Decline in quality of PvP

[KingFu]

I know I'm not alone when I say this, but PvP has become a wasteland. I'm not sure if I posting this thread simply to rant or not, but I'm tired of not saying anything, even if the devs refuse to listen. They've said before that AL is their largest game, thus it deserves the most attention, but neglecting your other customers, especially your oldest customers, isn't the way to do that.

Skills and sets need rebalance. Simple as that. This actually happened in the past at level 45 cap. Bird's skills became so overpowered that they would one shot most things, bears dodge would be boarder line 100%, mages would only need one skill to nuke when buffed. However, it's worse this time around with the larger population of players. PvP has become something anyone with a set can dominate at. Bear vs bear is 100% luck, bird vs bird is whoever hits blast, it gets to the point where someone that's been a great PvPer for years can lose to a random new gen with a Phoenix bow and max blast. Thus, the ego develops in random players, whom at 56 cap wouldn't be able to kill a thing. Overall, the PvP community has gone to the dogs.

Which leads to the answer: rebalance. I've said this numerous times, but the devs need to tone down on luck based stats. Bears right now can get 94 dodge buffed, which is ludicrous. What it comes down to for each class should be armor, damage, M/s, and H/s. Bears, rather than relying on 94 dodge, should have substantially lower damage, very little dodge, high armor, health pool, and high H/s. Mages should be less damage and crit based, and potentially stronger buffs and heals to increase survivability without making them tanking machines, and lastly, birds should be the balance between health and mana, and focus primarily on DPS (as opposed to 500 blast skill damage). People say fox and rhino are underpowered, but I see it as the other classes being overpowered. They did pretty well with them, giving them advantages and disadvantages to balance out, meanwhile all the other classes need to do is land a skill on their opponent. Fights should last longer than firing off 1-2 skills, which I'm not exaggerating with.

So, to rebalance, tone down not only the gear, but the buffs and skills especially. Bring str gear back to fort days, high H/s and armor, and let the set bonus deliver some oh-so important health pool. Then take the skills into consideration. Do bears really need 2 dodge buffs, one of which that stacks? Do bears really need crit and damage that's so substantially high, that 2 skills can take out an entire team? Every class is so ridiculously overpowered that balance is absolutely out the window. People often complain about Mage being underpowered, but in my opinion, Mage is potentially the worst. Every skill, when it breaks past the 90 some dodge and lands, one shots everything around with 700 crit. What happened to actually needing skills other than drain and fire? Instead, take it back to enchanted. The skill damage was still considerably fair, but not as outrageous as it is now. Possibly lower drain's damage and range, and have Mage focus more on AoE damage like it was intended to. No more 100%+ crit. Allow the set bonus to increase mana pool, and possibly heal strength.

And lastly, getting it's own paragraph, is bird. No doubt birds are insane. In 5v5 CTF, what it comes down to is what team has more birds. Simple answer is DPS, with it's original roots. Bows should give considerably more DPS, and not nearly as much skill damage. Lower all the damage done with arrows, by a lot. If your concerned with it getting underpowered, it still has it's -hit% debuff from blind, giving it enough time to stay alive and have it's DPS take effect without needing +45 dodge. Have auto attack play a larger role, have roots be more vital so they have to hold their target down to chip away at their health. Evade should also play a more interesting role, allow it to give an armor boost, possibly even +H/s and/or health pool, something to make it different. As for the gear, quit adding so much dang hit% to it. You don't need 200 some hit%, Focus and the hit delivering from the dex attributes alone are more than enough. Rather, why not have a stat on it that contributes strictly to DPS? It doesn't effect skill damage by making blast deal 500 damage, it simply issues a higher DPS.

I realize these may not be too realistic, but the classes haven't changed much in the 3+ years this game has been around. There's been rebalances before, and now is time for another. Here's the thing, do it right this time and you won't need to come back in a few months/years to do it again. People can wait for a new campaign, I personally will be more than patient if it means the mechanics of the game are going to improve. Again, I get that AL is STS' largest title and that's where the most attention should be directed, but investing so much attention into that game to simply have your other's get fed to the dogs (in which you've invested a lot of time and money into, and in this case, is the reason for where you are now) is the worst plan possible.

Tl;dr: STS, please wake up and acknowledge your original title. Take the classes back to where they were meant to be, bird for DPS, Mage for support/AoE damage, and bear for tanking.

[XghostzX]

Wise words, David! Very well stated.

I hate to break it to you, but what's the point, now? The devs have seen so many 'honorable' members making threads on attempt at trying to change PvP. They just don't listen, and haven't even ONCE acknowledged the issue. I'm surprised they still moderate these forums, and haven't just found player-moderators because they're so focused on AL.

What my new motive has been: Just enjoy the PvP now, because STS will not be fixing it. I have adapted to using my Mage for pure support, because if I try to 1v1 a bear or bird, I have a 1 in 10 chance. I'm all about CTF/teamwork at the moment, but never even bother going into forest fight games. If they cared about PL as much as they used to, they would've made these PvP changes already.

I suppose everything counts, however. Again, well said. Hopefully this will be taken into account.

[KingFu]

Wise words, David! Very well stated.

I hate to break it to you, but what's the point, now? The devs have seen so many 'honorable' members making threads on attempt at trying to change PvP. They just don't listen, and haven't even ONCE acknowledged the issue. I'm surprised they still moderate these forums, and haven't just found player-moderators because they're so focused on AL.

Figured silence doesn't do anything. At the very least, I got to rant to a degree about all the new players thinking they're pro because they have a crafted set.


What my new motive has been: Just enjoy the PvP now, because STS will not be fixing it. I have adapted to using my Mage for pure support, because if I try to 1v1 a bear or bird, I have a 1 in 10 chance. I'm all about CTF/teamwork at the moment, but never even bother going into forest fight games. If they cared about PL as much as they used to, they would've made these PvP changes already.

I typically stick with CTF as well. However, I see CTF getting just as bad as PvP is if the decline continues. It will simply become the snowball effect with things. You've been around since the brink of PL with me, you know how it was at 45 cap, and I'd say this cap is very very similar to it. I figure they'll feel some obligation to change something at some point, because from where it is now, it won't be long before a cap comes along with gear and skills that just entirely destroys the game from all aspects.

[cookiez]

Good read! Very true, I don't endgame cause birds 1shot people and Dodge everything.

My solutions: (some already mentioned above)
Wayyyy more health! Less Dodge! Less crit! Less dps.

Easy fix sts! common!!

[NotYoCookiez]

This is endgame right? Well like ghost said they haven't done anything about it and plus new cap should be coming in June (according to previous cap trends, it's highly likely or July latest) I think it's too late for a change.

[MightyMicah]

Contrary to what most believe, I think the devs are listening to every single thing we say just about. This was a great post, MysticalDream, and I'm glad that you posted it. I'm sure the devs will use this at some point, simply because you're an old member of this forum and you've seen a lot and know a lot about Pocket Legends. The devs don't listen to just any random guy on the forum complaining about stuff in game. When they see consistency in complaints even from guys like you, they realize there is legitimately something wrong.

The devs have stated many times the way they view things. "This is a business." How many times have we heard that before? Any successful business will invest in the things that make it good profit. Pocket Legends once made STS big profit but now Arcane Legends is making them the big profit. It would be very foolish for them to keep investing in a game that is making them little profit.

It is clear that they do care about their other games as evidenced by the ads. Have you noticed that when you hop on Pocket Legends they advertise Star Legends, Dark Legends, and Arcane Legends? I've noticed that each of their games advertise their other games. What I'm getting at is that I feel the devs do, in fact, care about this game but their master plan for fixing it is to draw people in from other games. Once they get a good income going, they'll be able to start putting to action all the stuff we have been complaining about.

Anyways, just felt I should share that considering most people seem to have lost hope. I really don't think STS is done with this game, or Star Legends or Dark Legends. I just think they can't do what they would like to at the moment because, simply put, it's just not worth their time and effort.

[Caiahar]

You know...now that I really think about it...
The ONLY reason they get so much money from AL is...:
Those locked.crate thingies. They offer chance at verrrrryyyy rare item, and also give plat users an advantage cuz each locked crate costs 15 plat.
Ppl buy tonso plat and Continuosly open these nub crates.
What about PL? The oldies.are here. Some of em just go to AL.
Pl isnt plat based, and just yesterday I saw sooo many games at Mega Maze mash with 70+ in it.
That probably means ppl buy tonsa plat, buy week double XP, buy thrashers, buy XP amywhere.
So basically, sts is recieving money from a game thats being neglectex? That's...kinda sad.
And devs really should open up and at least say something about these. Normal ppl are already complaining, but the oldies and founders of PL also?
These ppl have been with sts for a long time, and sts shouldnt just neglect ppl who have been with them for 1/2 years...

[BlueSkied]

^ As well as plat for character slots, mandatory for twinking. Then the vanity items and rings for said multiple twinks. Then the plat to form guilds. It all adds up, and many people do this, I'm sure. I have like 20something characters. It should all be considered.

[Waug]

I agree at this point the three main classes are doing more than what they meant to do in few ways.

But pallies are op-est class at this moment, and whoever says birds rules ctf matches, no actually presence of pallies determine which team is gonna win the ctf match.

PVP balance is in it's highest critical point when, a mixed hybrid str class do the highest single hit damage with an one handed weapon. Anyway techno herself said pallies are op.

I'd obviously say that birds seems to be op only cause of 2hit kill, if not dodged. A pure int mage can crush a good bird anytime if they don't get 2/3 hitted. But the obviously the mage also should not 2hit kill the bird, that's how it would be balanced.

[joshtheboss]

I agree at this point the three main classes are doing more than what they meant to do in few ways.

But pallies are op-est class at this moment, and whoever says birds rules ctf matches, no actually presence of pallies determine which team is gonna win the ctf match.

PVP balance is in it's highest critical point when, a mixed hybrid str class do the highest single hit damage with an one handed weapon. Anyway techno herself said pallies are op.

I'd obviously say that birds seems to be op only cause of 2hit kill, if not dodged. A pure int mage can crush a good bird anytime if they don't get 2/3 hitted. But the obviously the mage also should not 2hit kill the bird, that's how it would be balanced.

BTW highest damage goes to full int mage with staff then int mage with wand and elite bird. Then dex bear then pally.

[KingFu]

I agree at this point the three main classes are doing more than what they meant to do in few ways.

But pallies are op-est class at this moment, and whoever says birds rules ctf matches, no actually presence of pallies determine which team is gonna win the ctf match.

PVP balance is in it's highest critical point when, a mixed hybrid str class do the highest single hit damage with an one handed weapon. Anyway techno herself said pallies are op.

I'd obviously say that birds seems to be op only cause of 2hit kill, if not dodged. A pure int mage can crush a good bird anytime if they don't get 2/3 hitted. But the obviously the mage also should not 2hit kill the bird, that's how it would be balanced.

I will agree pallies are arguably more overpowered, but there are far less of them than str birds, making them a smaller factor.

Yes, that's basically what Mage has become. If the other class dodges anything, they're one shot. If their skills land though, they nuke immediately.

[XghostzX]

Contrary to what most believe, I think the devs are listening to every single thing we say just about. This was a great post, MysticalDream, and I'm glad that you posted it. I'm sure the devs will use this at some point, simply because you're an old member of this forum and you've seen a lot and know a lot about Pocket Legends. The devs don't listen to just any random guy on the forum complaining about stuff in game. When they see consistency in complaints even from guys like you, they realize there is legitimately something wrong.

The devs have stated many times the way they view things. "This is a business." How many times have we heard that before? Any successful business will invest in the things that make it good profit. Pocket Legends once made STS big profit but now Arcane Legends is making them the big profit. It would be very foolish for them to keep investing in a game that is making them little profit.

