My modified opinion of "the rush" (long overdue)

You two should just hug it out :D

(ducking for cover)

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Originally Posted by Physiologic

Hmm..I don't think he wants the devs to bring back "rushable" maps, I think he just wants to state that his stance in the past was too extreme, admits it was a mistake, and apologizes for being a hard-*ss about it in the first place, especially to you Les. No one's perfect and he was man enough to admit it, and a lot of men don't like to admit mistakes, or admit that they are lost when they are driving. At least, before GPS devices for cars were created.

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That's my point, though. This isn't going to bring the rush back. His apology or change of opinion doesn't make anything better. What might have made a difference was if he had actually learned a bit more about the rush before dam*ing it to hell. We argued about this so much my head was was spinning. He fought a holy war against the rush, and now says "oops it's not so bad after all."

The reason this is bothering me so much is because ao3 was the campaign that really sucked me into PL to the point I'd be up all night playing. It was the first campaign I bothered to actually make friends, discovered the forums, really learned how to play the game. The rushing actually forced me to learn how to play my characters well and Ricci and I were farming hours on end. We really became pros at it. Then a bunch of people complained about the rush. They didn't like it, so everyone had to suffer. Snake was one of the loudest speakers against it.

Anyway, for whatever reason, the devs finally nerfed the rush (and ao3 along with it). I gradually lost interest in the game, as did several of my farming buddies. I've not been able to get all that excited about the game since (and yes, that's part of the reason I ended up playing other games and praising them). So to hear now from the biggest naysayer, "oh sorry now I'm ok with the rush," just falls flat. It doesn't hold any water in my eyes.

I can see where killing the rush and introducing a grind really pushes people away from the game, and the devs are probably aware of that as well and it was probably talked over for countless hours on their end. Sorry to hear ya lose interest because of that reason :( I know it's a bitter feeling to have.

So, should i get on my high horse again, LOL! and insist on clearing all maps? I admit that my OCD-like inclinations would like that. But I can't. I think it's so much better now. It's fair for everyone this way.

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Originally Posted by Snakespeare

So, should i get on my high horse again, LOL! and insist on clearing all maps? I admit that my OCD-like inclinations would like that. But I can't. I think it's so much better now. It's fair for everyone this way.

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Snake, no one asked your opinion on the matter months after the rush is gone, and likely never coming back. You decided to post a thread about it for who-knows-what reason. The more you write, the more I think you just like to hear (see) yourself talk.
Again, what were you trying to achieve with this? (I don't need an answer, it's a hypothetical question. I don't really expect you to have one since you haven't given one after all this. I'm tired of hearing you repeat yourself.)

Now it sounds like you still can't make up your mind because of your "OCD-like inclination." So how about not giving such strong opinions on something you can't even make up your own mind about? To give another example, you admittedly didn't even step into the Shadow Caves before taking a strong stand on whether or not they should stay the way they were. And making assumptions about people who HAD spent time in there and had valid feedback.

Those of us who were arguing so strongly and passionately FOR the rush were doing so because we thoroughly enjoyed playing the game that way. We weren't taking anything away from others by arguing for it. But you, who obviously didn't even take the time to understand it, fought back just as hard. And for what, to change your mind later? Well I didn't change my mind -- I still miss the old ao3.

LEARN MORE ABOUT SOMETHING BEFORE TAKING IT ON AS YOUR HOLY MISSION!!!!

So, anyway... I argued this topic with many, many people here, not just Les, and I consider it my responsibily to the truth to say that I am now OK with things the way we play, even though in my opinion we still rush too much. I do want to be included in games, even though I am historically on the books for saying that rushing is cheating. I hope my motive is clear. I don't want to be excluded. It's as simple as that.

