Thuull's DaggerMage Build

Thanks ViolentSaint…I blatantly ripped off your build template format because I liked it =P

Thuull’s DaggerMage Build

A few notes about this build…it is geared towards high DPS *single target* damage. This is not an AE build, although there is some room to throw some in. Further, everything in this build is designed to provide the highest MELEE DPS available including getting your pointy thing into the target. The skills used are to enhance the dagger’s already high damage output. You will need a tank in your group in order to get the most efficiency out of this template. The build does fine against yard trash, but anything DJinn sized or bigger will eat it for lunch if you get focus fired. Played intelligently, it shines up there in the front lines.
If you see Sharazaad online, she will likely be running this build.

BASE ATTRIBUTES

base str
222 dex
base int

SKILLS (these are the mandatory set to support the build, which require only 31 pts skill investment. This leaves you room to play around and/or include skills that you like or rely on).

Heal 5
Lightning 5
Rez 1
Frostbite 5
Nightmare 5
Weakness 5
Blessing of Might 5
Blessing of Vit 5
Mana Shield 5

GEAR

HELM - Scorpion helm of thoth - lvl 45 - 138 dex
8 int, 3% crit, 6M/s, 10 armor

WEAPON – Desert dagger of horus - lvl 45, 142 dex (use Osiris for an extra 2% dodge, but give up 3% crit)
45-46 damage, 0.3 speed, 8 dex, 3% Dodge, 6% crit

ARMOR – Scorpion leather of isis - lvl 45 - 142 dex
8% dodge, 6 h/s, 61 armor

SHEILD – Menes wing of thoth - lvl 45 - 142 dex
8 int, 3% crit, 6M/s, 19 armor

STATS UNBUFFED ARE
str 1, dex 230, int 23, hit 189%, crit 49, dodge 22, health 200, health regen 6, mana 312, mana regen 13, damage 87-89, dps 252, armor 99

Frostbite is for keeping your runner mobs where you can get your hands on them. The green guys in Plasma Pyramid are dead (when you are solo) in less than two casts of Frostbite, giving them zero time to back up out of your melee range and attract more friends.

Your spells are not for damage output, they are for support of your dagger dps, including debuffs on the mobs (lightning, nightmare and weakness) and buffs on yourself (blessing of might).

The build plays well with zero potion usage with the following rotation: lightning, weakness, nightmare, blessing, frostbite (when needed to hold mobs still) and then respamming skills as they become available until everything is dead. If you have to support heal (other players), or if you add more to the rotation, you will overcome your mana regen and have to occasionally pot.

This is a very fun build, but as noted requires support. You need a tank, because you are squishy. If you have a tank, you will be counting the bodies as they hit the floor. It delivers extremely high single target dps and provides group support (heals/rez/buff/debuff) to those around you. With a few tweaks can add on group combo ability as well, with room (skill points) available outside of the core build for you to play around with and do what you want.

How do you feel this would fair in pvp? I can see this be a fun build :)

Thanks for posting!

Very daring build. I have a full Dex mage, and have played around with daggers, but the health is just so low that a dagger bear or bird seems infinitely better. However I'm sure it's doable if you're with a good group. Anyway, I'd recommend the Osiris dagger for more dodge, and replacing one of your Thoth pieces with an Isis for even more dodge, armor, and H/s. I understand you're focused on damage, but you don't do any damage when you're dead ;) Also you definitely going to want BOV maxed out for any sort of melée mage. Along with mana shield and heal, the armor buff of BOV, is how mages stay on their feet.

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Originally Posted by Royce

Very dating build. I have a full Dex mage, and have played around with daggers, but the health is just so low that a dagger bear or bird seems infinitely better. However I'm sure it's doable if you're with a good group. Anyway, I'd recommend the Osiris dagger for more dodge, and replacing one of your Thoth pieces with an Isis for even more dodge, armor, and H/s. I understand you're focused on damage, but you don't do any famage when you're dead ;)

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Have done dagger bear, which is of course sexy with a great set of skills that plays extremely well to the dagger...have also done dagger bird, which is great dps as well. They all have plusses and minuses, but "infinitely better" is an extremely subjective term. All three dagger templates are fun to play, and all three are completely different. Since there is very little here on the forums around dagger use on a mage, I decided to offer up what I've found to work the best. Personally, having the group support of heal and rez makes this build "infinitely better" than bear or chikkin. Having played all three, I feel comfortable with that statement. Again, it's completely subjective...everyone has different ideas as to what they like and what they don't.

It's more than doable, and a "good group" isn't needed. All that's needed is a tank, the other three can be complete scrubs.

