Upcoming changes, the future of the game economy, and the removal luck

Hello all, it's time for an update regarding some stuff in Dark Legends!

Regarding Luck
Originally, Dark Legends did not have luck in the game, and drop rates were appropriate. With the reboot of Dark Legends we figured it was a good time to shift our elixirs back into the store, and expose luck as we have in the other titles. It didn't take long however, before it began to trivialize pink drops and begin to create economic issues. Pink prices have dropped dangerously low, and with gold so very abundant in the game right now this is going to be a problem that only gets worse the longer it's left alone.

There isn't a quick fix for this, but one step is going to be the removal of luck from Dark Legends again. The pinks that already exist and the gold accrued obviously will remain as is, but once the update goes live early next week that should begin to change. once the new content comes online with its new pinks and vanity drops we should see it begin to smooth over a bit.

What does this mean for me?
It means that re-rolls won't be possible anymore, and it also means that the average drop rate for pinks and vanities will come up slightly. Originally the pink drop rate was around 2%, and we had to tone it down to 1.1% or so because luck was wrecking havoc on the pinks dropping in the world. Even with the change it wasn't enough.

Expect Pinks to return to somewhere around 2% to compensate for the removal of luck, and vanities to get a small bump. At a later date we may see another buff get added to the Elixirs that provide player benefits as well.

Gold in Dark Legends
With the next expansion, there is going to be a change in the primary method that gold is obtained in the game. At present gold comes from a large number of sources: running dungeon content, allies, and transactions between players. The change that will be coming is going to see a more explicit direction on where to get gold and where to get XP in regards to the game specific systems. Transactions between players will not be affected.

Allies are going to become the more dominant gold rewarding action to do in Dark Legends, and the amount of XP that allies award will decrease and be shifted slightly into dungeon iterations and initial completion.

On the flip side dungeon content is going to lessen the gold reward for the flat iteration completion, as well as remove larger piles of gold from in dungeon kills and exploration.

EDIT: There is a strong community discussion getting started by this point, so please share your opinion on the XP/Gold in this thread, I will read it. The wonderful thing about working with the community is we can stop something from happening that may not be to the benefit of the game. Nothing is in stone!

EDIT 2: XP will not be adjusted negatively as a part of these upcoming changes anymore, but some gold shifts will still occur. Not large amounts, but enough to make it noteworthy.

An Example
For the sake of argument I will fabricate some values based loosely on what we have in game right now.

Allies all have 3 jobs, but I will focus on just two. The 30 second job yields say 12xp and 50g. After this change this job will yield something closer to 4xp, and 81g (these are just approximations for the sake of argument and not indicative of the algorithm or values actually used). The 24 hour job may previously awarded 56xp and 260g, now it would something more around 20xp and 462g. Again, just examples to show you the kind of offset.

On the dungeon side, the current iteration reward is 5xp and 20g. After the change this will likely be 8xp and 10g. Netting a bit more xp which effectively results in a better net for xp faster if you're straight grinding. EDIT: This will likely not be the case anymore after thinking through some other ideas

Additionally monsters in dungeons will have a chance to drop gold, and will not always drop 3g-5g as they do now, and chest gold will be reduced by about 50% on average.

As a reminder, LUCK will be removed from all available elixirs beginning early next week.

Thanks for reading this guys, I'm looking forward to making these changes and finishing up the new content for you all! Thanks for being awesome and understanding as some of these things shift, and also note that not everything is set in stone and is subject to change.

-Carapace

YAY luck removal! finally i can start selling my overload of pinks in ah.

Sounds good, I'll be looking forward to this as usual. Let's get er done.

wow, tons of changes, and rightfully so. Luck was causing havoc because people were hunting vanities thus changing the mechanic of competitive edge. Now DL is a vanity paced game, not like PL or SL where the items (weapons and armor) are king and vanities are secondary.