It is clear that they do care about their other games as evidenced by the ads. Have you noticed that when you hop on Pocket Legends they advertise Star Legends, Dark Legends, and Arcane Legends? I've noticed that each of their games advertise their other games. What I'm getting at is that I feel the devs do, in fact, care about this game but their master plan for fixing it is to draw people in from other games. Once they get a good income going, they'll be able to start putting to action all the stuff we have been complaining about.

Anyways, just felt I should share that considering most people seem to have lost hope. I really don't think STS is done with this game, or Star Legends or Dark Legends. I just think they can't do what they would like to at the moment because, simply put, it's just not worth their time and effort.

I like your point of view, and how you're playing Devil's advocate.

Allow me to come from another perspective.

PvP was unbalanced well before Arcane Legends was ever out. Dark Legends was in the running, SL was being denied because PL was still up there. The stats were adressed (very rarely) and the changes did nothing to a tiny bit.

What I'm trying to say, perhaps, is that STS still loves all of their games (although, the more we are neglected due to 'business' the more i contradict this statement), but THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO ACTUALLY FIX THE STATS. I would love to see the devs gather up some 10-15 top notch PvPers from all different levels that could adress everything PvP wise. Honestly, if this were in place, this 'group' could make progress over time, and the Devs would realistically be doing none of the work. Going back to what you said, Micah, is that there is no point of putting in the effort by investing in a game that isn't as popular as the newest version of game...

Why not make it a win-win situation by pulling the information out from the players themselves, and letting the devs make those simple changes? I know I, and many others, would be willing to discuss stat/skill issues. I don't see what's so difficult in that.

[Waug]

BTW highest damage goes to full int mage with staff then int mage with wand and elite bird. Then dex bear then pally.

I didn't compare pallies with other mages rather compared with other classes, and your statement indicating you missed the point that I made.

When any class put points in str, actually they choose to tank more, and wanna be defensive that also means less offensive, that's what it meant to be, but even going with str i.e low damaging build, they're doing immense damage.

Edit : Get l76 gears, look at your drain, you'll know what I meant by highest single hit damage.

[Cheenivie]

The devs have stated many times the way they view things. "This is a business." How many times have we heard that before? Any successful business will invest in the things that make it good profit. Pocket Legends once made STS big profit but now Arcane Legends is making them the big profit. It would be very foolish for them to keep investing in a game that is making them little profit.

A wise man once told me years ago that if i start a buisness I would need to care of my clients and in this case they are taking care of only a certain % of there clients.

[Jig]

Sigh...yeah yeah sts still loves us .. We love them.. But do they realise that there pvp is turning to trash luck. @Legendfb if your saying drain has highest dmg yes it may but how many chances will it have to actually hit a bird or a bear... If that's what your talking about.. I support mystic 100%! We need something like a vote in the game to let the players that don't have forums or even have a vote on forums, let sts how many players a percentage of what NEEDS to be fixed! And id say endgame PvP would get the most attention. Thought of this when I signed in in Black ops 2 and they have these cool things where you vote out of 4 camos top 2 votes will get to be implemented into the game to purchase. For PL there should be like that but different, maybe then they will get the real suggestions from the community

[Caiahar]

Pallies might be OP, but their skills have a small delay. That delay could cause them to die.
Other hand, bird blast is almost immediate, so if a pallie casts drain, and bird shoots blast, if no dodge, most likely bird will be winner.

[XghostzX]

Pallies might be OP, but their skills have a small delay. That delay could cause them to die.
Other hand, bird blast is almost immediate, so if a pallie casts drain, and bird shoots blast, if no dodge, most likely bird will be winner.

Pfft, you got dis point from me ;)

Yeah, with damage as high as this, that extra half second is immense for a Pally. A bird can cast about 3-4 more spells that hit instantly in a span of 2-3 seconds than a Pally can.

[CrimsonTider]

I have said, and still say, we need two separate sets: one for PvE and one for PvP.

I say this because I agree with everything David had said, but by drastically decreasing dodge, it also affects PvE. A bear in PvE that doesn't dodge is basically worthless for crowd control. Yes, I can care less about if I am leading the group in kills-per-run. I also do not care to spam health pots (most mages don't heal anymore anyways.) But when I am being hit and stunned every .5 seconds, it inhibits my ability to tank and frustrates the crap out of me.

With that said, I like how the Elite Boulder is set up. I am required to use almost full base strength, but still have 99% hit and very good armor, health, regen, and dodge. The issue, like David said, with the other two Elite weapons is their stats are uber-powered which make for fun PvE, but a frustrated PvP community. Two sets, though I know not feasible, would help.

Of course I still in the boat of class specific gear. May decrease diversity, but would also clear certain issues up. And don't get me started having the "charge" skill we so long asked for for bears being given to the two new classes.

[Jig]

Yep that sounds not bad to be crim... Or just reduce pve difficulty. If you have elixirs like combos then the dungeons difficulty will rise. I actually think that's a good idea xD if theres something wrong tell me cause I wrote all that without barely thinking >.<

[Chang Yeo]

I say PvP has been like this ever since they brought out angelic gear.

66 has been my limit since I believe anything above is pure luck, making anyone with money able to kill.

Come back to twink at 50-56 guys!

[Caiahar]

Pallies might be OP, but their skills have a small delay. That delay could cause them to die.
Other hand, bird blast is almost immediate, so if a pallie casts drain, and bird shoots blast, if no dodge, most likely bird will be winner.

Pfft, you got dis point from me ;)

Yeah, with damage as high as this, that extra half second is immense for a Pally. A bird can cast about 3-4 more spells that hit instantly in a span of 2-3 seconds than a Pally can.
Well, you didnt say it, so decided to say it for you :P

[Cheenivie]

I say PvP has been like this ever since they brought out angelic gear.

66 has been my limit since I believe anything above is pure luck, making anyone with money able to kill.

Come back to twink at 50-56 guys!

im at 50-61:D

[Waug]

Pallies might be OP, but their skills have a small delay. That delay could cause them to die.
Other hand, bird blast is almost immediate, so if a pallie casts drain, and bird shoots blast, if no dodge, most likely bird will be winner.

Is this a bad joke or lack of experience in current endgame pvp as bird against pallies.

2hit kill is obviously a problem, but that does not mean, anyone can 2hit kill anyone literally. You projected the fight as if blast hit pally dye, lol.

Skill delay is very minor factor coming to it latter. A pally can literally one hit kill (no auto just drain) a dex elite bow bird, if not dodged and bit luck need for this though. If the bird survived that hit without dodging then next hit (whatever skill or auto) will be deadly for the bird if not dodged again.

But bird can't 3hit (including auto) kill a pally in any way, if the pally knows that it's all about 2to 3hit kill, they'll mana shield first, initial heal will do the rest trick, in earlier caps when fight would last longer, mana was a problem then as being non pure int, but it's not now, so these str mages can spam heal and mana shield fearlessly.

Few more points I'd like to add to clarify more.

1> Bird has to ruin it's highest damaging skill i.e blast to break mana shield.

2> When somebody compare damage between these classes, one thing they miss that, pally have shield birds don't have, that mean for the same damaging skills birds hit would cause less damage on that mage, compare to mages hit on bird. In this way drain damage >> blast damage.


Pfft, you got dis point from me ;)

Yeah, with damage as high as this, that extra half second is immense for a Pally. A bird can cast about 3-4 more spells that hit instantly in a span of 2-3 seconds than a Pally can.

This is extragation does not happen actually, it just the high auto weapon speed i.e dps, that seems like bird hitted more skills.

[blast]

Fbows should be usable Only on pve...fbows on pvp are way to op. Fbows are just like a shortcut to winning without using any strategy or skill which is obtained from experience and hard training. So there are just uselss all this time.

[Gaunab]

Is this a bad joke or lack of experience in current endgame pvp as bird against pallies.

2hit kill is obviously a problem, but that does not mean, anyone can 2hit kill anyone literally. You projected the fight as if blast hit pally dye, lol.

Skill delay is very minor factor coming to it latter. A pally can literally one hit kill (no auto just drain) a dex elite bow bird, if not dodged and bit luck need for this though. If the bird survived that hit without dodging then next hit (whatever skill or auto) will be deadly for the bird if not dodged again.

But bird can't 3hit (including auto) kill a pally in any way, if the pally knows that it's all about 2to 3hit kill, they'll mana shield first, initial heal will do the rest trick, in earlier caps when fight would last longer, mana was a problem then as being non pure int, but it's not now, so these str mages can spam heal and mana shield fearlessly.

Few more points I'd like to add to clarify more.

1> Bird has to ruin it's highest damaging skill i.e blast to break mana shield.

2> When somebody compare damage between these classes, one thing they miss that, pally have shield birds don't have, that mean for the same damaging skills birds hit would cause less damage on that mage, compare to mages hit on bird. In this way drain damage >> blast damage.


This is extragation does not happen actually, it just the high auto weapon speed i.e dps, that seems like bird hitted more skills.

No offense but if you are a 76 bird and struggle that much against pallies you either have the wrong combo or are just not playing smart enough. Sure, they can 2hit you, but when you blind first they barely hit anything through that 60 dodge on a bird. Unshielded I can often take them out with a root and a few arrows before they even have a chance to hit their nuke (because of the skilld delay of ice drain and lighting). Good birds kill pallies far more often than they die to them.

Also using drain to demonstrate how OP Pallies are is pretty ludicrous. It has the longest cooldown of all dmg skills, a long delay and gets dodged most of the time anyways. Blast hits for almost the same damage (enough to 1shot intmages and dexbirds without elite ring), does aoe dmg even to people who are out of your 12m range, triggers a deadly combo, pops manashields and regenerates faster.


Its not a certain class or build or skill that is OP and runis the balance of endgame PvP. Its certain stats that are getting too high on multiple class. On birds its dodge and damage (and hit%), on intmages its damage and crit (and hit%), on bears and pallies its dodge and damage and crit. And all classes have too low armor which corresponds with the high damage. Partially thats due to the lv9 buffs or due to the unbalanced gear.

[Roberto077]

I find it kind of annoying when people steal thunder in comments, so I'm just going to say one word:

Agreed.

[XghostzX]

@Gaunab - Aside from too low of armor, it's also how our Health Points are not proportional to the amount of damage a user can deal. I know it's been brought up a lot, but I would appreciate the tiniest change - if STS could increase our health pool by around 4-5x more.

[Zeus]

Is this a bad joke or lack of experience in current endgame pvp as bird against pallies.

2hit kill is obviously a problem, but that does not mean, anyone can 2hit kill anyone literally. You projected the fight as if blast hit pally dye, lol.

Skill delay is very minor factor coming to it latter. A pally can literally one hit kill (no auto just drain) a dex elite bow bird, if not dodged and bit luck need for this though. If the bird survived that hit without dodging then next hit (whatever skill or auto) will be deadly for the bird if not dodged again.

But bird can't 3hit (including auto) kill a pally in any way, if the pally knows that it's all about 2to 3hit kill, they'll mana shield first, initial heal will do the rest trick, in earlier caps when fight would last longer, mana was a problem then as being non pure int, but it's not now, so these str mages can spam heal and mana shield fearlessly.

Few more points I'd like to add to clarify more.

1> Bird has to ruin it's highest damaging skill i.e blast to break mana shield.

2> When somebody compare damage between these classes, one thing they miss that, pally have shield birds don't have, that mean for the same damaging skills birds hit would cause less damage on that mage, compare to mages hit on bird. In this way drain damage >> blast damage.



This is extragation does not happen actually, it just the high auto weapon speed i.e dps, that seems like bird hitted more skills.

Honestly, as you do not play end-game, and this do not have first hand experience, please do not spread information in a matter-of-fact manner.

The contents of this post is mainly theoretical & that's fine. The thing about theories though are that they are theories, not facts, so your "knowledge" is incorrect and you should not be spreading it around like if it were fact.

