Poll - Increased Survival / Increased Damage for "Razor Shield" w L80 Perks

@Cinco is it possible to leave the movement speed of 15% as it is in the Rogue kit by implementing it to Whirling Razors which currently increases dodge by 20%. Rogues will never be needing that extra dodge whatsoever having a invulnerability period of 3 seconds right?

Then perhaps we can implement the Shielding and Damage increase in this way:

For the shielding : Spinning Freedom can have 2 splits (Banking Blades) and (Blade Barrier).
Blade Barrier being the 2-3 sec invulnerability.

To implement the AOE increase and damage increase we can change Bleeding Cuts to "Charged Razor Shield surrounds you with a larger radius of Whirling Knives"

Then for the Bleeding Cuts 2 splits (Sharpened Barbs) and (Furious Rage).

Sharpened Barbs as a 100% bleed instead of 50% (DOT damage similar to Fire Ball Time Shift)
Furious Rage as a damage increase on the blades with a good amount of damage on contact with targets.


Or leave Sharpened Blades as it is with 50% and change Blunted Barbs to Furious Rage. However imo, 100% bleed will be a extremely nice touch to the clear, as we can run around carrying a DOT similiar to a Fireball in theory.

That's gotta be a great change for rogue. As for the damage it's better if you give the damage on Rogue but not on the Razor Shield skill. But either way, invulnerability is the most important here so +1 for the invulnerability,

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Originally Posted by Tzuki

That's gotta be a great change for rogue. As for the damage it's better if you give the damage on Rogue but not on the Razor Shield skill. But either way, invulnerability is the most important here so +1 for the invulnerability,

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True, but we got to work with what we have here. Since Cinco and the dev team are looking for feedback into shaping up the Rogue skill tree to assist with the clear, us players might as well make it worth while and propose suggestions which actually will help with implementing stuff, this in turn will effect Rogue clear and damage in my opinion.

The shielding is sorted I think every one likes it. So only thing to deal with is the damage implementation.

I see the Sharpened Blades having good potential to help with clear, if its a 100% bleed on contact (with the AOE increase) and if bleed scales nicely like the Mage Fire Ball or tower.

Or, we got Furious Rage as the other optional tool we can choose to help clean mobs overall when running past mobs with procs. However for Furious Rage to work right, the AOE increase is a thing which needs fixing. Right now the blades seem extremely bugged. Sometimes i run past mobs and nothing seems to even happen. They need to fix the range and interaction of the skill when it contacts mobs, making the damage tics hit harder and quicker for Furious Rage.

maybe reduce invulnerability of war heal its currently 6seconds -> to around 4 seconds
and mage shield gives around 4 seconds -> 3 seconds
and with this update rog would have 2 seconds atleast

There is no need to nerf any other class to buff Rogue. Warriors get a total of 4.5 seconds invulnerability. Mage has 3.5 seconds. Its fair for Rogue to have 3 seconds on charge use.

Me personally i always like to charge use RS. So whether its 2 sec on instant use or 3 second on charge use is totally up to the developers. All that matters is Rogue having a shield in their kit. If any one has a issue with 2 seconds of invulnerability on instant use please comment. All good. Let the devs know your thoughts.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Read

There is no need to nerf any other class to buff Rogue. Warriors get a total of 4.5 seconds invulnerability. Mage has 3.5 seconds. Its fair for Rogue to have 3 seconds on charge use.

Me personally i always like to charge use RS. So whether its 2 sec on instant use or 3 second on charge use is totally up to the developers. All that matters is Rogue having a shield in their kit. If any one has a issue with 2 seconds of invulnerability on instant use please comment. All good. Let the devs know your thoughts.

Thanks.

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Warriors have a cheat code rn 4.5 sec invulnerable along with max haste is nearly infinite shield don’t forget pets like glow being used right after invulnerability shield along with they high health which is their role so not holding that against warrior mains , as a rogue main this would help and as far as solo runs go for this upcoming event it would be useful to have this survivability as well like the other classes


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Yeah but bro, aren't we being over zealous and asking for too much here if we ask for a reduction for other classes? Warrior having high health and defense and overall survivability sounds perfectly fine right? Considering it's class and perks and so on. I don't think Rogues can ever match that kind of survivability , Jugg, Horn and high base Hp/ Armour.

I feel like we should try and look to improve the stuff Mr. Cinco has put forth. Asking for too much will back fire badly bro xD. I understand what you are trying to say however. What do you think about this?

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Originally Posted by Read

Yeah but bro, aren't we being over zealous and asking for too much here if we ask for a reduction for other classes? Warrior having high health and defense and overall survivability sounds perfectly fine right? Considering it's class and perks and so on. I don't think Rogues can ever match that kind of survivability , Jugg, Horn and high base Hp/ Armour.

