everything....they might as well create a new game. Oh wait, they already have.

Modestly, bird dodge should be swapped with fox dodge, and we can drop my other two suggestions.

If that was done, Birds would be the next bunch of players currently demanding a buff.

I'm very sure that had STS did proper planning of those statistics we all toy about whist twinking, nobody would have any complaints save for a few; after all, nobody can stop conflicts.

[Battlegrinder]

This is all hypothetical because STS will never do anything that drastic. Rebalancing everything....they might as well create a new game. Oh wait, they already have.

STS has been pretty good with maintaining game balance. For example, in SL, the Crusade expansion scaled back Commando dodge significantly, and the new weapons from the expansion pushed players to start using class weapons instead of the pistol+shield combo that had been dominating the game.

The problem is, STS tends to re-balance at the launch of the expansion only, and doesn't tinker around with stuff in between caps. They also tend to mostly change things indirectly, by altering the stats given by gear and that kinda thing. I don't know if they've ever done something with the base mechanics (aside from the GCD and other universal changes), or if such a change is warranted, since altering the equipment stats might be able to resolve the situation on its on.

[tHelonestud]

Gonna have to agree with Thelonestud here.

PvP in itself is unbalanced due to dodge based sets. Ever saw a bear with 90+ dodge when fully buffed? It goes to show that should STS continue raising dodge by the next expansion, I'm quite positive bears will be invulnerable for the entire duration of Evasion(unless the developers proves that dodge cap is not at 100%).

Because of dodge, PvP has turned from a game of wits into...... a game of luck. It's either you dodge more than the enemy to kill him; or the opposite. There were rarely anybody I have seen so far that could be considered actual veterans in PvP. No, not at all.
At 100% dodge you actually don't dodge everything; I am not positive on the other factors however.

[joshtheboss]

IMO the real problem with PvP is that everyone has so little HP especially when compared to the damage. For example a pure int mage at 76 only has around 440 HP buffed while for a bird its around 550. But the damage has been increased exponentially so you die very quickly, and this is why dodge is so determining in PvP because when one shot can kill you have to hope the right skills hit thus dodge is a very large factor in PvP.

[tHelonestud]

Everytime you level there should be a like 5 health 1 armour increase in your base stats

[whisperwalk]

IMO the real problem with PvP is that everyone has so little HP especially when compared to the damage. For example a pure int mage at 76 only has around 440 HP buffed while for a bird its around 550. But the damage has been increased exponentially so you die very quickly, and this is why dodge is so determining in PvP because when one shot can kill you have to hope the right skills hit thus dodge is a very large factor in PvP.

Pocket Legends seems to be going for "ultra realism" where a soldier can gain skills, but not exceed natural "species abilities". Therefore, a fresh recruit has the same base hit points as a capped veteran.

Nothing wrong with that approach, except that as levels increase, developers fall into a trap of "upping the difficulty" by only adding monster hp and damage (I'm looking at you, Blacksmoke Mountain). So player damage goes up, too, to deal with the enhanced monsters. Then players carryover these high-dmg moves to PVP to discover everyone dying in a few hits, leading to a "dodge or die" situation...

Put simply, the PVE arms race has ruined PVP.

[Deathofan]

Rhinos have two high armor buffs, two decent dodge buffs, high heal with h/s buff and redemption. Rhinos can take more dmg than any other class (at least in lvls 20-61, i dont know about lvl 9 skills). So no need to cry about hp. I read your guide, and it says you have no points in armor buff. Rhinos are made to tank, and that's actually pretty hard without using armor buff.


Not true. Elite bow set has 153 armor and savage scythe set has 255 armor (+ defensive set bonus, not sure how much it is).

?? 210 elite bow set, 300 scythe set.

[Gragorak]

?? 210 elite bow set, 300 scythe set.
Maybe i mixed uncrafted and crafted sets or something... Gotta check that.

