Juggernaut Change Discussion

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Originally Posted by Tatman

Yes, expect "nerf jugg" thread soon.

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There will be lol.
Some are not understanding how op the jug will be. Lets stg implement this and see.
Also warriors needs to get pve buffs. i don't know if stg can keep the pve buffs solely for pve. If not add that with buffed jugg.
No worries warriors deserves a season too. Time to bring out my war :)

Its already impossible to a tank kill a good rogue, so you try to debuff tanks but keep rogues at top?

MY FAVORITE CLASS IS NOT WARRIOR.Warriors will get abused like this as long as Debuffs over ride buffs,and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face.this make the pecking order Rouge>Mage>Warrior.with the warrior not going to be able to kill squat(let's see some legit 100% end game geared characters duel,so theres video footage to prove).Over the years I have had some of the most comprehensive builds for massively popular games with at times unbelievable amounts of luxury loot and not on one single game do tanks suck at damage like here(end game).So you wanna nerf the only thing tanks on here can do(I agree tho).OK so maybe kill 2birds with one stone?GIVE US DAMAGE OMG!!!IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.People start crying here about "now tanks will be op" blab blah blah...sounds like they like the 5second fights against Warriors because of the ease?now a challenge could arise and cry cry.Hypothesis: Rouges are #1plat buyers.PLEASE anyone here,I implore you,find a RPG where the "tank" class is the weakest...it's just ridiculous to watch sts brainstorm with people who probably don't play Warriors(hmm...wonder why...).then people who are RPG masters at times tell sts whats gunna happen,how people will veiw this "change" and it seems to get brushed off the shoulder .this game truely is boardering on a masterpiece,I sure hope to one day see sts cross that boarder. i wont ever pay a dime for al untill warriors are fixed .fix them or you will forever be called out,lose money,lose fans, and lose time.

@killian229 your post is the most accurate. I agree 100%

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

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Originally Posted by Carapace

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

- Carapace

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No need to sugarcoat it. This really isn't a PvE fix. It does nothing to speed up runs. Rogues and mages don't need wars for survivability.

Great for PvP, though.

It's a start. Nice work.

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Originally Posted by Carapace

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

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Thank you so much Carapace for your hard work and an attempt to correct things. Hope these changes can bring some life back to warriors. When can we expect to see these changes ingame?

So from what I understand about the dev team is that they want to keep Juggernaut a defensive skill.do this then,scale per level/health or armor and also add for a charged bonus:Any damage over X% amount of health loss is reduced to X.basically if you want to keep Juggernaut the way it is(or slight variations of such) you must stop Warriors from losing that 8-9k health in just a few shots.if Warriors are tanks...then rouges are artillery.I do apologize for my misguided passion sts team,I do believe you can/will fix this,just don't take too long!I want to see this game succeed, truly!

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Originally Posted by Carapace

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

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There is no way to eliminate many mobs in 15 seconds. All because the healer. It cures most of the damage we caused.

Attachment 144085


Watch the video. There are 2 warriors, 1 Rogue and 1 mage. It takes more than 15 seconds to just kill the healer. In this case you have only 5 enemies. It would be much worse if they had only warriors in the party. While the healer is alive, it has no way to kill the others.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtzi...ature=youtu.be

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Originally Posted by Dex Scene

I have all endgame classes so Iam not saying out of an imagination.
I didn't say warriors are unkillable atm. But if jugg gets all the buffs and then self heal at 50% below hp they just wont get below 50% hp and imagine what will happen in twink levels.
I suggest go make a twink warriors and come reply me here.

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You dont listen and you dont have much of an idea, warriors atm arent unkillable? Correct they are paper, yesterday a rogue broke my jugg in 2 seconds, she was skilled but 2 seconds?? (Plus i had her outgeared)
Not just once, i tested it, after the third time i gave up trying to kill her in vs.
Again play the class intesively in pvp, vs rogues, mages do clashes with 3-4 dps on opp side and see how your jugg lasts.
This jugg fix wont make warriors unkillable, far from it gosh, this fix will give them a shot at surviving and actually working as they are supposed to be!!
Its infuriating seeing you utter unthought phrases about a class you very clearly do not know much about at all, twinking is one thing, we are talking about jugg at endgame.
I do kindly ask you, pvp with the class at endgame, see how your jugg lasts against skilled players, test it out in all kinds of situations, then come back and give some input.
Btw i thought you might have noticed that this is a nerff for twinks? Basing the jugg buff on armor will actually help twink levels.