On the Osiris dagger, the difference only amounts to 2% dodge due to the Horus providing dex and the Osiris providing strength. Personally, 2% dodge is not worth the crit that you give up...because this character is squishy anyway. 2% dodge is not going to allow this build to tank anything better than is already does.

Swapping out a Thoth for an Isis is viable, but upsets the mana neutrality. If you like to pop potions, it's always an option, and very much personal preference. 8% dodge *will* make a difference, but without any tank skills in the mage tree, it's not going to allow you to tank a boss anyway. As is, with two Thoth, this build can solo Plasma all the way to the bosses quickly and efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Volksy

How do you feel this would fair in pvp? I can see this be a fun build :)

Thanks for posting!

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Probably not terribly well. It's not very bursty, more of a sustained damage output. High dps from it requires some prep time with debuffs and buffs, so I would imagine it would be dead before being able to really deliver the meat. Lastly, you've got to be in melee range, which is already a big downside PvP wise.

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Originally Posted by Royce

Along with mana shield and heal, the armor buff of BOV, is how mages stay on their feet.

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I debated putting them in as mandatory, and they are recommended. I do use them (both) for boss engagements but honestly have not yet had them keep me up that I've noticed if I get focused. So I question whether they are strictly required.

At all other times, I run without either one due to mana neutrality. That's a personal goal for all of my builds...no need to constantly pot. If you add either BoV or mana shield (omg mana hog) you lose the mana neutrality. Instead, I have adjusted my playstyle such that I've learned how to survive without them. I personally decided not to use them as a crutch. The more you are used to playing as a squishy and stay alive, the less you need the crutch skills.

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Originally Posted by Thuull

I debated putting them in as mandatory, and they are recommended. I do use them (both) for boss engagements but honestly have not yet had them keep me up that I've noticed if I get focused. So I question whether they are strictly required.

At all other times, I run without either one due to mana neutrality. That's a personal goal for all of my builds...no need to constantly pot. If you add either BoV or mana shield (omg mana hog) you lose the mana neutrality. Instead, I have adjusted my playstyle such that I've learned how to survive without them. I personally decided not to use them as a crutch. The more you are used to playing as a squishy and stay alive, the less you need the crutch skills.

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Well, I wouldn't consider them crutches, but if you can get by without them, that's fine. All I can say is, BOV and mana shield have saved all three of my enchantresses butts many times in boss battles. Yes, mana shield can be a terrible mana drain, and really works best with 3 or 4 Thoth pieces to regenerate, but maxed BOV is not very costly at all in terms of mana, and I can't imagine not using it for any melee mage. And just to be clear I wasn't trying to get down on your build at all. I think it's a very fun setup. Perhaps "infinitely better" was a poor choice of words. I just know that when I was playing my mage with a dagger, I felt that I could not help much with support, particularly healing, without sacrificing significant DPS (since heals keep you from stabbing), and I was drawn back to a ranged weapon, then again I always feel it is my primary responsibility to keep my team alive and well with any type of mage build, and that need not be the case for everybody. And for pure DPS and melee survivability, you are definitely better off as a bird with focus, evasion and higher health, or a bear with rage, ironblood, evasion, and much higher health. Again, I'm not saying a dagger mage can't be effective and fun, just that it's a more challenging build, and there's nothing wrong with that ;)

Wanted to re-visit this after having an open mind and letting Royce's argument cause me to go do some reconfiguring.

Adding BoV and Mana Shield as core to the build is worth doing. My stubbornness around not using pots has been overcome (I'm cheap, what can I say, I don't like to pot). The life expectancy *does* go up enough to justify it...but you're still no paladin with this build. The build still dies if focused while in fights that are longer than a full skill rotation...but, with BoV and Shield it can stay up quite effectively through that single rotation and in most fights that's enough.

I've found by playing this way for the past couple of days that I can be quite a bit more free to berzerker charge fights as opposed to waiting for the tank to grab aggro every single time. Still important in boss fights, but certainly not for yard trash. I'll go as far as to say that it makes the build even more fun to play.

Also with the rebuild, I added back in the ice and fire AEs, just for some additional damage. I figured if I'm going to be potting anyway, I might as well add them back in. Again, a positive change, but I won't consider them core skills for the build because they're not strictly necessary to the way the build plays.

Thanks for the feedback Royce.

I used dagger mage for a while, conclusion - damage beats DPS every time. Your best bet is to switch to pally or get your a thoth talon and pvp ;)

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Originally Posted by cry

I used dagger mage for a while, conclusion - damage beats DPS every time. Your best bet is to switch to pally or get your a thoth talon and pvp ;)

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If you're interested only in pvp, sure.

Even PvE, die more quickly than paladins and do less dmg.

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Originally Posted by cry

Even PvE, die more quickly than paladins and do less dmg.