Would it be beneficial to have a vanity elixer? just a question tho. (just because im a curios fellow)

Gems are the armor of the game that fuels PvP so I understand that you guys want to place the focus on weapons and gold (Duh!). But vanities are just that, and soon will have the change in all games to eliminate vanity cap bonuses in all games, hopefully SL gets the same (would be nice for my lv 25 to wear my arbiter stuff). This can help many people down the line when DL fuels the OCD in all of us. Gold needs to increase in value, so what better way to achieve that if more world drops have vanities, and bosses only give pinks to focus on level completion since luck re-rolls will go away.

Mmmmmm I like the sound of this change. As I see it the economy is just in ruins. Pinks are worth practically nothing,while vanities are selling for millions. It's getting down right ridiculous!

Since luck is being removed from the elixirs will the prices drop or stay the same?

Edit: Will this new update bring the end of the Solstice event?

I see my pink collection will be worth a bit more after :)

Like the removal of luck but looks like the game will be more of a grind now.

/whine

I enjoyed everything up until the point of the Xp and Gold changes. It seems the game will turn towards a more grind to level like the other games. I seriously enjoyed how non-grinders could keep up by simply using the allies. I don't want to HAVE to grind to keep up with players that play for hours. I enjoyed the fact that I could easily catch up to hardcore grinders after they capped.

Yes, we will still receive Xp from allies, but now I will probably catch up in two weeks rather than one. I enjoyed the easy leveling because I'm not a fan of Xp farming. I simply bothered with Xp so I could get to cap and PVP.

/endwhine

The luck elixir by all means remove it.

Wow lots of changes... Looking forward to the luck removal; however, Not to sure about the affect on gold/xp. Personally i enjoy the way it is now. But o well. I will still play regardless because of how awesome the game is ;)

It'll definitely be a long time, even with the luck elixir gone, before the Eco balances out. Just because there are so many pinks now. But all the changes are good. I'm not too happy now about having to actually work for the xp now lmao, but it was really needed. Maybe we can finally put the MM back into this ORPG

Actually I dunno why the exp is being changed when the gold was the problem. Exp was fine. Decrease Gold in the manners you propose and dont touch exp in any form.
Problem solved.
And the economy will be solved once the level cap comes out and the surplus of pinks become obsolete. Which I hear from a busy bee is soon.

If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Why in gamer's god's names would you change the exp? Gold gain and few gold sinks were the problems... NOT exp. This makes absolutely no sense.

I swear if its not one thing they mess up, its another. Smh.

Hmm, not so sure i'll like this update. Removing luck is fine with me, it's the xp/gold reward changes that bother me. One of the main reasons i like DL is because i don't have to spend every hour of every day grinding endlessly in order to get to the elite cap, i don't have the time, patience, or dollars to do so. I love the fact that DL is currently so inclined towards the average person in letting everyone have ample chance at the elite cap and what cool stuff comes with it, it keeps me coming back, even if for a few seconds to reset my allies.

Of course i won't make any decisions yet, i'll wait until after the patch for that. In fact i have an idea for an elixir. Perhaps for the people who don't have time to spend their days grinding, there could be some gold/plat bought elixirs that multiply the xp given by allies and instead of lasting for a certain amount of times, they could last for a certain amount of ally reloads. Say a 6k gold pot lasts like 5 ally reloads and it doubles the next 5 allies xp reward. This would be something i would definitely use.

Xp/gold reward nerf sucks.. It doesn't make sense why would you need to decrease the rewards...
Oh man back to sl for me where vanities are epic lol.

Sent from The Vular Hive! XD

Sounds good for the game, but bad for me. i hardly played dungeons, just did missions all day.

Keep talking, I'm hearing valid points and there is plenty of time before this will come out. The idea between the xp/gold shift was to put emphasis one or the other depending on what you are after, but it sounds like this may not be what you guys like! I'm listening, and I'm open to changing the plans on this. I'm going to start looking at other possibilities and not just the one outlined in the original post.

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Originally Posted by Carapace

Keep talking, I'm hearing valid points and there is plenty of time before this will come out. The idea between the xp/gold shift was to put emphasis one or the other depending on what you are after, but it sounds like this may not be what you guys like! I'm listening, and I'm open to changing the plans on this. I'm going to start looking at other possibilities and not just the one outlined in the original post.