[Deathofan]

And guess a pure int fiery scepter/eye mage has 220 armor, 10 more than a 2h (phoenix) bird. Quick question, I saw pimphero's (bitslap) wearing a green armor, obviously Flying (uncrafted swift) armor, while wearing a phoenix bow and I saw he had those flames on top of his head, so does uncrafted armor and helm make a set with the corresponding elite weapon? If so, it would be nice to know the set bonus. Sorry for the derailment.

[GELLIO77]

Everytime you level there should be a like 5 health 1 armour increase in your base stats

i suggested something like this a few caps ago, still has never been implemented

@whisper

Birds need a 20 sec buff, you think its possible for a bird to kill a bear in 3 seconds? think again

[tHelonestud]

I suggested something like this a few caps ago, still has never been implemented
Great minds think alike.

[whisperwalk]

i suggested something like this a few caps ago, still has never been implemented

@whisper

Birds need a 20 sec buff, you think its possible for a bird to kill a bear in 3 seconds? think again

Then why do foxes have 3 seconds only?

And why, in the first place, is it so important for birds to kill bears? Is it like a birthright or something?

[tHelonestud]

Then why do foxes have 3 seconds only?
They are unbalanced and underpowered.

And why, in the first place, is it so important for birds to kill bears? Is it like a birthright or something?
Each class has a weakness to another class
Generally:
Mage>Bird>Bear>Mage
Obviously due to the endgame imbalance, dodge is now the primary factor.
Bears' extremely high damage would totally destroy birds with such a short buff. I mean beckon + auto is almost a guaranteed kill if it hits.
Once they cut all the dodge then you can start complaining about individual classes.

[whisperwalk]

I don't see how a bird loses to a mage. A mage dies in 3 hits!

Anyway, that food chain is out of date because it excludes the two new classes. You need to adjust to the new reality, and not keep thinking in terms of bears bears bears bears bears bears.

[Hahahahabirdy]

I don't see how a bird loses to a mage. A mage dies in 3 hits!

Anyway, that food chain is out of date because it excludes the two new classes. You need to adjust to the new reality, and not keep thinking in terms of bears bears bears bears bears bears.
mage>bird>bear>mage
fox>bird
mage/bear>>>>>fox
rhino=fox
bird/bear/mage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rhino

There ya go

[dudetus]

How did I miss this flaming?

New classes are poopoo in viability.

[whisperwalk]

mage>bird>bear>mage
fox>bird
mage/bear>>>>>fox
rhino=fox
bird/bear/mage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rhino

There ya go

U got it mixed up. No way that fox is better than bird, fox is inferior in every respect. And mages dont dominate birds either.

Right now the food chain is birds > all. Which is why birds need fixing.

[Waug]

Interesting discussion going on, I don't know how I missed. Before I read the whole discussion...

Whatever I read, was nearly extragation. Birds always have been underpower, this cap is a prominent phase where, birds are not underpowered, it's just the overall unbalance that looking like birds got the edge.

Guess what a non elite open equipped, one handed weapon str mage do more damage than a birds, let's say even it's equal, it's total unjustified and you say mages are underpowered compared to birds?

If bird would do that? First no elite bow, then semi-str, then one handed weapon, it would take down to ground level.

Anyone agree with this that birds needs most practice to be successfull in pvp, it's really fragile, str meant to tank, dex meant to do the highest damage, but look at the str bears and mages, instead of being tankers and using 1h weapon they are doing immense damage, that's unbalance!!! needed to be fixed.

Any 2h weapon should be way much powerfull overall (including skill damage) than 1h to compensate the shield that can't be used with two handed weapon.

As techno suggested in my thread that they're not gonna take the risk of experiment on bigger nob of the game, so simply the dodge should be nerfed, and armor should be more heavy to factor in the extra damage that causing one/ two hit killing.

[whisperwalk]

Ya well, I didnt proposed to take away the elite bow. You can keep it.

Secondly, no one asked a bird to equip one handed weapon either, or put points into str. In fact, if u put points into str, i dont think u can equip the elite bow. It's counter to the concept of bird.

