i agree with 1/3/4 but the 2 only for pve right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Befs
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i agree with 1/3/4 but the 2 only for pve right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Befs
It took me a while to understand because this is just a nerf, not a buff at all..
We already have 500 hp then now we will get lower hp, even we make it better it's gonna be about 100 more hp out of 10k hp. I don't see any point of this change.
Many people already suggested good points.
Hp scaled by hp sound fair too me too. But then 1.6% will be little bit too high. (because 15lv can already have 3k hp and then there will be no difference in twinks too. No point to have this change. Should be 0.06 on no charge and 0.12 on charge. Or 0.5/1)
Immune armor reducion is a good idea too for pvp.
But if we are talking about pve, I would rather want to have 50% AOE armor reducion on jugg and 30-35 sec cool down for pve only. And also scaled vg for more dmg and balance.
The problem is that tank dmg is too low to slow down runs. Simply having more hp will not help anything here.
So I would suggest jugg to give hp and armor based on dmg, not armor or hp.
Just let it give pure dmg stat to ho and armor.
100 dmg = 100 hp + 100 armor
1k dmg = 1000 hp + 10000 armor.
And give tanks dmg mythic weapons with fair armor(100-150)
This way, low lvl tanks will not be immortal, and end game tanks will get fair survivability with fair dmg.
Don't be afraid to give tanks little dmg. Even with 1k dmg tanks don't make enough dmg to make the run faster because actual dmg outcome is bugged.
Rogue should have high dmg, crit and Dodge, not hp and armor. But now they do so they don't need tanks.
But tanks still have no dmg and not even fair survivability. In the same way, giving tanks dmg will be standardized classes. No rogues and mages will want to lose their armor and hp. Don't take it from them but give tanks dmg so they can play pve and get some kills in pvp.
Juggernaut is already absurd at lower lvls atleast for pvp. It should be weaker at lower lvls and stronger at higher lvls, hence the scaling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeus
On my old lvl 18 warrior, had 4k health and 800 armor, the rest of my team died and I popped jugg. I literally survived 1v5 for 10 seconds while the rest of my team regrouped and we wiped the enemy after that. And this was before nekro shield.
I agree with the armor reduction immunity tho. I think if jugg is going to give armor or reflect dmg or some of the other things people have proposed, there needs to be seperate buffs for pve and pvp. Juggernaut giving armor and reflecting dmg would be ridiculous in pvp
Bah. I removed the AS comment from my original post too late...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeus
I don't necessarily advocate nerfing AS, more that its mechanics should be put under real scrutiny in relation to class balance and overall game balance. Like Jugg, AS seems like a skill designed for the game in its infancy. Insufficient thought was put into scalability. Part of the problem with AS is that crit is also tied to dexterity which means it's ever-increasing. How close are we to having critical values for engame rogues reach 100% if they haven't already? What's the point of having a critical stat if rogues always crit all of the time? Crit is just one issue though...
I could go on, but I wont because I want to respect the original subject of the thread.
all the feed back are great and all but this still doesn't seem like it's gonna change warrior game play in PVE in any way. warrior players want to be wanted and needed in PVE and farm faster and better, not survivability in PVP. To me PVP is a GIVEN not a MUST HAVE. Everyone want to farm and earn gold faster and get rich to work toward their gears to improve their stats in equipments, such as the glinstone set and enjoy the bonus of it etc etc.
I agreed with Serancha, warrior need to hold aggro better and need something to drastically to make them wanted to speed up the farming process. need more party BUFF stuff with great perks that they are a must have in party.
I'm sure with great skills and perks that come with warrior will also change the whole game play with record and such, which will also be great as the record board will then spread among all 3 classes require to set best time rather then just mainly rogues. it's for the greater good, rather then just PvP changes which is still just a GIVEN to me. it's something one goes in and play pvp when the farming are in a downtime or one just get tired and need a short break from aggressively farming.
just my two cents xD.