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the strongest and most enjoyable area is xp and gold from allies...they help the casual players become hardcore. now 3D is great because they contain the vanities and weapon and gems. ATM most of the forumers in DL section are working as a team trying to hunt them down. Dl is becoming a scavenger hunt..and all ive heard is positive comments (yes i get frustrated lookin for undead) aside from my feelings, Vanities are the money makers, and players love the little blue letters across there screen...its like pie and chips...better together XD "Where is that from"

I don't play DL a whole lot

Why?

Because I don't/didn't have to. I leveled quickly enough just by doing the most efficient 2-hour allies.

Shifting xp a little bit more towards the dungeons is a good thing because it will encourage people to "play" more.

I still think there needs to be a little bit more logic to help out people trying to look for multi runs instead of always ending up solo though. Perhaps some sort of indicator (different from when a friend is in a particular dungeon), or perhaps have the particular map glow to indicate there are people you can join.

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Originally Posted by drewcapu

Shifting xp a little bit more towards the dungeons is a good thing because it will encourage people to "play" more.

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vanities (Bosses) and pinks (to ghosts) should be shifted to 3D maps, and boss drops...this will help your concern. ATM vanities and pinks can fall almost anywhere and people dont finish maps, because bosses dont give any benefit aside from what they can drop on there table.

I've seen a gold nerf like this in another game I've played. The end result was the 'veteran' players who had an opportunity to stockpile gold and good drops held onto their earnings, keeping a tight hold on the auction market. Meanwhile new players that joined the game struggled to earn gold and needed to grind a lot to meet the demands that people were asking regarding items for auction should they decide to give up farming for them. Of course an item is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay, but from my experience people tend to drive a hard bargain and others will eventually cave and grind for gold (or buy), thus making the already rich people richer. I'm assuming vanities will enter the auction house at some point. Those seems to be where the money is. I think it is doubtful current pinks will really ever increase in value due to the fact that so many people have them. I've never used a luck elix and I have a bunch of weapons even still. We won't truly feel the full impact of this change until the lvl cap is increased and new items and maps are introduced. I'm going to guess that by Halloween it will be quite the grindfest. By then we will probably have new content and I assume Halloween would be a big event given the genre of this game. Generally from what I've seen in games gold nerfs are never well received even by those who have stockpiled. What people tend to feel more comfortable with is the introduction of gold sinks. Perhaps more chance weapon bundles that can be purchased with gold...that sort of thing. I know the idea is for the devs to make a profit, but with the introduction of gold sinks rather than nerfs people may still feel compelled to use plat to buy gold...it still draws a compulsive behavior that you're probably looking for out of your players thus real money spent on the game. Just some thoughts...

If 3d missions are only going to reward 10g for instance... might as well not bother with it.

To be honest, 90% of my gold come from mobs/liquidation/chests/breakables. I think a very small portion comes from allies or mission completion. So I'm not sure how much changing those will affect anything.

As for reducing exp from allies, this is one point I don't like. One of the great aspects of DL was the fact that you could level adequately fast without spending huge amounts of time in game. I could log on for 5 mintues, collect some ally rewards, set new jobs, etc. By reducing the reward from the allies, you would be trivializing that aspect of the game. I know the examples you gave were just made up, but if they are more than a 50% decrease, I think its way too much.

IMO, reducing the gold is a good idea. Reducing the xp earned from Allies is not. You mentioned before that DL was meant for more casual players with a smaller number of hardcore fans. But I think doing this will widen the gap between the two classes of players.

"Gold Sinks" is also something we'll be doing in the future, the important thing is to make it feel meaningful to everyone that plays, and not just pointless. The assumption that the effects won't be apparent until the new campaign is out is correct, anything currently widely available is going to be still widely available.

I'm still toying with ideas, but chances of a XP gouge on allies looks like it may not happen. I'm rethinking certain aspects so please continue with the discussion.