Also, birds are more than capable of firing off multiple instant hit skills in more than 3-4 seconds. Actually, since a bird has 4 instant hit skills at 12mm while a Mage has none, a bird can do a lot of damage before an elf's spells even hit.

[Caiahar]

Pallies/mage shoot drain, bird shoots blind, then Blast, crits, pally/mage doesn't dodge, then maybe game over. I see this when I go in endgame matches.

[Chickenrunnn]

I agree with all your words Mystical.

A fix is REALLY needed, for PvP as for CtF. The damage needs to be lowered, dodge also.

Old pvp days were gorgeous. Take the example of lvl66 cap : No dodging sets, very balanced classes, being skilled needed to kill; in a word, awesome game play.
Nowadays, mages hit 690 with 1 drain, birds 610 with 1 blast, and bears 1 beckon and 1 auto, GF, it's the end of the fight.


I have said, and still say, we need two separate sets: one for PvE and one for PvP.


Moreover, they should disable vanity powers in pvp and ctf (Triple vanity ring + black dragon set + founder), which truly make the user invincible. In addition, isn't pvp based on pure skills? Is having a substantial advantage normal?


Fixing and Balancing would take 1 day of programming. Is it truly an huge amount of work? 1 day of work, to save 3 months of game play.

So please devs, fix it, it is truly needed.

[KingFu]

I have said, and still say, we need two separate sets: one for PvE and one for PvP.

I say this because I agree with everything David had said, but by drastically decreasing dodge, it also affects PvE. A bear in PvE that doesn't dodge is basically worthless for crowd control. Yes, I can care less about if I am leading the group in kills-per-run. I also do not care to spam health pots (most mages don't heal anymore anyways.) But when I am being hit and stunned every .5 seconds, it inhibits my ability to tank and frustrates the crap out of me.

With that said, I like how the Elite Boulder is set up. I am required to use almost full base strength, but still have 99% hit and very good armor, health, regen, and dodge. The issue, like David said, with the other two Elite weapons is their stats are uber-powered which make for fun PvE, but a frustrated PvP community. Two sets, though I know not feasible, would help.

Of course I still in the boat of class specific gear. May decrease diversity, but would also clear certain issues up. And don't get me started having the "charge" skill we so long asked for for bears being given to the two new classes.

Very valid point. PvE is often overlooked because people consider it such a simple mechanic as opposed to PvP. However, what would restrict people from bringing the dodge PvE sets into the PvP maps?

To the mages not healing, that is because the sets make it so easy they don't need to know their class. I seem to be using Sewers as an example a lot, but that's merely because it was (arguably) the best and most balanced campaign. Back then, if a Mage didn't heal, or a bear didn't tank, people wouldn't tolerate it and boot. People like you who clearly know how to play shouldn't have a problem finding an efficient Mage that heals to farm with. Fort had little to no dodge, and it worked fine when farming. I think removing the OP sets, if anything, would force people to do their jobs. Those who can't handle it, will leave the game. Kind of like filtering out the players that really don't know what they're doing. Overall, I think sets that would require team work to farm (bears using taunt to actually take damage, mages buffing and healing, etc), would either make people start, or just stop altogether. Thus, improving the quality of the average player.

Also, I think part of it would be to lower the difficulty of the campaigns. The difficulty level of BSM now I'd say requires overpowered sets and elixirs to realistically beat, or at the very least they make it a hell of a lot easier. That makes people be much more dependent on their 4x combos and elite sets, allowing them to kind of sit back and not put in as much effort. On the other hand, you could argue a higher difficulty would give the players that don't do their job too much trouble to continue, but elixirs would become practically a necessity. So there are valid arguments to both sides.

Feel free to disagree though, as you know PvE much better than I do. I don't want that aspect of the game going ignored, but I do think PvE is a little more flexible and adaptive than PvP.

[nick_lorry]

Very valid point. PvE is often overlooked because people consider it such a simple mechanic as opposed to PvP. However, what would restrict people from bringing the dodge PvE sets into the PvP maps?

To the mages not healing, that is because the sets make it so easy they don't need to know their class. I seem to be using Sewers as an example a lot, but that's merely because it was (arguably) the best and most balanced campaign. Back then, if a Mage didn't heal, or a bear didn't tank, people wouldn't tolerate it and boot. People like you who clearly know how to play shouldn't have a problem finding an efficient Mage that heals to farm with. Fort had little to no dodge, and it worked fine when farming. I think removing the OP sets, if anything, would force people to do their jobs. Those who can't handle it, will leave the game. Kind of like filtering out the players that really don't know what they're doing. Overall, I think sets that would require team work to farm (bears using taunt to actually take damage, mages buffing and healing, etc), would either make people start, or just stop altogether. Thus, improving the quality of the average player.

Also, I think part of it would be to lower the difficulty of the campaigns. The difficulty level of BSM now I'd say requires overpowered sets and elixirs to realistically beat, or at the very least they make it a hell of a lot easier. That makes people be much more dependent on their 4x combos and elite sets, allowing them to kind of sit back and not put in as much effort. On the other hand, you could argue a higher difficulty would give the players that don't do their job too much trouble to continue, but elixirs would become practically a necessity. So there are valid arguments to both sides.

Feel free to disagree though, as you know PvE much better than I do. I don't want that aspect of the game going ignored, but I do think PvE is a little more flexible and adaptive than PvP.

I agree! PvP sucks and needs to be fixed, STS does nothing and ignores us all and steals our money wahh wahh wahhhh

[XghostzX]

I agree! PvP sucks and needs to be fixed, STS does nothing and ignores us all and steals our money wahh wahh wahhhh

Awesome 3 posts, Nick?...

[Caiahar]

I agree! PvP sucks and needs to be fixed, STS does nothing and ignores us all and steals our money wahh wahh wahhhh

Awesome 3 posts, Nick?...
Maybe new to forums but not in game?
o_O

[dudetus]

Lots of valid points and ideas thrown in this thread.

About Pally vs Bird I think I have currently the best insight as I play PvP only with my lvl 76 Bird. It all depends on luck in that as well. Unlike most ppl think, it doesn't depend on if my blast hits but it's all about how my blind and roots hit and how pally's fire hits me. Technically I will win if pally misses the fire as I get close enough to setup my combo but if my blind misses, the pally has a chance even if his fire misses due to Savage sets immense damage.

IMO the easiest way to fix unbalanced PvP is to nerf all buffs tremendously and increasing both armor and health pool. Best ideas are always good to throw around but we have to be realistic in STS wise.

PvP and PvE sets would be more than outstanding. The way this would be done effectively would be that:

1. Elite items couldn't be used in PvP arenas
2. A new stat implemented in PvP gear which increases armor, health, mana and damage only in PvP arenas.

As Elite gear would be disabled in PvP arenas (Elite weps, superduperfastcapreward) the use of regular gear would be decreased especially for birds. But if STS somehow truly turned their attention to PL once in a while, they would add a stat which would make PvP gear superior in PvP arenas while PvE gear would stay superior to PvP gear in PvE. I'm not talking about big differences, but there should be enough difference in stats that PvP gear is preferred in PvP and PvE gear is preferred in PvE. But both sets should still be viable in both PvP and PvE as too big of a gap would completely seperate the PvE and PvP community. PvP gear would be optainable only from a special PvP gear vendor, and to be eligible to buy the set, u would need enough PvP kills to buy them. There would be different lvl sets which u could purchase. The catch would be that u would need those PvP kills only at current lvl area to buy that lvled PvP gear, not like "15k kills overall and u can buy this set". As an example, u would need to PvP at lvl 75-76 PvP to get that gear's required kills, like 500 kills for one piece of armor, which u would unlock gradually piece by piece. PvP simply needs some incentive. Adding PvP gear would be the first step for doing so as PvP community is really large in PL.

IMO Elite Rings shouldn't be disabled in PvP arenas. Sure, they could be nerfed IMO but to actually disabling them would be a slap to veterans face. I've earned my 3 piece black drag elite ring.

[Zerious]

Hmmm... Perhaps the devs could make "PVP-only" equips as well as "PVE-only" equips? I feel like that's the only way there is going to be a balance in both relms of PL at this point.

The PVE players need certain stats in order to execute their role properly. That's understandable considering how brutal some of the maps may seem, having these "OP" stats may actually be most necessary for survival. The way "balance" is achieved in PVE is by identifying which classes can execute their role(s) fluidly vs other classes executing their role(s) fluidly against the PVE mobs and bosses.

The PVP player need certain stats that will aid them in their own functioning role (ie: Birds=dps, Bears/Rhinos=tanky, Mages=AoE nuke, Foxes= cross dps-nuke). Now having a faster pace of PVP as the level of PVP increases is an ideal concept. However, there isn't a way to establish balance in PVP when the PVE players require equips that cause an imbalance when the classes are fared against each other. Therefore, if there were equips that offer stats in PVP and also equips that offer stats in PVE, balance could be established in both realms.

Not only would both branches of the PL community be happy with something like this, but it would also present STS with more money-making opportunities as well. I'm not saying to make PVP or PVE plat-based, But perhaps different maps to farm for PVP items/sets and maps to farm PVE based sets. There would be shifts in the economy, allowing STS to offer second-(or third)-to-best equips from premium packs to kickstart players as they pursue better equipment in their campaign maps. Perhaps an improved Luck Elixir for these maps could be available?

I'm saying this problem as not "totaled" PL; it can still be fixed. But as PL's community, I feel it is us who need to find ideas to help STS help us enjoy our experience. Giving them blank rants about "dodge OP", or "Birds OP" only gives them half the information and no options. Who'll be testing these things? STS? Of course not, they're too busy for that. I think if they had players volunteer to help them troubleshoot, and I mean really go in depth with mechanics the way Physiologic did with his guides, then STS might actually give these things a shot.

If I'm not the only one willing to donate some time trying to fix the problem, then let me be the first to say "I volunteer to run tests for PL PVP"

[KingFu]

Who'll be testing these things? STS? Of course not, they're too busy for that. I think if they had players volunteer to help them troubleshoot, and I mean really go in depth with mechanics the way Physiologic did with his guides, then STS might actually give these things a shot.

Issuing ideas is one thing, but it sounds like you're talking on a whole next level. They haven't needed those things in the past, and they don't need those things for AL. Proof they only need to put in some effort, they don't need people laying out their work for them. They know the mechanics, from every aspect, we don't. As players I think we're capable of giving ideas and suggestions, but not capable of what it sounds like you're talking. I personally don't think a good explanation as to why STS isn't trying these things is because we're not going Physio style and laying out all the numbers and mechanics. As I said, they haven't needed that in the past.

Just my opinion. Even if we laid it out, they'd still need effort and to test it. They're not gonna trust "volunteer" players to test it lol. If they don't have the effort to try finding a solution with their absolute understanding of the game and their mechanics, they won't have the effort to try and implement our laid out numbers. Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying we should do?

[CrimsonTider]

Didn't want to copy and paste David, but what I meant was for there to be a way to have two completely different sets. If they can disable elixirs in certain maps, why can't they assign a code to certain sets to disable them PvP? Just the old man thinking out loud.

And I do agree with PvE needing a "tone down." However, I don't see this happening as this is where STS makes their money: Make campaigns ridiculously hard, peeps buy elixirs.

I am just afraid the game is so far in its last stages that they may tweak a few things, but not provide the overhaul needed.

[Kraze]

Didn't want to copy and paste David, but what I meant was for there to be a way to have two completely different sets. If they can disable elixirs in certain maps, why can't they assign a code to certain sets to disable them PvP? Just the old man thinking out loud.

And I do agree with PvE needing a "tone down." However, I don't see this happening as this is where STS makes their money: Make campaigns ridiculously hard, peeps buy elixirs.

I am just afraid the game is so far in its last stages that they may tweak a few things, but not provide the overhaul needed.

Always room for you guys in AL...just saying

[CrimsonTider]

Always room for you guys in AL...just saying

Traitor! Off with your head!!

