Suggested Changes to Engineer's Skills Protection and Force Shield

Forgive me if this is a double-posted thread. I just tried creating this thread from my STS forum app for Andoid, and poof, I couldn't find it once it was submitted. I will now do my best to recall exactly what I wrote a moment ago... :(

I am a bit surprised no one has suggested these changes following the recent chatter about the skills and the revelations regarding Star Legends' Armor mechanic. See Kamikazee's thread for reference:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...ght=kamikazees

The Engineer's skills Protection and Force Shield are in danger of becoming obsolete, if they have not already! This is due to the fact that these skills do not "scale" or become more effective as the player's level and stats increase. Please consider the following changes:

Protection:

1. Change Protection's Armor buff to a percentage increase rather than the current fixed increase. For example, Protection should provide the affected character a 5% Armor buff at level 1, a 10% buff at level 2, and an additional 10% buff per subsequent level to a max of 50% at level 6. That way, the skill will scale with the player as the game matures. Think of it this way; a level 6 Protection providing 60 additional Armor was great when you were level 10 or 15 with a max Armor of around 100, or so. At level 20 or 25, with an Armor total in the 200 to 300 range, or higher, not so much...

2. As others have suggested, change the interaction between multiple instances of Protection. Specifically, a lower-level instance of Protection should re-time but not override a higher-level instance (as it is currently reported to do). However, a higher-level instance of Protection should both re-time and override a lower-level instance. Same-level instances should only re-time. For example, a player with an active level 3 Protection buff should have their buff re-timed but not reduced by a level 1 or 2 Protection casting. However, casting a level 4 or higher Protection on the same character should both re-time and increase the buff to that of the level cast.

Force Shield:

1. As listed in #1 above, change Force Shield's Armor buff to a percentage increase rather than the current fixed increase. For example, Force Shield should provide the affected character a 10% Armor buff at level 1, a 20% buff at level 2, and an additional 20% buff per subsequent level to a max of 100% at level 6. That way, the skill will scale with the player as the game matures and be truly worthy of the skill's name.

2. Do NOT make the shield absorb damage (prevent the affected player from taking any damage at all), as some have suggested. The shield is not meant to be an impenetrable barrier, but rather a deflector or inertial dampener, as it were. A strong enough blast or impact should be felt through the shield, albeit significantly reduced. Instead, make the following change:

3. Make the shield more resilient. As it is, the shield is like a bubble, popped by the slightest of breezes! Rather than the current HP pool (of which the current values, up to a max of 75, should not be adjusted) which, once depleted, spells the end of the shield, make the shield's HP value more like a resistance or energy which must be exceeded by a single blow, before the shield will fail. For example, the average mob's attack (think Dynastar or CyCorp human, Red Sun pirate, or Numa prime dog or plant, etc.), which hits for about 25-50 points of damage, would be incapable of destroying a level 4 or higher Force Shield. However, a critical hit from the same or a normal/critical hit from a big baddie like a boss or Numa Prime Vular, would be able to destroy the shield with a single blow. If this change were made, we may actually see more shields lasting the whole 30 seconds!

4. Increase the mana per second (M/s) regen provided by a level 6 Force Shield to 3 M/s. For example, a level 1 through 3 Force Shield should provide 1 M/s and a level 4 or 5 Force Shield should provide 2 M/s, as they currently do. However, a level 6 Force Shield should be even more powerful, and should provide 3 M/s. Besides, I get the feeling we will need this additional mana regen as the game progresses!

Please note, the above suggested changes are not intended to overpower or "break" the Protection and Force Shield skills. Rather, they are intended to allow the skills to scale and prevent them becoming underpowered and obsolete as the game progresses, if they have not become so already. I love playing my Engineer, and wish to keep using and further develop these skills, but feel it would be impractical to do so given their current design.

Also, while not directly related to the skills Protection and Force Shield, many if not all of the game's buff/debuff skills should provide percentage adjustments rather than fixed-value increases. Think of the Commando's Increase Mass skill. Even a fixed 300 Armor increase will eventually become obsolete, whereas something like a 150-200% increase would not.