Imo, this looks like it's being suggested with one sole purpose - to nerf (ok, "balance") the low level twink tanks. I agree it's ridiculous down there with unkillable tanks and such, especially with some of these new moronic pets like the fake sns, but is this really the main issue with the warrior class at the moment? As proposed, I find this a useless change for endgame tanks in both pvp and pve.
Hmmm i like the idea of make jugg better. I like most of suggestions here.
And of course i have to say my 2 cent hihi
First longer duration or just less CD. Now CD is 45 sec... It's pretty much, and duration? 10-15 sec? I not sure cause it has been months since i don't use my warrior and i miss him:( but not going onto it.
So my suggest is to make cool down similar or same to VB, of/ and similiar duration. It will help tanks to take aggro better and more often with less CD and better duration. As for debuff , I like remove impairing effect i would like to add something like remove debuffs like community said above :D
I don't see how this based on armor could help and in this point i don't like that idea. It should stay like it is now.
Hmmm how about add 10% armor buff for jugg? Well well don't make it too op but it maybe will help endgame warriors in PvP, don't hide it its true that rogue break jugg so fast.
And about pve i would like to see this taunt effect will have better aoe and it will appears more often. Hmmm about this " self heal" i noticed it works sometimes in endgame and yeah its nice, idk how about twinks any tested? If yes then share if it work ;-)
I happy sts will finally do something about warriors! Thanks!
<Forgiveness>
Hi Carapace,
I just want to say THANK YOU for creating this thread, and for the attention you and the team are putting to fix the Juggernaught skill Issue , it is much appreciated and we hope it will have great results.
Also i want to thank you for the quick response in fixing the Glintstone Myth Set Axe Throw Skill Bonus, it was unexpected and was a pleasant surprise.
Sincerly,
Maarkus
hmm cool...
So your basically nerfing jug for all levels. If anything it needs buffed 50% at high level and reduced 50% at low. Maybe reduced cooldown also to make it more helpful. Just my experience.
Wow now they gonna NERF tanks :D Nice reaction STS-style :D
First of all, ty for finally starting a real discussion about this issue!
Now to the point, those chances wont help in anything. If We are talking only about Jugger id say to do this:
-make the CD time faster;
-forget the HP buff upgrade, make it an AOE Armor reduction (at least a but higher than Rogues one, or else no point in this)
-make the taunt intervalo shorter (4s at max....id say 2s if charges)
-make an AOE that would increase ur pt dmg
If the discussion is about all skills id take into considerariam what serancha said about windmill and CS.
Also as twoxc said, this is mainly a PVE game, so lets keep the focus in it
I agree 100% jug should be unbreakable, and cool down is ridiculously long...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariohekmat
Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk
I agree with u, dont get me wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by sellins
I just said that about PVE because i think it will be rly hard to balance both things for warrior, at least at the begining.
That being the case i think first tackle PVE issues, which is the main cause We are having this conversation
Please just lower the cd..cd is killing me more than jugg being broken in a clash
What causes a warrior to be left out of PVE runs is a complex issue to solve but the level of health I would have thought would be one of the last things to be tweaked. Essentially at the moment, there is no class who is able to "hold" aggro for other party members, nor is there any class who can buff party members in any spectacular way. In any given party, a mob will constantly target the player doing him the most damage. This could either be focused on the highest damage dealer in the party, or just swing between all 4 party members if they are all spreading even damage across all mobs. The tank is rarely if ever able to do this job for his party.
Since the tank basically brings nothing particular or uniquely "tanky" to a run.... warriors have essentially been relegated to "a really rubbish dps class," we could think of them, in pve runs, as the equivalent of a badly specced rogue. Giving them more health (even if the values are tweaked) isn't really going to fix this.
In my mind, warriors need a three step program, requiring community feedback after each step:
1. What they need first and foremost is to be given back their ability to taunt the mobs, and hold the aggro for enough time for it to actually make a difference.
