No point in Levelling skills up period.. Seriously!

(Semi-rant, But deserves to be in the general discussion as it is about DL)

Okay..
So after being on Shuri (Level 20) for awhile and thinking "Why am I losing so much blood while I skill combo?" I checked the skill tree and noticed that my Lv 1 Hellblades is taking 28.68 Blood every time as well as every other skill I use.. Seriously, My Alt (Level 15) looses 16.83 blood loss on the same skill, The same level. This is seriously annoying, Is there even any point in levelling skills period?

Judging by this it means if/when level cap increases at level 25 I'll be losing over 80.00 - 100.00 blood on a level 1 skill more on a level 2 up to 160.00 blood loss, That's absurd and a very bad mechanic to a game. No skill should increase blood loss when a character level ups let alone increase loss of anything period especially in a "MMO". I find this very ridicules to the game especially since STS is releasing a new PvP map. So it doesn't matter at all in PvP who gets charged Fatal out first or not it all comes down to what skills you actually pick.
With that said Here's a thought and I want everyone's feedback on this good or bad..

Instead of making it so we lose 11.83 blood every 5 levels(or so) give us something to use instead of blood, I understand "Oh, It's a vampire they use blood magic" Not true, Not all vampires use blood magic in some cases it's rarely used.
I honestly don't care if another pack dealer shows up and sells 100 of said item to counter it for 100k I'll deal with it!
But this blood loss I cannot its sad to have it happen.

Now I realize that with level cap increase there will also be new(Better)gems however with that said the new gems will also be useless considering we'll be wasting 100 - 160 blood per skill meaning we'll have to get around 2000 HP or more, 300 Damage, 400 Attack, 200 Defence or something. That's impossible without platinum. Unless of course platinum is the best way to go.. What makes it even sadder considering I'am full platinum on Shuri and to be honest, They're okay.. But not great considering you have to get Hardened/Vigorous in Firebrand packs, Malicious/Other(not sure) in plague pack and all others in Immortalius and soul packs meaning you're spending over $500 to build a platinum toon unless you're fortunate enough to get all gems on the 1st box like I was with my firebrand. And anyway, Talking about platinum builds, Honestly there not that great my build that I farmed the gems with (217 Attack, 90 Defence, 890 Health, 109 Damage) was a lot better than this platinum build it had the health and damage to back it up for a ambusher in PvP or full front assault, So no. Plat toons are not better they're in fact worse if you ask me.

Anyway, Sorry for the huge rant but I find this mechanic seriously annoying. Why do we lose so much blood every 5 levels? Why is it if we level up said skills we'll die way faster? So many questions so little answers :S And yes, I've seen all STS answers.

"Its for a medium-core to casual gamer" If that's true how come platinum is so expensive?

Casual gamers don't spend cash on games.
Medium-Core gamers won't do it,
Its US hardcore PvP addicts and achievement fanatics that are driving your game.

With that said..

/End rant.

Skills cost a % of your total health, increasing your health pool will just make them cost more. The tradeoff for a higher level of skill is more damage at greater cost, as with any RPG out there pretty much.

That's why we have feed.

And in PvP it just means you need to use skills more thoughtfully.

I think it's a rarely-used and exciting mechanic that, along with the ability to charge skills and attacks, makes for intetesting combat.

How to you get a 270 attack, 90 defense, 890 health, 109 damage build with no plat gear?

Although, 90 seems kinda low for defense. Why not sacrifice some attack in favor of defense and health?

Actually a large number of rpgs do this, a skill does more dmg at a higher cost. Makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Blaquehaaart:635231

How to you get a 270 attack, 90 defense, 890 health, 109 damage build with no plat gear?

Although, 90 seems kinda low for defense. Why not sacrifice some attack in favor of defense and health?

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Sounds like passive skills to me

Um..... I've been rather positive about DL in general his til this point, but Shuri makes some really good points here. In fact, I can't find any holes in his logic... Am I missing something here?