I agree with everyone! The allies barely contribute to the gold gain the mobs and breakables drop a considerable amount per run. Especially since the energy system was moved from those maps. I have a few gold sink ideas (click here the review the the ideas people!). Hopefully you and your team of devs like them and consider them Carapace. At least a couple of ideas or something might help. Hell, hopefully more players will check it out and post!

Edit: Also, in my opinion nerfing the exp gain from minions will probably -officially- take away the 'casual' part of DL because we will be forced to grind even more just for exp. Its bad enough we have to grind ridiculous hours for vanities that are going to be removed from drop tables after the event is over... Now we gotta grind even more for exp? That would be horrible. Honestly, I like to level up my main as fast as possible so I can get more time to PvP, PvE, do my achievements, etc. I don't like spending all my time grinding like I've been doing since the event started just to look for vanities on a daily basis. Its really cut down on my PvP and starting to irk me so please don't make this game become a pain-in-the-arse to level like PL & SL. For once keep this game unique in the game play exp gaining aspects!

I am glad you're listening Carapace. As many have mentioned, altering Exp that is gained from allies to encourage more 3D gameplay will hurt players that enjoyed being able to reach the Cap with minimal play. I wouldn't mind not receiving so much gold from Allies. If I want gold I can hunt valuable Legendaries to sell in the Auction. I believe that if 3D missions provided more gold with a decent amount of xp and Allies provided less gold, or no gold at all and the removal of Ally loot, it may create a balance of having people running 3D to earn money while earning some Xp and Allies will be required to get a boost of Xp.

Hardcore grinders will still have an edge as they will play for hours and be able to set Allies as soon as they have the energy. This will allow for casual players (5 minute login) to get to the cap at their pace and if they need gold to get Gear then that's when they'll be motivated to run 3D missions. They will run them because Allies would not drop Gear and 3D missions would be the place to get Gear. This may be controversial and I understand how hard it is to make a decision.

My only request is that the Exp from Allies not be altered unless you are going to increase it. ;)

Edit: Kept saying Minions when I meant to say Allies

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Originally Posted by frostine

I've seen a gold nerf like this in another game I've played. The end result was the 'veteran' players who had an opportunity to stockpile gold and good drops held onto their earnings, keeping a tight hold on the auction market. Meanwhile new players that joined the game struggled to earn gold and needed to grind a lot to meet the demands that people were asking regarding items for auction should they decide to give up farming for them. Of course an item is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay, but from my experience people tend to drive a hard bargain and others will eventually cave and grind for gold (or buy), thus making the already rich people richer. I'm assuming vanities will enter the auction house at some point. Those seems to be where the money is. I think it is doubtful current pinks will really ever increase in value due to the fact that so many people have them.

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Yea I also know a game like this, it's called Star Legends.
Really, I wished SL would become more like DL. Vanities in DL are comfy to find (I'm not using luck ele's)
During SL... Well several months of farming an still no result (SL player know what I mean)
Anyways, I don't wanna drift away again or something. I just wanna say that I actually prefer SL but since I have nothing to do then farming vanities (really frustrating, long and unsuccessful) but just because of this I'm playing Dark Legends. Same thing. Mac lvl already, only need to farm BUT I get awarded pretty fast! Got like 4 vanities this week! I just hope SL might become like DL someday. Til there I enjoy Dl's adequate drop rates =)

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Originally Posted by Kuero

Yea I also know a game like this, it's called Star Legends.
Really, I wished SL would become more like DL. Vanities in DL are comfy to find (I'm not using luck ele's)
During SL... Well several months of farming an still no result (SL player know what I mean)
Anyways, I don't wanna drift away again or something. I just wanna say that I actually prefer SL but since I have nothing to do then farming vanities (really frustrating, long and unsuccessful) but just because of this I'm playing Dark Legends. Same thing. Mac lvl already, only need to farm BUT I get awarded pretty fast! Got like 4 vanities this week! I just hope SL might become like DL someday. Til there I enjoy Dl's adequate drop rates =)

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I disagree with this as vanities in Sl are meant to be REALLY HARD to loot.

