Tanking: Does it even matter?

Um well now I know that hitting enter after putting in a title posts the thread instead of going to the text box...sorry for sarcastic title that was just the first draft of it.

Soooo onto the real part of this.

After tanking my way through Slouch for the 5th time I have to ask: are tanks in this game supposed to have to madly spam skills to keep engies from pulling off us? Now matter how hard I try the second after I cast a taunt it seems that the mobs are off attacking someone else. This could be due to the fact that I'm running with lvl 30's at lvl 25-26(numa runs go just fine with no issues of players pulling off me) but even tossing out all 3 of my taunts on one boss wont keep their focus for longer than a few seconds. I'll now go into my skill build so that anyone better than me can tell me where I'm going wrong as I have tried many of the builds listed on the forums, from the W.A.L.L to the recent GW, GS, get em on the wall, and Sing build, but just cannot seem to hold agro for crap. So now here I am posting my build for the world to see. Hope you like it and post comments.

build:
2-5-0-0
6-0-4-6
0-0-0(dont have BB yet but it will have 6 when done for combo)

Rotation and logic behind choices:

Run in pop GW to gather up mobs to start off. Hit GS to deal first AOE and get mobs under control, followed by FH as a filler for extra dmg, and rounding out with NS for AOE and knockdown. By the time I've gone through the skills once with proper spacing The CD on GW is up and rdy to go again for the next mobs. I have KR to regen mana if necessary.

Gravity Well-6: I take GW for the dmg and pull effect. Since I use a HW on mobs and rifle on bosses the pull gets them where I need them for splash dmg

Graviton Slam-6: Solid dmg AOE skill even though its effect is suited for kiters or pvp. Best used when clustered as it appears the AOE is centered on the target like Sing so I use it after GW.

Force Hammer-2: I put two points in bec the base dmg is really bad IMO but the 5 sec CD is nice because you can use it in between the 8 sec CDs to keep one of those up at all times. I really just treat this as a filler skill. Might reduce to one point in future.

Neutron Stomp-5: Solid dmg, AOE, and knockdown. I choose NS over Sing because of back in my WoW days. In WoW there aren't many pushback skills and they are considered taboo in dungeons and raids because it messes up clusters and makes AOE more difficult. I have also come to find that Sing can be difficult to properly use(as the build I tested from the forums yesterday used it heavily) sometimes when you have a group that is higher level than the tank trying to GW the mobs to a wall can be tricky what with 5 people just spamming skills left and right, knocking mobs all over the map, stunning mobs the tank is targeting forcing him to re-target, ect... NS may do less dmg but it is more easily controlled than Sing, has a shorter CD, and no cast time.

Kinetic Reservoir-4: The reason for KR is so that I can keep going and going and going and going and going. After running a few tests I found that even from a revive having this maxed was a waste of points. At level 4 you can have low mana and keep spamming this between mobs and you'll be fine. 3 points did produce some issues with long hauls where I would let my mana drop low so I'ma keep at 4.

This completes my build. Try it out if you'd like I'm open to any critique but keep trolling to the minimum plz. HMU in game on any of my toons if your looking for one more.

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Originally Posted by Rob Prose

Um well now I know that hitting enter after putting in a title posts the thread instead of going to the text box...

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Thanks for the heads up ;-)

Yes

Edit: now i see where this post is going. This reply isn't relevant now but i make some good points. Sorry Rob.

For me, as an Op, i don't NEED a tank, nor an engi, heck, I don't even NEED to run with anyone. But, it sure makes it alot funner, quicker, and easier, and my stim count doesnt take a beating. I really notice when there is a good engi in the crowd, and same with a tank. I can think of a few tanks that make bad engis look good, because nobody is getting hit, and they only need to throw down like 4 heals a run.

A GOOD tank is important, and vital to a quick successful run. A tank that doesnt take aggro is the same as a dps engi, or an Op with a shield and armor implant. Putting out some damage, but not using the toon to its full potential. This looks like a nice build, and once you hit level 30, you will find keeping aggro easier in slouch, I bet. Also take note, if someone is using elixirs or not, as they are very hard to keep aggro off of.

On that note, I notice commandos with a x2 damage elixir going have no trouble at all keeping agg.

On your thread title alone, yes tanking is important and needed.