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Originally Posted by Zel

Skills cost a % of your total health, increasing your health pool will just make them cost more. The tradeoff for a higher level of skill is more damage at greater cost, as with any RPG out there pretty much.

That's why we have feed.

And in PvP it just means you need to use skills more thoughtfully.

I think it's a rarely-used and exciting mechanic that, along with the ability to charge skills and attacks, makes for intetesting combat.

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Except for the fact that the tradeoff is not worth it when the increase of damage you receive from it is less than the increase of damage that it does to yourself. And on top of that, why would you level up hellblade or any of those other abilities when you can just get lvl 1 Vermin Swarm or Leap; which do more damage AND have a lower blood cost.

And there's a big difference between resource management, and having to sacrifice half of your life to have a chance of killing someone. The metagame is already way too focused on burst damage, and if everybody is having to sacrifice half of their life to each of their spells ONCE, then burst damage will be even more prevalent than it is now.

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Originally Posted by Cjon

Except for the fact that the tradeoff is not worth it when the increase of damage you receive from it is less than the increase of damage that it does to yourself. And on top of that, why would you level up hellblade or any of those other abilities when you can just get lvl 1 Vermin Swarm or Leap; which do more damage AND have a lower blood cost.

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Remember, STS made Dark Legends with skills trees, so if you wanted just vermin swarm, you would have to sacrifice at least 1 SP in UH, FB, Curse, then Vermin Swarm. There's no way to avoid it and what's the point having skills you know you won't use.

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Originally Posted by Cjon

Except for the fact that the tradeoff is not worth it when the increase of damage you receive from it is less than the increase of damage that it does to yourself. And on top of that, why would you level up hellblade or any of those other abilities when you can just get lvl 1 Vermin Swarm or Leap; which do more damage AND have a lower blood cost.

And there's a big difference between resource management, and having to sacrifice half of your life to have a chance of killing someone. The metagame is already way too focused on burst damage, and if everybody is having to sacrifice half of their life to each of their spells ONCE, then burst damage will be even more prevalent than it is now.

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I have 826 health and 98 damage, both average amounts.

The skill cost increase from rank 1 to 2 is double, then triple at rank 3, and so on. Eg: Rank 1 Hellblade costs 23 health, rank 2 costs 46, etc.

Unholy Force adds 30 damage. Hellblade, 49. Fatal Burst, 51. Leap, 54. VS, 158 (37 dps).

Not a single skill would be a bigger cost to my healthpool than the damage increase given...and as all those skills have the capability to strike multiple targets, in an AoE situation the damage done so far surpasses the cost to the caster that the point is moot. Not to mention the feed levels generated by the skill use.

Sure, I COULD pump everything I have into my health, at a sacrifice to my damage...and that would make skills a greater cost to me than damage to my enemy if upgraded...

OR I could value my offensive stats, as I'm sure most of us do, and find that not only is a balanced character more effective, but that the increase in damage potential is weighted equally with the increase in health cost.

Thanks all for the feedback! ^^ however.. Some correction is needed. :L Sorry to be disappointing but

Cjon
Incorrect, Leap, VS and HB all have the same blood % sure leap and VS has better output but the point I'm making is that I find it fairly silly to have a increase % of loss when you level up entirely let alone on a players level 1 skill you pick up at 4 or so especially when the real trade-off is around 5 - 10 extra damage for a 10 - 15 more blood loss, It's not worth it to level up any skills it seems and just pump passives

I.E. Say the caps level 50, keep level one skills go for 5,5,5,5 on passives as the % loss will be brutal either way and the level up damage is a 5-10-15 increase but % loss is a 10-15-20 increase as the % loss is your total HP so if you have level 5 FB with 2500 HP you lose say 320.092 - 500.023 HP per FB charged burst. Its not worth it. Damage might increase but you will get roflstomped faster..