(Oh wait, we did that back in Jan. LOL!!)

[Waug]

No offense but if you are a 76 bird and struggle that much against pallies you either have the wrong combo or are just not playing smart enough. Sure, they can 2hit you, but when you blind first they barely hit anything through that 60 dodge on a bird. Unshielded I can often take them out with a root and a few arrows before they even have a chance to hit their nuke (because of the skilld delay of ice drain and lighting). Good birds kill pallies far more often than they die to them.

Also using drain to demonstrate how OP Pallies are is pretty ludicrous. It has the longest cooldown of all dmg skills, a long delay and gets dodged most of the time anyways. Blast hits for almost the same damage (enough to 1shot intmages and dexbirds without elite ring), does aoe dmg even to people who are out of your 12m range, triggers a deadly combo, pops manashields and regenerates faster.


Its not a certain class or build or skill that is OP and runis the balance of endgame PvP. Its certain stats that are getting too high on multiple class. On birds its dodge and damage (and hit%), on intmages its damage and crit (and hit%), on bears and pallies its dodge and damage and crit. And all classes have too low armor which corresponds with the high damage. Partially thats due to the lv9 buffs or due to the unbalanced gear.

It's not about you and me, it's about balance and judging which class has advantage over other classes, if you're taking it to personal level, then i'd say that top class pallies (atm) do tree hugging always to beat me. If you take the point as they're not op then I'd say I SOMETIME beat l76 elite bow birds with a level 66 xbow set that does not prove elite bow isn't op compared to other bows either.

Also drain isn't the only factor it was just an example, and your assumption that, a bird can dodge drain, lol so a str geared pally can't dodge blast?

I didn't get it, how you get the idea that drain and blast do nearly same damage on each other.

Lets take a skill from each class, the base damage is 600, maybe blast and drain. So when mages 600 damage hit on a bird whose armor is ~220 buffed do the same damage when

birds 600 damage hit on a pally whose armor is more than 400 buffed???

It can't be, pally will hit much harder for that particular shot, that's what I meant in my earlier post.

As far as balance is concerned, I never say that pally op so it's unbalanced, no I said it for those people who blame birds as op even being a pally.

[Zeus]

It's not about you and me, it's about balance and judging which class has advantage over other classes, if you're taking it to personal level, then i'd say that top class pallies (atm) do tree hugging always to beat me. If you take the point as they're not op then I'd say I SOMETIME beat l76 elite bow birds with a level 66 xbow set that does not prove elite bow isn't op compared to other bows either.

Also drain isn't the only factor it was just an example, and your assumption that, a bird can dodge drain, lol so a str geared pally can't dodge blast?

I didn't get it, how you get the idea that drain and blast do nearly same damage on each other.

Lets take a skill from each class, the base damage is 600, maybe blast and drain. So when mages 600 damage hit on a bird whose armor is ~220 buffed do the same damage when

birds 600 damage hit on a pally whose armor is more than 400 buffed???

It can't be, pally will hit much harder for that particular shot, that's what I meant in my earlier post.

As far as balance is concerned, I never say that pally op so it's unbalanced, no I said it for those people who blame birds as op even being a pally.

Why do you think that disagreements are personal? He stated fact. The only reason why a bird should think a pally is OP is if the bird lags a lot, in which case I would ask, "why are you playing a bird?". A bird is the worst character to play with lag as it takes away its one major advantage: speed.

[Waug]

Honestly, as you do not play end-game, and this do not have first hand experience, please do not spread information in a matter-of-fact manner.



The contents of this post is mainly theoretical & that's fine. The thing about theories though are that they are theories, not facts, so your "knowledge" is incorrect and you should not be spreading it around like if it were fact.

Also, birds are more than capable of firing off multiple instant hit skills in more than 3-4 seconds. Actually, since a bird has 4 instant hit skills at 12mm while a Mage has none, a bird can do a lot of damage before an elf's spells even hit.

Apollo, Apollo, would you like to stop mind reading?

I'm basically an endgamer and do endgame 90% time these days. When I feel like bored or lag or spam my skills I switch to those blind rusher twinks.

Also, good luck killing a str with your 12mm ranged skills and without rooting, I won't say more.

I see this when I go in endgame matches.
look, whom, I quoted.

[razerfingers]

i just rush in pvp i got tired of the OP ness xD so apparently i got written down by some nub behr and "owe" him 56 kills lulz

[Zeus]

Apollo, Apollo, would you like to stop mind reading?

I'm basically an endgamer and do endgame 90% time these days. When I feel like bored or lag or spam my skills I switch to those blind rusher twinks.

Also, good luck killing a str with your 12mm ranged skills and without rooting, I won't say more.

look, whom, I quoted.

Who's your end-gamer then? If you have a problem killing paladins, then you have an issue with understanding the fundamental concepts of a bird.

Me and many other skilled players have no issues at killing a paladin, neither should you if you claim to understand end game mechanics.

Yes, a paladin can kite, but if you are lead into its trap, it is your own fault, not the OPness of a paladin.

Again, a bird relies on speed. If you're not killing paladins, there is something wrong with your build, combo, or attack sequence.

[Noi`ya]

combo, or attack sequence.

What is the difference?!

[Zeus]

What is the difference?!

I realized that, Chris, lol, but hands were too sweaty to edit.

Late night working out <3

In order to post, I wipe the sweat off my screen and fingers. Delicious, right? ;)

[Jig]

In order to post, I wipe the sweat off my screen and fingers. Delicious, right? ;)

o_O

[Waug]

Apollo, you're trying to get pointless, if you have anything to say about the matter you're free to say and criticize my comments, you're free to do so, that's the main purpose of the forum that's what it meant to be.

These are worthless (and does not matter as long the points raised by me are logical and to the point) saying you lag, you not an endgamer blah blah

As I mentioned before, no class is a problem for me neither I face problem against pallies, rather beat em (top class endgame pallies atm) in a way that they starts to tree hugging, as far as game mechanics are concerned, I don't think there are any other person in this game, barely who has so much in-depth knowledge about the mechanics, I spents great deal of time to discovers things by myself. Anyway this is my personal thoughts and will be considered as bragging no matter it's pointless post itself anyway, to answer the pointless posts of yours.

[Sryyoulose]

Honestly I think it's ridiculous that any class(Besides rhino) should have any problem killing a Mage. The only lvl that pallys are op at is L70... But we are talking abou endgame here.

[Zeus]

Apollo, you're trying to get pointless, if you have anything to say about the matter you're free to say and criticize my comments, you're free to do so, that's the main purpose of the forum that's what it meant to be.

These are worthless (and does not matter as long the points raised by me are logical and to the point) saying you lag, you not an endgamer blah blah

As I mentioned before, no class is a problem for me neither I face problem against pallies, rather beat em (top class endgame pallies atm) in a way that they starts to tree hugging, as far as game mechanics are concerned, I don't think there are any other person in this game, barely who has so much in-depth knowledge about the mechanics, I spents great deal of time to discovers things by myself. Anyway this is my personal thoughts and will be considered as bragging no matter it's pointless post itself anyway, to answer the pointless posts of yours.

I did not understand what you're trying to say, honestly.

Bottom line, paladins shouldn't be a problem for an end game bird. That is my opinion.

Honestly, you really should not take a difference in opinion so offensively.

[Gaunab]

I did not understand what you're trying to say, honestly.

Basically he said "Stfu, I know everything about this game and all your points are invalid."

[floats]

Nice debating battle between Apollo and Fb, would like to see moar ;) jk jk

[Zeus]

Basically he said "Stfu, I know everything about this game and all your points are invalid."

I know that's what his tone in his all his posts but I meant more than that.

Damn Indians are proud people who can't admit their mistakes. I should know, I am one. ;)

[Seminole]

You guys dont get it. Pocket legends brings no revenue compared to arcane. The TOP MAIN reason is vanity sets. Who in their right mind wants to wait three level caps just to be at a fair advantage with everyone else. Who wants to go up against founder helms? While all you top hanchos think it doesnt make a difference, it does. I have fought these issues so many times without any support from any of you. Now this is the end result. If you were a starting player, and i told you that you can play arcane legends and be at a fair playing field with every other player right from the start, or you can play pocket legends and be at a disadvantage for the next 2-5 years(without even factoring in founders helm), what game would you pick?

However sts loves you guys so much they are letting us keep the bonus, even with all the reprucussions. Its a done deal. All my predictions have come true and i honestly believe while devs may show some love every once in a while, they ultimately will neglect this game due to the lack of new players and player support.

With my full vanity toons, I would totally love to make some rhino/foxs with a fair chance in pvp. However i find it to stressful to wait three caps for this. Therefore i just play arcane legends. While all you hardcore pocket legend fans have made yourself rhino/fox classes, the majority of players dont want to go through the hassle.(pocket legends makes the most money from people capping to END GAME) This means less revenue. This will be a cycle for the rest of eternity.

Hard for me to explain this, but i hope everyone gets what im trying to say.less revnue= no game fixing.

Think about buying a brand new call of duty game, only to find out half the players have a hugee advantage over you(health, damage, etc) and you have to wait 2-5 years before you have a chance. I would defintely return the game asap to the owner, no way i would wait two years.

[Waug]

I know that's what his tone in his all his posts but I meant more than that.

Damn Indians are proud people who can't admit their mistakes. I should know, I am one. ;)

Nope, that's not my tone at all, my tone is pretty much basic, I want logical to the point and constructive debate. I said you're pointless, when you try to point out what I do, what are my in game situation etc, is that matter? Or is it not pointless?

Again you mentioned, where I belongs to in real life? Really is that matter, if I'd belong to alaska, so mages could not fire me? O.o

You said I made mistake, prove it please.

Sorry if it sound like I'm rude nope. I'm cool minded :) your behaviour is gentle most of the time, I appricieate that.

[Dreuefesie]

You know that something is wrong when you have people calling my bird pro...

[Prideeee]

Don't complain you'll get banned like I did. You won't accomplish nothing.

[Caiahar]

For a minute I thought I should take a bowl of popcorn and eat while watching apqllq and legendfb talk.

[MightyMicah]

You guys dont get it. Pocket legends brings no revenue compared to arcane. The TOP MAIN reason is vanity sets. Who in their right mind wants to wait three level caps just to be at a fair advantage with everyone else. Who wants to go up against founder helms? While all you top hanchos think it doesnt make a difference, it does. I have fought these issues so many times without any support from any of you. Now this is the end result. If you were a starting player, and i told you that you can play arcane legends and be at a fair playing field with every other player right from the start, or you can play pocket legends and be at a disadvantage for the next 2-5 years(without even factoring in founders helm), what game would you pick?

However sts loves you guys so much they are letting us keep the bonus, even with all the reprucussions. Its a done deal. All my predictions have come true and i honestly believe while devs may show some love every once in a while, they ultimately will neglect this game due to the lack of new players and player support.

With my full vanity toons, I would totally love to make some rhino/foxs with a fair chance in pvp. However i find it to stressful to wait three caps for this. Therefore i just play arcane legends. While all you hardcore pocket legend fans have made yourself rhino/fox classes, the majority of players dont want to go through the hassle.(pocket legends makes the most money from people capping to END GAME) This means less revenue. This will be a cycle for the rest of eternity.

Hard for me to explain this, but i hope everyone gets what im trying to say.less revnue= no game fixing.

Think about buying a brand new call of duty game, only to find out half the players have a hugee advantage over you(health, damage, etc) and you have to wait 2-5 years before you have a chance. I would defintely return the game asap to the owner, no way i would wait two years.

Hmm I agree that it does ultimately come to down to money in the end. If I had a wife and kids to feed, I'd probably be investing in AL as well. But do you really think that the sole reason for PL decline are the vanities at end game? Don't get me wrong. I don't have the vanities either and I know about the disadvantage that you speak of. However, I don't know if this is the single thing that has brought PL down.

