My modified opinion of "the rush" (long overdue)

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Originally Posted by MoarPewPew

Well here is what I have to say. Balefort sewers is a interesting campaign. I think that it is a very restricted campaign in terms on how you want to run each level. (the routes you pull mobs)

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bring back the open plains of ao1 and the swamps?

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Originally Posted by Snakespeare

There were several different nerfs over time. I am referring to the one in which they modified every basic map from Swamp upward so that the boss doesn't spawn until you clear enough mobs. This was in response to the anti-rush campaign for which I will gladly take all the heat even though it was not my idea and I was only one of many players who wanted it. I have come to the position where I accept that this solution is the best solution, so that is why I have adjusted my official stance.

The other nerfs were:

1.) AO1 had the drop rate of pinks squeezed down so far that it hardly ever happens in that campaign any more. This was the first reaction to the rush causing a surfeit of pinks. The map that was used for rushing was AO1:V, and that was removed from the game until it changed.

2.) Swamps (before Lake Louis and the Scalefield/McCroc addition) were nerfed to make the crocs easier to beat. This was because people were skipping Swamps to go directly to AO1 and AO2 since the mobs in AO2:III were very easy to grind XP on (the Mynas Generation).

3.) AO2:III was nerfed by adding Lesser D'Jinn mini-bosses at many intersections. This was done after much pleading by older players to stop the Mynas gen from power leveling there.

4.) The nerf I refer to: bosses didn't spawn until after a certain number of mobs were killed. This was in response to much pleading by many people (I was only one of them). I am still the fall guy for it, somehow, but I don't mind. If I were the only one who mattered, it's a compliment, even though it's not true.

5.) The one you refer to, Shadow Caves: On the first day (and a half) that Shadow Caves came out, the pink drop rate was insane. I do not know this for a fact since the only group playing it was full, but they said that pinks were dropping at 100%. Some players went nuts accusing the devs of sabotaging the economy because these players had Void, Rift, or Cosmos gear in the CS that was now dropping in value. They called Cinco a "ruiner" and that has become a running joke. Turns out, it was an error in the code. But when they fixed it, they made it so that nobody will ever play Caves again. Cinco has hinted at a level 50 Vyxnaar helm in there, appealing to the greed, but people won't do it even though it would fetch a gazillion smackers.

There may have been other nerfs, but I only started in June, so I wouldn't know about them. They did kinda nerf FH:I-IV when they made them open-world content, but that's never been called a nerf, that I know of.

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Wow, that is a lot of nerfing.

So you were against people rushing to the boss? So the devs changed the game so that you had to kill a certain amount of mobs before you spawn boss? Similar to how the sewers are correct?

Were you against it because of the kicking everyone besides bear situation?

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Originally Posted by MoarPewPew

Well here is what I have to say. Balefort sewers is a interesting campaign. I think that it is a very restricted campaign in terms on how you want to run each level. (the routes you pull mobs)

Also the drop rate of the balefort sewers is so low that it feels like you end up puting in more effort for getting pinks than there really worth.

Since the balefort sewers takes longer to get to a boss, and it has lower drop rates I can see why people may want "a bit of rushing back."

The campaign does not feel very smooth, so this causes an in balance.

That my input.

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It's funny how there is no "boss crawl" for BS. I wonder why not. I sure hope it isn't all this politicking around drop rates and rushing that made them decide not to give us a boss crawl.

Cinco did say he wasn't in favor of the crawl for Swamps, and the crawl for AO1 was made useless by the drop rate nerf, and the crawl for AO2 is the main reason why people got pink-happy, and the crawl for AO3 is where the worst rushing was happening. So, maybe that really is why we don't have a boss crawl in BS.

JustG said yesterday that 1.7.1 will have new content. I am curious what they will add. But it would be too much to hope for a boss crawl for BS.

I have to say one thing about BS that is good, and that is, everyone can play. Nobody gets excluded any more because they aren't a bear or they don't have top gear.

I'm afraid the trolls have soured the devs. I am worried that this is why Cinco doesn't come to chat any more.

So when YOU complain about something (like rushing -- and before even putting proper thought into it, apparently), it's considered constructive feedback.

But when others complain about 100% drop rate, we're trolls?

Ugh I really wish you would have left this topic alone, as I really didn't want to get pulled back into an argument with you.