I feel like we should try and look to improve the stuff Mr. Cinco has put forth. Asking for too much will back fire badly bro xD. I understand what you are trying to say however. What do you think about this?

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Oh nah bro debuffing others classes should have never came up in the first place I agree, rogues just need some love in this situation, the other classes perfectly fine but it needs to be alittle generous on the duration of this shield so each class can still be somewhat on par with each other I still don’t think this will make rouges as good as yall classes since we all do heavy damage now due to procs it took down the main purpose of rogue , just improvise the rogue


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Yeah, for the class to be viable in runs in comparison to other 2, the damage aspect with AOE needs to be very good. That's where Furious Rage and the AOE increase and bleed implementations comes in, hopefully they add these. We can expect future gear to assist us with clear too hopefully, things like this Blood Arti are very helpful reviving a dead class.

The shielding aspect should be fine. Since LB Temple for example has its own class groups to compete in yeah? If I'm not mistaken? This eliminates the need to compete with the other 2 classes in terms of survivability and points on LB.

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Originally Posted by Read

Yeah, for the class to be viable in runs in comparison to other 2, the damage aspect with AOE needs to be very good. That's where Furious Rage and the AOE increase and bleed implementations comes in, hopefully they add these. We can expect future gear to assist us with clear too hopefully, things like this Blood Arti are very helpful reviving a dead class.

The shielding aspect should be fine. Since LB Temple for example has its own class groups to compete in yeah? If I'm not mistaken? This eliminates the need to compete with the other 2 classes in terms of survivability and points on LB.

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Ahh you may be right I forgot how the temple lb works I never ran it before cuz I didn’t have the gears to do so forgot solo probably competes with its own class


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Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

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Also for mage most of skills are useless. Only fireball and shield has and effect, rest of them kinda useless.

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Originally Posted by Lazzer

@Cinco is it possible to leave the movement speed of 15% as it is in the Rogue kit by implementing it to Whirling Razors which currently increases dodge by 20%. Rogues will never be needing that extra dodge whatsoever having a invulnerability period of 3 seconds right?

Then perhaps we can implement the Shielding and Damage increase in this way:

For the shielding : Spinning Freedom can have 2 splits (Banking Blades) and (Blade Barrier).
Blade Barrier being the 2-3 sec invulnerability.

To implement the AOE increase and damage increase we can change Bleeding Cuts to "Charged Razor Shield surrounds you with a larger radius of Whirling Knives"

Then for the Bleeding Cuts 2 splits (Sharpened Barbs) and (Furious Rage).

Sharpened Barbs as a 100% bleed instead of 50% (DOT damage similar to Fire Ball Time Shift)
Furious Rage as a damage increase on the blades with a good amount of damage on contact with targets.


Or leave Sharpened Blades as it is with 50% and change Blunted Barbs to Furious Rage. However imo, 100% bleed will be a extremely nice touch to the clear, as we can run around carrying a DOT similiar to a Fireball in theory.

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@Cinco Would all this work? I think it will take a little longer to fully implement the damage and shielding aspect of it. But it seems very doable without impacting any core aspect of the class yeah? Having a 100% proc DOT through bleed sounds fantastic yah? Running through mobs to proc and scaling its damage with our buffs through gear similar to mage DOT.

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

Sounds like we are all happy with the survival proposal but not the damage proposal.

So I think the smart thing would be to move forward (internally) with the survival stuff so we can have something ready soon.

Great points about the damage proposal have been raised such as: Razor Shield would need to do massive damage for anyone to notice, cranking up Razor Shield damage would have a ripple effect through other Rogue skills (potentially affecting skills that nobody wants to alter), the vast majority of damage output is coming from procs that will be unaffected by any of the skill changes, replacing the +15% ms would be very unpopular, other mechanics of Razor Shield may be more appropriate to revise (i.e. the bleed chance, bleed amount), so on and so forth. We will hold on the damage stuff for now.


Poll continues for a couple days but I think we've got the gist at this point.

Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on this and I'll keep reading and reviewing.


Best wishes!

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For Furious Rage to be effective it needs to deal damage like a tuned down version of the blood artifact with the same AOE radius or a bigger radius. This would do justice to the Rogue clear for sure, however, you might need to test it before release, making the scaling very good but not broken. In doing this, players have a choice between 100% bleed proc as Sharpened Barbs or high damage through Furious Rage.

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Originally Posted by Ooozer

Also for mage most of skills are useless. Only fireball and shield has and effect, rest of them kinda useless.

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You can do tons of AOE and plays with Time Shift as well, Indigo specially, if you don't have blood arti. Not forgetting curse too. Indigo with full sb and kraken staff proc can clear l1 l2 and start of l3 if done right with ms% awakens. Preferably with Orb.

Anything that keeps me from dying every 3 steps into a map.

I don't think there needs to be a trade off. Give the rogues a shield and more damage. I don't see a problem with rogues doing insane damage. They should be out classing wars and mages in damage. By a lot.

Disagree with the 2 seconds if not charged. Both mage and war need to charge their skill for invulnerability.

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Originally Posted by capeo

I don't think there needs to be a trade off. Give the rogues a shield and more damage. I don't see a problem with rogues doing insane damage. They should be out classing wars and mages in damage. By a lot.

Disagree with the 2 seconds if not charged. Both mage and war need to charge their skill for invulnerability.

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Agreed with the charging. The damage implementation would be very good to help with clearing maps. Right now devs seem to be focusing on the survivability aspect of the class over the betterment of the clearing of maps. I guess it is a good start. Hopefully the damage implementation can be done in the near future as well.

Also for everyone who voted no on a damage increase and yes for shielding, where is the reason or suggested alternative for saying no? It's hard to proceed on a plan if there is no feedback as to why yes or why no.

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Happy New Year, Legends...

I've seen some very good constructive suggestions to make the Rogue more survivable and wanted to run this by the forums to see what others think.

The following proposals involve substituting new Perks for two of the currently existing Perks for Razor Shield at Level 80.

Survival Proposition: replace "Banking Blades" perk (25% chance to reflect 10% incoming damage) with "Blade Barrier" which grants 2 sec. invulnerability when Razor Shield is cast.
We are also considering an increased duration for this invulnerability effect with Charged Razor Shield but we have not made a final decision on that (as of yet).

Damage Proposition: replace "Frictionless Fury" perk (speed boost) with "Furious Rage" which increases the damage dealt by Razor Shield by ~50% (final figure TBD but in this ballpark).
We are also considering an increased damage boost for Charged Razor Shield but, like with the aforementioned perk, haven't made a final call on it.


Thoughts?

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As I could understand, this topic caused by some complains about rogue's 'cleaning speed', so I don't see how 2-3seconds of immortality would help it, damage of razor is a joke also, you can increase razor damage by 1000% and will change nothing.

I'll bring some suggestions/thoughts/complains what would improve rogue's cleaning speed and survivable on rogue:

1) cleaning speed (mobs): only 2 things which matter for it: 1) HOW FAST rogue can activate core procs (weapon, armor, artifact, if its about 86 arcanes) and 2) what rogue will do after procs got activated.

-What can be improved in razor shield about activating procs faster: make bigger area of this skill, make it hit faster, it can deal 1 damage per tick, but make it damaging enemies for example 4 times (or more) per second and in bigger area, chance to bleed currently 25% (50 with perk), can be improved to 50/100%.
(What could be improved in other skills: some perk of normal shadow piercer multiple damage could deal like 10 hits instead current 5, and with increased speed ofc... Just compare count of hits to other classes before getting proc of weapon: warrior axe mastery 1 point = fast 10 hits on single target + warrior's windmill is like 5 hits on cast (if 5 enemies around) and repeating it for several times. Mage just use uncharged fireball and get all procs easily, but mage has also other skills to get procs... Rogue lacking hits to activate procs fast...charging noxious bolt which hits just 1 enemy on impact and then some slow dot isn't best thing to do)
In general, I think it would be nice to get current procs activated by any 1st hit with 100% chance on all classes (if they arent on cooldown) instead talking about what rogue lacking etc..., atleast 81 arc weapons (bcs still no new weapon), 86 arc helm/armor/artifact. Kraken daggers require 15 hits to get guaranteed proc, so using normal piercer (6 hits) + charged shadow storm shot not even guarantees to get daggers proc cuz sss not always has a lot targers to hit (talking about 5 mobs in start of indigo map as example), 2 other classes easily get proc of weapon on those mobs. Trying using charged nox bolt which won't even hit few targets on impact is waste time x2 (charging + waiting when poison starts damage)

-What classes do on mobs part after core procs got activated:
Mage kraken staff grants like 500% stacking dmg, multiplied by arcane armor by x3, so its minimum 1500% damage he get on rusk gun attacks, which are affected by %haste. mage can even run with aquaris staff.
Warrior class - no need describe I hope?...
Rogue? Has Rusk bow with 3 targets only in front of rogue, bows attacks are not affected by %haste, so this bow isn't useful at all, just for damage stat, and it push enemies? lol... also kraken daggers proc grants only 100-150% stacking damage (compare it to 500% from krak staff...), rogue has only shadow shorm shot to use after procs activated, but its so long cooldown (compared to mage's fireball) and normal piercer to kill some single mobs or to get closer to mob and kill by kraken dagg/new arti proc, everything else useless, its all about daggers + arti proc.

I would also suggest to bring something like rusk daggers which will PULL enemies in big area like rusk sword doing by regular attacks and without cooldown. (Warriors might get op rusk aegis which will PUSH 3 enemies away and without affected by %haste, just to feel their current 'balance' :D )

2) Talk about survival abilities on rogue:
Razor mastery 10% STACKING damage reduce?
Reality of this mastery: pet with 25% stacking damage reduce in HB + any buff like star beast set proc (60% stacking dmg reduce) or mephisto (50% stacking dmg reduce), or kraken daggers (50% stacking dmg reduce), and there a lot more sources of it, already putting %damage reduce over cap (70%), so 10% stacking dmg reduce from razor gives only 1,1% in fact (instead 10%)... and for this we spend 10 points?
Make it 50% NON STACKING damage reduce on 10/10 razor mastery, warrior has 60/40% non stacking damage reduce on juggernaut with few points, mage has similar on shield (for those who are clueless about stacking/nonstacking %dmgReduce, try learn more and make some math, before you put comments like 'nonstacking dmg reduce is useless' etc). So it would be good to have on rogue too... but again, it has nothing to do with cleaning speed in my opinion. If rogue dies before procs got activated, I'm so sorry about it lol.

If anyone cares about pvp and balancing classes for pvp there: remove all procs, adjust damage of skills, done. If you don't agree with it for some reason, i'll bring few facts: 1) ATM pvp is more "active" at lvls below 76 (where procs aren't crazy; look all 81 gears are cheap but there 0 pvp, guess why) 2) pvp was more active in general before 81 expansion, think about it too. Also, I'm not suggesting removing awakes and pets from pvp, so it would be still based on player's invests. For those who 'care' about sts money from pvp - they already aren't getting it. And if awakes will still work in pvp, it would bring sts some money; also arcane gears has much better stats still; I'm not suggesting another honor pvp.
Announced by sts 2-3 seconds of immortality on razor in pvp case will only make rogue survive 5 seconds instead 3 (2-3sec + 2 seconds of glowstik aa) then result same, it will be helpful against mages sure, against warriors not much, also playing rogue vs rogue would become so bad for me, immortality on razor in rog vs rog will be more like game who has better ping... Well, I didn't pvp since 81 expansion (kraken amulet...), just few duels against sb chainsword (trying all possbible setups on rogue), was enough to understand that pvp is not good for rogues at all atm.

Also, in my opinion (if sts really want improve rogue), it would be more wise to ask actual good rogues who proved their skill/knowledge on this class (for example some timed runners, I mean normal timed runners, not pinata LBs like orrick lol; or ask some temple top10-20 rogues, or some chosen by other factors good rogues, and hope that factor will not be 'who bought more plat'). There's no point ask some clueless random warriors about rogue/razor, warriors who only coming here with hate about rogues and can't even learn their own class. There's also no point asking some cheap or new rogues about their survivable, which are complaining about dying while running with low armor/hp ms sets at endgame maps ("op" ms nox set, "op" holley set, "op" zaarus set or even lower and then "we need immortality").

Somebody mentioned current 'balance' and brought up cursed woods - giants as example. I finished it on 3 classes without elemental sets (before new arcanes got released):
mobs part was similar for all classes (warrior ofc a bit better cuz has pull).
boss part:
-on warrior I finished it with 3k str + krakens + sb set + 'nerfed' neptaris.
-on mage I finished it having 3.3k int (krakens + sb set + rusk gun).
-on rogue I had to get 4k dex (rusk bow + krakens + sb set, same items as mage, just better jewels/awakes) but with 3.8k dex I couldn't do it (rogue is my main class for many years).
Rogue was the most uncomfortable and slowest class to do that boss because: warrior can pull boss by axe to avoid debuffing explodes, mage has ranged skill + attacks (lightning, curse, rusk gun attacks), rogue had to follow boss (rogues damage deals is aimed + piercer, all other skills not damaging, rogue is not range class at all, as somebody mentioned haha), so had to control where boss goes by running away if boss goes to corners, couldn't fight there because boss will stack explosions there and rip.
If we would talk about including here elemental sets - it would only disadvantage rogue even more, since those sets are dealing same damage on all classes and affected only by %damage %bd (%ed not working in woods) and %crit dmg. So, rogue has the lowest %damage from weapons procs (don't tell to proc pisces lol, is impossible), means lowest damage from elemental set procs. Still want to talk about balance?




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^ Yep. It's a bit much, but it comes down to the fact that rogue is the underperforming class in many aspects. This invulnerability change and the potential other change are small steps in the right direction.