Poll - Increased Survival / Increased Damage for "Razor Shield" w L80 Perks

Happy New Year, Legends...

I've seen some very good constructive suggestions to make the Rogue more survivable and wanted to run this by the forums to see what others think.

The following proposals involve substituting new Perks for two of the currently existing Perks for Razor Shield at Level 80.

Survival Proposition: replace "Banking Blades" perk (25% chance to reflect 10% incoming damage) with "Blade Barrier" which grants 2 sec. invulnerability when Razor Shield is cast.
We are also considering an increased duration for this invulnerability effect with Charged Razor Shield but we have not made a final decision on that (as of yet).

Damage Proposition: replace "Frictionless Fury" perk (speed boost) with "Furious Rage" which increases the damage dealt by Razor Shield by ~50% (final figure TBD but in this ballpark).
We are also considering an increased damage boost for Charged Razor Shield but, like with the aforementioned perk, haven't made a final call on it.


Thoughts?

+1 I’m sure rogue mains will be happy with the survival idea
perhaps consider adding visual to blade barrier so we know it’s on

Survival! I'm not a actual rogue player but already played it, what I didn't like is that the rogue doesn't have a skill that offers those precious seconds of invulnerability, which are vital to activate procs and become "almost invincible". I've seen it said a few times that the rogue not having a skill like this would be due to the high dodge that the class has, but I would easily trade all my dodge for a skill like this...
Great thread, I hope you also have time to see some constructive suggestions and feedback from players about the current awakening system.
Happy new year!

Thank you so much for this. So many players will like this change, I truly hope people see this pole and vote.

The Banking Blades into invulnerability period of 2-3 seconds is a solid change in my humble opinion. However Frictionless Fury is a beautiful touch to the overall clear which lacks right now. Having a 15% speed increase won't impact any ones gameplay negatively right? (Please correct me if I am mistaken)

Is it possible to have the damage increase made within Bleedings Cuts (25% bleed damage), where the left side of the tree (sharpened blades) increases bleed chance (no change) while the right side of the tree causes no bleed but increases damage by a good amount scaling with procs which is able enough to help with end game clear? (Blunted Barbs changed into perhaps Spiked Barbs to implement this).

I'm sure my self and many Rogues use the movement speed increase as it always is nice to have. I personally have never used Blunted Barbs when clearing. Please let us know if this is ok, if not kindly let us know why.

+1 for survival

Rog's damage with high critical is enough for us, so we need the survival.

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+1 to the survival rework but I think the extra movement speed is good as it is

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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Originally Posted by recilencia123

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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“that class does most damage”
in what multiverse?
-warrior have ulti that increases STR by 7x
-it also has a highest damage per tick weapon which is zod aegis
-mage has aquaris and hyperos that deal massive damage, not comparable to rogue’s weaponry
-it’s not a most constant damage dealer as well since there’s no haste on bows or range degree (it just shoots what’s in front of you unlike warr that hits everything around it no matter the positioning)
I think rog is already handicapped enough and there’s no need to nerf something that’s not been implemented yet.

+1. Love the change. Leaving the movement speed would be more preferred I think.

Guys we can have both implementations to Rogue here, a shield and some damage for clear (AOE). Please let us know why you would not want to see one or both changes if you disagree with one or both the potential implementations.

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Originally Posted by Voorge

“that class does most damage”
in what multiverse?
-warrior have ulti that increases STR by 7x
-it also has a highest damage per tick weapon which is zod aegis
-mage has aquaris and hyperos that deal massive damage, not comparable to rogue’s weaponry
-it’s not a most constant damage dealer as well since there’s no haste on bows or range degree (it just shoots what’s in front of you unlike warr that hits everything around it no matter the positioning)
I think rog is already handicapped enough and there’s no need to nerf something that’s not been implemented yet.

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I'm not talking about ulti, I'm talking about the character with his skills, I'm not talking about weapons either, in addition to the war they give him good damage in a short area since he can't attack from afar except for his axe if compare skills from mage or rog


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Originally Posted by recilencia123

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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Nice feedback, however, if you are talking about most damage, you mean the dps on a single target with the aimed shot skill yeah? (armour ignore is found in aimed shot too). These changes here focused on AOE clear and survivability mate. It's for helping with map clearing which was the original thread topic.

However assuming this is right as you say. Warriors were able to do the Cursed Woods with gear Rogues can never dream to complete with. One boss with double hp, if Rogue was the highest damage dealer this would have not been the case yeah?