[Seminole]

Hmm I agree that it does ultimately come to down to money in the end. If I had a wife and kids to feed, I'd probably be investing in AL as well. But do you really think that the sole reason for PL decline are the vanities at end game? Don't get me wrong. I don't have the vanities either and I know about the disadvantage that you speak of. However, I don't know if this is the single thing that has brought PL down.

Well their are many speculations and arguments about what brought this game down. There is no question that this is a huge contributing factor. Look at it from any standpoint. Even if you dont know about the bonus until you reach end-game, it will deter you from leveling another toon. Its just to long of a wait for the next level caps. Without enough content to keep us occupied, who will wait that long? I cant see why sts doesnt put side missions(example-acquire 500,000-1,000,000 exp for all three vanities) without having to wait. Can you imagine how much revenue that would bring?? I would be leveling up a wolf and rhino right now full elixers. If only STS was smart, this game could be a gold mine. Thus bringing more attention to this game. Heck, make me manager, as young as i am i can bring quick easy fixes to a dead game just by listening to the community.

[MightyMicah]

Well their are many speculations and arguments about what brought this game down. There is no question that this is a huge contributing factor. Look at it from any standpoint. Even if you dont know about the bonus until you reach end-game, it will deter you from leveling another toon. Its just to long of a wait for the next level caps. Without enough content to keep us occupied, who will wait that long? I cant see why sts doesnt put side missions(example-acquire 500,000-1,000,000 exp for all three vanities) without having to wait. Can you imagine how much revenue that would bring?? I would be leveling up a wolf and rhino right now full elixers. If only STS was smart, this game could be a gold mine. Thus bringing more attention to this game. Heck, make me manager, as young as i am i can bring quick easy fixes to a dead game just by listening to the community.

Good thoughts! I think listening to the community is key.

[Zeus]

Nope, that's not my tone at all, my tone is pretty much basic, I want logical to the point and constructive debate. I said you're pointless, when you try to point out what I do, what are my in game situation etc, is that matter? Or is it not pointless?

Again you mentioned, where I belongs to in real life? Really is that matter, if I'd belong to alaska, so mages could not fire me? O.o

You said I made mistake, prove it please.

Sorry if it sound like I'm rude nope. I'm cool minded :) your behaviour is gentle most of the time, I appricieate that.

You said it yourself - its pointless to argue. I laid out the facts for you and seriously tried to show you that a paladin should not be difficult for a bird at all. Unfortunately, even after laying out the facts and my reasoning behind it, you're still adamant that paladins are OP.

If you want to hold true to your opinion, that's fine. I completely respect that, believe me. However, if you meet me in game, I'd love to show you a demonstration of a bird being able to kill a paladin with relative ease.

[XghostzX]

You said it yourself - its pointless to argue. I laid out the facts for you and seriously tried to show you that a paladin should not be difficult for a bird at all. Unfortunately, even after laying out the facts and my reasoning behind it, you're still adamant that paladins are OP.

If you want to hold true to your opinion, that's fine. I completely respect that, believe me. However, if you meet me in game, I'd love to show you a demonstration of a bird being able to kill a paladin with relative ease.

Nerd-rage! Nerd-rage!

Silly Parth :P

[Caiahar]

^ lol will.

[Zerious]

Nerd-rage! Nerd-rage!

Silly Parth :P

This? the fuuuh?

[Waug]

You said it yourself - its pointless to argue. I laid out the facts for you and seriously tried to show you that a paladin should not be difficult for a bird at all. Unfortunately, even after laying out the facts and my reasoning behind it, you're still adamant that paladins are OP.

If you want to hold true to your opinion, that's fine. I completely respect that, believe me. However, if you meet me in game, I'd love to show you a demonstration of a bird being able to kill a paladin with relative ease.

Sorry Apollo, whatever you're saying (repeating), I never said that please read my posts.

Where I said pallies are problem for me? Show me/quote me.

Just arguing with you, isn't pointless, I explained 2-3 times, may I quote that again?

You didn't (so should I say could not) criticize my logical facts that I stated about this matter. Quote it please.

Again to summarize, I don't face problem against any class at any level.

Yes, I feel it unbalanced when a str class with shield do that much immense damage when this class literally one hit kill a full crafted set + elite ring + elite bow bird. (read my earlier post for more clarifications, that I didn't mention here)

In opposite, being str any class should tank more and damage less. That's what it meant to be, and this is against basic game mechanism.

Above all, it's not about me or you. It's not about mages or birds, it's about PVP balance

If you think, you can reveal some unknown game mechanics that can change our thinkings toward this matter, then do it, everybody will be glad to hear it from you.

[Jig]

Annnnnnnnnnddd thread locked..

Gf noobs

[Zerious]

not yet lolol

[Jig]

Btw before this gets locked passive skills would help fix the op skills .. Maybe they already have that planned if not well dam... They have it in all there 2 latest games so it's possible..?

[dudetus]

Funny nerds with their nerd rage!

[Extreme]

Nerd Shield instead Of MS

[Not Nick41324]

Awesome 3 posts, Nick?...
I heard nick41324 still stalks the forums. Pfff... Only god knows what his new forum name is.

[Jig]

^^^^^ O.O

Creepy 3 posts you have there "Not Nick41324"

[dudetus]

I wonder who Not Nick41324 is. His name tells us no clue about his true identity.

[Zerious]

I wonder who Not Nick41324 is. His name tells us no clue about his true identity.

even though i detect sarcasm it's true

[WhoIsThis]

Issuing ideas is one thing, but it sounds like you're talking on a whole next level. They haven't needed those things in the past, and they don't need those things for AL. Proof they only need to put in some effort, they don't need people laying out their work for them. They know the mechanics, from every aspect, we don't. As players I think we're capable of giving ideas and suggestions, but not capable of what it sounds like you're talking. I personally don't think a good explanation as to why STS isn't trying these things is because we're not going Physio style and laying out all the numbers and mechanics. As I said, they haven't needed that in the past.

Just my opinion. Even if we laid it out, they'd still need effort and to test it. They're not gonna trust "volunteer" players to test it lol. If they don't have the effort to try finding a solution with their absolute understanding of the game and their mechanics, they won't have the effort to try and implement our laid out numbers. Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying we should do?

Okay this is my first post in 7 months but here goes:

There isn't the playerbase of veteran PvPers left to do something like this. We're gone ... most of us anyways.

In 2011, at around level 61, I did make a general post addressing these issues:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42435-Towards-the-perfect-equipment-a-commentary-and-observations-from-the-past

I could update and create a new thread based on the outcome of the 66 sets, but there does not seem to be the demand that there once was.

At the time, it was ignored, although the 66 level (at least before Angel and the other gear was released) was acceptably balanced (I do feel that the dex sets needed a slight buff). Then the Angel sets threw everything right out the window. But it did give most players what they wanted - an easy set that with elixirs meant OP PvE domination.

For PvPers, it led to the complete removal of a skill cap. The reason - as was indicated here, luck-based PvP. To be honest, I suspect that in many ways, it's what the majority of the "Mynas generation" would have wanted as well. The reason being, well, becoming good at PvP in PL, whether it was tweaking or endgame required a lot of practice and careful tuning. It's like everything else in life - to be good at something that commands respect, something worth doing, it requires effort. For example, how many times did twinkers spend a bit of platinum to modify their builds to get a slight benefit? The problem is of course, newer PvPers did not want to put in the effort and thousands of kills/deaths that it takes to become truly good at something. In that regard, these "luck" based sets are merely answering the wishes of a large portion of the PL playerbase.

I do not believe however that this was STS' intention, but it was the end result. Of course, such a short term focus does have long term consequences - namely the attrition of the core player base. To be more specific, the problem isn't that the core playerbase is leaving (that happens with time), it's that no new players stepped up to replace that core. You do not for example, see a new generation of Ellyidols, Physiologics, etc nor a new generation of high end PvPers. An oldie would understand. Although core players only represent a small percentage of a playerbase, in any game, I do find that they have a disproportionate impact on the outcome of a game. I should also mention that quite a few people I knew appear to have been banned since I left - many of these were prominent people on the forums and in the PL community so the impact would have been substantial.

A while back, I also wrote another thread, noting that if STS continued on their current path, it would lead to the long term decline of PL. Well - I would argue that has happened. I think that STS knows this as well, and hence, the almost complete abandonment of PL and the re-focus of pretty much all efforts on AL. Eventually, I suspect it will happen to AL as well, at which point a new game will have to take over.

Edit:
If there is demand for it, I could put together a thread making recommendations on how a PL "revival" could occur, although I highly doubt it will be acted upon.

[Noi`ya]

If there is demand for it, I could put together a thread making recommendations on how a PL "revival" could occur, although I highly doubt it will be acted upon.

i hope u will!

[dudetus]

Okay this is my first post in 7 months but here goes:

There isn't the playerbase of veteran PvPers left to do something like this. We're gone ... most of us anyways.

In 2011, at around level 61, I did make a general post addressing these issues:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42435-Towards-the-perfect-equipment-a-commentary-and-observations-from-the-past

I could update and create a new thread based on the outcome of the 66 sets, but there does not seem to be the demand that there once was.

At the time, it was ignored, although the 66 level (at least before Angel and the other gear was released) was acceptably balanced (I do feel that the dex sets needed a slight buff). Then the Angel sets threw everything right out the window. But it did give most players what they wanted - an easy set that with elixirs meant OP PvE domination.

For PvPers, it led to the complete removal of a skill cap. The reason - as was indicated here, luck-based PvP. To be honest, I suspect that in many ways, it's what the majority of the "Mynas generation" would have wanted as well. The reason being, well, becoming good at PvP in PL, whether it was tweaking or endgame required a lot of practice and careful tuning. It's like everything else in life - to be good at something that commands respect, something worth doing, it requires effort. For example, how many times did twinkers spend a bit of platinum to modify their builds to get a slight benefit? The problem is of course, newer PvPers did not want to put in the effort and thousands of kills/deaths that it takes to become truly good at something. In that regard, these "luck" based sets are merely answering the wishes of a large portion of the PL playerbase.

I do not believe however that this was STS' intention, but it was the end result. Of course, such a short term focus does have long term consequences - namely the attrition of the core player base. To be more specific, the problem isn't that the core playerbase is leaving (that happens with time), it's that no new players stepped up to replace that core. You do not for example, see a new generation of Ellyidols, Physiologics, etc nor a new generation of high end PvPers. An oldie would understand. Although core players only represent a small percentage of a playerbase, in any game, I do find that they have a disproportionate impact on the outcome of a game. I should also mention that quite a few people I knew appear to have been banned since I left - many of these were prominent people on the forums and in the PL community so the impact would have been substantial.

A while back, I also wrote another thread, noting that if STS continued on their current path, it would lead to the long term decline of PL. Well - I would argue that has happened. I think that STS knows this as well, and hence, the almost complete abandonment of PL and the re-focus of pretty much all efforts on AL. Eventually, I suspect it will happen to AL as well, at which point a new game will have to take over.

Edit:
If there is demand for it, I could put together a thread making recommendations on how a PL "revival" could occur, although I highly doubt it will be acted upon.

D: !

I myself suspect that I speak for many other forum members as I think we all would greatly appreciate ur input and insight on the matter.

[CrimsonTider]

i hope u will!

Parth and Will have made similar threads dealing with both PvE and PvP and what needs to be focused on. All we can do is wait for the next update and see if the hundreds of suggestions threads will be listened to.

[WhoIsThis]

Parth and Will have made similar threads dealing with both PvE and PvP and what needs to be focused on. All we can do is wait for the next update and see if the hundreds of suggestions threads will be listened to.

Most likely, they will not.

On an unrelated note, Crimson, I do want to say once again that I do apologize for the thread in the past - I did not at the time anticipate that you would feel so strongly about the matter. No offense was intended in it.





