Endgame PvP: Is the Ranger an Assassin or Bruiser? How best to balance!

Hi all, and welcome back to another Walie rant.

These seem to be somewhat consistent as of late.... and I apologize for that. That being said, I feel as though I really just want to post this and see what people think.

Recently I have begun thinking, what is the true identity of the fox in PvP, and how should Spacetime go about balancing it in the best possible way? The video below is essentially asking between: True Assassin, or Bruiser.

For those of you not familiar with these terms:

An assassin kills its target within seconds,

whereas a bruiser is classified as a class that does decent damage, has a gap closer (dashes) but is also just moderately tanky. Not as tanky as a bear, but also not as damaging as a bird, it would be a direct mix of the two playstyles under the "Bruiser" archetype.

Watch the video if you are interested and comment your opinion below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrKR...ature=youtu.be

Please do read below:

In essence, to solidify the identity of the fox, I think the easiest options may be -

Bruiser - Nerf Volta Dagger; Give Fox an Unstun on Howl. This would allow the fox to stay on top of its opponents and do consistent medium damage. The dagger nerf would be essential because if only the unstun were introduced, assassin fox would be busted.

Assassin - Increase Hamstring Stun Chance. Essentially, this would allow fox to be able to stun its opponents more consistently and kill them more efficiently, as an assassin normally would.

Which side do I lean?

I tend to lean on the side of making fox a bruiser, and here is why.

Fox, in its current assassin state, can never truly be balanced. This is because of the inherent nature of an assassin and how it fits into pocket legends. An assassin is designed to kill its target within 1-2 seconds. However, within PL, there is no counterplay to said playstyle. Thus, the fox must do that in a lack luster fashion, doing it in a much slower time (essentially becoming a nerfed bird).

However, with the new approach of balancing fox around using a strength set and being a bruiser archetype, we now are able to open up a plethora of options for balancing fox. Most notably, this would include giving the fox an unstun, while also nerfing the volta dagger set so foxes don't abuse it.

Furthermore, I believe that fox as a bruiser class can be both more fun to play and more fun to play against. Rather than being half-nuked in a fight just to turn and swat a fly away off your shoulder, a fox can now be a strength-set-using diver whose objective is still to kill the backline, but now would do it in a way that is both fun to play and fun to play against.

This is because people aren't dieing instantly, and I am not sitting stunned for 10 seconds straight.

Let me know what you all think below!

Cheers,
Walie

Thank you for posting your views on the fox class, again it is a very fair opinion of your class. And what improvements are required, again it is the weakest class in both pvp and pve right now.

I totally agree the fox class is in need of an skill that unstuns them from roots and ice.

All other classes have a skill that unstuns:
- Mage : heal
- Bird : avian scream
- Rhino : guardian
- Bear : stomp

"It's tough being a ranger. The requirements are high, among the most demanding of any character class" - AD&D 2nd Edition Players Handbook Rules Supplement.

I think PL is true to the class.

Origionaly Techno intended fox to be a int hybrid with the poison dot & heal being enhanced by int stats, and said as much but when Flufinstuff tested builds and posted results it turned out dex was unintentionally better for damage.
So to relate to op, it was suppose to be an assassin, but we all then found str hybrids to be more survivable.

I had a pve pure int one that I liked lmao

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fwend

I totally agree the fox class is in need of an skill that unstuns them from roots and ice.

All other classes have a skill that unstuns:
- Mage : heal
- Bird : avian scream
- Rhino : guardian
- Bear : stomp

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You're kidding me, You didn't know that fox evade "unstuns"?

I've pointed out long ago that this skill on ranger could perhaps use a decrease in cool down or be moved to another skill that would be an appropriate fit, howl perhaps. I'll try to find my old posts on this.

Nope never noticed it. I learn something new each day. Never use the fox and rhino class much, they are terrible to farm with.

Having the unstun on a buff is a disadvantage. Where as other classes can buff up when they are ready to attack and save their unstun skill for when they are rooted. THe fox does not have this option.