Thank you for taking the time to read my ramblings!! :) :D :p

Suggested armor percentage increases are rather... dramatic, though I do find some merit in the idea of a scaling increase.

I would argue an increase to the mana regen granted by shield is unrequired, given that a green geared Eng should rarely have trouble with mana on all but the longest Guardian fights and mana regen on trash is a simply matter of damage output vs speed. Any more regen and an Eng could simply use every specced ability on every cooldown, at which point the game is no longer a strategic use of resources but simply a button mash festival.

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Originally Posted by roguedubb:412498

Suggested armor percentage increases are rather... dramatic, though I do find some merit in the idea of a scaling increase.

I would argue an increase to the mana regen granted by shield is unrequired, given that a green geared Eng should rarely have trouble with mana on all but the longest Guardian fights and mana regen on trash is a simply matter of damage output vs speed. Any more regen and an Eng could simply use every specced ability on every cooldown, at which point the game is no longer a strategic use of resources but simply a button mash festival.

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If you have read kamikazees' armor study, the percentages are not as dramatic as they sound. Consider the following example; a level 26 Commando using full Sandstorm gear has an Armor rating of exactly 400. At the max percentage I have suggested, Protection would provide 200 additional points of armor, which would mitigate between 4 and 8 points (from a regular mob) of incoming damage. A level 26 Engineer using full Sunwalker gear has an Armor rating of about 280, or so. At the percentages I have suggested, Protection and Force Shield would provide 140 and 280 additional armor, for a total of 420 additional armor, which would mitigate between 8 and 16 points of incoming damage (regular mob). And remember, the Force Shield could still be broken by a strong enough hit, and in such a case would act as a "spike preventer". This mitigated damage may not seem so dramatic when you recall the regular mob deals approximately 25 to 50 points of damage per hit.

Regarding the additional 1 M/s I am proposing the Force Shield provide at level 6; I don't think this is such a radical idea, as a maxxed skill should provide significantly more than its previous levels. If you believe an additional 1 M/s would break the mana regen vs. skill use curve, then consider the curve already broken. Any player can purchase a Plat implant that provides such a boost, which is active 100% of the time. What I am proposing would make an additional 1 M/s active 66% of the time, at most, and then only for the Engineer.

Anyway, that's my opinion (backed up with as much fact as I can muster)! Thanks for feedback! :)

I agree with the change in Protection, but you are asking too much for Force Shield.

It actually IS meant to be some sort of Mana Shield, and not another Protection-like skill.

I could imagine Engineers being able to wear shields when it comes out and if your proposed change for BOTH skills are to come true, they may even have more armor than a Commando which shouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by ProSophist:412786

I agree with the change in Protection, but you are asking too much for Force Shield.

It actually IS meant to be some sort of Mana Shield, and not another Protection-like skill.

I could imagine Engineers being able to wear shields when it comes out and if your proposed change for BOTH skills are to come true, they may even have more armor than a Commando which shouldn't happen.

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Thanks for the response! Hmmm, food for thought...

I think we may need a dev to comment here if we are to know exactly what Force Shield was meant to be. However, it seems to me Force Shield is supposed to be more geared toward protection, as it provides double the Armor buff of Protection at max level (while it lasts, anyway!). At the levels provided, the mana regen buff seems like an afterthought, though I would agree that the shield has generally become a "mana shield" in practice.

Regarding the Armor buff given to the Engineer, consider the following:

The level 26 Engineer described in my post above has a base Armor rating of 280, and currently gets +60 from Protection and +120 from Force Shield, for a buffed total of 460. This would be exactly the same Armor rating as the level 26 Commando described above also with +60 from Protection. But you are correct. Add the Increase Mass buff, and the Commando's Armor rating for a to 760, significantly more than the Engineer.

Let's consider the Commando's max Increase Mass (300 additional Armor) the highest Armor buff that should be given, and therefore the top of the sliding scale, or 100%. That would put the current buffs provided by Force Shield and Protection at 40% and 20% that of Increase Mass, respectively. Maybe my recommended changes need to more in line with such a relationship.

I do not intend to disrupt the classes' relative buffs. Maybe I am asking too much... If you believe so, please make a specific recommendation and let's try to come to some sort of consensus STS may actually consider incorporating! If we can come to a consensus, I will edit to incorporate it into my OP.