Elyseon
"A large number of RPG does this" Another mistake, Not every MMORPG does this and when they do they know it will lose players interest, Not everyone wishes to lose a % amount of percentage in HP/MP on a level 1 skill, Maybe STS does it a lot unsure due to I never paid attention in SL let alone got into PL, However RPGs try to make it so lower level abilitys in this case. Level 1 skills cost as low as possible for a level 1 skill until you start levelling it up then it should start costing more. Not sure what RPGs you play but I have over 30 or 50 on my pc to date and none does this from F2P to P2P RPGs(Won't name them, Due to it's not off topic chat)


Cahaun
As for my high attack and damage without plat gems, I used passives and assault gems at level 20, Although I tweaked it and traded out one assault for a HP gem so instead of having X amount of HP it bumped it significantly.


Zel
Yes! You understand what I mean by this thread, Lv1 or 2 or 3 skills get doubled and tripled every time you level them so there's no beneficial point in doing the skills up and just keep them at 1 while you pump passives while maintaining under 900 or 1000 HP so a balance of 755 to 855 is the way to go on & management at this level cap to-date. I love you.. T^T

P.S. Zel, I tried 1018 HP, My blood loss was jumped supernaturally to the point I couldn't Combo finish without having under half HP. Yet, I also done low damage for having 120ish attack, 100 Damage, 1018 HP, 140ish defence. (Plat gems/Firebrand) It didn't work either...


However, Point I'am trying to make is that I find it rather weird on STSs part to make lowbie skills (1 - 6) increase although I'm aware that the damage increases with it but when it comes down to the point. 10 damage isn't worth an added 10 or 20, let alone 30 loss. It stops the whole RPG feel when you take away the mechanic to allow the user to use low level skills as a finisher. Don't get me wrong on an entirely different game a free roaming RPG I always loved using Level 1 skills as finishers or when I have little HP/MP but not being able to use skills at all in PVP when your low and running around... Just die .. it literally defeats the purpose of having a chance or doing some damage before a team mate comes up and finishes them off.

Sorry to sound rude in anyway to all posters but this mechanic to me, feels a little weird even though I'm aware more HP = More % loss but problem there is HP shouldn't play a role in % loss to begin with it should have a set level of loss because it has new people making specs "thinking" its the best to find out lv2 kills you faster. also the more HP you use the more packs you'll also burn if you can't feed although packs go on a percentage base in 25% to whatever health you have when you pop it.

Ah man, I see what you mean. Man, now I see why I've been frecken dying a lot. I've been using all the high blood abilities. Yeah, you're right, it's better to just plug one point in to stomp and one into swarm. Errrg, I don't like the fb/vs/stomp play style though...it's kinda boring.

Looks like it's a forced pvp spec after all.

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Originally Posted by Blaquehaaart:635385

Ah man, I see what you mean. Man, now I see why I've been frecken dying a lot. I've been using all the high blood abilities. Yeah, you're right, it's better to just plug one point in to stomp and one into swarm. Errrg, I don't like the fb/vs/stomp play style though...it's kinda boring.

Looks like it's a forced pvp spec after all.

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It should get better soon. It's like either use these op skills compared to the others or use the normal ones that do different things.

The best mechanic would be %blood of current health, but that would require a more complex mechanic. When you are getting hit by multiple mobs, high health is your worst enemy, and you can suicide in an instant.

Suicide? That sounds like spamming my skills in DL...
Just a bit off topic but I was on Oblivion one day and I looted a ring that does 150 fire points of damage TO the user. It's a suicide ring @_@

Skills cost just over 1/33 of your health at rank 1 (I think FluffNStuff may have also stated that at one point)

That means rank 5 skills would cost closer to, but just under, 1/7 of your health...that means you'd kill yourself with 2 combos. Haha. That IS ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Shuri

Thanks all for the feedback! ^^ however.. Some correction is needed. :L Sorry to be disappointing but

Cjon
Incorrect, Leap, VS and HB all have the same blood % sure leap and VS has better output but the point I'm making is that I find it fairly silly to have a increase % of loss when you level up entirely let alone on a players level 1 skill you pick up at 4 or so especially when the real trade-off is around 5 - 10 extra damage for a 10 - 15 more blood loss, It's not worth it to level up any skills it seems and just pump passives

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I wasn't saying that the blood costs are different for them, but you only put one point into Leap and VS, while you have to put 3 points into Unholy Force to make it comparably to either of those abilities. So you should compare a lvl 3 UF to a lvl 1 Leap/VS, which in this case, Leap/VS does have a lower cost.