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Originally Posted by recilencia123

I'm not talking about ulti, I'm talking about the character with his skills, I'm not talking about weapons either, in addition to the war they give him good damage in a short area since he can't attack from afar except for his axe if compare skills from mage or rog


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Well warrior has rally cry jugg and vengeful blood to boost it’s stats and that’s okay I guess?

+1 for the invulnerability, but keep the movement speed as it is

the survival is good idea

the damage thing should be "increases damage of rogue" not the razer shield damage as this is equivalant to 0

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Originally Posted by Read

Nice feedback, however, if you are talking about most damage, you mean the dps on a single target with the aimed shot skill yeah? (armour ignore is found in aimed shot too). These changes here focused on AOE clear and survivability mate. It's for helping with map clearing which was the original thread topic.

However assuming this is right as you say. Warriors were able to do the Cursed Woods with gear Rogues can never dream to complete with. One boss with double hp, if Rogue was the highest damage dealer this would have not been the case yeah?

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Don't forget that these skills can also be used in PVP, apart from doing good damage to the target and high chance of dodging, giving them immunity should require a balance. idk about rog doing cursed among giants can't talk about it


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Originally Posted by recilencia123

I'm not talking about ulti, I'm talking about the character with his skills, I'm not talking about weapons either, in addition to the war they give him good damage in a short area since he can't attack from afar except for his axe if compare skills from mage or rog


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The problem with this is that, you cannot take away from a class, if you do not consider Zod, Krak Aegis, Arti and Rusk etc. Warriors are completely useless. A class cannot be 100% similar in terms of damage and utility right? Hence why these buffs are in process to be implemented to help the Rogue class match the current standard of the other 2 classes. Check Indigo LB for proof of terrible clear. Time and time again.

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Originally Posted by recilencia123

Don't forget that these skills can also be used in PVP, apart from doing good damage to the target and high chance of dodging, giving them immunity should require a balance. idk about rog doing cursed among giants can't talk about it


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Realistically, this is all good on paper. Then you go on pvp and get one shot by arti proc or tank with bio and rusk. Damage skills do not matter on pvp as much in current meta from what I’ve seen.

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Originally Posted by recilencia123

Don't forget that these skills can also be used in PVP, apart from doing good damage to the target and high chance of dodging, giving them immunity should require a balance. idk about rog doing cursed among giants can't talk about it


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Yeah i totally understand, but i suggest once again going back to the OP, this is solely focused on PvE, its implications on PvP can be dealt with easily by reducing shield amount or duration perhaps in a PvP zone. But I respect your view. It's perfectly fine. Thanks for sharing feedback on this. I'm not one to talk about PvP though, in all honesty I and most of the player base PvE, the devs can confirm this, a majority of the player base only plays PvE hence why PvP changes are seldom.

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Originally Posted by Read

The problem with this is that, you cannot take away from a class, if you do not consider Zod, Krak Aegis, Arti and Rusk etc. Warriors are completely useless. A class cannot be 100% similar in terms of damage and utility right? Hence why these buffs are in process to be implemented to help the Rogue class match the current standard of the other 2 classes. Check Indigo LB for proof of terrible clear. Time and time again.

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But any class without weapons is not useful xd , rog usually have few points because they go to the boss, since they kill him quickly, at least that's what I see.


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good update w for rog

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Originally Posted by Read

Yeah i totally understand, but i suggest once again going back to the OP, this is solely focused on PvE, its implications on PvP can be dealt with easily by reducing shield amount or duration perhaps in a PvP zone. But I respect your view. It's perfectly fine. Thanks for sharing feedback on this. I'm not one to talk about PvP though, in all honesty I and most of the player base PvE, the devs can confirm this, a majority of the player base only plays PvE hence why PvP changes are seldom.

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Yes, giving them different times in pvp and pve would also be another option, but at least in pve it would be very useful so they would no longer depend on h staggos, etc. I hope the devs do their best to keep everything balanced :D


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Originally Posted by recilencia123

But any class without weapons is not useful xd , rog usually have few points because they go to the boss, since they kill him quickly, at least that's what I see.


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Tell me you don't play rogue without telling me that you don't play rogue - the challenge.

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Originally Posted by recilencia123

But any class without weapons is not useful xd , rog usually have few points because they go to the boss, since they kill him quickly, at least that's what I see.


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I recommend you try Cursed Woods, one of the tough challenges right now. Do everything you can to beat that boss as Rogue (Among Giants). Please let us know how it goes. Also I'm talking about classes with all their utility/weapons and procs. You mentioned earlier about seeing a class objectively without looking at Ultimate and Weapons etc. I might have read and understood you wrong perhaps?