Now, I want to see more posts from career/main Engies! Come on team, I'm pulling for all of us, here! :D

For Protection, I think 80%-100% armor at level 6 is plausible.

As for Force Shield, I honestly could see a lot of variety for this skill.

1. Turn it into a Mana Shield like PL's. Pretty self explanatory.

2. Increase the damage that it could absorb. After the shield breaks, your armor is increased by 50 per level for 3 seconds.

3. When shield is activated, instead of getting damage, you get healed by (n)% of the damage you are taking. Lasts for (n) seconds. % healed increases per level and duration increases every 2 levels.

4. Increase armor by (n) for (n) seconds and reflect (n)% of damage received.

I could probably put some more but those are the ones that I think would work the best with their current skills.

I support everything in this thread. That is all. Don't feel like getting into the math discussion.

And Force Shield being 75 damage absorb at max rank makes me lol when a standard non-boss crit would almost take it off. The absorption needs a buff, too.

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Originally Posted by bronislav84:413254

I support everything in this thread. That is all. Don't feel like getting into the math discussion.

And Force Shield being 75 damage absorb at max rank makes me lol when a standard non-boss crit would almost take it off. The absorption needs a buff, too.

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I greatly appreciate your support. That is all. I will not force you to do math if you don't want to.

And regarding your lol about Force Shield's durability, I could not agree more. What did you think of the suggested fix I made in the OP? The shield would not pop unless a single hit exceeded 75; i.e., lesser hits would "bounce" and would NEVER make the shield pop. In other words, the shield would not accumulate damage, and could only be taken down by a single hit larger than 75 (or whatever the value, based on level).

@ ProSophist
Thanks for your suggestions regarding the variety of other possible changes to Force Shield. I like them, particularly the reflected damage idea, but feel we need to keep it simple. Otherwise, I fear STS will not take my suggestions seriously.

Thanks, again people! Keep the feedback coming! ;)

For protection, I would like a simple 5 percent dodge per level. Shield should just absorb a % of damage for the duration. That way both skills would scale well and not be overpowered at low levels/useless at high.

I, too, agree with your stance, thequickone -- great ideas. Whether or not these changes get implemented in the said fashion is to be seen, but hopefully this will serve as a catalyst for a forthcoming over-haul that makes these skills more viable in various situations. We shall see! :)

I agree with Raulur that the best way to change Protection is to make it a % based on damage, not armor. I would like it to reduce something like 10%...30% damage for 5 seconds with a 10 second recharge. Then having two Engineers would be a good thing.

As for Force Shield, I'm not sure I like the idea it not popping unless a high single damage packet is dealt. That would seem to make it useless when encountering heavy-hitting enemies. What's wrong with it just absorbing 75 damage altogether? That would mean several small hits could pop it, or one larger hit could pop it. Either way, it would provide some damage mitigation and prevent some spikes.

Or, Force Shield could mix this idea with yours and absorb 50% damage, up to 75 points, then pop. Now that I think about it, that may be the best of both worlds. It would last longer then, prevent some spikes (but not all), and take reasonable damage.

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Originally Posted by Raulur:413523

For protection, I would like a simple 5 percent dodge per level. Shield should just absorb a % of damage for the duration. That way both skills would scale well and not be overpowered at low levels/useless at high.

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Thanks for your input! :) So, if I understand correctly, your first suggestion would have a level six Force Shield would grant 30 additional Dodge? If my understanding is accurate, I don't really see how a shield would help someone dodge a hit. Did the shield deflect the hit? If the player dodges, does the shield still take a hit? I believe too much of a dodge buff would overpower the skill (and fear the devs might agree).

Regarding your second suggestion; if the shield absorbed damage, would the player also receive damage? Could the shield still be destroyed before its time was up?

Regarding scaling; your first suggestion provides a (rather large) fixed Dodge buff and would not scale but would also not lose effectiveness. Your second suggestion would scale with increased damage received.