If vanity drop rates were boosted any noob will have one.

Besides, you can get vanities pretty easily at Red sun pirate ship:incubator.
Just my opinion though.

Sent from The Vular Hive! XD

Something amusing... Gold is an issue... so exp and gold is gonna be messed around with.
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Why were the gold vantiy items decreased then? That was your gold sink right there. Spent millions of gold on stuff that costs like 350k for everything now.
Make a change, ruins something, then fix something else to fix the fix of the fix.
*head spins*

I agree with what Lady Pebbles and others have mentioned regarding XP. I think that is probably my biggest concern...keeping the game casual for those of us who want to play casual. The XP system as it currently stands maintains a balance of casual play for some while those who want to be less casual can grind for rare items. I like PL but the number one thing that turns me off from wanting to play it right now is the pandemic of 'thrashers' in the game. XP gain is rather slow in PL and people are obviously impatient...its hard to find runs without people thrashing ahead of others through the map or even booting non-thrashers. It kinda ruins the gameplay and group dynamics for those who don't want to drink thrash punch. I'd love to see this game avoid going down that road and keep itself different from PL and SL by not having an xp grind being its primary focus. I'd rather think about end game activities like PvP and treasure hunting than boring myself with xp grinds. It fits my schedule better, its better for mobile, and its more fun. I get really really bored when games become busy work/xp grinds, and I love the fact that this game isn't like the rest.

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Originally Posted by octavos

vanities (Bosses) and pinks (to ghosts) should be shifted to 3D maps, and boss drops...this will help your concern. ATM vanities and pinks can fall almost anywhere and people dont finish maps, because bosses dont give any benefit aside from what they can drop on there table.

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Note to ghosts: I have killed many ghosts, about 10-20. And the best I have gotten is a green.. I've never seen a pink drop from ghosts even though I know they're supposed to. :p

But as goes for my opinion.
I agree 99% with the allies, the 1% is that I don't think the XP should be lowered by over half of what it was..
With the dungeons, 5xp per run (20/25xp per campaign) is very low for the work we have to do. So yes, XP should be raised in dungeons

Thank you
-Worship

You guys should just use my Gold Sink idea I told Delphina and the rest of the AoCs in game about 50 times haha.
Delphina will tell you about it Cara, if she hasn't already...

THAT IS...ASSUMING THIS IDEA ISN'T ALREADY IN EFFECT, HMMMM!?!?!? *TURNS SPOTLIGHT*

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Originally Posted by Worship

Note to ghosts: I have killed many ghosts, about 10-20. And the best I have gotten is a green.. I've never seen a pink drop from ghosts even though I know they're supposed to. :p

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only when DL was first released, ghost were a happy sight to see (they dropped pinks XD)...now they are annoying...hopefully i dont come across that way XD

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Originally Posted by Flowman

You guys should just use my Gold Sink idea I told Delphina and the rest of the AoCs in game about 50 times haha.
Delphina will tell you about it Cara, if she hasn't already...

THAT IS...ASSUMING THIS IDEA ISN'T ALREADY IN EFFECT, HMMMM!?!?!? *TURNS SPOTLIGHT*

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whats the idea?

Um, gold be stashable in this update? I got a lvl 17 with 70k and one of my mains has 12k id like to have gold stashable :) lol

Sent using spray paint from a "can"

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Originally Posted by XchilangopwnX

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Hardcore grinders will still have an edge as they will play for hours and be able to set Allies as soon as they have the energy. This will allow for casual players (5 minute login) to get to the cap at their pace and if they need gold to get Gear then that's when they'll be motivated to run 3D missions. They will run them because Allies would not drop Gear and 3D missions would be the place to get Gear. This may be controversial and I understand how hard it is to make a decision.

...