So finally read the entire thread, and there seems to be some miss-communication going on here. There are three types of games, and lets look at AO3.3 Captive Audience as an example:
1) Full Clear - This equates to killing every mob on the board, including the jailers and the aliens off to the left of when you come in. (Except Prisoners)
2) Partial Clear - This is killing the mobs in your way, and those needed to spawn the boss. This is typically done by skipping the mobs to the left and the Jailers room.
3) True Rush - This involves ignoring ALL mobs and heading straight to T'Pax, killing him then remaking, and T'Pax and perhaps one or two Yellow aliens that got caught in the cross fire are the only ones killed.

Now correct me if I am wrong here Snakes, but it does not sound like you are saying that you agree with the True Rush, but that you have come to accept the partial clear over the full clear. You are not saying that you think it should go BACK to the way it was, but you accept the way it CURRENTLY is and that it should not become MORE restrictive. Is this correct?

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Originally Posted by Moogerfooger

You two should just hug it out :D

(ducking for cover)

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I've tried that. I just end up walking right through people.

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Originally Posted by drewcapu

I've tried that. I just end up walking right through people.

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Apparently the devs are anti-hug. This must change for the good of PL humanity :p

The main thing that I will address is how Snake mentioned things have changed.

The devs nerfed "the rush" because it was all that people ever did, and it was the best thing to do. Note, I loved rushing, and tanking in the "AO2 Bear Golden Age."

Now, there are so many birds and mages who are inexperienced, as well as bears who can't tank, that it isn't the easiest thing to do for most people. However, I think the reason rushing could be re-implemented now is because it's not the best option for most people.

Most people are still in the process of leveling, either to 55 or 56. There's a very small percentage of the total 51-56 population that has the experience and setup to be able to tank a whole level, with those demonic firsthand as well. The thing is, you can't rush with many birds, and without many the boss takes a while. So in the sewers, a "true rush" would be a truly heroic and elite task.

I'm mainly an archer and I'm fine with the "kill-until-boss-spawns" games because it's still super fast with a damage elixir. But now that rushes would be super hard, I would like to see them put back into place. It would keep people interested and bring more ways to play back. :)

no point talking about the rush.it's long gone.

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Originally Posted by Slush

no point talking about the rush.it's long gone.

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We know... sigh. :(

He was pointing out that the way the game has shifted could allow for a shift in opinion and practicality as well.

I can't wait to read this thread when I get home. Anythin started by Snake is always interesting.

I've only read through a bit on phone, and what I can say is,

Clusterstorm makes my bear look like a leech :)

I like the current way its been done. You can still rush recipes and atm the game is in no-way slow paced. The mobs have the perfect amount of hp and boss's are fun. If the rush was brought back, too many people would be attempting it and that would ruin games, as the game in it's current state is too hard to rush unless your all str classs. Thus bringing back that era Of booting everything but a pally and bears. Not cool IMO.

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Originally Posted by Necrobane

I like the current way its been done. You can still rush recipes and atm the game is in no-way slow paced. The mobs have the perfect amount of hp and boss's are fun. If the rush was brought back, too many people would be attempting it and that would ruin games, as the game in it's current state is too hard to rush unless your all str classs. Thus bringing back that era Of booting everything but a pally and bears. Not cool IMO.

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you cant rush minibosses for recipes, they patched it so minibosses dont drop them anymore

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Originally Posted by FluffNStuff

So finally read the entire thread, and there seems to be some miss-communication going on here. There are three types of games, and lets look at AO3.3 Captive Audience as an example:
1) Full Clear - This equates to killing every mob on the board, including the jailers and the aliens off to the left of when you come in. (Except Prisoners)
2) Partial Clear - This is killing the mobs in your way, and those needed to spawn the boss. This is typically done by skipping the mobs to the left and the Jailers room.
3) True Rush - This involves ignoring ALL mobs and heading straight to T'Pax, killing him then remaking, and T'Pax and perhaps one or two Yellow aliens that got caught in the cross fire are the only ones killed.

Now correct me if I am wrong here Snakes, but it does not sound like you are saying that you agree with the True Rush, but that you have come to accept the partial clear over the full clear. You are not saying that you think it should go BACK to the way it was, but you accept the way it CURRENTLY is and that it should not become MORE restrictive. Is this correct?