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Originally Posted by Ephemeris:413692

I, too, agree with your stance, thequickone -- great ideas. Whether or not these changes get implemented in the said fashion is to be seen, but hopefully this will serve as a catalyst for a forthcoming over-haul that makes these skills more viable in various situations. We shall see! :)

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Thank you for your support! My goal is to massage my suggestion into a forum consensus that can be presented to STS in a "the players have spoken" kind of way. I also vaguely recall Sam or another dev mentioning modifications to skills' functionality was being considered. Maybe these were the skills in question, and maybe my suggestions will reach the STS conference room... We certainly shall see! ;)

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Originally Posted by kamikazees:414027

I agree with Raulur that the best way to change Protection is to make it a % based on damage, not armor. I would like it to reduce something like 10%...30% damage for 5 seconds with a 10 second recharge. Then having two Engineers would be a good thing.

As for Force Shield, I'm not sure I like the idea it not popping unless a high single damage packet is dealt. That would seem to make it useless when encountering heavy-hitting enemies. What's wrong with it just absorbing 75 damage altogether? That would mean several small hits could pop it, or one larger hit could pop it. Either way, it would provide some damage mitigation and prevent some spikes.

Or, Force Shield could mix this idea with yours and absorb 50% damage, up to 75 points, then pop. Now that I think about it, that may be the best of both worlds. It would last longer then, prevent some spikes (but not all), and take reasonable damage.

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The simple fact I have attracted your attention means we are getting somewhere! While I understand where Raulur and you are coming from, I believe adjusting incoming damage directly with either skill is the wrong approach. Doing so would ignore the changes that STS has intentionally made to the functionality of SL's Armor mechanic (versus that of PL).

Let me offer this example, which I have drawn from your own Armor study (forgive me if my numbers are a bit off): Let's consider a level 26 Commando. Unequipped, our Com has an Armor rating of 5. Equipped with full Sandstorm gear and The Wastelander, our Com has an Armor of 400. Let's say 30 points of damage is coming in, and each 50 armor will reduce 1 point of damage. Our naked Com will take 30 and our desert Com will take 22 damage. If we use your suggestion and further reduce the incoming damage by, let's say 20%, the following would happen; If applied before modification by Armor, incoming damage would be reduced by an additional 6 points each. Our naked Com now takes 24 and our desert Com takes 16 damage. If applied after modification by Armor, our naked Com would receive a 6 point damage reduction, but our desert Com's damage would only be reduced by about 4 points. Our naked Com now takes 24 and our desert Com takes 18 damage. I either case, I believe the naked Com is getting too much of a benefit or the desert Com not enough. This would favor the lower spec over the higher, which should not be the case, and would not scale well.

I think we need to work with Armor, rather than against or without it, and think we can achieve a similar result with percentage increases to base Armor values. Such increases would scale, and would also preserve the relative strengths and weaknesses of the classes; i.e., a 50% increase to a Commando's base Armor would result in a significantly higher gain than for a similarly-leveled Operative (as should be the case), as well as differences in stats due to different level characters.

Regarding your suggested adjustment to Protection's timing, that sounds a lot like Increase Mass, doesn't it? I think the timing should stay as it is. Besides, two minutes of buff was very generous of STS!

Regarding Force Shield's current HP mechanic; the problem is, it already "absorbs" ("takes", really) 75 HP, and it still pops way too easily. I have a really hard time believing STS designed the shield to last only seconds once engaged with the enemy. As it is currently designed, it cannot provide damage or spike mitigation, as it does not prevent or modify incoming damage. These are the exact reasons I made the suggestions I did in my OP.

I think there may be something to your last suggestion, but I think I need to hear more. Maybe some specific examples or scenarios describing how it would function in battle. I'm a big fan of compromise, and have no problem giving a little if it will mean putting a superior idea in front of STS!


Thanks so much everyone! Keep 'em coming! :o

Just a thought but why couldn't shield do an aoe knockdown damage when it pops? Similar to the way tech armor works in mass effect 2

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Originally Posted by thequickone

I either case, I believe the naked Com is getting too much of a benefit or the desert Com not enough... This would favor the lower spec over the higher, which should not be the case, and would not scale well.

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I'm not sure I follow. If each Com had his damage reduced by a % before armor, then they get the same benefit, no?