The cool down time on the unstun skills at 10 points each are:
- Mage, heal 3 seconds.
- Bird, avian scream 8 seconds.
- Rhino - guardian 20 seconds.
- Bear - stomp 5 seconds.
- Fox - evasion 15 seconds.

The fox howl skill cool down time is 5.5 seconds, the unstun would be better utilised on this skill as Walie suggested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fwend

Nope never noticed it. I learn something new each day. Never use the fox and rhino class much, they are terrible to farm with.

Having the unstun on a buff is a disadvantage. Where as other classes can buff up when they are ready to attack and save their unstun skill for when they are rooted. THe fox does not have this option.

The cool down time on the unstun skills at 10 points each are:
- Mage, heal 3 seconds.
- Bird, avian scream 8 seconds.
- Rhino - guardian 20 seconds.
- Bear - stomp 5 seconds.
- Fox - evasion 15 seconds.

The fox howl skill cool down time is 5.5 seconds, the unstun would be better utilised on this skill as Walie suggested.

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Ah, np. I don't use fox much, either. I posted the exact same data about cool down times back in September 2017 lol.

Attachment 169595

There we go. Found it.

And don't forget, rhino heal also works to remove stuns, and the cool down is 5 seconds. Same as bear's stomp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fwend

The fox howl skill cool down time is 5.5 seconds, the unstun would be better utilised on this skill as Walie suggested.

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As I suggested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draebatad

And don't forget, rhino heal also works to remove stuns, and the cool down is 5 seconds. Same as bear's stomp.



As I suggested.

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Then I think we are all in agreement, an unstun on howl would be nice. That being said, I can't stress enough that a nerf on volta dagger set would also be ideal if this change takes place. Otherwise, dagger fox will be a killing machine that sticks to you even more than it did previously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draebatad

And don't forget, rhino heal also works to remove stuns, and the cool down is 5 seconds. Same as bear's stomp.



As I suggested.

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This has been suggested by players since the fox class was released 4-5 years ago.

That being said, I think it's time to listen to the player base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dolloway

This has been suggested by players since the fox class was released 4-5 years ago.

That being said, I think it's time to listen to the player base.

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Hes suggested move the ability to a different skill and not a buff. How has he not listened to it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mine AGK

Hes suggested move the ability to a different skill and not a buff. How has he not listened to it?

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I believe he is talking about it is time for the devs to listen to the player base....as in to make it happen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draebatad

And don't forget, rhino heal also works to remove stuns, and the cool down is 5 seconds. Same as bear's stomp.



As I suggested.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dolloway

This has been suggested by players since the fox class was released 4-5 years ago.

That being said, I think it's time to listen to the player base.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Idevour

I believe he is talking about it is time for the devs to listen to the player base....as in to make it happen

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In the past, I have been against this change but recently came to the realization that without it, the class can't truly be balanced. I too agree that fox for sure needs an unstun on howl, and it would greatly increase the viability of the class in both PvP and PvE. Thank you all for your responses thus far!

Thank you,
Walie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Congeniality

In the past, I have been against this change but recently came to the realization that without it, the class can't truly be balanced. I too agree that fox for sure needs an unstun on howl, and it would greatly increase the viability of the class in both PvP and PvE. Thank you all for your responses thus far!

Thank you,
Walie

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You're welcome. But, any changes must be done with surgical precision in order to keep the ranger true to its class as being the most challenging character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draebatad

"It's tough being a ranger. The requirements are high, among the most demanding of any character class" - AD&D 2nd Edition Players Handbook Rules Supplement.

I think PL is true to the class.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Draebatad

You're welcome. But, any changes must be done with surgical precision in order to keep the ranger true to its class as being the most challenging character.

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I wholeheartedly agree and am glad that people within the community feel the same way. The fox class should (and has been) be a high risk, high reward character in the sense that it takes a great amount of time to master, but is appropriately rewarding in its gameplay without being overpowered. Which I believe we are very close to achieving.

Thank you again,
Walie