Solution to fix the issue of rogues being OP in PvE

To clarify a bit, here is a summary of what I am complaining about and what I am suggesting:

Yes, these are 2 different complaints I am making, and both of them are somewhat related....

As a mage, I have tons of trouble doing elite dungeons, so much trouble that I have quit doing it.

(And to answer a post above, constantly having to pay plat for a respec is not a solution to anything. I should be able to have a certain build that should be sufficient to participate somewhat successfully in all parts of the game. Yes, having to change gear is acceptable, but having to change my stats and skills, which costs plat, is not an acceptable solution. No single skill should be a requirement for anything in the game. If it is, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the game. Each class has 8 skills, and we are supposed to chose 4 for our character based on our playing preference and style, not based on what is required. Yes, certain builds are better for certain aspects of the game, but no certain build should be a requirement to be able to finish an elite dungeon.)

Second complaint is that as a mage, I am unable to compete on the leaderboards with the other classes, especially on the timed runs leaderboards.

A solution for this issue would be to nerf the elite dungeons. But then it would cause other problems in the game because rogues for example, would have too easy of a time in those dungeons and would farm them to death, resulting in a surplus of elite gear and prices would crash.

So a solution to that problem would be to nerf rogues. But then how do we nerf rogues in PvE without nerfing them in PvP (which I agree is very balanced currently). The answer is potions, since this is the only aspect of our game that appears in PvE but not in PvP.

If the elite dungeons were to be nerfed, and rogues were to be nerfed (by implementing the potion cool down I suggested), then for rogues everything would seem the same, except they would be using fewer potions. It may take them a bit longer to solo an elite dungeon, but they would not die any more often. Yes, this nerfing of the elite dungeons would have to be done very carefully to strike the perfect balance. But it is possible.

Also, I'm not suggesting the health of the enemies in elite dungeons should be nerfed. Only the amount of damage they dish out. This will allow for more survivability, and thus fewer potions would be needed. This would also make mages and warriors a more important component of farming teams since we are the ones who can heal and restore mana. And with this change, maybe a sorcerer could manage to solo an elite dungeon, even if it takes a long time, it would become possible. And most important, I think with this change the fastest teams for timed runs would be the teams that have a mix of all classes, not an all rogue team.

Maybe my 5 seconds cool down is not the right number. Maybe it should be 3 seconds, or 2 seconds even. But having to spam 100 potions in a minute is just crazy, and the fact that rogues can do that and then solo an elite dungeon is just not fair to other classes who cannot do that. Even with the cost of potions considered, it does give them a big farming advantage.

Last thing I'll mention is this change would reduce the cost of running elite dungeons for all classes, as we would all end up using fewer potions, and thus it would become more of a profit making activity to run elite dungeons -- a big complaint I have seen posted in this forum over and over.

What if some players don't care about the potions cost. What if I want to be able to spam 2 pots at a time? What if survivability is more important than anything else? You are having a difficulty achieving the LB coz you aren't finding the right party combination. It has NOTHING to do with how OP rogues are. My mage Unsolved is on 2 elite runs LB, does that mean he is more OP than rogues? Nothing really needs to be nerfed. Just practice more and come up with better strategies. People who make it to the LB are humans too. They just think and play differently.

You don't really have the right to complain about not being able to do timed runs. And you don't really have the right to say I'm wrong. Well you do, but then don't come to me when you go open your eyes and see all the smurfs on lb. how about making some rouge friends and run with them?

And here is a solution:

Nerf rouges Crit dmg. 4k on one mob is stupid. Nerf it to be highest 1,5. I dont think its acceptable in any way that rouges can 1 shot you. Same with PvE bosses. Nerf crit without nerfing dmg. After all, a lucky run is when you crit 3-5k



If you wanted to be on LB tomed runs, you chose the wrong class.
../
Pros and cons. Mob control and support to someone like you, who has blood on his teeth. Yeah right...

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Originally Posted by Soundlesskill

You don't really have the right to complain about not being able to do timed runs. And you don't really have the right to say I'm wrong. Well you do, but then don't come to me when you go open your eyes and see all the smurfs on lb. how about making some rouge friends and run with them?

And here is a solution:

Nerf rouges Crit dmg. 4k on one mob is stupid. Nerf it to be highest 1,5. I dont think its acceptable in any way that rouges can 1 shot you. Same with PvE bosses. Nerf crit without nerfing dmg. After all, a lucky run is when you crit 3-5k



If you wanted to be on LB tomed runs, you chose the wrong class.
../
Pros and cons. Mob control and support to someone like you, who has blood on his teeth. Yeah right...