It's difficult to imagine that much will happen in the next update and beyond besides a few incremental changes. AL is the star product right now and PL is well, a thing of the past with a slowly declining playerbase.

[Sryyoulose]

Honestly, we asked for elite quests with boss runs, we got it. We asked for rare desirable drops (Dragon). We got it. Honestly I do believe STS does listen to the pve suggestions... Pvp on the other hand :/

[WhoIsThis]

Honestly, we asked for elite quests with boss runs, we got it. We asked for rare desirable drops (Dragon). We got it. Honestly I do believe STS does listen to the pve suggestions... Pvp on the other hand :/

The answer is that itemization was not done with balance considerations in mind. For example the traditional roles of the 3 classes (and the new roles of the new classes), that has been well, thrown out the window. This has had impacts on both PvP and PvE.

[CrimsonTider]

I'm good brother. Live and learn.

And I am leaning toward "lost hope" side of the fence as well, but I am clinging to that last bit of hope. Maybe, BIG maybe, the reason for the long delay in cap raise is they ARE working to iron out all of these issues. We shall see.

[WhoIsThis]

The thing is, they do not see an incentive to do this apart from the endless feedback that we've given. It's one of those things that will in the long run, could generate a bigger player base, but in the short run, will not see an appreciable effect.

[Wendellism]

The thing is, they do not see an incentive to do this apart from the endless feedback that we've given. It's one of those things that will in the long run, could generate a bigger player base, but in the short run, will not see an appreciable effect.

I believe many avid PvPers like myself are looking forward to the day where The Next cap of PL would bring balance. True, PL is being ignored due to AL, but I doubt that STS would ignore their founding game. Unless, of course their profit mentality is akin to Zynga or Gameloft today.

[Wendellism]

Also, in relevance to the 2 new classes, when it comes to PvP in endgame, honestly I personally think those new classes are jokes. It's almost like a stitched up class done hastily, although Foxes are capable of being op themselves with the correct equipments

[Noi`ya]

reddit had an ama from a ex zynga employee recently, his take was pretty interesting

[XghostzX]

Also, in relevance to the 2 new classes, when it comes to PvP in endgame, honestly I personally think those new classes are jokes. It's almost like a stitched up class done hastily, although Foxes are capable of being op themselves with the correct equipments

Same with Rhino in CTF.

[Jig]

If they do something next cap that fixes pvp.. Everyone have a party

[Sryyoulose]

Ill have a giveaway ;) give some nub top notch gear and tell him to pvp.

[WhoIsThis]

reddit had an ama from a ex zynga employee recently, his take was pretty interesting

They seem to have imploded. Truth be told, it's a good thing for gamers. Zynga imo has reaped what is sowed. I suspect that the latest round of layoffs and office closures are just the start. That and the company was as usual overhyped. Pretty much their business model was to make inferior copies of other people's games, put them onto Facebook and monetize them. Unsurprisingly such a model has not been sustainable. Apparently their goal now is to try to make money off online gambling.

Anyways, they estimated that 5% of gamers would pay up for their games - which is typical in this industry. I would not be surprised if only 5% of people (or less) that ever installed an STS game ended up becoming paying customers. This is typical in a micro transaction-type game, most users end up uninstalling.

Check this out:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/blizzard-70-percent-of-new-wow-players-dont-get-past-level-10_1

This was WoW, near its peak. An if even the most powerful game in the MMO business has such a poor retention rate, well, less well known games are even worse off.


STS is no different - and it seems to be something that they're working on:
http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/Arcane+Legends/feature.asp?c=47232



In looking back at our previous games, the two things we really wanted to improve upon were our player-acquisition funnel and our 7-day retention curve.

[Wendellism]

They seem to have imploded. Truth be told, it's a good thing for gamers. Zynga imo has reaped what is sowed. I suspect that the latest round of layoffs and office closures are just the start. That and the company was as usual overhyped. Pretty much their business model was to make inferior copies of other people's games, put them onto Facebook and monetize them. Unsurprisingly such a model has not been sustainable. Apparently their goal now is to try to make money off online gambling.

Anyways, they estimated that 5% of gamers would pay up for their games - which is typical in this industry. I would not be surprised if only 5% of people (or less) that ever installed an STS game ended up becoming paying customers. This is typical in a micro transaction-type game, most users end up uninstalling.

Check this out:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/blizzard-70-percent-of-new-wow-players-dont-get-past-level-10_1

This was WoW, near its peak. An if even the most powerful game in the MMO business has such a poor retention rate, well, less well known games are even worse off.


STS is no different - and it seems to be something that they're working on:
http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/Arcane+Legends/feature.asp?c=47232

In other words, are they going to ditch Arcane Legends and create a new Legends title? Because after reading this article, I can't help but think about what exactly Gary was implying.

Please, could you enlighten me regarding this issue?

[WhoIsThis]

In other words, are they going to ditch Arcane Legends and create a new Legends title? Because after reading this article, I can't help but think about what exactly Gary was implying.

Please, could you enlighten me regarding this issue?

Precisely.

You will notice that right now, PL does not command the developer support, the attention that it once did. Certainly there are updates, but it's not the overwhelming priority for STS that it once was. The same thing will happen to AL at some point. When that happens, a new "Legends" game will supplant it. What does this mean for PL? Well, the time between updates, new content releases, level cap releases, and the volume/quality of new content will decline, apart from perhaps making the game compatible with newer phones and the occasional bug fix.

At some point, I imagine that the ST engine itself will show its age - because competitors will have a better product. I do not know how much knowledge you have of the computer gaming industry, but creating a new engine will at that point occur - an expensive undertaking that will take several years (I would not be surprised if at this very moment STS is working on a new engine to replace the ST engine) and likely several million dollars. Even today, lets face it, mobile graphics are where consoles were a few years ago in terms of processing power. And there are games out there that have graphics that are already putting the ST engine to shame. Now that in and of itself is not a huge problem, it's ok to be somewhat behind, but not years behind if you get what I am saying. WoW for example is the dominant MMO, despite the fact that it's graphics and physics are several years behind. Yet the Blizzard incrementally improves it in their flagship product. I think STS will find itself in a similar situation. Newer MMO titles by competing studios come out - and they have newer engines. Well STS will have 2 options - improve their engine incrementally and hope that the graphics don't detract too much (a strategy which worked well for WoW), or to create a new engine.

But the mobile MMO industry is still younger and I think graphics is a part (along with good game play and a good community), is more important. There does seem to be a perception that mobile needs to "close the gap" with console. Of course, it will never be fully closed. Physical limits put an upper limit of course on the processing power. The other problem is that to reach the widest possible audience, games have to have low enough system requirements to be played on low or at least midrange phones. A while back I discussed this with an indie. Anyways, he argued midrange was the minimum since not everyone buys the flagship phones. He argues that targeting low end phones is a "waste of time" since the monetization is so low (sub 1%) - income is an important deciding factor for what phone you get. You'll notice a common trend when developers compare Android and iOS - the monetization rate on iOS is universally better. That said, in terms of raw revenue, Android wins because well, there are simply way more Android devices out there.


What does this mean for STS' games? In my threads, I always pushed for STS to be more like Blizzard in that regard and to make PL it's WoW product.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?44958-The-future-of-PL-long-term-recommendations-my-most-important-post-for-this-year

The reason why is because the WoW (and EVE) model works - it's been proven to work on the PC. It is a method for stable long term revenues. Over time the game would grow organically. New tiers would have to be released regularly. Word of mouth would spread. That was my original belief and in my opinion, it is still the most likely best way to monetize. At that point STS could try several things, such as offering "elixir packs", "vanity packs", or some form of optional subscription that would grant various perks. Remember that this post was back in 2011 - and back then PL had a (in comparison to now) very vibrant PvE and PvP community. It also meant engaging with the PvP community more, something that has been neglected for the past 2 years. The reason why is because although hardcore players only make up a small percentage of the playerbase (<1%), we have a disproportionate influence. Plus we're some of the few customers who are able (and willing) to spend hundreds of dollars and invest hundreds if not thousands of hours in both the game and the forums. Hardcore players, although they are only a small percentage of the base lay the foundation. On top, there would be a hardcore base of players that spend 30+ hours per week on the games/forums, hundreds (in USD) per year in platinum (and/or subscription fees), and flanked by a massive community of people with varying time commitments, goals, and how they played the game.

STS rejected our recommendations entirely. Instead they've moved towards a sort of "slash and burn" type of model. Make a new game every couple of years (PL, SL which was based on the failed PC game Blackstar, DL, and AL), support for perhaps 1-2 years an then leave it dry, releasing a new game. This is a dangerous time to be doing that in my opinion. The mobile landscape is still young. I think that in the next few years, there is a good chance that a single player will become dominant - it will be a mobile equal to WoW. That game, whatever it turns out to be will dominate the mobile landscape in the way WoW has. To me, PL came at a critical time - it will either end up being the Everquest, Camelot of mobile MMOs, or it will be the WoW. That's why I advocated for decisions that would maximize the probability that PL would become the WoW of mobile MMO gaming. The type of business model that STS has embraced I think makes it that much harder for STS to become the Blizzard of MMO gaming. The reason? There isn't a sort of halo. Blizzard in that regard does not make multiple games per genre - Starcraft for RTS, Diable for RPGs, and WoW for MMORPGs for example. A high quality product is only released every couple of years. WoW by far gets the focus at Blizzard and gets the lion's share of development/support.

Another company that I would like to identify that I consider exceptional is Valve, which has generally released outstanding games, has a very impressive culture that I think others (including those outside the game industry) should emulate. Valve has also been known for "Valve time". They do not set deadlines. This is an acknowledgement that well, it's hard to predict how long a project will take - there are inevitably unforeseen circumstances.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1074301/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf

When you think of Blizzard and MMOs, well you think of World of Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo. These are different genres - notice that they only have a handful of halo products. They can say to the world - this is our product, what we think MMO gaming should be, and allocate the lion's share of their developer resources to that (which in this case is WoW). Another example - look at the PC industry. Compare the product lines of say, Apple, to the massive product lines of the Windows PC makers. Apple pretty much has a handful of Macbook and iMac products - it's a simplified line that enables them to focus all of their resources on a small handful of key product lines. I may not agree with all of Apple's decisions, but the results speak for themselves. To me, focusing on a core product, making that product the best is although most certainly not a guarantee, the best way to ensure that you have the most chances to succeed.





Edit:
Depending on the demand (particularly by the oldies), as I hinted earlier, I may put together a single large thread the way I used to on the subject.

[Wendellism]

You are correct in every point. This is considered a pay to win model, a trend which most games I have seen in the app store, and honestly in my opinion, I don't quite like the way games that are truly capable to be made. Now I'm currently talking via Droid and my phone often crashes thus, I wasn't able to reply using long paragraphs.

However, I am aware of Blizzard and Valve as great companies that update their games on a timely basis or so. In fact, I went to play WoW myself and I find the world and atmosphere there far more beautiful than that of PL. Though, since I'm in my army service, I couldn't get to play WoW every day, so that's why I'm on PL.

Thank you WhoIsThis for replying in an honest but realistic opinion. You sir, have obtained my respect.

[WhoIsThis]

Pay to Win "works" in a way because well, it's human nature. We do not for example consider that the "it's only a few dollars for shiny vanity item x" adds up pretty quickly. Plus there is also the human desire to "win" to come out on top. Pay to win means for many players that they can replace skill and time commitment with money. This can be a good thing (especially for people who have busy lives), but also it means well, that the best players are not so much dictated by skill as much as they are by player a willingness to pay.

Realistically there seem to be 4 ways to fund games:

1. A straight up price (ex: I pay $60 for this game - I get to play for life)
2. Subscriptions (per month or yearly)
3. Microtransactions (usually ends up in a pay to win model)
4. Advertisements (although $/customer is limited so unless you have a huge base there really isn't much you can do)

To be honest, I think that 1 and 2 tend to build up the best player base. It provides a barrier for entry so only committed people want it (which usually means a better community), plus it usually means that there's more money made to developer which in turn means better content for the players. Most games usually try for a combination of the few. 3 is also getting common in PC gaming and consoles - known widely as "DLC".