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Originally Posted by Oezheasate

You dont listen and you dont have much of an idea, warriors atm arent unkillable? Correct they are paper, yesterday a rogue broke my jugg in 2 seconds, she was skilled but 2 seconds??
Not just once, i tested it, after the third time i gave up trying to kill her in vs.
Again play the class intesively in pvp, vs rogues, mages do clashes with 3-4 dps on opp side and see how your jugg lasts.
This jugg fix wont make warriors unkillable, far from it gosh, this fix will give them a shot at surviving and actually working as they are supposed to be!!
Its infuriating seeing you utter unthought phrases about a class you very clearly do not know much about at all, twinking is one thing, we are talking about jugg at endgame.
I do kindly ask you, pvp with the class at endgame, see how your jugg lasts against skilled players, test it out in all kinds of situations, then come back and give some input.

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Lemme remind you the jugg buff will be coming for not just endgame but whole warriors at any levels.
Also lemme remind you I didn't say to not buff jugg anywhere.
I said the buff cara proposed is fine and don't need any more added to it if they want class balance. Also not to forget warriors won't just get Jugg buff. I am asking stg to buff warriors in more way so they get usefull in pve

Edit:
Added- and oh warrior is not a vs class.

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Originally Posted by soon

There is no way to eliminate many mobs in 15 seconds. All because the healer. It cures most of the damage we caused.

Attachment 144085


Watch the video. There are 2 warriors, 1 Rogue and 1 mage. It takes more than 15 seconds to just kill the healer. In this case you have only 5 enemies. It would be much worse if they had only warriors in the party. While the healer is alive, it has no way to kill the others.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtziKM_WjCk&feature=youtu.be

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I see many mistakes in the playstyle of the 2 dps. If u wanna know more send me a pm.

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Originally Posted by Carapace

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

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Humm..the 45 sec cooldown was always a problem, I believe no one understands why it is that long, almost double cd from the 2nd longest skill cd in game (shield from mages). You need to understand that we are fighting 30 SEC with 3 skills (this is more noticeable when doing 1x1 vs mage or rogue), and, like I said before, our attack skills have already long cooldowns comparing with mage or rogue.

I know this is more from a PvP perspective, but tanks do not really need jugger in PvE, MAINLY, because of its very long cooldown; Vengeful Blood is way better and makes runs faster (almost half of jugger's cooldown and also gives attack buffs).

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Originally Posted by Pedgon

Humm..the 45 sec cooldown was always a problem, I believe no one understands why it is that long, almost double cd from the 2nd longest skill cd in game (shield from mages). You need to understand that we are fighting 30 SEC with 3 skills (this is more noticeable when doing 1x1 vs mage or rogue), and, like I said before, our attack skills have already long cooldowns comparing with mage or rogue.

I know this is more from a PvP perspective, but tanks do not really need jugger in PvE, MAINLY, because of its very long cooldown; Vengeful Blood is way better and makes runs faster (almost half of jugger's cooldown and also gives attack buffs).

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Yeah, I have to agree. But thank you Carapace for even taking the time looking at juggernaut! I hope my warrior at its peak season cap will be a little more competitive with the adjustments, but with the high cool down and low damage, I might still succumb to rogues 1v1.

It's usually a stalemate battle if the fight is even close. Rogues out heal my damage when if I spec in jug.

Looks like elondrian bulwark 2.0
We get a buff and within a week is nerfed.
Yet rogue can kill a 9k hp warrior in the space of 4 seconds and this has been going for how long? I like the thinking, but I still fail to see how rogues and even some mages will munch on our limbs like chicken.