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You're on the right track, but nerfing rogue's overall crit is not the best solution. I still want my rogues critting frequently and for high damage in my elite runs so we can finish the maps quicker. A better solution would be to give Sorcerers some sort of skill additive that significantly reduces crit chance, say 20-30%. Adding this skill to fireball would make the most sense, since many sorcerers run with that skill in their build. There's a fireball upgrade that reduces hit chance by 25%. Adding the crit reduction to this upgrade seems proper, although I'm sure there's other skill upgrades where you can add this such as within the frostbolt skill tree. Anyway, I'm sure some players reading this are already thinking "Well if I'm hit with a fireball every 5 seconds and my crit is reduced by 20-30%, then I'll have 0% crit the entire fight!" While this is a plausible possibility, keep in mind you still have true aim, Ribbit, other pets with +crit, Misty, and simply dodging the fireball's explosion to counter this. Warriors already have two skills that inflict enfeeble on their target (CS and AT upgrades, which are 3 sec and 7 sec cooldowns respectively) which reduces crit chance to next to nothing, so this idea isn't totally new to what's already on the battlefield. Just like warriors and sorcerers have to, you may find the need to adapt a new strategy to survive.

Does anyone else agree with this idea to help fix Sorcerer vs Rogues in PvP?

EDIT: I also feel that giving Sorcerers this powerful debuff would also help them in PvE greatly. However, STS knows much better than I do the current balance of groups versus mobs/bosses, so with that being said there could be an issue with that which I'm not seeing. I don't think -25% crit from a fireball would make the entire game too easy though.

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Originally Posted by Soundlesskill

If you wanted to be on LB tomed runs, you chose the wrong class.
../

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i dont think so.

Honestly, not all have noticed rogues pve OP. I didn't. I agree if you say they are OP in pvp, but in pve lb is the only place i see them good in pve. Everytime i run tombs, elites with rogues and mages, every pve contest shows to me them mages are better in pve. I ran 4 mage team in elite some times, and it was fast and safe, and with 3 rogues it's no chance. Pretty slow, very unsafe, only boss is killed fast. Sajme thing in tombs. If you look rogue and mage pve lb, you will see mages stronger in pve too.
Sorcs have many stunning aoe skills, good heal. Rogues dont.
In fact I cant understand, why on pve lb there are rogues mostly. Maybe cos they save too many time fighting boss, or maybe there is simply much more good rogues who like timed elite...

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Originally Posted by Taejo

You're on the right track, but nerfing rogue's overall crit is not the best solution. I still want my rogues critting frequently and for high damage in my elite runs so we can finish the maps quicker. A better solution would be to give Sorcerers some sort of skill additive that significantly reduces crit chance, say 20-30%. Adding this skill to fireball would make the most sense, since many sorcerers run with that skill in their build. There's a fireball upgrade that reduces hit chance by 25%. Adding the crit reduction to this upgrade seems proper, although I'm sure there's other skill upgrades where you can add this such as within the frostbolt skill tree. Anyway, I'm sure some players reading this are already thinking "Well if I'm hit with a fireball every 5 seconds and my crit is reduced by 20-30%, then I'll have 0% crit the entire fight!" While this is a plausible possibility, keep in mind you still have true aim, Ribbit, other pets with +crit, Misty, and simply dodging the fireball's explosion to counter this. Warriors already have two skills that inflict enfeeble on their target (CS and AT upgrades, which are 3 sec and 7 sec cooldowns respectively) which reduces crit chance to next to nothing, so this idea isn't totally new to what's already on the battlefield. Just like warriors and sorcerers have to, you may find the need to adapt a new strategy to survive.

Does anyone else agree with this idea to help fix Sorcerer vs Rogues in PvP?

EDIT: I also feel that giving Sorcerers this powerful debuff would also help them in PvE greatly. However, STS knows much better than I do the current balance of groups versus mobs/bosses, so with that being said there could be an issue with that which I'm not seeing. I don't think -25% crit from a fireball would make the entire game too easy though.