What I am trying to say is with all of the weapon/procs/ (insignificant utility) as a Rogue, you will never see Rogue's in Indigo LB constantly. Simply because the class lacks clear. Boss killing is now easy for all classes, elemental sets allow you to nuke a Boss with Warrior/Mage and Rogue. I don't think any class struggles to find parties nowadays with elemental sets for Elite Hedourah yeah? I run Ehedo bypass with Warriors/Mages all the time.

+111111 [emoji48]


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Originally Posted by recilencia123

If you give immunity you should reduce something like skills that ignore armor or damage so that it is balanced since it is the class that does the most damage


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You're tank player and you just said that rogue does the most damage? Sounds like you're not utilizing your class as you should then. Up until blood star artifact rogue was (basically still is) merely worthless class in any competitive field, any event and any leaderboard. You CANNOT argue with this statement, at all.

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Originally Posted by recilencia123

Yes, giving them different times in pvp and pve would also be another option, but at least in pve it would be very useful so they would no longer depend on h staggos, etc. I hope the devs do their best to keep everything balanced :D


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Don't worry at all. Trust me, if Rogue or any class is broken after a re-work my self and many others will come to assist you or any one else to help resolve the imbalance. I can assure you, I will. Don't worry about this before it has even gone live man :P relax.

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Originally Posted by |Ares|

You're tank player and you just said that rogue does the most damage? Sounds like you're not utilizing your class as you should then. Up until blood star artifact rogue was (basically still is) merely worthless class in any competitive field, any event and any leaderboard. You CANNOT argue with this statement, at all.

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that's ur opinion and i respect, hope u do same with mine sir.


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Originally Posted by recilencia123

that's ur opinion and i respect, hope u do same with mine sir.


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Your opinion is invalid here, based on what rogue does highest damage then? Elaborate.

Give rogues all the buffs and none of the nerfs please. I want my rogue friends to enjoy the game again. There is no reason to balance the buffs out. This is just them catching up.

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Originally Posted by capeo

Give rogues all the buffs and none of the nerfs please. I want my rogue friends to enjoy the game again. There is no reason to balance the buffs out. This is just them catching up.

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Tank main btw ^ thanks for that and not for the rOgUe dEaLs HigHEsT DaMaGe.

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Originally Posted by |Ares|

Your opinion is invalid here, based on what rogue does highest damage then? Elaborate.

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Ok, I have no right to comment then.


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I hope you guys get it. It's obvious to me that rogues are having a hard time now that all 3 classes do damage. I like that I can clear and kill bosses but it takes a rogues roll away. What's the point of being a glass cannon when mage/war can deal damage to? Not to mention more rogues will come back to pvp if they can actually survive for a while;)

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Originally Posted by Read

Thank you so much for this. So many players will like this change, I truly hope people see this pole and vote.

The Banking Blades into invulnerability period of 2-3 seconds is a solid change in my humble opinion. However Frictionless Fury is a beautiful touch to the overall clear which lacks right now. Having a 15% speed increase won't impact any ones gameplay negatively right? (Please correct me if I am mistaken)

Is it possible to have the damage increase made within Bleedings Cuts (25% bleed damage), where the left side of the tree (sharpened blades) increases bleed chance (no change) while the right side of the tree causes no bleed but increases damage by a good amount scaling with procs which is able enough to help with end game clear? (Blunted Barbs changed into perhaps Spiked Barbs to implement this).

I'm sure my self and many Rogues use the movement speed increase as it always is nice to have. I personally have never used Blunted Barbs when clearing. Please let us know if this is ok, if not kindly let us know why.

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+1 This is a good addition right? Every one reading this, let's help figure this out for the developers too. I like the 15ms% as it is.

can fix mage healing properties . we do not need 10x different mana boosts


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+1 to the rogue finally getting a shield

I'm not against razor getting a dmg boost but I think a better alternative would be to increase the range. Also leave the movement speed choice alone and swap out dmg reflect instead.

Very thankful for proposal and hearing us @devs, hope the invulnerability makes it to the live game. 2 to 3 seconds seems balanced and right, and will proof very useful for us competing with the defensive abilities of the other classes that have invulnerability in their base skillset.

About the increased damage dealt by razor shield, not a big fan of it. Rogues don't use razor shield for the damage it deals at all, rather for the utility of the skill. This utility being the ms, increased damage, debuff removal, health regen. The movement speed buff we have at the moment is very useful in general. It does not really need a change in my eyes.