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Originally Posted by thequickone

i.e., a 50% increase to a Commando's base Armor would result in a significantly higher gain than for a similarly-leveled Operative (as should be the case),...

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Why should that be the case? It's an interesting proposal, but it makes me think: should Empathy and Transferrence also heal higher hp characters more?

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Originally Posted by thequickone

Regarding your suggested adjustment to Protection's timing, that sounds a lot like Increase Mass, doesn't it? I think the timing should stay as it is. Besides, two minutes of buff was very generous of STS!

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I would rather see the skill make its impact over a short period of time than do little (or basically nothing!) over a long period of time. I don't like having a skill that's used once every two minutes, but maybe that's just me.

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Originally Posted by thequickone

As it is currently designed, it cannot provide damage or spike mitigation, as it does not prevent or modify incoming damage.

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I don't think it should allow Engineers to tank anything. If it absorbed 75 damage (really absorbed it) it would provide some spike protection, but burst quickly if the Engineer had aggro long.

As for the %, the more I think about it the more it sounds good. I'd leave the current 25...75 progression intact, and have it absorb a flat 50% of that. The remainder damage goes to the Engineer. So, if he's fighting Numa 1 burrowers who hit for 26 a piece, the Engineer would take 13 damage and his shield takes 13 damage. The level 6 shield would burst on the 6th hit (75+ damage dealt to the shield), with the Engineer taking 16 damage on the last hit. Fighting something like Guardian, who can hit for 150+ damage, the Engineer's shield would pop on the first hit, but absorb 75/xxx damage. That helps prevent the spike, but then the Engineer can't cast it again for 45 seconds.

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Originally Posted by thequickone:413307

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Originally Posted by bronislav84:413254

I support everything in this thread. That is all. Don't feel like getting into the math discussion.

And Force Shield being 75 damage absorb at max rank makes me lol when a standard non-boss crit would almost take it off. The absorption needs a buff, too.

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I greatly appreciate your support. That is all. I will not force you to do math if you don't want to.

And regarding your lol about Force Shield's durability, I could not agree more. What did you think of the suggested fix I made in the OP? The shield would not pop unless a single hit exceeded 75; i.e., lesser hits would "bounce" and would NEVER make the shield pop. In other words, the shield would not accumulate damage, and could only be taken down by a single hit larger than 75 (or whatever the value, based on level).

@ ProSophist
Thanks for your suggestions regarding the variety of other possible changes to Force Shield. I like them, particularly the reflected damage idea, but feel we need to keep it simple. Otherwise, I fear STS will not take my suggestions seriously.

Thanks, again people! Keep the feedback coming! ;)

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You're welcome dude. I like the bounce idea, too.

I like your Idea, and I like it A LOT! Therefore you deserve a BIG +1

What kamikazees said about the % absorb for shield is similar to what I had in mind. I was thinking more of a 25% absorb that lasts for the whole duration with no "pop", but either would be better than it is now.

As far as Protection, 30% dodge is probably excessive. Even 2.5 dodge per point would be pretty good, for a total of 15% at level 6. If you dodge an attack, you take zero damage. So taking zero damage 15% of the time would be much better than the one or two points of damage mitigation that it offers now. So I'm talking changing the armor buff into a dodge buff.

Here's how dodge works, at least I think. First there is a hit or miss roll. If there is a hit, then a dodge roll is ran based on the person's dodge rating. If there is no dodge, then there is a damage roll, and then that value is reduced by armor. If the attack is dodged, then there is no damage roll and DODGE appears over your head. This is why I liked dodge over armor in PL. In the long run 15% dodge will be quite a bit better than 60 armor. Sure you can still fall victim to 1 shot deaths, but thats where the proposed changes to shield would come in.

Good suggestion would like to see this implemented.

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Originally Posted by Kraze

Just a thought but why couldn't shield do an aoe knockdown damage when it pops? Similar to the way tech armor works in mass effect 2

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That's a very interesting idea, and would certainly put more "force" in Force Shield! Thanks for the response! :)
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Originally Posted by kamikazees

I'm not sure I follow. If each Com had his damage reduced by a % before armor, then they get the same benefit, no?

