Drop system revamp

So Gluttony's journey started in April 2010 and after over 2 years of coming to terms with the differences of how this system works there is a constant that I notice on the forums and that is the rage that drops being completely random has on numerous players. It wasn't until the Infested Deck event, before the realization sunk in that looting a vanity item is beyond awesome ...though my heart was promptly place back inside my chest when I realized the rate at which these thing were dropping but that was my first taste. From 04/2010 until 07/2012 absolutely no vanity drops, and that's not for lack of effort. I farmed heavily during the Easter events, and SL has always made new vanity drops available in most campaigns; guess I was just in the wrong place at the right time. Now that I have assimilated into the ranks of the ambassador program, my major issue is having to tell the new players "abandon hope all ye who enter here," and I try to sugar coat it as best I can.

I have already been asked on more than one occasion, "how can I get the undead mask to drop," and after explaining how the random drop system works the convo comes down to one major boiling point: "You mean I can farm this entire event and not get one?" ...and the answer that will ensue is yes. Yes, not everyone will be able to have one of these limited edition masks. Yes, despite hours of farming and hundreds (of thousands) of kills you may still fall short. Yes, this has happened to me before and it can happen to you. At some point the allure of getting a vanity item fades and the realization of how much time you wasted sets in. So, let's fix it shall we?

Proposal, no changes to the system need to be made just a minor addition will suffice. All we need is a luck counter. Think of a trip odometer in a car, when you start your journey you reset it to 0, after traveling to your destination you reset it to begin a new trip... well that's what its there for at least. In game, your luck counter starts at 0, for every finished (yes I mean finished, completed, exited via the circle) map you gain 0.01 to your counter. If you happen to get a vanity drop before the meter hits 100.0 then it resets, if not then you get a mandatory vanity item at that point.

Basically I'm looking for a fail safe to ensure that players don't end up with nothing after two years of patronage. Hours of endless grinding should net something in the end. It pains me to have to tell new players they could come out of a situation empty handed, and really that's all that can be said for the current system.

Now there will have to be some safe guards in place. First, the counter won't be visible to the gamer; this is to ensure they cannot game the system and place themselves in a map that drops only undead masks when they're due to hit 100. Second, the increment of 0.01 cannot be a constant to prevent players from counting up themselves; bosses per map can affect this number or time spent in a map, max kills in a mob, anything really as long as the number cannot be kept track of outside the system. Finally, tell players about the system, having knowledge about some of the internal code allows players to feel secure about spending their time in game; if you keep it from them then rumors of how to manipulate the system begin and eventual outrage only seems to follow.

Great post ... i like the idea ... but would there still be rare items? Because by your description there would be none as long as you put your hours. nto a given level. Again i like the idea, but instead of giving said item after reaching the required number of hours, maybe the player if given a random vanity: it couod be desired item or another dropable vanity. Me personally i dont have rino bats or gamers legs so i do agree whoheartantly with your post, but i stiol do see some need of rarety to these items.

Nice post. I suggested something similar to this in some thread somewhere.

But I thought a guaranteed drop was too much. Maybe a much better percentage until you get one.

Also, the counter should only be for individual maps. Otherwise, for example, I could farm anywhere. If my counter gets up high enough I could go to a map with the best vanity and loot it.

this is a great idea I farm all the time and I never get the vanites and I cant stand it when i see all these low lvls with so many vanities bc they just got really lucky, I also like how you suggest that the increment that it increases isnt to high bc then the game will get flooded with vanities but it could give us a chance to finally get what we are looking for

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Originally Posted by Aedenos:734478

Nice post. I suggested something similar to this in some thread somewhere.

But I thought a guaranteed drop was too much. Maybe a much better percentage until you get one.

Also, the counter should only be for individual maps. Otherwise, for example, I could farm anywhere. If my counter gets up high enough I could go to a map with the best vanity and loot it.