@carapace with the new design update you have planned so far for jugg increasing our armor for 15 seconds...are we pretty much receiving our original armor stats back after we was armor debuffed by all these pets and Rogs? Are all these debuffes really needed in arcane legends? What exactly is sts trying to achieve? Quicker pve runs and faster gameplay in pvp? Clashes only last seconds the higher up in lvl we go obliviously. I don't get why we gotta be debuffed constantly...like 100% of time during clashes.i think all classes need an hp increase some more than others like us tanks. This is a little off topic but I want my first question answered.

I read this hoping find something good idea, but this really not good. 1- this is completly for twinks low lv. What means u alredy have best gears, pets and im sure paras gems and eyes. So its irrelevant for a lot of ppl who only have good stuff.
2- sts gives to mages and rouges a pet like nekro to balance this kind of "problem"
3- jugg have worst cooldown ability. So protect for 10-15 sec and u need wait 30 sec more for land other jugg, when all know if u do head to head battle can dure like 15-30 sec. If both have equal gears maybe 60-90 sec
4- if nerf jugg sts must increase chance to stun to 50% for axe trow and skyr abilities for fair battle.
My conclution:
Better of nerf jugg will be
- for mage upgrade gale force for real defense up and real stun always.
-for rouges less mana cost from all abilities in low levels. so u can fight for more time.

We need fair play for all not just for some classes and more important not just for TWINK PLAYERS
Thank you!!

Ok remove jugg then make a skill for war that can kill rogues in 1 hit there problem solved -_-

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Originally Posted by Thundyrz

Thoughts on the cooldown... Juggernaut's cooldown is the longest of any skill (45 sec), but its duration is also longer than any skill (15 sec). If devs lowered the cooldown they would likely also lower the skill duration. For example a 30 sec cooldown may necessitate a 10 sec duration. This situation may be more desirable unless Jugg proves to be too op with a shorter cooldown.

Please don't forget that sorcerers are not rogues. In PvP (and PvE), sorcerers cannot deal nearly as much damage to a single target as rogues, so they may end up paying the price of an overly-improved Jugg because sorcerers would be totally unable to take down a warrior.

Lightning is NOT Aimed Shot, not by a long shot! Sorcerers get no crit bonus, no armor reduction, and the cooldown is 3 seconds instead of 2. Rogue is the true DPS class because the damage output ceiling is sky-high compared to sorcerers and warriors. A legendary-geared rogue can take out any given boss much faster than a top-geared sorcerer/warrior. Aimed shot plus other rogue mechanics are the primary reasons Jugg needs improvement in PvP.

I'm not attempting to create a tangent, I'm just concerned that we are focusing too much on whether Jugg is able to handle Aimed Shot/Shadow Piercer - aka rogues. The adjustments necessary to properly handle Aimed Shot, etc. could create an unbeatable Warrior in PvP, both for Sorcerers and other Warriors.


This scale seems more sensible than the previous iteration. If you ultimately decide to tie Jugg to armor, please also include the multipliers in the skill description so players are able to discern the personal benefit of an upgrade.


I agree the damage reduction of this upgrade should be improved, but 40%/65% seems like too much. That drastic of an improvement may lead to a severe imbalance. Maybe 30%/50% would be better?


I like the direction, but I'd want to see this tested in real-game combat. Many are saying that 2.5% of health is too low, but they probably aren't considering the fact that the 33% chance to proc would occur with *every* hit, including DoT. Used with other skills and upgrades, overall it looks like a very positive improvement - maybe too positive.


On it's own this would be a great improvement, but combined with the others it may make Jugg too overpowered.

Warriors need improvement, but, as Safiras pointed out, it should be an ongoing process with the Devs continuing to work with the community even after changes are made. I believe the Devs do this already for the most part, but when the Juggernaut changes are first implemented, it would help keep things calmer if everyone understood they are subject (and likely) to change before they are final. Simply calling it Jugg 2.0 beta on the forums and in the client update notes may help put everyone in beta testing mode.

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If your jug last 17sec mine dont omg can I get some of yours plz?

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Originally Posted by Oezheasate

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.

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Tanks die first and fast in clash now a days