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Maybe like 5% crit reduce. Not all rouge decides to cheat ribbit and misty is a plat pet

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Originally Posted by Soundlesskill

Maybe like 5% crit reduce. Not all rouge decides to cheat ribbit and misty is a plat pet

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5%?? No, you're not seeing this from both sides. Take for example my L31 rogue who has Noble gear on. Her base crit is 19.63%, 29.63% with Deadly Focus buff, 30.13% base crit with Horton, 40.13% with Horton + Deadly Focus buff. So even without the best gear and pets, rogues can easily get their crit up to 40%, and maintain it for 90% of the duration of any fight both PvE and PvP. We all know that any Aimed Shot crit on a sorcerer means certain death; and having 4/10 arrows coming at you being crits (in a perfect situation), is just devastating. Granting sorcerers the ability to inflict a crit reduction of ~25% for 2-3 seconds would counterbalance this greatly, and give sorcerers an extra chance to survive while they wait for their shield's cool down. I guarantee you that any good rogue can still beat a sorcerer 1 on 1 without having 40%+ crit.

EDIT: Also, do you realize (as I already mentioned) that the enfeeblement debuff from warriors basically drops your crit down to 0% for 2 seconds anyway? I know not all warriors run PvP with CS or AT in their build, but some do.

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Originally Posted by Soundlesskill

Not all rouge decides to cheat ribbit and misty is a plat pet

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Completely biased and non-comprehensive answer. The reason Ribbit is considered "cheating" at this point, is because he basically grants players a nearly 100% chance to crit their charged attacks when engaging in combat. Let me ask you, will Ribbit still be considered "cheating" when players can use him to effectively counter a sorcerer's -25% crit chance debuff? However, for the sake of this thread, I won't delve much further into the Ribbit issue - there's a separate thread for your opinions on Ribbit's usage in PvP. Although Misty is indeed a plat pet, people still buy her. I don't see any of the folks who open crates for arcane pets or purchased Slag/Ripmaw/Abaddon complaining that PvP is unfair because they had to spend plat for the best pets. The only benefit of the doubt I'll give you in this argument is that Misty is not the greatest pet and has a few issues that deserve to be looked at by Devs to increase her usefulness. But hey, if Misty is what it will take for a rogue to survive in a more balanced PvP environment against sorcerers and warriors, then so be it.

EDIT: Accidentally called Aimed Shot "True Aim". Wrong game...

So I wasn't going to chime in on this thread, but... now I will.

I’m surprised by this thread to be perfectly honest Ener – I really value your opinions and really love seeing your posts. I have to however disagree with you about a number of items.

First off, let me begin by clarifying to ensure I understand your complaint correctly:

1) Rogues are OP because they can survive in Elite, have high armor, and high damage Potions solve the only ‘problem’ they have.
2) Because of this, rogues dominate the LB, thus making it look as though mages are feeble blue weekling smurfs when compared to the other squishy counterparts

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Originally Posted by Energizeric

As a mage, I have tons of trouble doing elite dungeons, so much trouble that I have quit doing it.

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You’re doing it wrong. Trust me.
In my guild mages are a valuable addition to any elite party.
Last night, we ran 5 or 6 runs with a [very new to elite] mage. He was wearing champions armor, had other garbage gear and didn’t understand how to play his class. He died multiple times. Also, we ran twice before I noticed he was wearing his Lep the whole time...
After two minutes of me coaching him, he was rocking and rolling. Dropping his clock at the right time, freezing the right mobs in the right places, using his stuns properly etc…
We had 2 tanks, myself, and this mage. We ran consistent 4 minute LMM runs and after I coached him he mage he didn’t die again.

Of course, this is an easy elite dungeon, but my point is that strategy has as much to do with timed runs as does gear and spec. If not more. In fact – my teams are almost as good as full mythic hook teams… and we don’t have all hook, all arcane pet teams...

Ener – you’re welcome to run with myself or my guild anytime. You helped me out a great deal when I was a member in AF and I still remember you recommending I buy a Kraken skewer that someone had underpriced – I made my first 200k marching on that deal.

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Originally Posted by Energizeric

Second complaint is that as a mage, I am unable to compete on the leaderboards with the other classes, especially on the timed runs leaderboards.

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Our fastest Skull Cove time includes 2 mages. If anyone should be complaining about LB for timed runs, it shouldn’t be mages.