I'm missing the point I think but which high-leveled campaign map really allows for "rushing" to the boss, besides AOIII: Victory Lap?

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Originally Posted by Physiologic

I'm missing the point I think but which high-leveled campaign map really allows for "rushing" to the boss, besides AOIII: Victory Lap?

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Phys, you may have joined after they nerfed the rush?
For instance, you didn't always have to kill all but 14 aliens in Captive Audience to get to the boss. You could rush through them to get to Tpaxx. It was more dangerous, but faster and took more skill not to die all over the place. The enemies were tougher then, as well.

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Originally Posted by Physiologic

I'm missing the point I think but which high-leveled campaign map really allows for "rushing" to the boss, besides AOIII: Victory Lap?

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All AO2 maps used to be rushed in 5-bear or 4 bear 1 paladin teams back when 45 was the cap. Maps 4, 5 and Plasma Pyramid were particularly popular. Imagine skipping all djins in Chariots and trailing them behind you all the way to the boss and having 6 djins pounding on you while you were killing boss. And this was before the rebalance so we all had half the health we have now (although it's true that level 45 gear also had dodge comparable to current 55 pinks). And no, we didn't use any elixirs. :)

Regarding the boss level, I'm kind of glad there isn't one in BS. Each BS map is interesting in its own way and this way people do them all. What's the point of having several maps that nobody plays except once to unlock the final map, like it used to be with AO3 (and the only reason people also played map 3 there was because of what was probably an error in the VL Tpaxx loot table). At least in AO2 Plasma Pyramid didn't give rares, so people played/rushed all maps.

Lesrider, Snake didn't exactly flame you in your previous posts. Keep it civil please.

Oh I got that part - but I'm asking Snake what map(s) is this thread in reference to, because it seems like he is saying it is now acceptable to "rush" a map when no maps in the Shadow Caves/Balefort Sewers are rushable.

Hmm...it's kinda like Snake was an opposer of Wendy's bacon burger by saying "it's very unhealthy!", but then he changed his mind and said "Wendy's bacon burger is very delicious and awesome!" but only AFTER Wendy's discontinued the item. Therefore I think I missed the entire point of this thread.

Many of us, myself included, said that a 100% pink drop rate didn't seem right. Nobody argued in favor of it. Nobody was called a troll simply for pointing it out. They were called trolls because they went ballistic and were very harsh to everyone, especially the devs. They were called trolls by the devs, and the thread got locked. I don't know why you think I am talking about you.

Our argument is over something else completely, when I asked you why you kept coming here when you had quit the game a month before and all you wanted to do was take the players away from this game to play a different one. And I was uncool in my handling of that, so I am sorry. But that was long ago. Enough. If you don't forgive me, it doesn't change the fact that I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Physiologic

Oh I got that part - but I'm asking Snake what map(s) is this thread in reference to, because it seems like he is saying it is now acceptable to "rush" a map when no maps in the Shadow Caves/Balefort Sewers are rushable.

Hmm...it's kinda like Snake was an opposer of Wendy's bacon burger by saying "it's very unhealthy!", but then he changed his mind and said "Wendy's bacon burger is very delicious and awesome!" but only AFTER Wendy's discontinued the item. Therefore I think missed the entire point of this thread.

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Bingo!

And Range, Snake's called me a troll before for my opinion on the whole caves matter, and since he's talking about the same thing here, and blaming it all on said "trolls," I just put two and two together.

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Originally Posted by Lesrider

Bingo!

And Range, Snake's called me a troll before for my opinion on the whole caves matter, and since he's talking about the same thing here, and blaming it all on said "trolls," I just put two and two together.

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Ok, I'm staying out of this. You two are adults anyway. I'm sure you can handle it much more maturely then I can.

I used to have a hardliner stance that all should be cleared completely, and that it was cheating to rush. So now when we skip Oil Slick, for instance, I'm OK with it. It doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it.

But I wasn't 100% opposed before, either. I used to say it's impolite not to lock if you are going to rush. And I have always said it is unsportsmanlike to rush in a public instance.

So all I'm saying is, the Adrian Monk in me just has to put up with skipping Oil Slick, for instance. I have come to accept the current solution as the most fair for everyone.