IMO, tanking in SL is generally the same as PL; it's not only purely taking damage, but also about crowd control.

That said, as far as SL is concerned, the commando has the most crowd control and AoE skills I believe; knockdowns, pushbacks, pulling, and AoE normal attacks through Heavy Weapons. That, IMO, falls under tanking.

Ok so the actual post is finished MB bout that.

You have a good build, your skill usage and purpose supports it. Builds are a matter of personal preference, IMO. Especially now with very limited skill points.

In terms of tanking/taking aggro, no I don't believe commandos are supposed to be spam machines to try and keep aggro to himself.

The way I see it, there is no such thing as a threat factor or aggro-stacking. Meaning, you either have aggro or you don't, and Taunt gives you aggro, even for a second or two. In order to capitalize on this, you use aggro skills when needed only, ie. when you don't have aggro.

Seeing if you don't have aggro is relatively easier in SL. One would be to take a look at whom the boss is facing to, to make this easier to spot, step away from the group and be on the opposite side. That way, if aggro is on you, it's easy to see and you don't need to spam your aggro skills. If it isn't on you, then still easy to see and use aggro skills.

I also don't believe that aggro from skills increases with higher skill level. This is the main reason why my aggro gaining skills are kept at 1. They worked as needed in Numa and currently in Slouch.

Oh so its a taunt-when-needed kinda thing OK that makes sense. I had just been going by the assumption that the mechanics were similar to WoW but STS really went all out on these MMMORPGs of theirs didn't they. Thanks for the advice Ell I owe ya one.

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Originally Posted by Ellyidol:423792

On your thread title alone, yes tanking is important and needed.

IMO, tanking in SL is generally the same as PL; it's not only purely taking damage, but also about crowd control.

That said, as far as SL is concerned, the commando has the most crowd control and AoE skills I believe; knockdowns, pushbacks, pulling, and AoE normal attacks through Heavy Weapons. That, IMO, falls under tanking.

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In my opinion, it is much more difficult to hold aggrieve in SL, especially when grouped with high-dps ops. My PVP 31 bear has it much easier in PL, although I might revise that statement when my commando is at level 30 with level 30 gear.

tanking in any mmorpg is usually about spamming tons of skills. Its generally the hardest type of class to play (dps being second and healer types being third).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rob Prose

Oh so its a taunt-when-needed kinda thing OK that makes sense. I had just been going by the assumption that the mechanics were similar to WoW but STS really went all out on these MMMORPGs of theirs didn't they. Thanks for the advice Ell I owe ya one.

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No worries. I don't think it's as complicated as WoW with all the hate factors and actual figures :)

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Originally Posted by Growwle

In my opinion, it is much more difficult to hold aggrieve in SL, especially when grouped with high-dps ops. My PVP 31 bear has it much easier in PL, although I might revise that statement when my commando is at level 30 with level 30 gear.

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Yes, agree. Aggro in SL seems to switch quite easily. It is, however, pretty compensated with the amount of aggro-gaining skills we have. Which reinforces why I don't agree on spamming aggro skills, but tactical timing on them so it fully maximizes aggro time on each skill.

Sometimes aggro just doesn't stick though, it goes to that full DPS type Op. May be best to ask him to tone it down :p

As for you skill build, its great. You see, its IMPOSSIBLE to object to it. You gave reasons supporting it. And its your opinoin on build.

Having run all three classes, I'd agree that Commando and keeping aggro seems to be the most difficult feat by class. Ops can burn single targets down with a decent build and little knowledge of in-game mechanics. Engie's can keep the team healed with empathy and trans, and it's not really a challenge, you just need to stay in good proximity of your team.

Keeping aggro on a Commando isn't really as simple. You need to watch everyone, time it, take other's buffs and the enemies de-buffs into consideration, and if anyone is using elixir, it all goes out the window.

"Tank, you need not; unless at a boss, you are. When fighting regular mobs with your team, little danger, there is. Focus on your damage and crowd-control to maximize efficiency and quickness of runs, you shall."

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Originally Posted by Nightarcher:434751

"Tank, you need not; unless at a boss, you are. When fighting regular mobs with your team, little danger, there is. Focus on your damage and crowd-control to maximize efficiency and quickness of runs, you shall."