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Or one can just keep doing the map with the best loot so one can have a higher chance at getting one :p

This can be a delicate topic, as everyone likes to get items. What I'm about to discuss here is strictly my personal opinion on the matter, and does not represent STS or any of the other designers. There also is no right or wrong answer, as these systems do have their place just like pure random does. My goal is to help express my understanding of what can happen when such a system like this does or does not exist, as well as potential things that can be done in Dark Legends. I have flagged this in such a way because my goal is not to begin a potentially nasty debate and or flame war, and being the active developer on this game my stance will be viewed differently due to this. So I must tread lightly.

In the industry this sort of debate comes up quite often, sometimes resulting in yelling matches and raised blood pressure! There ARE MMO and RPG games (ones that some of you have and do play) that do this method of internally counting or boosting chances so a player gets that exciting moment in more or less scheduled intervals. The illusion of this breaks down when a player (or worse an entire game community) realizes that all they have to do is farm until point X (whatever X might be, 20k, 50k 100k, etc) before something great happens. Similar to a scenario where superstitions arise over things like posting about a drop, wearing a certain vanity item (or NOT wearing a certain vanity) it creates a line wherein everybody wins, and in my opinion makes it so ultimately no one feels special.

In regards to pure random drops (as is the case right now in STS games) the frustration and resentment over a drop rate or players that get a drop is an expected and significant negative trade-off. In the end one cannot make everyone happy, but there are middle grounds to prevent such extremes and appeal to everyone in a way that does not break the game. Generally in my experience players begin to feel entitlement due to amount of time spent and understandably upset when they see lucky new players receive an item before they do after barely any play time. This can and does suck, and I get that the feeling is crappy. In the long run however this has a greater benefit to the overall health of the game economy, and those moments of catharsis once the drop actually happens is more significant because of it. I'm sure when someone has seen the undead Mask after farming for all those hours the wave of excitement and joy is significant compared to getting that pink you know drops! The excitement was probably triple if you weren't farming and knew how rare it was!

As a comparison within DL, how do you feel when a Pink drops nowadays? They're decently common and expected across the board and the farming is pretty explicit in its chances. Add to that luck and suddenly getting a pink is ho-hum. And how do you feel when you see that vanity drop? My point here is that games need these moments. The moments that make you feel special because you finally got it versus knowing it was due. To this I have already made some changes in that the newer vanities that were recently added drop a lot more frequently than the ones already in the game. Eventually we will find that acquiring one of these items quickly goes from being super exciting into just another day at the farm, but maintain that excitement for the vanities which are explicitly rarer on purpose.

HOWEVER...

... both systems can and should exist in harmony. A good example of this is World of Warcraft and their PvP, heroic dungeon, and raid badges. Here they have created a balance of special, awesome drops that are strictly random and tied to the completion of an objective or boss, and a special currency in which if you never see that item drop, you can purchase something you DO want after a fixed period of time, saving those badges and re-running the content.

This is the route I am in favor of taking Dark Legends, by awarding a new currency or drop which can then be exchanged for goods that you want in addition to the items you wish to see drop which remain purely random chance.

The counting idea isn't necessarily off the table, it is however something not currently supported in our engine and would require some retooling in order to propagate properly to all the games that wanted to use it. Quite an overhaul, and thus not very likely. I'm thinking on solutions for this in DL, and my current position is on that of additional currency or drop types that can be turned into something the player wants.

Now, let's keep the debate going without any flaming please :vsmile:

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Originally Posted by Cahaun

Or one can just keep doing the map with the best loot so one can have a higher chance at getting one :p

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your counter wouldn't affect other people.