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I don't believe both the naked and desert Coms SHOULD experience the same effect. I think the Com, or character for that matter, with the highest Armor rating should get the greatest increase and effect. That way, the unique differences between the classes or experience levels would not be disrupted.

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Originally Posted by kamikazees

Why should that be the case? It's an interesting proposal, but it makes me think: should Empathy and Transferrence also heal higher hp characters more?

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For the same reason as listed for the naked/desert Com example. I fear disrupting the unique differences between the classes/experience levels would cause STS to balk at considering the change. Empathy and Transference already provide massive heals, and have no problem keeping even the highest HP Coms topped-off. I understand your example, and see where you are going with it. However, I think the difference is the Engie's heals are currently scaling well, even with the highest stat-bearing classes, whereas Protection and Force Shield are not.

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Originally Posted by kamikazees

I would rather see the skill make its impact over a short period of time than do little (or basically nothing!) over a long period of time. I don't like having a skill that's used once every two minutes, but maybe that's just me.

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I think we may have to agree to disagree regarding skill timing. For the Com, I feel brief skills with massive buffs are appropriate. I just don't feel the same for the Engie. I prefer to have my Engie bathing themselves and others in buffing/regenerative light that has a more lasting effect. However, I concede that Protection does not need to last quite as long, especially considering it cools down in 12 seconds and no longer stacks. I would gladly give up one minute of Protection's duration for increased effectiveness! Also, I wish to avoid blurring the lines between the different classes skills. I think the skill timing for Force Shield is perfect!

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Originally Posted by kamikazees

I don't think it should allow Engineers to tank anything. If it absorbed 75 damage (really absorbed it) it would provide some spike protection, but burst quickly if the Engineer had aggro long.

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I strongly agree that the Engie should not tank anything! I do not intend to make the Engie a tank with the suggested changes, and if incorporated, I do not believe they would. Keep in mind, even if my suggested changes were made, a single blow from a boss/sub-boss or a critical hit would likely still take down the shield, even at skill level 6. What my suggested changes would do is prevent the shield from popping when I, and I believe many others, feel it should not. If you have spent any time playing an Engie, you have almost certainly experienced the moment your shield was taken down by a junk mob almost immediately after you cast it, which left you saying "Aww, man! That's BS!!". I seek to eliminate those moments.

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Originally Posted by kamikazees

As for the %, the more I think about it the more it sounds good. I'd leave the current 25...75 progression intact, and have it absorb a flat 50% of that. The remainder damage goes to the Engineer. So, if he's fighting Numa 1 burrowers who hit for 26 a piece, the Engineer would take 13 damage and his shield takes 13 damage. The level 6 shield would burst on the 6th hit (75+ damage dealt to the shield), with the Engineer taking 16 damage on the last hit. Fighting something like Guardian, who can hit for 150+ damage, the Engineer's shield would pop on the first hit, but absorb 75/xxx damage. That helps prevent the spike, but then the Engineer can't cast it again for 45 seconds.

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This idea is growing on me, as well! And I also believe we should leave the shield's HP progression intact. From your example, the shield would be more resilient and would reduce damage. However, it would also side-step the Armor buff by reducing incoming damage directly, which I still think we should avoid. Maybe have the shield take 50% of the incoming damage and have the Armor buff (which I am proposing both scale and become more robust) be responsible for modifying the damage delivered to the shield-bearing Engie...

Thank you for the repeated feedback! I really enjoy the pleasant discourse. :encouragement:
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Originally Posted by bronislav84

You're welcome dude. I like the bounce idea, too.

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Thanks, again! The more I think about the "bounce" idea, the more I like it. Bring your calculator and do some math with us next time! ;)
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Originally Posted by nazgulking

I like your Idea, and I like it A LOT! Therefore you deserve a BIG +1

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Thank you very much for the support! Let me know if you have any ideas or suggested improvements of your own. And I really appreciate the BIG +1!! :victorious:
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Originally Posted by Raulur

What kamikazees said about the % absorb for shield is similar to what I had in mind. I was thinking more of a 25% absorb that lasts for the whole duration with no "pop", but either would be better than it is now.