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Originally Posted by Energizeric

Also, I'm not suggesting the health of the enemies in elite dungeons should be nerfed. Only the amount of damage they dish out. This will allow for more survivability, and thus fewer potions would be needed. This would also make mages and warriors a more important component of farming teams since we are the ones who can heal and restore mana. And with this change, maybe a sorcerer could manage to solo an elite dungeon, even if it takes a long time, it would become possible. And most important, I think with this change the fastest teams for timed runs would be the teams that have a mix of all classes, not an all rogue team.

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If you nerfed the amount of damage an elite mob hits for multiple related problems would arise beginning with the following:
This would eliminate the need for a tank for the average party – good player parties already don’t need a tank, don’t make it so that average groups don’t need one also…

You brought up another point about having to have two different specs. I cannot think of ANY game in which a PVE build was or could be the same as a solid PVP build. The fact that STS even permits respeccing is a blessing. Imagine having to roll up a new character if you wanted to choose different skills! OMG… no thanks…
So, you need 5 plat? Do a free offer, or throw the Devs a bone for this awesome game and buy a sack of plat for a few bucks. Seriously $0.99 for 10 plat? So… I can’t agree with you on this.

Each class has their own benefits and weaknesses.

I solo elite maps A LOT.....as in a lot, a lot, and I can tell you that the single greatest drawback of the Rogue in PvE (assuming I'm guzzling mana pots like its dollar draft night) is that I have absolutely no form of crown control. If I have a really large pull, my only tactic in elite maps is to kite and build up the Nox Box. This is a slow process and requires practice - not something that the beginner Rogue would be expected to pull off.

Having a single Sorcerer or Warrior in my party helps immensely with crowd control - leading to faster, more economical runs.

Yes, Rogues hit extremely hard - but that is their greatest attribute. Take away the Rogues ability to inflict massive damage through base DMG, or via Crit just extends the run time in the map, leading to more pot expenditures, more deaths, more pet feedings and fewer runs per reroll elixir. Essentially, a massive nerf in DMG or Crit would mean Warriors would have to spend more time potting and less time shedding aggro from teammates, Sorcerers would have to focus more time on staying alive instead of crowd controlling and Rogues would probably be more of a liability if they cannot dispense of mobs quickly. In a nerfed environment, a team of 4 Sorcerers would probably be the superior group for timed runs since they have the best crowd control ability and the highest DMG in game, coupled with the ability to be superior tanks with the right build (Gale + Shield + STR Gear = Iron Smurf?).

To be honest, I just think of the LB as more of a distraction, and not at all indicative of class positioning. Obviously, if fastest run is the goal, a team with the highest total damage potential will be most effective - but that comes with a price. It's kind of the same reason why a team of just Rogues going against a balanced team in PvP usually gets destroyed; without crowd control, tanking and stuns, all you have is high damage potential, but that often isn't enough to ensure success against warriors who know how to shield and enfeeble, and sorcerers who can keep you perpetually stunned. I would take 2 Warriors + 2 Sorcerers over a team of 4 Rogues any day if I were challenged to develop a zero death toon.

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Originally Posted by GoodSyntax:1240678

Each class has their own benefits and weaknesses.

I solo elite maps A LOT.....as in a lot, a lot, and I can tell you that the single greatest drawback of the Rogue in PvE (assuming I'm guzzling mana pots like its dollar draft night) is that I have absolutely no form of crown control. If I have a really large pull, my only tactic in elite maps is to kite and build up the Nox Box. This is a slow process and requires practice - not something that the beginner Rogue would be expected to pull off.

Having a single Sorcerer or Warrior in my party helps immensely with crowd control - leading to faster, more economical runs.

Yes, Rogues hit extremely hard - but that is their greatest attribute. Take away the Rogues ability to inflict massive damage through base DMG, or via Crit just extends the run time in the map, leading to more pot expenditures, more deaths, more pet feedings and fewer runs per reroll elixir. Essentially, a massive nerf in DMG or Crit would mean Warriors would have to spend more time potting and less time shedding aggro from teammates, Sorcerers would have to focus more time on staying alive instead of crowd controlling and Rogues would probably be more of a liability if they cannot dispense of mobs quickly. In a nerfed environment, a team of 4 Sorcerers would probably be the superior group for timed runs since they have the best crowd control ability and the highest DMG in game, coupled with the ability to be superior tanks with the right build (Gale + Shield + STR Gear = Iron Smurf?).

To be honest, I just think of the LB as more of a distraction, and not at all indicative of class positioning. Obviously, if fastest run is the goal, a team with the highest total damage potential will be most effective - but that comes with a price. It's kind of the same reason why a team of just Rogues going against a balanced team in PvP usually gets destroyed; without crowd control, tanking and stuns, all you have is high damage potential, but that often isn't enough to ensure success against warriors who know how to shield and enfeeble, and sorcerers who can keep you perpetually stunned. I would take 2 Warriors + 2 Sorcerers over a team of 4 Rogues any day if I were challenged to develop a zero death toon.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by GoodSyntax

It's kind of the same reason why a team of just Rogues going against a balanced team in PvP usually gets destroyed;

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Dont need a balanced team, i bet even 5 sorcerer with crappy gear can own 5 fully geared rogue.

True.

The point is that a team of high DMG Rogues are so unbalanced that they will be dominated, because if DMG is all you have, then you are exposing so many weaknesses that even a mediocre opponent can beat you.

Hi Energezic,

I see u posting a lot of feedback on forums, always thought provoking ^^ Aight. I play both mage and rogue. However, in every game I've touched I start with a mage (homeground advantage for me), then move on to a rogue (steeper learning curve for me). However, I've finally come to a point where I can do farming and timed runs as a rogue to some degree of success. So hopefully this odd combo might help provide some insight into some issues u've raised, about rogues from a mage-at-heart's point of view ;)


First thing that's gotta be established is : Timed runs and farming runs are 2 completely different things, even though they count as PVE.

Secondly, I put it to you that it is was not the rogues that needed tweaking, but the PVE map designs that needed tweaking. At the time u raised the issue, for pre-shuyal elite timed runs, it was no longer the case that 4 rogues ruled all. I'd say only abt 6 maps called for warriors. The rest work in an equal team of mages and rogues. See the S4 Leaderboard to get an idea of the class proportion. If u need help ID-ing anyone I can help with that. Farming is a lot more flexible and works on individual team dynamics.

As for elite maps/class distribution, pls allow me to break it down so any less seasoned players that read this can understand too :

Our strength as Mages is in our AOE,
so where there are maps with mobs that can be grouped together, we have the homeground advantage. However,

1 on 1 is Rogue territory.
Everyone knows that Rogues help you down bosses fast, perhaps less understood is how we can help you when it comes to mob manipulation.

Warriors assist us with party survivability.
This means we mages & rogues can operate faster when there's too much aggro/large lures, therefore kill faster.

So this means, a warrior isn't needed on elite maps where mages/rogues don't have a problem surviving. A rogue isn't rly needed if there are no boss kills or more sophisticated luring - for eg wt4 leveling parties. Again, all about map design. But, ALL elite maps from forest to shuyal tower need a mage for max pwnage. :) This would be consistent with what several here have already mentioned - mages are welcome on all elite maps. In-demand, actually. The new shuyal maps may be tougher, but they actually call for a pretty balanced team.

Third, if u don't feel the demand, then something's not quite right. There's 3 things to look at - you may want to consider either :

a) changing the players you choose to complement you/your playstyle (choose your friends), and/or
b) getting help testing your specs and equipment, and fine-tuning your playstyle until you're satisfied. There may have simply been a lack of real opportunity to test with a group u're really comfortable with, or if u have a group of friends you stick with then u could benefit together from the testing and evolve alongside one another. Also,
c) If u dislike something, you make things hard for yourself. In this case, if I may be honest, your dislike for rogues comes out pretty strongly. I understand it hasn't been a bed of roses, but your disliking of it will get in your own way. U can't find a solution to something u're not willing to get to know. My way of overcoming it was to go and play as rogue, challenge all my weaknesses, until I was satisfied.

Fourth, about farming. U know what, I usually get better loot on my mage compared to my rogue, unless I'm not on luck boosts and my party is. I've a theory about this, applied quite successfully to rogue, which I'm happy to share in private. :)

Btw, the part abt Zenlims taking u thru some maps made me smile! :) ik it can be frustrating when the game mechanics don't seem to work in your favour. Come look me up in-game, I'm not the best but I can show u what I mean and we can narrow it down, find solutions around it together and hv a chat abt lb stuff. That failing, it'd at least make for some potentially interesting dialogue! :)

If not, no worries - wish ya all da best! :) O ya last thing. Don't let anyone ruin your fun or get to ya ok. Haters will hate, buddy, I like that u're always forthcoming abt ur opinions and it's brave to go against the flow. But not always the best way. ;) peace.