The other issue at hand I suppose is that development costs for good games has gone up over the years. On one hand, things like Steam, the Google Play store, the Appstore are a leveling field for Indie developers to catch up to so called AAA studios, on the other hand, gamers do want better and better graphics, AI etc, all of which costs a lot to develop.

[dudetus]

Pay to Win "works" in a way because well, it's human nature. We do not for example consider that the "it's only a few dollars for shiny vanity item x" adds up pretty quickly. Plus there is also the human desire to "win" to come out on top. Pay to win means for many players that they can replace skill and time commitment with money. This can be a good thing (especially for people who have busy lives), but also it means well, that the best players are not so much dictated by skill as much as they are by player a willingness to pay.

Realistically there seem to be 4 ways to fund games:

1. A straight up price (ex: I pay $60 for this game - I get to play for life)
2. Subscriptions (per month or yearly)
3. Microtransactions (usually ends up in a pay to win model)
4. Advertisements (although $/customer is limited so unless you have a huge base there really isn't much you can do)

To be honest, I think that 1 and 2 tend to build up the best player base. It provides a barrier for entry so only committed people want it (which usually means a better community), plus it usually means that there's more money made to developer which in turn means better content for the players. Most games usually try for a combination of the few. 3 is also getting common in PC gaming and consoles - known widely as "DLC".

The other issue at hand I suppose is that development costs for good games has gone up over the years. On one hand, things like Steam, the Google Play store, the Appstore are a leveling field for Indie developers to catch up to so called AAA studios, on the other hand, gamers do want better and better graphics, AI etc, all of which costs a lot to develop.

In my opinion, SWtOR has currently extremely user friendly way to fund the game. Basically it's currently a hybrid between 2 and 3 and free to play. Game itself is currently free to play, but as a subscriber there are convenience advantages such as easier travelling, unlimited PvP warzones and Flashpoints/Operations. And the "platinum store" varies from cool vanities to slight advantages but they all are sellable via "CS" and the gear advantages can be crafted or looted. The difference is completely convenience and minor look. As a free to play player u have slight restrictions but for a casual player, they aren't anything to overcome while p2p players can still play the game in a more of hardcore way. Everyone can play the game how they wish and seemingly the playerbase exploded after going from solely number 2 to this hybrid.

And I can personally say that IMO in Steam (as I use it mostly) besides of the few top franchises (CoD, BF, CS, Elder Scrolls, etc.), Indie games rule the "top bought" lists. Even though the indie games lack in graphics and gameplay smootheness to the top developers, the ideas (especially for horror games) are tremendously good compared to top developers "all user friendly" storylines and ideas. Such mega hits as Amnesia or DayZ aren't even comparable to the big studios.

Of course, PC gaming and mobile gaming aren't comparable in most ways. But STS shouldn't ignore the downfall of as an example Zynga whose strategy is incredibly close and what happened to Zynga will surely happen to STS in a long run. Economics and customer behaviour are alike no matter what operating systems the games use. Focusing on the already done genres is the best way to go as a gaming studio, Blizzard as the main example. After the creation of DL, STS had fantasy, Scifi and horror MMOS. Instead of creating AL they should have focused on making PL and SL better alongside with DL. And from the article u posted it seems STS is now making another new game. What are the guarantees that even after the new game STS wouldn't make another and yet another game while leaving all the other previously released games almost completely ignored as it has now been? Currently mobile gaming has been alike with this type of system (as seen from the major mobile game developer, Gameloft) but from my POV, the mobile game company who starts treating their mobile games in the same way as Blizzard did their PC games, will become the Blizzard of mobile games.

I personally hoped that game studio to be STS, but by looking the current route they are heading, I think I'll place my bets on Blizzard if it decides to take a leap on mobile gaming.

[WhoIsThis]

In my opinion, SWtOR has currently extremely user friendly way to fund the game. Basically it's currently a hybrid between 2 and 3 and free to play. Game itself is currently free to play, but as a subscriber there are convenience advantages such as easier travelling, unlimited PvP warzones and Flashpoints/Operations. And the "platinum store" varies from cool vanities to slight advantages but they all are sellable via "CS" and the gear advantages can be crafted or looted. The difference is completely convenience and minor look. As a free to play player u have slight restrictions but for a casual player, they aren't anything to overcome while p2p players can still play the game in a more of hardcore way. Everyone can play the game how they wish and seemingly the playerbase exploded after going from solely number 2 to this hybrid.

It is important to keep in mind too why SWTOR is in it's current situation. They were pretty WoW with a space theme. They also ignored a large percentage of their playerbase. In terms of monetary success, SWTOR is a failure in that regard. Had they followed the advice of their fledgling player base, they might have profitably ended up with a decent MMO and someday a competitor to WoW. But yes, the new model seems to be doing better (at least it's not hemorrhaging subscribers).

I suppose it's probably due to the past, but I personally do not trust EA - they've had too many shallow games, too many games with restrictive DRM, and ruined to many franchises - between that and a ton of goodwill lost, if a game says "EA" on it, more often that not, I will pass it up simply for the fact that it has EA. These days, there have been too many bad experiences. I feel though like my actions are vindicated by the results. For example, I loved Simcity 4; I still play it at times. But when Simcity 5 came out, I refused to buy it. My decision turned out to be very prescient, the game had unstable servers, caused solely by their decision to make an "always online" portion of thegame.




And I can personally say that IMO in Steam (as I use it mostly) besides of the few top franchises (CoD, BF, CS, Elder Scrolls, etc.), Indie games rule the "top bought" lists. Even though the indie games lack in graphics and gameplay smootheness to the top developers, the ideas (especially for horror games) are tremendously good compared to top developers "all user friendly" storylines and ideas. Such mega hits as Amnesia or DayZ aren't even comparable to the big studios.

Big studios chase after money. They may at times provide innovation in terms of graphics power (although even then, often new engines are developed independently now) - just look at CoD, which uses the same id Tech 3 engine (although it has seen some modifications) as Quake III. By 2013 standards though, it's outdated. Crysis is an example of a game that did try to push the graphics boundary. The game had shallow gameplay, but I do applaud their willingness to push the envelope.

In terms of innovative gameplay - well, it almost always tend to come from indie studios these days. I personally find myself buying mainly from indies as well, although there are some AAA games I still play, most notably Shogun 2. I buy games for depth of game play, the mod community, and the overall attitude of the developer.




Of course, PC gaming and mobile gaming aren't comparable in most ways. But STS shouldn't ignore the downfall of as an example Zynga whose strategy is incredibly close and what happened to Zynga will surely happen to STS in a long run. Economics and customer behaviour are alike no matter what operating systems the games use. Focusing on the already done genres is the best way to go as a gaming studio, Blizzard as the main example. After the creation of DL, STS had fantasy, Scifi and horror MMOS. Instead of creating AL they should have focused on making PL and SL better alongside with DL. And from the article u posted it seems STS is now making another new game. What are the guarantees that even after the new game STS wouldn't make another and yet another game while leaving all the other previously released games almost completely ignored as it has now been? Currently mobile gaming has been alike with this type of system (as seen from the major mobile game developer, Gameloft) but from my POV, the mobile game company who starts treating their mobile games in the same way as Blizzard did their PC games, will become the Blizzard of mobile games.

I personally hoped that game studio to be STS, but by looking the current route they are heading, I think I'll place my bets on Blizzard if it decides to take a leap on mobile gaming.


I think they're more comparable than you think they are. The playerbase is at times, more casual, but at the same time, as you have noted, the elements that make up a successful game or not are very similar.

I do believe that PL did push - they tried something that had not been done before, putting a game with enough depth to be a light PC MMO on a phone. Yes Gameloft and Zynga are definitely warning signs. I'll be blunt - I do not think that there is as much money in "social" or "mobile" gaming as people think. People used to talk about how the market would be several times the size (in revenues) of the PC market. When the first games hit the iPhone and Android, they were being sold in the range of $1-$5. The amount of sales for games priced more like at PC price points has been low and the number of people willing to pay up for the micropayments - I cannot imagine that it will be more than the PC and likely substantially less.

What it means though is that any company that wants to capitalize on mobile gaming had best do it's best for its community. Notice how quickly the top PvP community emptied out - right now PL is a PvP desert for hardcore players. Contrast this with games like WoW where people have played on for years. There are sites to help on "WoW addiction". That in and of itself is a testament to what they have created - a game so good that people need help when quitting! What does it mean? It means that mistakes could be much more costly than in the PC market and the consequences felt much sooner. Realistically, I cannot imagine PL having the kind of in depth theorycrafting and PvP community that it had between 2010 to 2012.

[Jig]

Oh god what is this! So many wordssss letters! Huge paragraphs ! Who's the Author.. Whoisthis! And Dudetus

[MightyMicah]

@WhoisThis Just keep talking, bro. I feel like I'm in a dark tunnel and you're slowly lighting it up brighter than the sun. ;)

[dudetus]

It is important to keep in mind too why SWTOR is in it's current situation. They were pretty WoW with a space theme. They also ignored a large percentage of their playerbase. In terms of monetary success, SWTOR is a failure in that regard. Had they followed the advice of their fledgling player base, they might have profitably ended up with a decent MMO and someday a competitor to WoW. But yes, the new model seems to be doing better (at least it's not hemorrhaging subscribers).

I suppose it's probably due to the past, but I personally do not trust EA - they've had too many shallow games, too many games with restrictive DRM, and ruined to many franchises - between that and a ton of goodwill lost, if a game says "EA" on it, more often that not, I will pass it up simply for the fact that it has EA. These days, there have been too many bad experiences. I feel though like my actions are vindicated by the results. For example, I loved Simcity 4; I still play it at times. But when Simcity 5 came out, I refused to buy it. My decision turned out to be very prescient, the game had unstable servers, caused solely by their decision to make an "always online" portion of thegame.

Sorry for de-railing the discussion with my SWtOR example. I myself just love to whole Star Wars as a genre and I'm personally glad how they stepped away from their destruction and turned the game around from a total failure to an MMO with slight hope - but isn't Star Wars always about hope :D?



Big studios chase after money. They may at times provide innovation in terms of graphics power (although even then, often new engines are developed independently now) - just look at CoD, which uses the same id Tech 3 engine (although it has seen some modifications) as Quake III. By 2013 standards though, it's outdated. Crysis is an example of a game that did try to push the graphics boundary. The game had shallow gameplay, but I do applaud their willingness to push the envelope.

In terms of innovative gameplay - well, it almost always tend to come from indie studios these days. I personally find myself buying mainly from indies as well, although there are some AAA games I still play, most notably Shogun 2. I buy games for depth of game play, the mod community, and the overall attitude of the developer.

Exactly. As STS is still one of the smallest fish in the big mobile gaming develeoper pond, they should try to do the same Amnesia and DayZ did on PC. As u mentioned though, PL is considered as a breakthrough on mobile gaming but as the mobile players are considered more casual than PC gamers, one innovative breakthrough isn't yet enough as it happened before mobile gaming became more "serious" business. STS needs to find a way to bond the gamers, when thinking in a wide scale, and I myself see the solutions to be innovative regarding mobile gaming technology and and to actually care about their players on community level. They already had that and I see no reason why they can't do it again. I can't believe how they turned into "Zynga" as they aren't big enough organization to compete against the big gaming companies in terms of launching new games. Possibly they thought the mobile gaming's casuality to be an issue and because of that turned into their current strategy while they should have kept doing on what they were doing. Being innovative and bonding with their customers.



I think they're more comparable than you think they are. The playerbase is at times, more casual, but at the same time, as you have noted, the elements that make up a successful game or not are very similar.