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A shield that doesn't pop, you say...... How radical of you to suggest such a thing! Still, I'd like to stay away from what could be viewed as side-stepping the shield's Armor buff. Also, a 25% absorb would only scale with increased enemy damage, which may prove to be less effective than a scaling Armor buff in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Raulur

As far as Protection, 30% dodge is probably excessive. Even 2.5 dodge per point would be pretty good, for a total of 15% at level 6. If you dodge an attack, you take zero damage. So taking zero damage 15% of the time would be much better than the one or two points of damage mitigation that it offers now.

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I still don't really see how the shield would increase dodge, unless... Is it a slippery shield?? Joking aside, I am liking the Dodge buff idea less and less.

Thanks for coming back for another round! Let's make it a trifecta!! :wink:
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Originally Posted by Cascade

Good suggestion would like to see this implemented.

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Thanks, man! Your support means a lot to me. You are a man of few words, but each word is loaded with infinite wisdom. :peaceful:
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OK, I think it's time we switch gears a bit. I really appreciate everyone's feedback, hard work, and what I can tell has been the result of some serious thought! Now I think we need to start boiling down the content of this thread into some concrete conclusions.

First, based on Raulur's most recent response, maybe we need a consensus... Do you believe Force Shield should provide an Armor buff (scaling, of course) or absorb a set amount of damage? I think we need to make this distinction, as I do not believe the shield should be capable of doing both. Remember, this is an original game of its own, so don't let the performance/functionality of other games' force shields cloud your judgment. My vote is for......Armor buff! What, you're not surprised I'd vote that way?! Also, do we need a consensus regarding Protection?

Second, I have an idea regarding how to pose the suggested changes to these skills to the STS devs. Let's start with the existing skill descriptions for Protection and Force Shield and edit the language to reflect the changes we would like to see. For this exercise, I am using the skills' level 6 descriptions, which are:
Protection: 15 energy, 10 sec. cool-down, 12m range, 120 sec. duration, +60 armor value to all group members in range.
Force Shield: 10 energy, 45 sec. cool-down, 30 sec. duration, +120 armor value, +2 energy regen, (shield bursts when it takes 75 damage).
I'd like to set the following rule for this exercise: Try to keep your revised description to about the same length as STS's current description. That way, if you strongly feel the skill should have new functionality, you will have to give something up to get it!

Here's my edited language:
Protection: 15 energy, 10 sec. cool-down, 12m range, 60 sec. duration, +30% armor value to all group members in range.
Force Shield: 10 energy, 45 sec. cool-down, 30 sec. duration, +50% armor value, +3 energy regen, (shield bursts with a hit of 75+ damage).

Let's keep the ball rolling. Enjoy! :D

Force shield and Protection would not have anything to do with each other by my thinking. Kamakazees' idea is my favorite for Force Shield, and I propose just flat changing Protection to buff the dodge stat instead of the armor stat. The dodge mechanic already exists, so this should be a simple change.

Protection: 15 energy, 10 sec. cool-down, 12m range, 60 sec. duration, +15 dodge to all group members in range.

If we are just going to modify the way each skill buffs armor, then we are better off just leaving protection alone and asking that engineer skills stack again. I would take stacking paired with an empathy nerf any day.

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Originally Posted by thequickone

Protection: 15 energy, 10 sec. cool-down, 12m range, 60 sec. duration, +30% armor value to all group members in range.
Force Shield: 10 energy, 45 sec. cool-down, 30 sec. duration, +50% armor value, +3 energy regen, (shield bursts with a hit of 75+ damage).

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My suggestions are similar but damage based for the level 6 skills:

Protection: 15 energy, 20 sec. cool-down, 12m range, 12 sec. duration, 20% less damage to all group members in range.
Force Shield: 10 energy, 45 sec. cool-down, 30 sec. duration, absorbs 50% damage, +2 energy regen, (shield bursts when it absorbs 75 damage).

Plus 1 to this change. The shield is next to worthless at higher levels. I only use it in between mobs, which makes no sense then. If I try to use it during mobs, the bubble pops, and I'm left with a negative investment in mana.

I would like Force shield a lot more if it was a sustainable ability.