I see many people above discussing the pre-determined 'damage dealer' role the rogue has. Dealing damage is mostly related to procs these days. When in Elite Raha for example, I see warriors and mages with a lower damage stat value dealing much much higher tics of damage to the boss than me, with max boosts/procs, similar gear. This is an indication for the imbalance in single target damage dealing. I haven't really checked out the balancing of the AOE damage proc items (krak daggers vs staff vs aegis) since every mob dies in 1 hit anyway now that blood artifact is a thing. Not saying that everything should be perfectly equal either. The point is that rogue doesn't seem to be dealing the highest damage while having the highest damage stats. That's fine and all since not a lot more than 7/6 sb is needed to kill most enemies, but still...

One suggestion I would like to make is to give the razor SHIELD an actual shield function, by perhaps replacing one of the upgrades for a % damage reduction for X duration, besides the new invuln. OR by giving rogue (and other classes indirectly, or keep it for the casters' damage alone) more damage by making enemies hit by razor shield take X% more damage for X seconds, similar to Neigher base attack. This could push rogues closer to being the damage dealer it's meant to be.

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Happy New Year, Legends...

I've seen some very good constructive suggestions to make the Rogue more survivable and wanted to run this by the forums to see what others think.

The following proposals involve substituting new Perks for two of the currently existing Perks for Razor Shield at Level 80.

Survival Proposition: replace "Banking Blades" perk (25% chance to reflect 10% incoming damage) with "Blade Barrier" which grants 2 sec. invulnerability when Razor Shield is cast.
We are also considering an increased duration for this invulnerability effect with Charged Razor Shield but we have not made a final decision on that (as of yet).

Damage Proposition: replace "Frictionless Fury" perk (speed boost) with "Furious Rage" which increases the damage dealt by Razor Shield by ~50% (final figure TBD but in this ballpark).
We are also considering an increased damage boost for Charged Razor Shield but, like with the aforementioned perk, haven't made a final call on it.


Thoughts?

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LETSSS GOOOO 100% go go goooo thanks for the community poll ur the boss


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Originally Posted by dexxiedex

Very thankful for proposal and hearing us @devs, hope the invulnerability makes it to the live game. 2 to 3 seconds seems balanced and right, and will proof very useful for us competing with the defensive abilities of the other classes that have invulnerability in their base skillset.

About the increased damage dealt by razor shield, not a big fan of it. Rogues don't use razor shield for the damage it deals at all, rather for the utility of the skill. This utility being the ms, increased damage, debuff removal, health regen. The movement speed buff we have at the moment is very useful in general. It does not really need a change in my eyes.

I see many people above discussing the pre-determined 'damage dealer' role the rogue has. Dealing damage is mostly related to procs these days. When in Elite Raha for example, I see warriors and mages with a lower damage stat value dealing much much higher tics of damage to the boss than me, with max boosts/procs, similar gear. This is an indication for the imbalance in single target damage dealing. I haven't really checked out the balancing of the AOE damage proc items (krak daggers vs staff vs aegis) since every mob dies in 1 hit anyway now that blood artifact is a thing. Not saying that everything should be perfectly equal either. The point is that rogue doesn't seem to be dealing the highest damage while having the highest damage stats. That's fine and all since not a lot more than 7/6 sb is needed to kill most enemies, but still...

One suggestion I would like to make is to give the razor SHIELD an actual shield function, by perhaps replacing one of the upgrades for a % damage reduction for X duration, besides the new invuln. OR by giving rogue (and other classes indirectly, or keep it for the casters' damage alone) more damage by making enemies hit by razor shield take X% more damage for X seconds, similar to Neigher base attack. This could push rogues closer to being the damage dealer it's meant to be.

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Yeah, the shield is 100% needed, and the point on Razor not being used for damage is true. It's mainly used for speed and removing impairing effects. In the Original Post I was thinking a instant proc damage the moment players run past mobs with RS (Razor Shield) instead of damage ticks. Since damage ticks slow down a run greatly and there is no time to stay on top of mobs and utilize the tic damage, specially with high base ping as well.

Blunted Barbs turning from push back to instant contact damage to mobs scaling neatly with procs seems cool. That way we can wiggle around mobs and do some damage and clean mobs with procs better, rather than having to depend on a chance bleed and slow tic damage not helping with Rogue Clear.

Or another implementation would be a 100% bleed and proc on targets with a bigger AOE radius, scaling nicely with procs, so it becomes a unique DOT like Mage Fire Ball and Time Shift. Maybe changing Blunted Barbs into something like Serrated Edge or Serrated Onslaught (cheesy but cool).

Survival is good change. All for it!
Dmg for speed? HELL NO! Keep the current speed perks as it is please.

Wars have skills that increase move speed. We need at least something!

Also doesnt razor already help alot with dmg stuff? Jesus

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Detour thread to ignore the awake balance allegations