As long as the currency that you can slowly stockpile to eventually be guaranteed the super drop is used towards the SAME items that drop. I wouldn't want the currency system to provide different rewards. Players want the items that drop... not some consolation prize

Hummm, after reading both lengthy posts, it boils to time. Do you have it? I know I dont. DL thrives on energy and the mechanics helps non-grinders level to stay competitive. This is also adding to the changes soon to take effect next week. Do we have time to grind, not really...this is mobile right XD

You mention WoW, but DL is sopposed to be a quick dose of happiness so-to-speak, mobility and not geard to long sessions (levels are really short). DL is geared to the older audience, hence the timers. Vanities are a whole issue in it's self. they provide no benefit besides looking like a king in camelot. Everyone should win when it comes to looks, but stats is what DL should work towards. PvP is the only since of competition and additional real feature to DL, SL, and PL besides fueling the need to collect. whats the competition, "Who can collect the most" but it would be nice to collect :D because i have that disorder XD

well, the gems and weapons are ok for DL but its not my driving force, its the ease of playing. Anyone can take 5 min and collect a bit of gold and xp and go off with your day, till we can sit down and kill some humans. Personalization is what makes WoW and any MMO survive. Give us the tools and we will stay and buy to our hearts content. I have seen DL suggestions for ethnic looks, more guild stuff, more vanity options ect... yet only a few have surfaced (SL color of hair and face options).

Having Glut mechanic gives players hope, and knowing there efforts are not waisted. Random just fuels hatred, because youngins get the cool stuff, while the people who buy plat and put in the time feel remorse and jealousy. why we level right XD to get all the good stuff (but in DL it does not push that since any level can wear vanities if over level 5) but gems dont really serve much of a purpose and weapons look cool and hit great, till a level 10 joins a game with a level 26. Makes you wonder if stats actually do any anything.

but an emphasis on customization..like will a gem add an effect to a vanity? (maybe the green biker suite/ add a gem poof an armor plate shows up adding a POW to the vanity) but what good is a vanity if they cant be obtained in a reasonable amount of time and not divin by a random number or by luck of a reroll.

Cara sorry for being a thorn in ur back but in WoW after 2-3 weeks with a serious elite guild you cna get the drop w/e happenes :P
Back when my card did not end I got my Druid dressed in 2 weeks with 401 ilvl... And 401 is way too high

Octavos really well said man :P Even if I had to buy everything cause my luck sucks XD

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Originally Posted by octavos

Hummm, after reading both lengthy posts, it boils to time. Do you have it? I know I dont. DL thrives on energy and the mechanics helps non-grinders level to stay competitive. This is also adding to the changes soon to take effect next week. Do we have time to grind, not really...this is mobile right XD

You mention WoW, but DL is sopposed to be a quick dose of happiness so-to-speak, mobility and not geard to long sessions (levels are really short). DL is geared to the older audience, hence the timers. Vanities are a whole issue in it's self. they provide no benefit besides looking like a king in camelot. Everyone should win when it comes to looks, but stats is what DL should work towards. PvP is the only since of competition and additional real feature to DL, SL, and PL besides fueling the need to collect. whats the competition, "Who can collect the most" but it would be nice to collect :D because i have that disorder XD

well, the gems and weapons are ok for DL but its not my driving force, its the ease of playing. Anyone can take 5 min and collect a bit of gold and xp and go off with your day, till we can sit down and kill some humans. Personalization is what makes WoW and any MMO survive. Give us the tools and we will stay and buy to our hearts content. I have seen DL suggestions for ethnic looks, more guild stuff, more vanity options ect... yet only a few have surfaced (SL color of hair and face options).

Having Glut mechanic gives players hope, and knowing there efforts are not waisted. Random just fuels hatred, because youngins get the cool stuff, while the people who buy plat and put in the time feel remorse and jealousy. why we level right XD to get all the good stuff (but in DL it does not push that since any level can wear vanities if over level 5) but gems dont really serve much of a purpose and weapons look cool and hit great, till a level 10 joins a game with a level 26. Makes you wonder if stats actually do any anything.

but an emphasis on customization..like will a gem add an effect to a vanity? (maybe the green biker suite/ add a gem poof an armor plate shows up adding a POW to the vanity) but what good is a vanity if they cant be obtained in a reasonable amount of time and not divin by a random number or by luck of a reroll.

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This is very true, and I like the discussions like this that remind me that unlike the games I tend to play, this one is indeed meant to be more casual. In casual and non-casual games alike however, there are the dedicated few who want to see those hard to get items. Good points!

I play hardcore PC mmos and mobile...
I am hardcore in PC.. but play mobile for it's quick pick up and play sessions.
Everytime you add a new 100hour farm item... I ignore it. I could care less about spending 2 weeks to get something esthetic.
This game's economy is built around fashion... nothing that actually helps me. It is hollow.
Why would I spend 100 hours to be a pretty peacock when I could spend 100 hours in guildwars 2 and become a god.

No mobile can serve 2 masters effectively. STS needs to decide what their model is and stick with it. Rare items or quick pick up and play. Just make a choice and go with it.
I'd rather DL, and the other sts properties, chose hardmode or casual and stick with it. This mix is maddening.

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Originally Posted by Xaphan Fox

I play hardcore PC mmos and mobile...
I am hardcore in PC.. but play mobile for it's quick pick up and play sessions.
Everytime you add a new 100hour farm item... I ignore it. I could care less about spending 2 weeks to get something esthetic.
This game's economy is built around fashion... nothing that actually helps me. It is hollow.
Why would I spend 100 hours to be a pretty peacock when I could spend 100 hours in guildwars 2 and become a god.

No mobile can serve 2 masters effectively. STS needs to decide what their model is and stick with it. Rare items or quick pick up and play. Just make a choice and go with it.
I'd rather DL, and the other sts properties, chose hardmode or casual and stick with it. This mix is maddening.

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except GW2 isn't out yet Q_Q

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Originally Posted by Xaphan Fox

I play hardcore PC mmos and mobile...
I am hardcore in PC.. but play mobile for it's quick pick up and play sessions.
Everytime you add a new 100hour farm item... I ignore it. I could care less about spending 2 weeks to get something esthetic.
This game's economy is built around fashion... nothing that actually helps me. It is hollow.
Why would I spend 100 hours to be a pretty peacock when I could spend 100 hours in guildwars 2 and become a god.

No mobile can serve 2 masters effectively. STS needs to decide what their model is and stick with it. Rare items or quick pick up and play. Just make a choice and go with it.
I'd rather DL, and the other sts properties, chose hardmode or casual and stick with it. This mix is maddening.

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The identity crisis started with PL and is indeed the cause of most griefs I have seen with players towards sts (except for the occasional entertaining random lunatic :P)

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Originally Posted by BlacPlague:734893

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Originally Posted by Xaphan Fox

I play hardcore PC mmos and mobile...
I am hardcore in PC.. but play mobile for it's quick pick up and play sessions.
Everytime you add a new 100hour farm item... I ignore it. I could care less about spending 2 weeks to get something esthetic.
This game's economy is built around fashion... nothing that actually helps me. It is hollow.
Why would I spend 100 hours to be a pretty peacock when I could spend 100 hours in guildwars 2 and become a god.

No mobile can serve 2 masters effectively. STS needs to decide what their model is and stick with it. Rare items or quick pick up and play. Just make a choice and go with it.
I'd rather DL, and the other sts properties, chose hardmode or casual and stick with it. This mix is maddening.

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except GW2 isn't out yet Q_Q

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Lol its just a point. And it will be. And when it is, without some attention to issues... I'm gone. 6000 plat is a bad customer to lose

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Originally Posted by Xaphan Fox

Lol its just a point. And it will be. And when it is, without some attention to issues... I'm gone. 6000 plat is a bad customer to lose

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But you already loved wearing your armored suit and shakin ur butt proudly in towns :) Just joking :vlol:

But you stated some serious points above! I mean in WoW in these hours I would have all rare pets on my Hunter, fully geared druid! And full pvp gear for my druid.... For 1 gamer leg

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Originally Posted by Floating

But you already loved wearing your armored suit and shakin ur butt proudly in towns :) Just joking :vlol:

But you stated some serious points above! I mean in WoW in these hours I would have all rare pets on my Hunter, fully geared druid! And full pvp gear for my druid.... For 1 gamer leg

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DL is nothing compared to WOW.
I would rather grind for a rare item in WOW than for an undead mask that never seems to drop.

Sent from The Vular Hive! XD