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Originally Posted by Taejo

5%?? No, you're not seeing this from both sides. Take for example my L31 rogue who has Noble gear on. Her base crit is 19.63%, 29.63% with Deadly Focus buff, 30.13% base crit with Horton, 40.13% with Horton + Deadly Focus buff. So even without the best gear and pets, rogues can easily get their crit up to 40%, and maintain it for 90% of the duration of any fight both PvE and PvP. We all know that any Aimed Shot crit on a sorcerer means certain death; and having 4/10 arrows coming at you being crits (in a perfect situation), is just devastating. Granting sorcerers the ability to inflict a crit reduction of ~25% for 2-3 seconds would counterbalance this greatly, and give sorcerers an extra chance to survive while they wait for their shield's cool down. I guarantee you that any good rogue can still beat a sorcerer 1 on 1 without having 40%+ crit.

Okay, I think you got somwthing here. Mages can crit up to 2k too, its not ONLY rouges, so if our crit is nerfed. Say we use ribbit, its like 90% crit chance. Nerf 25% still massive crit and no fair. BUT, taking a non ribbit user, has maybe 30% crit at current expansion, 25% nerf = 5% crit chance for like 5sec. We's have to at least have a piece of mythics to survive a sorc, because their dmg is great and their crit is sick.

EDIT: Also, do you realize (as I already mentioned) that the enfeeblement debuff from warriors basically drops your crit down to 0% for 2 seconds anyway? I know not all warriors run PvP with CS or AT in their build, but some do.

IMO, the warr is ok to give you 0% crit chance for a while BECAUSE, a warr doesnt have high enough dmg OR the ability to stun luck you while having no crit. You cannot rob crits for rouges

Completely biased and non-comprehensive answer. The reason Ribbit is considered "cheating" at this point, is because he basically grants players a nearly 100% chance to crit their charged attacks when engaging in combat. Let me ask you, will Ribbit still be considered "cheating" when players can use him to effectively counter a sorcerer's -25% crit chance debuff? However, for the sake of this thread, I won't delve much further into the Ribbit issue - there's a separate thread for your opinions on Ribbit's usage in PvP. Although Misty is indeed a plat pet, people still buy her. I don't see any of the folks who open crates for arcane pets or purchased Slag/Ripmaw/Abaddon complaining that PvP is unfair because they had to spend plat for the best pets. The only benefit of the doubt I'll give you in this argument is that Misty is not the greatest pet and has a few issues that deserve to be looked at by Devs to increase her usefulness. But hey, if Misty is what it will take for a rogue to survive in a more balanced PvP environment against sorcerers and warriors, then so be it.

EDIT: Accidentally called Aimed Shot "True Aim". Wrong game...

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Sorry slow reply, I forgot I posted here

Well I guess you need to exit the game, Ener.
I'm not saying your suggestion is really bad but just: Don't change things that already exist here. :)

Basicly, he wants to say: OMG rogue is so OP, I hate them.
Each class has it's own special ability, as TrueOrigin said:

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As for elite maps/class distribution, pls allow me to break it down so any less seasoned players that read this can understand too :
Our strength as Mages is in our AOE,
So where there are maps with mobs that can be grouped together, we have the homeground advantage. However,
1 on 1 is Rogue territory.
Everyone knows that Rogues help you down bosses fast, perhaps less understood is how we can help you when it comes to mob manipulation.
Warriors assist us with party survivability.
This means we mages & rogues can operate faster when there's too much aggro/large lures, therefore kill faster.

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So don't get mad just because you are weaker than them. (I'm not saying you're weak. I respect people but I'm sick from the way you talk)

U think u need to spam pots on sorcerer so much? U kidding bro? Rogue need have like one finger on Hp at all time. Also, u think its easy for rogue to get lb? Sorcerers could do some map easily if they work hard, no die, and do good pulls

Also in pve, sorcerer clock is op. totally kills way more than razor or trap on a rogue. Sorcerers got huge aoe, rogues got aimed shot which hit one mob. I would love to have clock

Here is a fine example of how many pots a rogue spams in a solo elite map, and this is just the boss. Sorry for the bump but just wanted to share Ataris vid with you guys.

http://youtu.be/DitYVsBDB8o

We all spam pots, its no different for mages except that we don't need to spam mana pots. And had I entered that green circle, I would have been insta killed immediately. So when I run around I totally avoid that where as to you it seems to be of no concern.Try using armor around 1000 and see how well you do and then come back and show us the video. Then I'll be impressed.