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Omg, rotfl, spot on, night! And I mean the impression AND the info XD

Don't forget the damage and dps of a lvl 30 ( which you said ur running with) is much higher than u at lvl 25! So when u hit the boss with taunt it will gain aggro but they are overwhelmed with higher dps and higher damage, which will take ur aggro away.

I think u said u don't use singularity! This skill is high damage at max lvl and aoe! You don't need to fear the scatter effect if you place the mobs and bosses (except for dir.bot) between you and a wall. you control where they go which is against that wall!

Yeah I agree with Lord and Nightarcher, most of the functional game play in SL is grinding out exp and farming. In this context, a good tank can help speed up things and keep their team's overall efficiency up. By getting the baddies in a group pinned against the wall and pounding them with cannon fire you can also add the maximum damage that a mando can dish out to the overall groups attack power. I am a believer in the crowd control aspect of a good tank. If the baddies can't catch their breath long enough to decide who to hit then they are about to die.

While sing does have a higher damage output than NS and GS the unpredictable nature of mobs, knock back skills, and threat from players 5 levels higher than the tank causes me to believe that it is better to use stomp after GW because it clusters the mobs allowing the engs and OPs to unleash their AoEs as well on a cluster that will always be stable. I tried the kite to wall build for several days but found that, due to the random nature of player builds, getting mobs clustered to a wall was actually more difficult than running in, popping GW, and tanking in the middle of a room.

Well this is just my thought but maybe you need a stronger weapon the enemies always go after the one that deals more damage and you should spam singularity,force hammer and that purple gas skill( forgot the name)
1. Even though singularity is used to attack groups it works well to get attention of just one person,people dont like getting knocked back
2. Force hammer is a good skill cause it damages and taunts at the same time and if you upgrade it enough its stronger than your highest critical hit
3. The purple gas skill is excellent because it can damage the person as if your shooting them( its slow but really gets their attention
4. Like I said stronger weapon=more attention so you should look in the auction and buy a good weapon stronger than the one you have now and possibly buy a damage enhancer implant( reallyexpense though,crazy people) and have the aggro pouring in.

And if you dont believe me I stole attention from a level 30 engineer so yeah or look at other's postings and follow theirs its okay my advice isnt perfect

What thoughtful, intelligent posts regarding tanking mechanics. Very encouraging to read. I'm a 28 mando, and so far have no trouble keeping aggro. One thought, however, that nobody mentioned yet. The artform of aggro management by the tank. Ensuring that you aren't over taunting to the point of having to over use (waste) pots, and being a mana drain on the poor engs. Keep the great thoughts coming :)

Straticus 28 Commando

hmm tanking is very important, as it saves everyone on stims and as important as engie healing, miner, guardian and rebel all need good tanks. Every turret or flower that targets an engie or op hurts them more. The logic of tanking is to get hit and lose health on behalf of the engie and op, so every bit makes the team faster and more mana efficient. If there is a lot of potters, for example an engie or op who cast four skills in rapid sucession, then taunting wont work too well, but instead of using all the taunts together, use one at a time, spread out to every single time the boss changes his attention to someone else.
Now about your build, you have a good mix of buffs, skills and damage skills, you have a particular way of using them and thats cool, and yes, there needs to be some kind of co-ordination in the group about the action skills. You dont need to put singularity on 6, even a 1 helps, used very sparingly, as rarely hopefully as engie uses revive. Apart from taunting, another important thing a commando has to do is control the battle. So gravity well and singularity are vital in getting mobs where you need them, and singularity is also a last ditch effort to save someone being hit if taunting doesnt work.

About Nebulous, its only helpful if you go to to toe with enemies, otherwise skip it

smh , tanking is a crucial part of any efficient run . sure they are not needed how ever when a team has a good tank who is able to keep agro , the team is able to perform faster ( more efficent time/run ratio),use less stims ( Makes wallets happier ) and overall a fluid experience.

to sum it up, tanking is very important

uUMM I dont play sl but ik it is one of the most impotant skills of the game

Honestly, the aggro and damage taken in SL gets spread around the party pretty well. The only time you're truly tanking is if you're at a boss and hold the aggro, or if you're soloing.

That said, Commandos in a party: group and direct mobs, knock them down to reduce the party's damage taken, and dish out very good AOE and decent single-target damage.

What gun are you using... The best for agro pulling would be heavy rifle.