Hmm. Protection is fine as it is, despite what people say there are some pretty good ways of using these skills, and theres plenty of stuff hidden down the line in the actions area that ends up not being used anyway... so dont really believe any of the current skills require tweaking... if at all prot lasts too long haha... ive yet to see one who keeps it cast consistently, most engies havent even figured out when to cast it, and those who have discard it for a better skill (another damage one?) ... would like to see engies being more of a support class in the way that engies get skills like kinetic reservoir or precision, ie class specific buffing abilities, makes the classes a little more interdependent, right now engies are moving out to do more damage and worrying about dps and what not

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Originally Posted by Slant

Hmm. Protection is fine as it is, despite what people say there are some pretty good ways of using these skills, and theres plenty of stuff hidden down the line in the actions area that ends up not being used anyway... so dont really believe any of the current skills require tweaking... if at all prot lasts too long haha... ive yet to see one who keeps it cast consistently, most engies havent even figured out when to cast it, and those who have discard it for a better skill (another damage one?) ... would like to see engies being more of a support class in the way that engies get skills like kinetic reservoir or precision, ie class specific buffing abilities, makes the classes a little more interdependent, right now engies are moving out to do more damage and worrying about dps and what not

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Even at lvl 5, it lasts less than a fraction of a second in a Slouch-O mob, and it's gone almost as soon as it's cast. The only reason to cast it at those stages is for the mana buff. And even then, it's an amazing +1 m/s.

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Originally Posted by Dracula:454488

Plus 1 to this change. The shield is next to worthless at higher levels. I only use it in between mobs, which makes no sense then. If I try to use it during mobs, the bubble pops, and I'm left with a negative investment in mana.

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First and foremost, thank you Dracula for casting Revive on my thread! ;) I've been meaning to bring it back to life for a while, but have just been waiting for the right time. Now will do! :)

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Originally Posted by Deathpunch:454868

I would like Force shield a lot more if it was a sustainable ability.

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Agreed. What do you think of my revised skill wording? If you think it needs tweaks, please take a crack at it! Thanks for posting! ;)

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Originally Posted by Slant

Hmm. Protection is fine as it is, despite what people say there are some pretty good ways of using these skills, and theres plenty of stuff hidden down the line in the actions area that ends up not being used anyway... so dont really believe any of the current skills require tweaking... if at all prot lasts too long haha... ive yet to see one who keeps it cast consistently, most engies havent even figured out when to cast it, and those who have discard it for a better skill (another damage one?) ... would like to see engies being more of a support class in the way that engies get skills like kinetic reservoir or precision, ie class specific buffing abilities, makes the classes a little more interdependent, right now engies are moving out to do more damage and worrying about dps and what not

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Thank you for your feedback! :D Would you mind giving a bit more explanation about why you think Protection is fine as it is? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts! At early levels, 60 extra Armor (max, mind you) may be fine. However, I believe its effectiveness really falls off at higher levels (hence many, including me, dropping it at respec). Also, keep in mind 60 extra Armor only offers between 1 and 3 damage mitigated per hit, depending on the mob/campaign (make sure you read kamikazees' thread if you have not already, link in OP above). Trust me, I don't like the idea of tinkering with the game's original design or intent. I would not have suggested these changes if I did not believe they were absolutely necessary! In fact, if Protection were changed as I suggested, it could even be less effective than its current benefit, depending on the level/loadout of the target. Regarding Protection lasting too long, make sure you read my revised skill wording, where I suggest Protection only last one minute. Finally, if you really want Engies to focus more on support, give them support skills that are more functional than their attack skills! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dracula:455005

Even at lvl 5, it lasts less than a fraction of a second in a Slouch-O mob, and it's gone almost as soon as it's cast. The only reason to cast it at those stages is for the mana buff. And even then, it's an amazing +1 m/s.

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Umm... I think you've mixed up Protection and Force Shield. :o Slant was talking about Protection. However, I totally agree with your assessment of Force Shield. If STS will not consider my suggested changes, they may have to change its animation so that it really looks like a soap bubble! :eek:

EDIT (2011-10-20, 20:56): Hit submit before I was done! Grabbed another quote, and corrected some spelling/grammar problems... I know, ever the perfections! :p