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If you are in a group that already has a spear and lance going (making your debuff redundant), the dagger's damage and bleed is definitely superior. Even if not, dagger damage is pretty comparable to what a paladin can do because it starts high and builds on each target as time goes by since bleeds (like spear armor breaks) stack on themselves. Survivability is a different matter, that's why I called it a daring build, but hey this games too easy anyway, why not try a build that requires you to be careful ;)

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Originally Posted by Royce

If you are in a group that already has a spear and lance going (making your debuff redundant), the dagger's damage and bleed is definitely superior. Even if not, dagger damage is pretty comparable to what a paladin can do because it starts high and builds on each target as time goes by since bleeds (like spear armor breaks) stack on themselves.

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I am rather new to the game and do not follow the forums much. Can you explain a little further what you mean by bleed damage from daggers? Also what specifically what do you mean about spear and lance making debuffs redundant. Does damage from specific melee items introduce a debuff on enemy monsters?

there are lots of procs that some specific weapons have.
bleed is a dagger's proc which causes damage over time. think of it as poison
spears and lances have a proc which has armour break. this means that it reduces the enemy's armour resulting in you causing more damage.
plasmas have a lightning proc which acts similar to the spear and lance's proc but not as great.
there are some more procs but that's all i can think of on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Niveous

I am rather new to the game and do not follow the forums much. Can you explain a little further what you mean by bleed damage from daggers? Also what specifically what do you mean about spear and lance making debuffs redundant. Does damage from specific melee items introduce a debuff on enemy monsters?

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Certain weapons have procs, like spears have a break armor proc, lances a lightning proc, and daggers a bleed proc (there are many more like darkblade-nighmare, hammer-stun, etc.). Some procs stack with themselves, while others don't. For example, lightning does not stack. You hit a target with a lance, his armor drops, You can keep hitting him all you want with that lance, and it won't drop any further. With a spear, break armor stacks. So you poke a target, and his armor may drop. You poke again, it may drop even further. The dagger proc bleed, which drains health over time, stacks with itself. So in addition to doing the dagger's high DPS, the bleed procs take hold draining further health, then build as they stack.

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Originally Posted by GoXu

there are lots of procs that some specific weapons have.
bleed is a dagger's proc which causes damage over time. think of it as poison
spears and lances have a proc which has armour break. this means that it reduces the enemy's armour resulting in you causing more damage.
plasmas have a lightning proc which acts similar to the spear and lance's proc but not as great.
there are some more procs but that's all i can think of on the spot.

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Is there a good source that details all of this information (i.e talons vs bows)? Also is there a way to see debuffs on the enemy?

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Originally Posted by Niveous

Is there a good source that details all of this information (i.e talons vs bows)? Also is there a way to see debuffs on the enemy?

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There are unfortunately no talons with procs. And the only bows are the ice-autos with a freeze proc, and blasters with a sort of microstun proc. There is a mostly complete list here: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...hat-do-they-do

Most debuffs have a visual effect like swirling purple haze, white stars, etc. but some are much harder to detect than others.

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Originally Posted by Niveous

Is there a good source that details all of this information (i.e talons vs bows)? Also is there a way to see debuffs on the enemy?

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when using a plasma, you can see the lightning.
when using a lance or spear, the stars under the enemy symbolise the armour broken.
when using a dagger, i presume you see droplets of blood coming out of the enemy. not sure exactly as i have hardly ever used a dagger before.
unfortunately, there is no full, complete list of all the procs and what they do.

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Originally Posted by GoXu

when using a plasma, you can see the lightning.
when using a lance or spear, the stars under the enemy symbolise the armour broken.
when using a dagger, i presume you see droplets of blood coming out of the enemy. not sure exactly as i have hardly ever used a dagger before.
unfortunately, there is no full, complete list of all the procs and what they do.

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Lances actually have a lightning debuff (tested in PvP watching target armor, also they drain a slight amount of mana which break armor does not do), so if they have the break armor stars, it is a visual bug.

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Originally Posted by Royce

Lances actually have a lightning debuff (tested in PvP watching target armor, also they drain a slight amount of mana which break armor does not do), so if they have the break armor stars, it is a visual bug.

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oh wow really? nice spotting and testing.

verry cool build..... assasins creed style :P

only fault i could pic up on (donno if its already been pointed out) is your spell rotation, you said to use lightning, weakness, nightmare, blessing, frostbite

i suggest using blessings first... blessing of might increases crit chance by 50% and makes all the spells in the rotation alot more effective.

You should really use debuffs before any damage skills (like lightning). It will make them more likely to hit and they will do more damage.
I'd go buff->weakness->nightmare->lightning->drain (if you have it)->ice/frost->fire