I do believe that PL did push - they tried something that had not been done before, putting a game with enough depth to be a light PC MMO on a phone. Yes Gameloft and Zynga are definitely warning signs. I'll be blunt - I do not think that there is as much money in "social" or "mobile" gaming as people think. People used to talk about how the market would be several times the size (in revenues) of the PC market. When the first games hit the iPhone and Android, they were being sold in the range of $1-$5. The amount of sales for games priced more like at PC price points has been low and the number of people willing to pay up for the micropayments - I cannot imagine that it will be more than the PC and likely substantially less.

What it means though is that any company that wants to capitalize on mobile gaming had best do it's best for its community. Notice how quickly the top PvP community emptied out - right now PL is a PvP desert for hardcore players. Contrast this with games like WoW where people have played on for years. There are sites to help on "WoW addiction". That in and of itself is a testament to what they have created - a game so good that people need help when quitting! What does it mean? It means that mistakes could be much more costly than in the PC market and the consequences felt much sooner. Realistically, I cannot imagine PL having the kind of in depth theorycrafting and PvP community that it had between 2010 to 2012.

Yes, as mobile gaming is more casual, the consumer's opinions change more quickly and errors begin to show sooner than they show in PC games. But, this can also be an advantage to mobile game studios as the errors are shown more quickly they can correct to the errors more quickly. Too bad this hasn't been shown on STS side. And as u said long time ago, with every generation of new players, the average skill decreases. As STS can't keep hold of their oldest customers on PL (I started playing PL on November 2010 and recently quit) the average skill level decreases more rapidly. This affects mostly to the oldies who get frustrated with the new generation of players who don't know their roles within their classes and do not know the running/boss strategies etc. I myself took this issue in a thread some time ago (I'll post link to it in here as I find it). PL's current maps are more or less designed to be run on elixir. As the BSM (BlackSmoke Mountain) arrived I wasn't able to clear the first map of the new campaign with a random team as the first boss was too powerful for our unorganized team. It took me finally a guild run with Unity to clear the maps as the random games weren't able to kill the boss with me no matter how I tried to tell them the straregy. The daily blessings and daily elixir are the few main reasons I also blame the dramatic average skill drop as the newest players get accustomed to running with elixirs on the very first day.

Edit: Here's the link to my thread: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?79478-Elixirs-and-the-End-Game. The post is made mostly out of elixirs and how they ruin the true game experience and decreases the average skill level and how IMO end game has turned P2P and P2W format.

But about the community. STS just needs to acknowledge us and listen to us to gain back our trust. PvP issues would have long ago been fixed if STS had listened to the community and made those changes. Even though time has passed and there will never be same era again as 2010-2012 was in this game, but it doesn't mean all hope is lost. We as a community just want to be acknowledged and listened.

And I do apologize for possible grammatic errors. English is not my mother tongue and few errors inevitably sneak to my posts.

[XghostzX]

I find it difficult for dedicated players sitting back on the chairs hoping that this game would have at least been fixed before other games came out. I would have been far more happy if PL just ended at a certain cap where everything was completely balanced, and they didn't have to make new campaigns.

I'm also upset, because STS totally let their community down. When I first joined these forums and the game, all bugs and content were constantly being updated in game. Players didn't rely on some silly reputation system to help out others - they would actually give long, in-depth feedback for assisting others. I go through the general discussion, and there are always 2-3 locked threads because players are carelessly posting. Some may say that this is our fault as players, but it also comes from STS.

Not too long ago, a player named Griffian posted a thorough page about how the community has fallen through the forums. He made a claim, similar to what WhoIsThis stated, that with new generations of players coming, the more decrease in skill and assistance there is. Then I ask myself: Why are we constantly blaming ourselves? When I say this, I'm merely playing devil's advocate, because the only thing I want with this game is for our rightfully deserved attention that STS promised us at the beginning. If there is to be no new content, no bug fixes, no changes to any great suggestions players have, then what can we expect? We're bound to start complaining and turning into trolls. I was banned on my Ipad through frustration, Dudetus was banned for sometime, and EFM. Face it guys, the only reason half of us are still here is because we've always loved the community. I have never found a more caring community than the Legend's series, but we are, and have always been on an exponential downfall.

I hate Elixirs. I hate how the game is unbalanced. I hate how the game evolves around plat. I hate how we even have a suggestions thread when nothing is ever implemented. That mailbox idea that's been suggested a thousand times? It's such a simple thing, yet never even touched upon by STS. How about those guild house decorations, or creating our own house? What ever happened to STS's promise that they had PL's level cap to 101 ready for us? Greed and money runs the world, and I cease to believe that PL is STS' "First Love".

To be honest, I don't really know where I'm taking this post to. All I know is that PL will not be receiving any more attention, and there's nothing we can do about it. So why am I still here? I love the community, and I love hopping on to the game only to be greeted by my entire guild and friends. For spending countless hours and money (which unfortunately, I regret at this point). I found this game when I was going through rough times, and it was my escape from reality. Now it's nothing more than a pile of junk, in my view. I wish we could just reset this game back to the 56 cap.

So what now? We try to enjoy the game as it is. It's silly of us to waste our time making these long posts that will, in the long run, get us nowhere. Sure, we might get a couple thanks here and there to let STS see that others are behind us. Also, don't get me wrong Dudetus & WhoIsThis, I love hearing you guys speak. I love hearing Apollo, CrimsonTider, and MysticalDream voicing their thoughts because they know how this game isn't what it used to be.

Sorry if I had some grammatical mistakes in there. It's easier for me to type things when they first pop into my head.

[loliamsocool]

Wow, this thread came back with a bang

[WhoIsThis]

Sorry for de-railing the discussion with my SWtOR example. I myself just love to whole Star Wars as a genre and I'm personally glad how they stepped away from their destruction and turned the game around from a total failure to an MMO with slight hope - but isn't Star Wars always about hope :D?

It's not your fault. Speaking as a Star Wars fan, I've been incredibly disappointed by the conduct of Lucas Arts towards it's fans. The last "good" Star Wars game that I liked was Empire at War. Since then, we've seen mostly shallow games and SWTOR, which well, we'll have to wait and see what happens. I must concede though that I do not feel there is reason to be optimistic.




Yes, as mobile gaming is more casual, the consumer's opinions change more quickly and errors begin to show sooner than they show in PC games. But, this can also be an advantage to mobile game studios as the errors are shown more quickly they can correct to the errors more quickly. Too bad this hasn't been shown on STS side. And as u said long time ago, with every generation of new players, the average skill decreases. As STS can't keep hold of their oldest customers on PL (I started playing PL on November 2010 and recently quit) the average skill level decreases more rapidly. This affects mostly to the oldies who get frustrated with the new generation of players who don't know their roles within their classes and do not know the running/boss strategies etc. I myself took this issue in a thread some time ago (I'll post link to it in here as I find it). PL's current maps are more or less designed to be run on elixir. As the BSM (BlackSmoke Mountain) arrived I wasn't able to clear the first map of the new campaign with a random team as the first boss was too powerful for our unorganized team. It took me finally a guild run with Unity to clear the maps as the random games weren't able to kill the boss with me no matter how I tried to tell them the straregy. The daily blessings and daily elixir are the few main reasons I also blame the dramatic average skill drop as the newest players get accustomed to running with elixirs on the very first day.




Not too long ago, a player named Griffian posted a thorough page about how the community has fallen through the forums. He made a claim, similar to what WhoIsThis stated, that with new generations of players coming, the more decrease in skill and assistance there is. Then I ask myself: Why are we constantly blaming ourselves? When I say this, I'm merely playing devil's advocate, because the only thing I want with this game is for our rightfully deserved attention that STS promised us at the beginning. If there is to be no new content, no bug fixes, no changes to any great suggestions players have, then what can we expect? We're bound to start complaining and turning into trolls. I was banned on my Ipad through frustration, Dudetus was banned for sometime, and EFM. Face it guys, the only reason half of us are still here is because we've always loved the community. I have never found a more caring community than the Legend's series, but we are, and have always been on an exponential downfall.

The answer is that the environment of PL does not attract a hardcore playerbase. It's inevitable that the quality of player has declined. A while back, I was in a talk with some hardcore FPS gamers about Call of Duty - the massive Activision franchise. I noticed, there really isn't a professional gaming scene around that. Well there are many reasons (too elaborate to go on here), but part of the reason is the way the franchise was milked by Activision. While the new releases were pretty much expansions with little real content, they caused enough issues (in their changes) to get rid of the higher end players, yet at the same time too little to be a true sequel. The point - it can happen even with an AAA title. It all comes down to the decisions made. I should also mention the lack of a quality streaming system, which is an necessity.

If there are no changes well, what can we expect? I can give you an answer. The status quo - namely the slow withering away of veteran players. Once enough top players leave, all of that knowledge of PvP, of how to play, will wither away too. Because at some point, the critical mass of players needed to keep the endgame going will disappear.

The real issue is incentives. There is no real incentive to become a capable player that knows your class, the relative strengths and weaknesses of other classes, and how to PvP effectively anymore. This means several things - first that the ability to attract and retain new quality players is now non-existent. At the top, the skill cap disappears in favor of "luck based" PvP, which combined with growing frustration with the lack of progress and poor quality of new players leads existing top end players to go.

Eventually, you reach a point where what I call the "snowball effect" takes over, which is happening. What is the snowball effect? (Another one is the "domino effect").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_effect

To begin with - I realize that this post is going to sound somewhat elitist. Well, the answer is when you lose, a typical casual player, the impact is not huge. The reason why I say that is because they probably do not spend much on plat, they probably only have a few friends (who themselves are casual) who are affected, and their friends tend to be replaceable. When you lose a veteran player, or a top end player - the impact is much bigger.

1. First, the immediate impact is that they are among the smaller percentage of players who have put a lot of time, money, and perhaps most importantly, emotional commitment into the game.
2. Within the hardcore community, bonds and friendships tend to be deeper, and so the impact is more felt. In other words, to find new good friends takes weeks or months and they have to be of comparable skill.
3. PL does not have the huge playerbase that other games do - that means that losing a handful of top end players has an immediate impact on the state of PvP. Suddenly there are fewer players that have the skills to challenge remaining top players. Also, PvE runs become an exercise in frustration (at least where runs with not elixirs are concerned) and are more likely to fall apart due to the low quality of existing pugs.
4. Fewer people to teach new people how to play. This also means that there will not be as many people who are going to someday replace the current generation of hardcore players.
5. Other community impacts, such as fewer theorycrafters, fewer contributors, etc.

What it means is that when a hardcore player quits, there's less reason for the remaining players to stay. So a few more quit. Which leaves an even more empty community for the remaining. So even more quit. Eventually you end where we are today. At the same time, without the teaching, there is no replacement.

The forums are emblematic of the problem. Note the percentage of useful posts to say, flamers, trolls, has shown a progressive decline since mid-2011. That's because there's no good players to replace the ones that left, and the new generation has no desire to learn. I've hinted at this before, but the handful of hardcore players has a gradual effect on casual players who now have no direction, nobody to look up to, and see a game with no potential.

Compounding this problem, as more and more people quit, there is less and less incentive from a developer standpoint to put resources into bettering a game.

Seeing that there does seem to be some demand for this type of thread, I'll put together a big lengthy thread summarizing everything I have said, and recovery recommendations. Let me put it this way - were the bulk of the suggestions to be considered, realistically the best outcome would be that the game might be turned around in 6 months back to a state where it was in 2011. From there it could launch into something bigger.

[XghostzX]

Absolutely brilliant, man. I respect your words and thoughts a ton. If I may ask, why and how do you suppose PL might have a turn within the next six months? ^^^ (The last statement you made.)

[WhoIsThis]

I said it could turn around if major changes were implemented, not that it will. In fact, it probably won't because most (if any) of the feedback will not be implemented.

The most likely outcome is that the status quo continues.