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I don't want the game ruled by hardcore grinders - that's what ruined PL and SL for me, I basically never play them now. Currently I do decently in a typical PvP match - typical being one where there isn't a solid, practiced team working together on the other side. No pwnage but I have fun. In 3D missions my guild co-GM and I do considerably better than the average person we run with and we actively try to avoid running with anyone else. If you change the game so that the best gear can only be gotten by hardcore grinding then players like me and my co-GM get stuck with substandard gear, do less well in 3D and I just get pwned in PvP. That doesn't sound like fun, enjoyable or interesting. I only have time to play 3D on occasional weekends in general so going that route means I would lose any reason to play at all.

Personally I'm happy with the economy being the way it is - have the functional stuff (pinks) be relatively cheap and the attractive stuff (vanities) be rare and expensive - this way I can still play, be relatively tough and have a good time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xaphan Fox

Something amusing... Gold is an issue... so exp and gold is gonna be messed around with.
...
...
...
Why were the gold vantiy items decreased then? That was your gold sink right there. Spent millions of gold on stuff that costs like 350k for everything now.
Make a change, ruins something, then fix something else to fix the fix of the fix.
*head spins*

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Ah another spinner. Hi!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frostine

I agree with what Lady Pebbles and others have mentioned regarding XP. I think that is probably my biggest concern...keeping the game casual for those of us who want to play casual. The XP system as it currently stands maintains a balance of casual play for some while those who want to be less casual can grind for rare items. I like PL but the number one thing that turns me off from wanting to play it right now is the pandemic of 'thrashers' in the game. XP gain is rather slow in PL and people are obviously impatient...its hard to find runs without people thrashing ahead of others through the map or even booting non-thrashers. It kinda ruins the gameplay and group dynamics for those who don't want to drink thrash punch. I'd love to see this game avoid going down that road and keep itself different from PL and SL by not having an xp grind being its primary focus. I'd rather think about end game activities like PvP and treasure hunting than boring myself with xp grinds. It fits my schedule better, its better for mobile, and its more fun. I get really really bored when games become busy work/xp grinds, and I love the fact that this game isn't like the rest.

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I agree with you very much frostine - plat elixirs being necessary to have any chance of reaching level cap if you're not hardcore (and the simple fact that grinding is BORING BORING BORING) are big parts of why I am no longer very much interested in playing PL and SL.

I do like using the gold elixirs in 3D missions in DL but I could accept having the luck and/or element removed, especially if they become cheaper. My favorite thing about the elixirs is being able to move faster - in fact I'd buy just speed elixirs if I could, it's awesome being able to run circles around the bad guys faster than they can turn and target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Worship

Note to ghosts: I have killed many ghosts, about 10-20. And the best I have gotten is a green.. I've never seen a pink drop from ghosts even though I know they're supposed to. :p

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"many ghosts, about 10-20"? Many? Lol, I can only guess how many I've killed but it's got to be in the dozens (and I play 3D fairly rarely.) I've gotten all sorts of drops from ghosts, though I admit I can't recall the last time I got a pink.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by razerfingers

Um, gold be stashable in this update? I got a lvl 17 with 70k and one of my mains has 12k id like to have gold stashable :) lol

Sent using spray paint from a "can"

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Yes, please! I think I heard there was some sort of exploit that caused STS to not allow stashing gold (and blood packs?) but surely there is a better fix than the pain in the behind of not being able to stash them. To work around it for gold I have to use multiple accounts and have character 1 on account 1 give gold to character 2 on account 2 who then gives it to character 3 on account 1 - because character 1 and 3 on account 1 can't just put their gold in their common stash.

Carapace,

I'll be sad to see the luck go but I can live without it. As for the other changes my personal feeling is that after removing the only changes I'd be happy to see would be increased xp for 3D and increased gold for allies. It may seem there is a glut of gold in the game but from where I sit I still can't buy the best gear for even one of my characters - even after combining gold from all of them. I was able to eventually get "good enough" gear for most of them and I'm happy enough so - isn't that a sufficient advantage for the hardcore grinders? I really hope you won't make it another PL where the hardcore have all the money and best gear and essentially everyone else is poor and poorly equipped. I play to have fun, not to replicate the conditions of real life in a game.

Would it help if I beg? Can I bribe you with some level 25 white drops I got from 24 hour ally missions? :vwink: