Please address the clear imbalances related to the warrior class

I am going to try very best to keep this post both positive and constructive. For starters I think it is important to recognize the recent efforts that have been made to balance AL in the way of loot distribution closing the player gap related to gear. And even though this post is/will be to point out several inconsistencies and weaknesses related to the warrior class. You (STS) have done a really nice job improving the sorcerer class. You have mad just the right amount of tweaks to offer them enough increased durability and damage to become a force.

Now the issue at hand. I know this has been brought to your attention numerous times so nothing I am about to say will be new. The warrior class in AL has so many shortfalls that it is really difficult to know where to start. So maybe it is easiest to break it down into PVE and PVP.

PVE:
So for starters I have played many computer based RPG's such as EQ, WoW, and Warhammer. In all of these games the tank class has ALWAYS been one if not the most integral classes to successfully running PVE. Especially when it came time to engaging any end game boss. this couldn't be further from the truth in our game. In fact most groups simply avoid inviting warriors because they are dead weight. And honestly who can really blame them. The groups are more effective in terms dmg output and time spent running without them. Bottom line tanks are not needed at ALL in PVE. I realize that AL is not a computer based game but one of the attractive features to this game is that you can get similar gaming experience on your phone or tablet.

PVP:
This is the one area of this game that keeps the tank class alive. Because lets be honest if it wasn't for PVP there wouldn't be a single tank in AL. The warrior class in AL pvp is the most integral class. It is by far the hardest class to play because of the numerous responsibilities and the most sought after when it comes to clashes. And this is all GREAT except over the past two season tanks have been reduced to nothing more than giant pin cushions. Why? We do not do enough dmg to keep up rogues or mages so it is virtually impossible to kill and the few kills that we do get most of the time dont even off set the amount of deaths that we take. Again to reference other similar games the Tank class played with skill dominates every other class at it should.

Please take this feedback as sincere and well meaning. There are so many things that could be done to resolve these issues and for the longest we have been promised that something would be done.

PVE : Tanks are wortless.
PVP: Tanks are the best, to be honest better than a rogue at twink level in both 1 vs 1 and also Clash and also better than a rogue in clash in the end game.They are invincible specially when multiple tanks in the party specially at twink levels. If a tank lose, it just mean they are undergeared or need more practice.

Umm what? As far as endgame goes a tank can easily kill a rogue, except for those morons without a nekro using vb of course...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oursizes

Umm what? As far as endgame goes a tank can easily kill a rogue, except for those morons without a nekro using vb of course...

---

Tanks are not very good for vs the dps classes, especially rogue. Mages go 50-50 with tanks but a rogue will almost always beat an evenly geared tank.

If what you say comes from personal experience, then try timing ur skills when your not feebles, and waiting out jugg instead of spending mana trying to break it.

Honestly a tank vs a dps (preferably rouge) wont end well for the warrior.
Towards mages, it depends on the gear, but once the arcane shield is down, you should be able to kill them so i would say 50% chance to win.

Vb is not needed in endgame pvp imo, jugg,cs,axe or skyward, and horn dominates.

Respectfully, you are wrong. As it relates to end game tanks. Not twinks because as the first person said and I agree with from lvls 1to15 or so tanks are kings of pvp. That said in end game equally geared and skilled tanks vs rogues. Rogue wins 9 out of 10 times. Tanks vs mage, mage wins 7 out of 10 if they use gale. And this is 1v1 which I wasn't even talking about. I was referring to clashes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khicho

Respectfully, you are wrong. As it relates to end game tanks. Not twinks because as the first person said and I agree with from lvls 1to15 or so tanks are kings of pvp. That said in end game equally geared and skilled tanks vs rogues. Rogue wins 9 out of 10 times. Tanks vs mage, mage wins 7 out of 10 if they use gale. And this is 1v1 which I wasn't even talking about. I was referring to clashes.

---

So bottom line is, you're expecting to get more than sporadic kills in a clash instead of the dps. Tell us more about how pure tanks are doing that in any sort of team fights in any game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kingofninjas

Tanks are not very good for vs the dps classes, especially rogue. Mages go 50-50 with tanks but a rogue will almost always beat an evenly geared tank.

If what you say comes from personal experience, then try timing ur skills when your not feebles, and waiting out jugg instead of spending mana trying to break it.

---

I figured that out a while back, but then now and then theres a tank that keeps wondering why he dies faster than paper burns, and its generally due to using vb instead of jugg. Jugg will make it harder to die and reduce damage too.

Also, concerning pve, the primary problem lies in the reduced and mixed together class roles and the fact that everyone has potions to mash. In other cases/games where class division means something, even max-geared dps get down'd like flies in seconds at the highest difficulty maps. And the second most important, tanks are actually capable of monopolizing the aggro and incoming damage - yes, it does require timing and practice but it's there, it's possible.

Here in AL --due to game design-- there's neither content elite enough to make a tank necessary nor an appropriate skillset for them to effectively tank anyway. At this point of the game, it's too late for drastic changes IMO. Dps is the optimal path for elite farming, no way around that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madnex

Also, concerning pve, the primary problem lies in the reduced and mixed together class roles and the fact that everyone has potions to mash. In other cases/games where class division means something, even max-geared dps get down'd like flies in seconds at the highest difficulty maps. And the second most important, tanks are actually capable of monopolizing the aggro and incoming damage - yes, it does require timing and practice but it's there, it's possible.

Here in AL --due to game design-- there's neither content elite enough to make a tank necessary nor an appropriate skillset for them to effectively tank anyway. At this point of the game, it's too late for drastic changes IMO. Dps is the optimal path for elite farming, no way around that.

---

Well Warriors were useful before Nekro showed up.You don't need a tank because if your pt has nekro,you won't take any damage at all.
Even if they scale the elites,i'm sure that tanks still won't be useful,becuse everyone will use Nekro.

The just need to make it impossible for rogues and mages to do elites without a warrior. Allow warriors to have insane armor and survivability like every other game for pve only. Pvp just keep them as is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimitrian

Well Warriors were useful before Nekro showed up.You don't need a tank because if your pt has nekro,you won't take any damage at all.
Even if they scale the elites,i'm sure that tanks still won't be useful,becuse everyone will use Nekro.

---

Ankhs or instant resu makes tanks useless.Nekro? Why mages die then even if they have shield and their shield is far better than nekro shield? Improve tanks abilility to maintain aggro and maybe some will consider because it will make them use less ankh.

No one will care until aggro skills actually get fixed. As of right now half of the warrior skills are useless, the other half are for pvp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madnex

So bottom line is, you're expecting to get more than sporadic kills in a clash instead of the dps. Tell us more about how pure tanks are doing that in any sort of team fights in any game?

---

No that is not what I am saying. It is about level of enjoyment, period. There is very little satisfaction playing a class that can not at the very least match the number of deaths that they take during a clash. Especially when they are the core of the group. I have played a tank since season 2 and it was always the case that rogues racked up the most kills with mages second and tanks 3rd and this was fine because... Even though as a tank I wouldn't get a lot of kills I was also tough as nails and very difficult to kill so we weren't just soaking up the deaths.

Judging by the reponses I am seeing many are either coming from rogues or players that do not play end game clashes. This is not a new problem. There have been countless threads regarding this.

The bottom line is all classes be it rogue, mage, or tank should have an equal chance to kill every other class depending on skill and circumstance. This is simply not the case.

Anybody who says that an evenly skilled and geared tank can beat or be as succesful in 1 v 1 as an evenly geared and skilled rogue/mage has no idea or not enough idea, heck i only get kills against better geared rogues atm because they are plain inexperienced, I'm sorry but no, tanks are the class which get bullied in pve and pvp (excepting clashes). Period.

Warrior is useless in pve because it's broken.
Why would you run with a tank when it can't taunt so dps dies, does not dmg and even die with dps together.

1. Sts put dot on ss hoping it will help taunt but tbh ss doesn't taunt at all. I rather expect to stun than taunt. Dot should be on cs or wm.
2. Cd 's range is too short and it lost boss windup interrupt on most of elite boss. And it does weakest taunt and dmg too.
3. Vg and jugg should be scaled level. So end level gets more survivability and low twinks tanks become balanced with other classes.
4. Either more dmg or armor debuff will be needed in pve only on taunt skills.
5. Idk if it's just for me but I don't understand why more dmg gets more heal. It should be more armor/hp to get more heal.

Tbh this will be hard to be fixed unless sts make a waiting pt room that will hold start until +3 of pt joins and that requires all 3 classes. People who likes solo will hate that but this is MMORPG so we should play with other people.
Making boss harder is not a solution when warrior itself is broken.

The funny thing is that those that still farm with warrior turn to a hybrid and i will soon have to follow that path, they go for more damage and lose survivability which doesnt change anything because at the end of the day the maps arent hard enough for a skilled tank to die except those onehits in planar tombs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Excuses

Warrior is useless in pve because it's broken.
Why would you run with a tank when it can't taunt so dps dies, does not dmg and even die with dps together.

1. Sts put dot on ss hoping it will help taunt but tbh ss doesn't taunt at all. I rather expect to stun than taunt. Dot should be on cs or wm.
2. Cd 's range is too short and it lost boss windup interrupt on most of elite boss. And it does weakest taunt and dmg too.
3. Vg and jugg should be scaled level. So end level gets more survivability and low twinks tanks become balanced with other classes.
4. Either more dmg or armor debuff will be needed in pve only on taunt skills.
5. Idk if it's just for me but I don't understand why more dmg gets more heal. It should be more armor/hp to get more heal.

Tbh this will be hard to be fixed unless sts make a waiting pt room that will hold start until +3 of pt joins and that requires all 3 classes. People who likes solo will hate that but this is MMORPG so we should play with other people.
Making boss harder is not a solution when warrior itself is broken.

---

I agree with everything that you said.

Or one very simple fix to pve would be to leave everything as is and give tanks a MASSIVE damage boost. I mean lets face it the tank class as is has no current value so rather than changing the game just increase the level of damage to match rogues and mages and problem solved!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khicho

No that is not what I am saying. It is about level of enjoyment, period. There is very little satisfaction playing a class that can not at the very least match the number of deaths that they take during a clash. Especially when they are the core of the group. I have played a tank since season 2 and it was always the case that rogues racked up the most kills with mages second and tanks 3rd and this was fine because... Even though as a tank I wouldn't get a lot of kills I was also tough as nails and very difficult to kill so we weren't just soaking up the deaths.

Judging by the reponses I am seeing many are either coming from rogues or players that do not play end game clashes. This is not a new problem. There have been countless threads regarding this.

The bottom line is all classes be it rogue, mage, or tank should have an equal chance to kill every other class depending on skill and circumstance. This is simply not the case.

---

Bolded part is the issue here because you're trying to be dps in order to get more kills so of course you won't reach the class's intended survivability. And the '''countless'' threads (one of which is mine) are pertaining warrior improvements in PvE, never PvP.

Class balance can't work like that; the tank should have the advantage over aoe dps and a disadvantage fighting single target dps. In 1v1 situations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khicho

Or one very simple fix to pve would be to leave everything as is and give tanks a MASSIVE damage boost. I mean lets face it the tank class as is has no current value so rather than changing the game just increase the level of damage to match rogues and mages and problem solved!

---

That is a poor and not thought-through suggestion. You want to give the warriors equal damage output with dps but keep the double HP and 50% or higher armor? Oh that's not game-changing at all! Seems to me like you want to be dps without leaving your warrior. Won't happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Madnex

Bolded part is the issue here because you're trying to be dps in order to get more kills so of course you won't reach the class's intended survivability. And the '''countless'' threads (one of which is mine) are pertaining warrior improvements in PvE, never PvP.

Class balance can't work like that; the tank should have the advantage over aoe dps and a disadvantage fighting single target dps. In 1v1 situations.

That is a poor and not thought-through suggestion. You want to give the warriors equal damage output with dps but keep the double HP and 50% or higher armor? Oh that's not game-changing at all! Seems to me like you want to be dps without leaving your warrior. Won't happen.

---

You are speak as if the game is designed to account for the classes current strength and weakness. The game is designed to spam potions to stay a live, use elixers to increase damage and accomplish damage mitigation, and ankh for quick resurrection. All this makes the class roles non existence. So rather than redesigning the entire game just make it so no matter what class you play you enjoy pve.