Thirdly, almost every bird vs mage fight i witnessed has shown a dead mage. I only seen a few mages prevail...and most of the time birds are even "rushing" and "spawning" mages. Basically a bird can break mana shield, and after that byeeeeeeee mage. So how on earth does a mage dominate a bird? I might also add that a bird has longer range than mage.

Maybe every single mage I have seen is a noob, but I don't think so.

Fourth, I have no idea what u mean by bird skill. Most fights vs a bird end before 5s, so it doesnt look like a lot of skill is involved. Pressing the right set of buttons? Kiting is a skill? Pls note that I am talking about endgame and I can't give a damn what happens before that.

Fifth, if u walk into the mage forum, they admit to losing to birds also.

[Hahahahabirdy]

U got it mixed up. No way that fox is better than bird, fox is inferior in every respect. And mages dont dominate birds either.

Right now the food chain is birds > all. Which is why birds need fixing.

Sorry, I meant for levels 1-70 (70 levels), this is the case. For levels 71-76 (6 levels), your statement holds true.

[Waug]

Ya well, I didnt proposed to take away the elite bow. You can keep it.

Secondly, no one asked a bird to equip one handed weapon either, or put points into str. In fact, if u put points into str, i dont think u can equip the elite bow. It's counter to the concept of bird.

Thirdly, almost every bird vs mage fight i witnessed has shown a dead mage. I only seen a few mages prevail...and most of the time birds are even "rushing" and "spawning" mages. Basically a bird can break mana shield, and after that byeeeeeeee mage. So how on earth does a mage dominate a bird? I might also add that a bird has longer range than mage.

Maybe every single mage I have seen is a noob, but I don't think so.

Fourth, I have no idea what u mean by bird skill. Most fights vs a bird end before 5s, so it doesnt look like a lot of skill is involved. Pressing the right set of buttons? Kiting is a skill? Pls note that I am talking about endgame and I can't give a damn what happens before that.

Fifth, if u walk into the mage forum, they admit to losing to birds also.


'no one asked birds to use a bow'- now this is where you got pointless, and also to an extent you agree that bird's are fragile. Anyway.

You missed my point, i.e
Birds are not op, but mages are overall. Yes it's true, I gave an example that even going with low damaging gear and build, i.e pally, they're doing immense damage compare to any other class.

The point you missed is that, one /two hit killing that's going on current endgame atm, resulting birds getting the advantage over int mages, if mages could survive very first few hits from bird, they could heal and get the full hp again as they used to do it from earlier caps. If devs make the game more balance in term of ' no 1-2 hit killing', mages would be overpowered again as usual. Implying nothing wrong with birds neither birds need to be nerfed and justifying my point that mages are op actually.

As far as birds skills are concern, I talked about it overall including earlier caps to set an example, the motivation was, birds always needed a little bit boost from devs.

[tHelonestud]

U got it mixed up. No way that fox is better than bird, fox is inferior in every respect. And mages dont dominate birds either.

Right now the food chain is birds > all. Which is why birds need fixing.
no food chain is
dodge > all
I have played as a dexterity bear. I could kill a bird with two auto attacks no skills hitting them. As a bird versus a strength mage, I have seen mages dodge blind root blast all in a row and use fire and drain and kill. Sometimes the bird will dodge, sometimes it won't. You can load up with angel gear and buff for 80% dodge, it all come down to luck, they could still land their first two skills and you die.

[bramer]

no food chain is
dodge > all
I have played as a dexterity bear. I could kill a bird with two auto attacks no skills hitting them. As a bird versus a strength mage, I have seen mages dodge blind root blast all in a row and use fire and drain and kill. Sometimes the bird will dodge, sometimes it won't. You can load up with angel gear and buff for 80% dodge, it all come down to luck, they could still land their first two skills and you die.

So true...

This is bramer - signing out

[Gragorak]

Kiting is a skill?
Are you saying that kiting doesn't take skill?? Lololololol. If we don't take rhinos into account, all classes have 12m skills. So basically, successful kiting requires really good knowledge about ranges.