I only called Les a troll once, and that was a long time ago, and I apologized. I didn't even know he was a she at the time, or I would have used the kid gloves. I'm sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by Snakespeare

Many of us, myself included, said that a 100% pink drop rate didn't seem right. Nobody argued in favor of it. Nobody was called a troll simply for pointing it out. They were called trolls because they went ballistic and were very harsh to everyone, especially the devs. They were called trolls by the devs, and the thread got locked. I don't know why you think I am talking about you.

Our argument is over something else completely, when I asked you why you kept coming here when you had quit the game a month before and all you wanted to do was take the players away from this game to play a different one. And I was uncool in my handling of that, so I am sorry. But that was long ago. Enough. If you don't forgive me, it doesn't change the fact that I'm sorry.

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For the record, I never quit.

And you also accused me of being greedy, wanting to rip people off with high prices, that I wanted to gouge prices. All because I didn't agree with the 100% drop rates. So don't pretend now that you were against the 100%.

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Originally Posted by Snakespeare

I used to have a hardliner stance that all should be cleared completely, and that it was cheating to rush. So now when we skip Oil Slick, for instance, I'm OK with it. It doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it.

But I wasn't 100% opposed before, either. I used to say it's impolite not to lock if you are going to rush. And I have always said it is unsportsmanlike to rush in a public instance.

So all I'm saying is, the Adrian Monk in me just has to put up with skipping Oil Slick, for instance. I have come to accept the current solution as the most fair for everyone.

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Ah...I see now, skipping the "miniboss room" in BS maps because those minibosses no longer give any useful drops. I'm guessing skipping the toxic archers as well in Roach Motel and the totems that spawn more goblins in Swill Pitz? I think the discrepancy is really the degree of the rush now, because I don't really consider skipping those enemies as "rushing" a map as opposed to rushing huge amounts of mobs in Alien Oasis pre-nerf.

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Originally Posted by Snakespeare

I used to have a hardliner stance that all should be cleared completely, and that it was cheating to rush. So now when we skip Oil Slick, for instance, I'm OK with it. It doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it.

But I wasn't 100% opposed before, either. I used to say it's impolite not to lock if you are going to rush. And I have always said it is unsportsmanlike to rush in a public instance.

So all I'm saying is, the Adrian Monk in me just has to put up with skipping Oil Slick, for instance. I have come to accept the current solution as the most fair for everyone.

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We had way too many arguments where I pointed out that people should be allowed to rush in their own private games, since people can create non-rushing games if you so please. You still insisted rushing was unfair in any form. You also claimed it was unfair to the devs to rush through the game they created instead of savoring it.

It's all nice and dandy you changed your mind now, after the fact. Just don't pretend that anything changed other than your own mind. Bc the game itself did not change enough to affect an opinion on the matter.

Thanks for keeping me as honest as possible and prodding me to be more specific.

I do believe the game did change significantly since I held those opinions. I accept the nerf that happened. It wasn't 100%, as you can see from people still skipping things. So now I will rush where I can, and skip bosses. I think PL is really a fairer game, now. When birds (note that my main is a bird) were not wanted because of the rush, I hated it. If you had a bird, you might know what that feels like.

Les, do you want me to publicly apologize for every word I wrote that fateful morning? I don't remember them all. But I believe you. In fact, I did call you greedy. I also took it back about 20 minutes later. Sorry.*

I made this thread in the hope of mending fences. People change their minds. I have changed mine. I hope everything can be cool now.

* I more than regret that, as it is not for me to judge others on these matters. I don't have ESP. I can't possibly know such motives. So, I was in the wrong.

That's the thing, though. I'm not really sure what you were trying to achieve with this thread. Saying you're ok with it now doesn't mean anything. All it does is get you attention.

To work with Phys's analogy -- you can't protest a Wendy's and then say "oops I really liked that place" after the wrecking ball hits it and it's turned into a Jamba Juice (that's for you, Pharcyde). What did you intend to achieve with this thread? You think now that you approve of the rush, months after you were part of the movement to get rid of it, now the devs will bring it back bc you say it's ok?

And no, I don't need you to apologize for every word you said, because it won't make any difference to me. Try not saying things like that in the first place, like you preach to everyone else.

Hmm..I don't think he wants the devs to bring back "rushable" maps, I think he just wants to state that his stance in the past was too extreme, admits it was a mistake, and apologizes for being a hard-*ss about it in the first place, especially to you Les. No one's perfect and he was man enough to admit it, and a lot of men don't like to admit mistakes, or admit that they are lost when they are driving. At least, before GPS devices for cars were created.