This means either totally rethinking the way aggro works in the game, or fixing taunt skills so that they hold the aggro of all mobs taunted for a fixed amount of time (for example... taunt holds aggro of mobs hit by the skill for 10 seconds with a x% chance every second for each mob to lose it's "taunted" status. This could be a static number, or it could be something like a 100% hold for the first 3 seconds, and then have the chance to lose "taunted" status increase every second for the remaining seconds.) Obviously the time frames here would need to be worked out by someone more capable than myself.)
2. Of course, once the taunt issues are fixed the next logical step would be to look at whether warriors currently have enough health to be able to survive holding such large amounts of aggro. At this point, warrior health values and the health granted by skills/upgrades would be tweaked to mould the warrior to be able to withstand (with correct skill management) the respectable amount of dmg they are now theoretically absorbing for their parties.
3. Once warriors can once again taunt mobs and hold the aggro, and can do it without being one hit and dying (not having adequate hp to balance the taunt would negate the whole purpose of taunting), one could look at whether this alone has been enough to get them back on the PVE scene. If it isn't (and likelihood is that it won't) one could look at giving them some party boosters on their upgrades.
This would mean considering options things like the one mentioned here where jugg would cleanse armor debuffs, or something like an X% crit boost for 2-3 seconds in pve only, or a X% increase of primary stat for a 2-3 seconds.
Thanks for posting this.... it means a lot to the community to know this is being looked at :)
[QUOTE=Thundyrz;2319323]Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players
would be stuck having to
make a complex
calculation to determine
the actual benefit to them
personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.
Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I thin
+1 l
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carapace
You r trying to help high lvl warriors by reducing skills power??
c'mon how many of warriors have 3000k+ armor??
most of warriors have 2.5k armor(including pets etc) which means boost will be 250 Hp which is surely lesser then present condition.
pls rethink...
its gonna b completely useless for 98-99% warriors.... yes if u r concerned for remaining 1-2% warriors who has all kinfd f arcane mythic stuffs with nekro etc then this idea rocks !
thanks...
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11...15d9020ced.jpg
Here is the problem, nekro removes 40% incoming damage overall, I think a pet shouldn't be better than an important skill. Here is my advice for this juggernaut issue:
Lv1-15: 500hp, 5% armor boost, and 30% remove incoming damage
Lv16-25: 550hp, 7% armor boost, 30% remove incoming damage
Lv26-35: 600hp, 8% armor boost, 30% remove incoming damage
Lv36-40: 750hp, 12% armor boost, 35% remove incoming damage
Lv41-46: 850hp, 16,5% armor boost, 45% remove incoming damage
It's my solution for this: scale skills.. Jugger makes op twinks, but at endgame it's just useless.. Warriors have 8500-9000hp.. Doesn't matter if there is an extra 500 or not..
Any thoughts?
This idea seems more simpler to do but that maybe too op, maybe half that would work better for example 2500 armor gives 1250 hp ...etc I really like your ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by Metoxx
Comparing to pvp rogue aim shoot still can break through those tons of hp and armor even this way... tbh sts shud find other way to buff warriors because even if jug will have fixed but still 70% of ppl wont replace vb for juggQuote:
Originally Posted by Skvll
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
Imo jugg should be a like how metoxx explained but a little less powerful . And in addition to that.
Possibly combining veng and jugg together as one skill so we can absorb dmg, deal dmg, hold aggro and recover mana in one skill based off our str and armor
I feel it'll give warriors more variety of skill choices for pvp and pve in regards to attack skills. Possibly adding a new skill to choose from for veng being combined for example a skill like.
Deflection
-25s cooldown deflecting 45% of the enemies attacks for 7s
-a chance to stun attacker(s) off of deflected attacks,
- every hit deflected will taunt the enemies/ knock back
- increase duration to 10s
skvll has a good conclusion and thought i like it +1 skvll
I do like the idea of removing all debuff when on Juggernaut imunne to armor reduce etc no breaking in 3-4 sec or less when we have to nekro heal and jug same time to last 4-5 sec it sucks... Also add some deflecting attack hitting a brick wall your fist it should hurt.. that's what a Juggernaut is a moving brick wall with iron and reinforced steel.. You heal first mages knock out your heal no bubble jug first it break heal+jug still weak if no nekro you die just the same so no room for other pets like singe I pay 14mil for that pet I would like to use it too a pve geared rogue or mage could jump into PvP no pvp experience and start farming me. My friend got new mystic set for tank call me to help him gang a rogue without set because he/we tanks are out match by mages and rogues... And this tank in question could hold his own LVL 36...41.. Lvl 41 was hard win like 3 out of 10 but now 46 feel like its open season on tanks and running to survive is only option ); even if max geared run or die or be the scum of AL "tanks gangsters have to gang to survive they weak paper!" Well I tell my friend this person new never seen him before only gang who gang me or if they rude, online bully or trash others best leave map stand as one circle dont move and if he attk he take on both of us not wise to atk a group of people give them all reason to gang you well the rogue was smart :) that makes me happy....... I know to a lot off pve players PvP is a nut house but its a place of quick reflex, strategy, good judgement and team work at time.. Quick assessment of situation is also vital to your survival.. I always enjoy a good fight When skills determine winning.. On tank I'm taking a knife to a gun fight..
Just a -1 from me.
Just a couple of comments I'd like to make:
1) If you are going to base the values of Juggernaut on armor values and you are concerned at all about twink PvP, please fix the Squeakems 'n Squish pet. Currently the description says +100 armor, but the pet itself is giving +250 armor. I don't have this pet on any of my toons, but this is what I have been told. This extra armor value is making warriors almost impossible to kill at lower levels, and if Juggernaut will now be based on armor value as well, this needs to be fixed. I don't have a problem with the bonus being +250 armor at end game, but at lower levels it needs to be less. I think a better solution would be for this pet to give a percentage armor bonus, like perhaps +20% armor. That way it will scale to level better.
2) I never have understood why buffs and debuffs override each other instead of being cumulative. If a buff gives +20% armor and a debuff gives -30% armor, then the end result should be -10% armor. This would make more sense. As the game has progressed over the past 3 years, between elixirs, special gems, pets and passive skills, we have more and more bonuses that are being combined together, and it has been a mess trying to figure out how to make the pieces fit together without one overriding the other and one or more bonuses being wasted. Please just make them add (or subtract) together. Yes, if this is done we may create some imbalance, but then we can make adjustments later on to fix it. At least it will make some sense and will no longer be a big mystery to most players.
Scaling per group of level is what sts has to do at the moment. If juggernaut stays as it is then ofc warriors will stay as dominant class at low level with their solid 500 hp heal. Keep in mind that vengeance heals 450 as well. Beside that there's heal horn for further heal. Basically, warriors can just sit at a cornor healing itself doing nothing at low levels below 10. It is quite pathetic.
However, if we implement this strategy then it might solve those issues:
Level 1-5 Armor 2.5% heal 200
Level 6- 10 Armor 5% heal 250 hp
Level 11-15 Armor 7.5% heal 300hp
Level 16-20 Armor 10% heal 350 hp
Level 21-25 Armor 12.5% heal 400 hp
Level 26-30 Armor 15% heal 450 hp
Level 31-35 Armor 17.5% heal 500 hp
And so on
As jugg is being discussed here I believe that a pve boost on warriors should be put pn another thread. Not here. More taunts on juggernaut will only fix a very small thing which is the warriors being able to actually hold aggro. But the truth is, even if they could hold aggro, most people will still prefer rogue/mage party because its faster that way. We still wont see tanks on the elite pve lb. And while it may be true that not all people would run for lb anyways, everyone likes their runs fast. Just look at the last few threads here about people looking for an arena pt. Its always rogues that they're looking for. And when you go to arena on pug you will usually end up with two or more tanks, and people saying "too many tanks" and ask you to go out. Why cant there be "too many mages" or "too many rogues"? The ideal fix would be as i believe qwas suggested before by Zeus, was a class party bonus where the party has extra buffs when a tank is on the team. Just my 2˘.
Add level requirements for certain Skills Warriors need greater damg or a weapon damage buff.absolutely not cool how much tanks are not needed if certain builds are running a elixer.alienate people that way.imo,take away health boosts from jug and add damage reduction or slight weapon damage skill(.nothing major but enough to make all ends happy.you guys can do it..been loving your work since Mar2011.gl guys.
I'd prefer have the HP boost frankly I'm not comfortable with DMG reduce It would a better suggestion instead of dmg reduce add dodge... But still tanks were build to take hits and if tanks dodge then mage gona get hit they would have lowest at this point so this too is a bad idea.. Obsorb DMG and send it back to attacker is another ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by Killian229
It looks nice, no more inmortals in pvp, but it will get useless for pve, right?
So is sts making jugg more breakable? That's what it seems like so far even though it's supposed to be more
Balanced. But how often do sts really see super low lvls using jugg? As of right now jugg can still break jugg works on a 50% chance to self heal and on a 45 second cd
I'm not complaining about the current jugg skill but if sts is gonna change somethings about jugg (nerf) even though it's not perfect and it still has its flaws that we've accepted . Reduce the cool down atleast. And remove rallying cry and give us something equally useful to warriors . I'm going off topic just to say one more thing. .. Sts get rid of the skills that isn't commonly used and create skills that'll make players feel limitless with skill choices in pvp and pve for all classes. Pvp seems limited to certain skills like, this and that is a must have type of skill to do good in pvp let us help you guys make votes on new skill designs ...idk why bother giving us free respec weekends when we will most likely resort back to our old builds zzzzz. I don't care what the community says about my opinions I'm only concerned with sts devs seeing this.
#SaveJuggernaut
#SaveTanks
Why nerf jugg instead of buff it? Huh.
So many awersome suggestions here about jugg. Hope sts will use some of them
<Forgiveness>
To hold agro in PvE and actually be useful to a pt and get invites to elites this build allows total mob/agro control. Switch from Skysmash to Axe throw on bosses Attachment 143412
And then you go in with the new glintstone weapon and die because you remember you need to use jugg in order to spam health pots and keep losing gold but... yea either way lolQuote:
Originally Posted by JandelMan
Suggestion,
On Juggernaut last skill upgrade,
Taunting nearby foes every 1.5 sec for 15 seconds. When the taunt is over, it explodes ( like glintstone aegis ) taunting nearby enemies and heal the user to full HP. [emoji7]
Yeah this pve build I've used for ages now. It does chew up the pots abit. I used to love jugg for keeping me alive but once your amour and health are high enough it becomes fairly easy to stay alive and tank without it. However I'm running 9k health and close to 3k amour. For lower geared tanks to stay alive jugg is must have.
To hold agro and tank effectively, jugg definitely needs something extra that taunts over time. Some good suggestions above.
I say, give all skills in the games a extra skill point slot so 6/6 in jugg 6/6 vb 6/6 etc etc. Give everyone more options and create greater diversity in builds at 46 everyone has enough points to throw around.
frigging finally thanks for acknowledging the issue and attempting to fix itQuote:
Originally Posted by Carapace
Taunting in this game is utter garbage lol. I mean ive never seen a warrior maintain aggro in Arena. Sure you can taunt but a second later the boss goes off chasing other dpsers. The bosses always goes back and forth between the warrior and other dpsers.
The only skill capable of maintaining aggro is Chest Spliter but the warriors might end up dead because of the melee red zones.
They need to make the taunted mobs permenantly target the warrior for a set duration. Maybe Jugg can do that?
IMO... VB is the best warrior skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by JandelMan