Requesting the return of PvP Updates: Proposed Balance Changes (7/21/16)

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Originally Posted by intrepd

Before the global nerf wasn't the damage like , example a rogue hit a mage with shield 1k but its reduced to lets say 450 since its 55% Reduce? Now its reduced by another 50 after the global nerf so its 225 which means that its a buff for mages no? Please correct me if im wrong

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Read the post I borrowed from Vroom. It was a buff.

I think the mage community has been tanky for so long that they have forgotten how to play their class in ways that don't include using tankiness.

I'll state this once again, mages aren't tanks.

Tanky rogues got an armor reduction, why should tanky mages be spared?

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

The developers have stated the rogue class will remain glass. I see no reason to invest my time there.

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I said write a thread on how they can "improve the faults" not how to make them mages.


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Originally Posted by avikk

Have you ever played a mage?


Mages really aren't all that tanky as you pan them out to be...

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Let me add some mage stats:
*6,400 health
*1,900 armor
*1,300 damage
*Instant full health heal + significant dot heal for a few seconds.
*Ability to rotate between a 70% damage reduction shield and a 40% damage reduction shield at will.
*2 seconds of invulnerability.

A shield with a 15 second duration and 27 seconds cooldown means a 12 second downtime which a 8 second nekro shield kindly reduces to a 4 second downtime. 4 seconds of no shields is compensated by a heal that almost acts as an extra shield.

Juggernaut is incomparable due to its 15 seconds duration and 40 second cooldown (with the mastery). That's a 25 downtime. What do we rotate here and for 25 seconds? We don't, we just die after those 15 seconds.

Mages appear to be much too tanky in terms of a dps or support class.

Warriors are tanks.

Rogues are dps.

What is the purpose of the mage class exactly? To be warriors with more damage?

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

Read the post I borrowed from Vroom. It was a buff.

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yes i get it, if there was no global nerf then rogues would hit shield lets say 450 out of 1000 because of shield absorb but now with the nerf it does around 225, i agree with you that mages shield is too much since the global nerf but i don't think this will make everyone happy, what i think would help is giving rogues a little damage reduction, lets say 25% damage reduction in Razors? i know that they should be cannon but too much cannon gonna break the glass. anyways there is already 10% in razors so why not just make it 25% to stop the buff/nerf threads?
please tell me how this idea will ruin the "Rock paper scissors" which is happening right now as i dont see anything wrong with it, but using razors in clashes instead of nox will mean rogues will hit less by survive a bit more, and in vs its going to be the same since i doubt rogues will replace nox with razors.

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Originally Posted by intrepd

yes i get it, if there was no global nerf then rogues would hit shield lets say 450 out of 1000 because of shield absorb but now with the nerf it does around 225, i agree with you that mages shield is too much since the global nerf but i don't think this will make everyone happy, what i think would help is giving rogues a little damage reduction, lets say 25% damage reduction in Razors? i know that they should be cannon but too much cannon gonna break the glass. anyways there is already 10% in razors so why not just make it 25% to stop the buff/nerf threads?
please tell me how this idea will ruin the "Rock paper scissors" which is happening right now as i dont see anything wrong with it, but using razors in clashes instead of nox will mean rogues will hit less by survive a bit more, and in vs its going to be the same since i doubt rogues will replace nox with razors.

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Sadly, you can't please everyone when working in the name of balance.

You may look back at all the cases I highlighted earlier of the warrior and rogue class being nerfed in the name of balance. We moved on. Why should the mage class be spared?

I think its time we stop shelving and dodging issues concerning the mage class.

Such issues concerning rogues and warriors were never shelved or dodged. They were acted on quickly and in most cases without a discussion.

We all buy platinum and contribute to the game. Why should the mage class (only 1 of all 3 class) specifically be spared of any changes to bring balance?

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

Sadly, you can't please everyone when working in the name of balance.

You may look back at all the cases I highlighted earlier of the warrior and rogue class being nerfed in the name of balance. We moved on. Why should the mage class be spared?

I think its time we stop shelving and dodging issues concerning the mage class.

Such issues concerning rogues and warriors were never shelved or dodged. They were acted on quickly and in most cases without a discussion.

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i get you, its true that mages does need a armor reduction shield to be halved, but i doubt this will even happen, instead i suggest just buffing rogues? but i personally think that even buffing rogues will make them useable in clashes but not any better than stacking mages, stacking mages.
better leave the decision to STS im fine with either buffing rogues or nerfing shield.

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Originally Posted by intrepd

i get you, its true that mages does need a armor reduction shield to be halved, but i doubt this will even happen, instead i suggest just buffing rogues? but i personally think that even buffing rogues will make them useable in clashes but not any better than stacking mages, stacking mages.
better leave the decision to STS im fine with either buffing rogues or nerfing shield.

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The arcane shields damage reduction is a issue identified by the developers. They had their reasons for bringing it up and explained their reasoning very well and accurately. Their reasons were valid and should have been acted upon.

Thank you for your understanding btw.

You breakingbad,

Maybe it seems like you are getting rekt by mages in vs. Don't forget about rock scissor paper thing. And plz don't assume that mage are tanks. Assumption and reality is two different things.

And for whole community,

ROGUES DAMAGE GOT BUFFED COMPARED TO WARRIOR AND MAGES AFTER GLOBAL NERF. AS ROGUES WERE NERFED BY 10% DMG AND FURTHER RESTRICTION OF GETTING HAPPINESS DAMAGE BONUS OF PET BEFORE GLOBAL NERF IN PVP. NOW ROGUES ARE GETTING 25% MORE DAMAGE IF THEY USE NEKRO HAPPINESS.

and these NERF threads should be stopped. It's annoying.

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Originally Posted by yubaraj

You breakingbad,

Maybe it seems like you are getting rekt by mages in vs. Don't forget about rock scissor paper thing. And plz don't assume that mage are tanks. Assumption and reality is two different things.

And for whole community,

ROGUES DAMAGE GOT BUFFED COMPARED TO WARRIOR AND MAGES AFTER GLOBAL NERF. AS ROGUES WERE NERFED BY 10% DMG AND FURTHER RESTRICTION OF GETTING HAPPINESS DAMAGE BONUS OF PET BEFORE GLOBAL NERF IN PVP. NOW ROGUES ARE GETTING 25% MORE DAMAGE IF THEY USE NEKRO HAPPINESS.

and these NERF threads should be stopped. It's annoying.

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I win my share of vs against mages.

Am I right in assuming any threads nerfing warriors or rogues are not annoying?

Maybe we should bring up all the threads on changes which occured in the name of balance that negatively affected the warrior and rogue class, to analyse how supportive the mage community was in all of them?

I remember a huge amount of the mage community calling for the nerf of the elondrian bulwark weapon. And what was the result of such?

However, I would rather that drama didn't emerge from the result of that venture.

The mage class has remained untouched for years and have only ever received buffs, to the point of becoming what they are today.

Its also biased for the community of a class that has only ever been buffed to suggest shutting down all requests for balance by classes that have been nerfed on numerous occasions.

I don't think my request is unjust.

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Originally Posted by avikk

Have you ever played a mage?

Mages really aren't all that tanky as you pan them out to be...

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This is obviously because you are no good mage, the good ones are tanky! There are several good mages in Arcane Legends, ask them how to play!

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

Let me add some mage stats:
*6,400 health
*1,900 armor
*1,300 damage
*Instant full health heal + significant dot heal for a few seconds.
*Ability to rotate between a 70% damage reduction shield and a 40% damage reduction shield at will.
*2 seconds of invulnerability.

A shield with a 15 second duration and 27 seconds cooldown means a 12 second downtime which a 8 second nekro shield kindly reduces to a 4 second downtime. 4 seconds of no shields is compensated by a heal that almost acts as an extra shield.

Juggernaut is incomparable due to its 15 seconds duration and 40 second cooldown (with the mastery). That's a 25 downtime. What do we rotate here and for 25 seconds? We don't, we just die after those 15 seconds.

Mages appear to be much too tanky in terms of a dps or support class.

Warriors are tanks.

Rogues are dps.

What is the purpose of the mage class exactly? To be warriors with more damage?

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You're comparing apples to oranges. There is no fair comparison between one skill of a class vs another. I will list the following points:

1.Juggernaut has an extremely long cooldown that is true. But you also neglect to mention that, during the period that the skill is in effect, a tank with enough HP and armor will not die no matter how much damage is thrown at him. In contrast a mage shield does not grant a self-heal like Juggernaut, and after the first 2 seconds of invulnerability, a mage can die.

2. You speak of Nekro shield as an additional shield. Tanks can also utilize Nekro for its damage reduction and stun immunity. Also factor in the Horn of Renew bubble which gives 2 seconds of invulnerability and you have a total of 27 seconds of some form of shield. True, there is still a 13 second (with jugg mastery) window that a tank has truly little defence against attacks. But the heal over time of HoR can be timed to cover that period of vulnerability, and because a tank has so much HP and armor, it still takes some effort to bring a good tank down. Lastly, A tank with reasonable gear should have enough damage to force a mage/rogue to heal/shield and disrupt their attack cycle. We are not even talking about a clash which typically has two tanks covering each other such that the tank in their window of vulnerability is not always open to attack. In summary, what I'm trying to illustrate is that a tank is still hard to kill despite an apparently large window of vulnerability.

3. A tank has inherent high damage absorption capability compared to a mage due to the huge difference in armor. The stats you mentioned in your post above are that of a mage who has geared him/herself to the teeth with the latest gear and possibly munch mouth happiness bonus. You do not find every other mage in PvP running around with those stats. The average mage has 1.6k to 1.7k armor because they sacrifice armor and sometimes damage for higher crit (imbued/slaterock gear). These mages are extremely squishy after their shield expires, and probably form the majority of mages who claim that they get one-hit by rogues. However that is not the point I am trying to make. The point is that after taking into account the damage reduction of mage shield and tank juggernaut, a tank in the end still has much higher capacity to take damage. A mage in that reapect cannot replace a tank.

4. I have come to see a mage as ideally being an intermediate between a tank and a rogue: to be able to be less glass than a rogue as they can rely on their shield to forestall impending death to give them a brief chance to fight back or find cover, but not as cannon in that their lightning will never hit as hard as aimed shot. Nerfing their shield so much will bring them down to a survivability almost equal to that of rogues even with shield on, and I do not think that should be the case.

@Breakingbad, my intention is currently to caution against pushing for drastic buffs/nerfs that would cause an extreme shift in the balance between the classes. I see that you are trying to make a reasoned discussion regarding possible changes to improve PvP balance, but we have seen that large-scale changes have led to uncomfortable shifts in gameplay for different classes at different stages. I am not prepared to call the current version of mage shield bugged, more like it might require small tweaks like aimed shot has had. But we will see later if it happens.

Also, saying that the devs have identified a potential problem with a class and thus we need to take it seriously is not a good reason to say this is something that is a genuine issue. In the end the devs are players like you and me, and I have doubts as to how much they play the game that they have a good enough idea to critically evaluate the deficiencies of each skill of each class. That is why they rely alot on our feedback to help set things right. But if we cannot start a discussion without people cutting in with abrasive and provocative remarks, then no one will take our words seriously and we will end up with the devs deciding things on their own, and no one will get the balance that we as a community are seeking.

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

Let me add some mage stats:
*6,400 health
*1,900 armor
*1,300 damage
*Instant full health heal + significant dot heal for a few seconds.
*Ability to rotate between a 70% damage reduction shield and a 40% damage reduction shield at will.
*2 seconds of invulnerability.

A shield with a 15 second duration and 27 seconds cooldown means a 12 second downtime which a 8 second nekro shield kindly reduces to a 4 second downtime. 4 seconds of no shields is compensated by a heal that almost acts as an extra shield.

Juggernaut is incomparable due to its 15 seconds duration and 40 second cooldown (with the mastery). That's a 25 downtime. What do we rotate here and for 25 seconds? We don't, we just die after those 15 seconds.

Mages appear to be much too tanky in terms of a dps or support class.

Warriors are tanks.

Rogues are dps.

What is the purpose of the mage class exactly? To be warriors with more damage?

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Actually, in pvp my lifegiver only heals about 40% of my total hp. That's a lot, but definitely manageable by my opponents.

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Originally Posted by Safiras

You're comparing apples to oranges. There is no fair comparison between one skill of a class vs another. I will list the following points:

1.Juggernaut has an extremely long cooldown that is true. But you also neglect to mention that, during the period that the skill is in effect, a tank with enough HP and armor will not die no matter how much damage is thrown at him. In contrast a mage shield does not grant a self-heal like Juggernaut, and after the first 2 seconds of invulnerability, a mage can die.

2. You speak of Nekro shield as an additional shield. Tanks can also utilize Nekro for its damage reduction and stun immunity. Also factor in the Horn of Renew bubble which gives 2 seconds of invulnerability and you have a total of 27 seconds of some form of shield. True, there is still a 13 second (with jugg mastery) window that a tank has truly little defence against attacks. But the heal over time of HoR can be timed to cover that period of vulnerability, and because a tank has so much HP and armor, it still takes some effort to bring a good tank down. Lastly, A tank with reasonable gear should have enough damage to force a mage/rogue to heal/shield and disrupt their attack cycle. We are not even talking about a clash which typically has two tanks covering each other such that the tank in their window of vulnerability is not always open to attack. In summary, what I'm trying to illustrate is that a tank is still hard to kill despite an apparently large window of vulnerability.

3. A tank has inherent high damage absorption capability compared to a mage due to the huge difference in armor. The stats you mentioned in your post above are that of a mage who has geared him/herself to the teeth with the latest gear and possibly munch mouth happiness bonus. You do not find every other mage in PvP running around with those stats. The average mage has 1.6k to 1.7k armor because they sacrifice armor and sometimes damage for higher crit (imbued/slaterock gear). These mages are extremely squishy after their shield expires, and probably form the majority of mages who claim that they get one-hit by rogues. However that is not the point I am trying to make. The point is that after taking into account the damage reduction of mage shield and tank juggernaut, a tank in the end still has much higher capacity to take damage. A mage in that reapect cannot replace a tank.

4. I have come to see a mage as ideally being an intermediate between a tank and a rogue: to be able to be less glass than a rogue as they can rely on their shield to forestall impending death to give them a brief chance to fight back or find cover, but not as cannon in that their lightning will never hit as hard as aimed shot. Nerfing their shield so much will bring them down to a survivability almost equal to that of rogues even with shield on, and I do not think that should be the case.

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1). Looking at the mage class from a 1v1 perspective will not help us see the bigger picture. Mages are tanky enough to survive for prolonged periods, even after the 2 seconds of invulnerability has expired.

2). No. 2 refers to the presence of more than 1 tank so let's speak of the presence of more than 1 mage.

3). These stats have become all to common and stating that a select few own such stats doesn't help the issue in any way. As an example, If one person in game had broken stats. Saying that the possibility of meeting them is e.g. 0.001% doesn't justify not implementing a fix. The fact is they exist.

4). Lets not leave out their ability of high chance to stun and the fact that these stuns can last for excessive periods of time regardless of the stun immunity system. From what I remember, the mage ability to stun made up for their base survival stats being just under that of rogues. Does tankiness and the ability of high chance to stun for excessive periods sounds right to you?

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Originally Posted by avikk

That isn't true, give this game enough time and every new weapon cycle there should be enough game balance.

Warrior and rogue classes have been balanced, because they needed to be balanced. Seems to me mages aren't dodging anything but rather trying to make sure they don't get nerfed to a point where they can't PvP and become the mana providers like the Bad Old Days.

There is so much hypocrisy in that post, mages have been asking for a PvP balance for more seasons than months it took to fix rogue and warrior "issues".

last part where you say "we all buy platinum and contribute to the game? what do you think exactly that means? are you feeling entitled to something because you buy plat? that statement is just too out of the blue. Blue just reminded me are you saying Nott's don't buy plat?

If any developers are reading I would like to kindly remind them they have a forums for a reason, it shows what the community thinks of people like robhawk and what kind of mentality he has. They should have a closer look at previous posts by and at him before taking anything he says into consideration.




1. instant full health? maybe last expansion nott this expansion.

2. At will? no, any decent rogue can break an equal geared mages shield ezpz

3. Last season when I had green and no 200 ms delay I had impeccable shield rotation and was always under shield unless it broke, I haven't PvPed much this season(when I did I had PvE gear and hence was wearing assault gear) but my shield broke every now and then. It was the same last season in a few of your previous posts you've mentioned mages have enjoyed 2 seasons of being OP, it hasn't even been one season, we only got buffs middle of last year and this season hasn't even ended.

I would like to remind you of 36 expansion where mages where the "food class", and they remained the food class till the shield was fixed(remember nekro shield being better than ours? If you don't that was a time on forums when everyone called mages the "pet class") and heal over time for our shield was fixed(this after 4 seasons of getting bullied and pudgered by warriors and rogues alike).

4. warriors have VB, HoR, juff, feeble and even a stun. They deal more damage than mages do they nott? Should tanks be doing that?


This is the only thing you've said so far that I can agree with.

Again IMHO nerfing mages is going to provide any balance in PvP, the right direction for balance is in new pets and weapons.

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1). Until we are assured that class balance will come via gear, I'm not buying it.

2). Justifying ignoring balance by making one class OP one season and another OP the other season isn't appropriate.

3). Pets and weapons for balance are just targets for further nerfing e.g. the lvl 46 arcane sword was meant to compensate for the hardships warriors had of gaining PvP kills.

It got nerfed.

4). Mages have always been a useful class since the beginning of PvP. I think that community have forgotten that their role is not to be a tank or rogue when they feel like it.

*Many mages had 30,000+ PvP kills along side rogues since the beginning of PvP. We have mages with over 60,000+ PvP kills now topping the leaderboards. Is it that they learnt to play their class properly? Because frankly, they were already competing with rogues before the mage class received the shield or heal buff.

You don't see tanks complaining about not getting kills in PvP because we know our role. Heck some even dummy farm to get kills due to this.

We know our role. What is the role of the mage class? To be a tank? To be a rogue? I'm actually confused. Please, enlighten me.

5). Platinum purchase keeps this game running. If we are spending money on platinum for our desired class, we would rather not be told to "make the new OP class and stop crying" and invest in that instead after spending so much.

Money doesn't come easy.

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Originally Posted by avikk

said the one who started playing warrior because he was soooooooo*insert a mountain of o's* at mage that he had to make a warrior!

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One reason why i switched from mage to warrior is connection problems. There is a thread you can see the problem: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...-in-duel-arena

My mage is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad that he only has around 38000 tdm kills. You can have a look in leaderboard, its the pvp section where you don't appear. :smiley_simmons:

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Also would like to point I never said that Im having trouble playing a mage. There are several nice people in the world you should try being one too!

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Looks like your own medicine doesn't taste that good eh? You should start with yourself before asking other people to be a nice person!

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

Arcane shield absorbing 2x more damage than it should be is not balance.

The lava proc of the lvl 46 arcane sword has already been nerfed in damage and stun btw.

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So you mean our shield was OP when absorb 55% ?
So you think 1 aim that could instantly kill a mage isnt OP?
You think a team with full 46 arc sword staying on a place spamming lava and pull us to there isnt OP?
Yes only mage was OP in 15 second in defend or should i say 8 second when vs a rogue no no not 8 second lets say 2combo will break mage shield and need 1 combo more to kill a mage :/ MAGE ARE OP!!!!

If you want to nerf our shield than nerf nekro AA so we can do our job as stunner :/

On the case of the mage class, I wouldn't mind a 35% reduction in the amount of damage the arcane shield absorbs as opposed to a 50% reduction.

However the reduction amount. It needs to be reduced.

Keep in mind it is an ARCANE shield. Not just mythic or legendary no arcane

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Originally Posted by Dizzywizzie

Keep in mind it is an ARCANE shield. Not just mythic or legendary no arcane

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Definition of juggernaut:

A huge, powerful and overwhelming force.

However the skill doesn't increase damage or make warriors semi-rogues for 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by avikk

Juggernaut is a "metaphorical force regarded as mercilessly destructive and unstoppable".

So basically just because warriors have a skill named juggernaut they should be unstoppable?

[As an Indian myself I would like to point out it's one of the many names of one of the main deities in Hindu religion and it doesn't really mean what the figurative term it has come to be known as]

If skills worked as they were named, Shadow pierce skill would be left redundant, let's nott take things literally? Or rogues will be left with a skill that only attacks the shadows of characters and mages will become slaves to The Arlor Electrical Company with their lightning skills.

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The intention was to prove to 'Dizzywizzie' that definitions can't always be attributed directly to names.

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Originally Posted by Breakingbadxx

The intention was to prove to 'Dizzywizzie' that definitions can't always be attributed directly to names.

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It was a joke.... or at least it was intended like that.

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We understand that some of the recent changes may not bode well with some of you. However, insulting each other and creating page after page of drama isn't going to lead anywhere productive. Thank you for taking the time to post your feedback and suggestions. I'll make a note of this thread in my report today.