This pattern is just going to continue throughout the life of the game, unless they do something to change it. Once Brimestone/Dark Binding/Fire Aura/etc. come out, they will be the standard for abilities. Since with those, you can do just as much damage, but not lose nearly as much health casting them. And its not like you'll have to spend any more points to acquire them, if its assumed that the alternative is a lvl 5 UF/HB/SD.

I understand where you're coming from but skills do need cooldowns and a resource to stop spamming and other such things, its quite unique that health is used as the resource but I would dare say that this was all done with the intent of being max level which would give you a higher health pool

Maybe make defense lower the blood cost?

Whatever STS do to rectify the issue, i sincerely pray they don't lose this health cost mechanic. It has a great feel to it. Maybe it just needs tinkering with!

They just need to balance the builds.

The vs/stomp build is the only real viable build. It does the most damage, gives the most survivability, it the best with blood, it's range, it's cooldowns are short, and you can stunlock with it. I thought it was op when I was playing against it. Now that I'm using it, I think it's more op. If someone does not have more than 800 health, they will die from the initial damage...and I will lose about 1/10 of my life dropping it. Then, it does a crazy knock back (like across the entire board if you time it right), it snares, so you can kite around till your skills come backup.

The opening with a UB build will drain half your life. Also, UB only strips one snare, but a vs/stomp build is all about the initial nuke, and if you get hit with it your gonna eat all the damage anyway.

UB should just grant full immunity to snares and stuns. It's on a 1 minute cool down, and the build consumes so much blood it's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by FluffNStuff

When you are getting hit by multiple mobs, high health is your worst enemy, and you can suicide in an instant.

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Sorry Fluff, your just wrong! All things being equal, no matter how man hits you take or how man skills you fire, you will always have more health left if you started with higher health. What you are seeing is stemming from sacrificing armor for blood based on the gems you are picking. The more hits you take, the more important armor becomes over health, just like any other game. Next time, check your math before posting!

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Originally Posted by bobbybastos:636262

I understand where you're coming from but skills do need cooldowns and a resource to stop spamming and other such things, its quite unique that health is used as the resource but I would dare say that this was all done with the intent of being max level which would give you a higher health pool

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Having a higher health pool doesn't help at all. The more health you have, the more health you lose from the skills.

Higher health helps tremendously in pvp. All the top guys have over 1000.

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Originally Posted by Cahaun

Having a higher health pool doesn't help at all. The more health you have, the more health you lose from the skills.

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It is a percentage, so think of it the other way. The more health you have, the more health you have left after the skills.

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Originally Posted by Zel

Skills cost a % of your total health, increasing your health pool will just make them cost more. The tradeoff for a higher level of skill is more damage at greater cost, as with any RPG out there pretty much.

That's why we have feed.

And in PvP it just means you need to use skills more thoughtfully.

I think it's a rarely-used and exciting mechanic that, along with the ability to charge skills and attacks, makes for intetesting combat.

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All I see is charge spam triple .skill combos that virtually kill you every time. This isn't hardcore, it's simplistic. whether I should have to waste 2 points or not to briefly postpone my charge spam deaths, this isn't cutting it

I'm lvl15 and all my skills are currently at lvl1 and i don't have that much of a problem with blood costs, yeah it sucks to lose a large portion of HP to use skills specially in PVP but i think it's the only thing that stands between it being a spam feast and having just a little bit of skill in using skills wisely. But again i'm still lvl15 so i'm not sure how it is at 20.

On another note i think skills overall need to be toned, the difference in dmg between low-level and high-level skills are huge which leave old skills nearly useless compared to new ones, hence, from what i read, FB/VS/Leap combo is the most used at higher levels, so i think they need to bring all skills on a somewhat even ground in terms of dmg, allowing more flexibility in builds, i don't think that ppl at the current skill state even dare to try new builds unless they got the extra $$ to respec from now and then.