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Fluff, most of his post is about how it's ok to do it in your own private game. That was our biggest argument waaaaaay back when -- people should be allowed to play as they wish in their own hosted games. It's those who felt otherwise that fought the rush. So I don't see how that can be his big excuse for changing his mind.

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Originally Posted by Ellyidol

Clusterstorm makes my bear look like a leech :)

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Lol Elly - you're just being nice. :) I'm always glad to have you in my groups.

But it's funny, I actually started asking bears I don't know to leave when I'm running Catacombs. Snakespeare will be really pleased to hear this, I'm sure - payback time for all those AO2 bears only groups. ;) You should see their reactions when they join and I say, "Sorry no bears."

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Originally Posted by Kalielle

Lol Elly - you're just being nice. :) I'm always glad to have you in my groups.

But it's funny, I actually started asking bears I don't know to leave when I'm running Catacombs. Snakespeare will be really pleased to hear this, I'm sure - payback time for all those AO2 bears only groups. ;) You should see their reactions when they join and I say, "Sorry no bears."

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Nope, I remember the runs with you. I just wanted to get my bird since my bear wasn't doing anything :P

The MOST I could do was Beckon every other bunch of mobs. :P

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Originally Posted by Snakespeare

There were several different nerfs over time. I am referring to the one in which they modified every basic map from Swamp upward so that the boss doesn't spawn until you clear enough mobs. This was in response to the anti-rush campaign for which I will gladly take all the heat even though it was not my idea and I was only one of many players who wanted it. I have come to the position where I accept that this solution is the best solution, so that is why I have adjusted my official stance.

The other nerfs were:

1.) AO1 had the drop rate of pinks squeezed down so far that it hardly ever happens in that campaign any more. This was the first reaction to the rush causing a surfeit of pinks. The map that was used for rushing was AO1:V, and that was removed from the game until it changed.

2.) Swamps (before Lake Louis and the Scalefield/McCroc addition) were nerfed to make the crocs easier to beat. This was because people were skipping Swamps to go directly to AO1 and AO2 since the mobs in AO2:III were very easy to grind XP on (the Mynas Generation).

3.) AO2:III was nerfed by adding Lesser D'Jinn mini-bosses at many intersections. This was done after much pleading by older players to stop the Mynas gen from power leveling there.

4.) The nerf I refer to: bosses didn't spawn until after a certain number of mobs were killed. This was in response to much pleading by many people (I was only one of them). I am still the fall guy for it, somehow, but I don't mind. If I were the only one who mattered, it's a compliment, even though it's not true.

5.) The one you refer to, Shadow Caves: On the first day (and a half) that Shadow Caves came out, the pink drop rate was insane. I do not know this for a fact since the only group playing it was full, but they said that pinks were dropping at 100%. Some players went nuts accusing the devs of sabotaging the economy because these players had Void, Rift, or Cosmos gear in the CS that was now dropping in value. They called Cinco a "ruiner" and that has become a running joke. Turns out, it was an error in the code. But when they fixed it, they made it so that nobody will ever play Caves again. Cinco has hinted at a level 50 Vyxnaar helm in there, appealing to the greed, but people won't do it even though it would fetch a gazillion smackers.

There may have been other nerfs, but I only started in June, so I wouldn't know about them. They did kinda nerf FH:I-IV when they made them open-world content, but that's never been called a nerf, that I know of.

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Oh that's right:

6.) Mini-bosses in BS stopped dropping recipes. Reason? People were rushing mini-bosses for recipes. I was unaware of this since I was doing semi-afk farming in FH for recipes, and lost the first two weeks of time in BS.

So it's pretty clear that most of the nerfing is to close loopholes that people find to shortcut the drop system by rushing. And I'm sure it has very little to do with any single person's opinions.

Kalielle, I hope I do get to run with Clusterstorm someday. That sounds like fun! :)