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Originally Posted by Zil

All I see is charge spam triple .skill combos that virtually kill you every time. This isn't hardcore, it's simplistic. whether I should have to waste 2 points or not to briefly postpone my charge spam deaths, this isn't cutting it

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Yeah, vs/stomp is pretty much a forced pvp spec for if you want to be competitive. Not only does it do more damage, but it is better on blood conservation, has a further range, is aoe, has faster cooldowns, and gives you more points to plug into passives.

Skills further down tree should cost as much blood as ranked skills lower down. The DM is just a nuke fest of frenzed blast, vs, and stomp. There is no skill involved, whoever has the best gear and hides behind is team mates will become the king and pwn everyone.

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Originally Posted by Cjon

I wasn't saying that the blood costs are different for them, but you only put one point into Leap and VS, while you have to put 3 points into Unholy Force to make it comparably to either of those abilities. So you should compare a lvl 3 UF to a lvl 1 Leap/VS, which in this case, Leap/VS does have a lower cost.

This pattern is just going to continue throughout the life of the game, unless they do something to change it. Once Brimestone/Dark Binding/Fire Aura/etc. come out, they will be the standard for abilities. Since with those, you can do just as much damage, but not lose nearly as much health casting them. And its not like you'll have to spend any more points to acquire them, if its assumed that the alternative is a lvl 5 UF/HB/SD.

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I'm not talking about damage output if that's what you're on about, I'm talking about the blood % loss on skills as your character levels up. I just think it would be rather nice if one(I.E. Me the player) could go back and use my lower level acquired skills I got at levels 1 to 5 or so without having them cost as much % as the ones I acquired at level 15 - 20, I see the mechanic STS put in to stop the use of spam but at what cost would spamming do in PvP if your just going die anyway thus choosing whats best is in order and tactics are set in play. However with tactics said it doesn't really mean anything when you can just wait it out and pick off the ones that have already burnt up all there HP and can't fight back. See my issue here? =P



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Originally Posted by Blaquehaaart

They just need to balance the builds.

The vs/stomp build is the only real viable build. It does the most damage, gives the most survivability, it the best with blood, it's range, it's cooldowns are short, and you can stunlock with it. I thought it was op when I was playing against it. Now that I'm using it, I think it's more op. If someone does not have more than 800 health, they will die from the initial damage...and I will lose about 1/10 of my life dropping it. Then, it does a crazy knock back (like across the entire board if you time it right), it snares, so you can kite around till your skills come backup.

The opening with a UB build will drain half your life. Also, UB only strips one snare, but a vs/stomp build is all about the initial nuke, and if you get hit with it your gonna eat all the damage anyway.

UB should just grant full immunity to snares and stuns. It's on a 1 minute cool down, and the build consumes so much blood it's ridiculous.

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And here is the reason I refuse to use UB. Either way as blaque said it only stops one snare therefore an opening with FB is pointless if you're still getting hit with the VS>Leap combo and the VS alone is a 'fast charge' as I'll call it as it doesn't require much of a press release like FB does so even if you UB on there FB they can still have rats eating you for 20 or so seconds while you use your skills meaning you may escape death you may not also, as VS is a knockback you can charge up and stomp them for added damage so Blessing doesn't really help.
Even though Blessings buff is incredible it to me is still a waste in a point what I could dump on a passive and get X amount of HP or extra damage let alone defense. Any of thouse would be more beneficial in my PvP style than a snare release.

IOS player here so i am a newbie here. But from what i'e read in this thread so far, i can only think of a couple solutions. As mentioned before, Make it so that the blood cost is based upon current Hp, not max. Second, devs might have to tweak the percentage cost. Maybe something like a tiered system. Tier 1 skills cost 2-4-6-8-10% (per level), tier 2 cost 3-6-8-12-15% , tier 3 costs 4-8-12-16-20% and so on.