My thoughts on PvP [Im]balance - The Sorcerer's Tale

Some quick intro.

I'm Jimmeh. I came back to AL to try out the PvP, after getting the best gear. I tried like 7 builds in the first hour, and I've come down to a Ice/Lightning/Curse/Heal option, with points in damage and intellect. I figure if I max my damage output, I'm getting the most I can for my class. Shield just wasn't worth it. I was even more useless.

EDIT 1/20/13 : I need to say that my new build (includes shield, not going to give it away, is great. But it's still not matching the #s of kills rogues can put out... commence reading xD)

So. My point.

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Originally Posted by Haowesie

Hi Justg, if it's in beta, then would it be fair to say that the current ctf/pvp leaderboards should not have been recorded?

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I think this really is a valid point coming from this thread and is currently being overlooked.

The argument "It's in beta" is INVALID. It does not matter that it is being tested -people are racking up kills, captures, and achievements.

If there's an imbalance, and that imbalance is preventing competitive mages and warriors from being on a level playing field, it needs to be addressed immediately. Nobody likes being at a disadvantage.

The fact is, all skill aside, rogues are by far the most fit class for the PvP leaderboards, especially in kills.

#Rogues have high damage killing blows (one shot. etc), and a decent amount of armor in comparison to what you'd see on a sorcerer.

This is all a "group-aside" argument - I am a sorc and I have my fair share of 30+ kills per game, but I'm talking about PUG groups - teamwork roulettes - that's what we're dealing with.

Mages are the worst class for PvP currently in my opinion for several reasons.

EDIT 1/20/13: I would like to point out that the shield build IS VIABLE (and even vital). However - it does not address my point. While I can go 15-2 and have a really nice KD, rogues in the same game can simply get more kills, which is the imbalance I am trying to address here.

# They are slow.
# They are weak as hell. Even with buffs and Arcane Shield and whatever.
# They are the worst in 1v1, 1v anything, really. Useful really just in (2+)v X.
# Their damage / stuns really don't set it apart for how weak they are. The weakest class should be strongest. Or the second weakest class should not have stuns equivalent. It's pretty obvious to any sorc, and even any rogue.

Warriors win the "most annoying" reward.

# There is no way to target - the long range abilities of sorcs are useless in the presence of stuns. 3 warriors and 2 DPS classes behind are often near impossible to kill, given REMOTE (if any) skill and gear. Unless the opposing team has the same class distribution. <-- remember, I'm a 275.9 sorc.
# Idiot players can survive just because they have gear (Wait, what? As a sorc I thought my gear didn't DO ANYTHING)
# Idiot players can survive just because they have gear (Reiteration for emphasis).
# They just have too much hp. And armor. I'm fully geared in the best mage security armor (Demonlord, Charward Assault), with the highest stats. I use my slows, etc. But this is serious - I have to be constantly spacebar-ing a warrior in 1v1 for about 25 seconds to kill him. In those 25 seconds, if I run into another one of his team without my own coming to arms, I'm dead meat.

EDIT (Not valid:) There is simply no contest.

So, what do I think should be done? (View letters as alternatives)

EDIT: I would like to say I no longer support points 1 and 2 for the purpose of rebalance. I would like to shift focus this post more on leaderboards, queues, and statistics.

1a) Decrease the power of the one shot for PvP purposes, maybe just slightly.

1b) Or, conversely, raise the default armor value for sorcerers. Level 17s should not be able to one shot another class. What type of game even has one-shots?

2a) Decrease the armor value for warriors. They should be strong, but a 5v1 shouldn't take ten seconds.

3a) Reset the leaderboards once all this is straightened out. It sucks for people who care.

3b) If not, break up the PvP achievement board by class. Very, very necessary.

3c) A lot of people will quit your game because they love pvp. Enough said...

4) Adjust the damage of mages, bring back sorcs. Balance the game. Simple,right?

A little off-topic-but-related suggestions...

5) PvP objective achievements? Winning games means nothing...

6) Group queues. Guild queues. Full premades.

7) Abandonment debuffs. Especially if #5 happens.

#Mythoughts.

Yours?

well let's say this believe it or not alll the classes 100% balanced . i'v got 3 accounts with lvl 21 with perfect weapons ( Warrior . Rogue . Magi ) i did many tests on them to find out these facts :

(1 vs 1)

1- Warrior can kill Sorcerer ( 90% Warrior Wins )
2- Sorcerer can Kill Rogue ( 60% Sorcerer Wins )
3- Rogue can Kill Warrior ( 100% Rogue Wins ! )

Note: i don't want to say what kind of skills or build you need to make these facts True ( you will have to figure it out by yourself )
The Best of All is Rogue in 1 vs 1 xD

Now for 5 vs 5

let's make it like this

a Team of Sorcerers got 80% chance to win a team of Rogues
a Team of Sorcerers got 55% chance to win a team of Warriors
a Team of Warriors got 55% chance to win a team of Rogues

i would say Sorcerers are the best for a Team vs Team

I may have some misevaluations... I have had some new revelations lately.


But I still would suggest LB class distinctions and some of the other stuff.

Hmm, but seriously, where do you draw those numbers?

I doubt your sample space.

Too many variables, my friend. Can't even make premades, so pretty much impossible to guarantee everyone has the best gear, builds, etc.

I joined these forums for one reason nerf Rogue. She is way too powerful. So many times i played games with rogues where they get over 20 kills. They can 1 shot KO a sorcerer. There are many people I seen say if rogue doesn't get weaker I quit. So I won't be the only customer quitting if Rogue doesn't get nerfed.

Rogues dont need a nerf. if you nerf rogues theb warriors will own everything with minimum effort. mages are a support class, they are not tanks so stop trying to be one. work as a team and youll be fine. a mage teamed up with any class is a serious threat. most if my deaths come from mages (I'm a rogue) the shield is super affective against aimed shot and your sruns last the longest. you have equal to or more dps in most casea than rogues and all your attacks are ranged. so of sourse your going to be weak. a 1 shot kill or rogues are actually pretty rare. and given the fact that wwn i fire a charged aimed shot at a mage and he fire a charged firball with stun at the same time, even if i fire my aimed shot fires first, i get stuned and the arrow just disapears. Ithappens every time o.O if you you use your skills corectly you can kill a rogue 80% of the time. most of a rogues kills come from other rogues anyway.

Rogues are not op. I get owned by a few GOOD warriors and mages if they have the right build and they don't suck they own most rogues. IMO every class is around the same. Mages with stun and heals warriors with that darn 2sec invincible shield. Rogues just do DMG that's it learn to use your class.

@jimmeh

1. a mage should have shield, and they should be one shot'd by rogue if the shield is not up. that's the reality in every other game. take example frost mage in arcraft, you are in a trouble if the frost barrier is not up. increasing the armor value of mages makes them hard to kill if they also spec'd arance shield, and that defeats the definition of glass cannon. and don't tell me it's about stunning first. that's not the pvp i like. pvp should be equal balance, not "strike first means victory" pvp.

2. armor value of arrior is not a problem. they should be tanky. the problem is the shield immunity. i suggest make the shield buff can only be received once in 15 seconds per arrior. so, they cannot thro shield to each other.

3. damage adjustment to mage is not needed. the damage is fine. increasing the damage makes the mage class OP. the damage should be less than aimed shot, because not only damaging, it also cc the target. the problem is, the cc part is also being nerfed right no. even frost bolt is not snaring. my suggestion is that, bring back the frost bolt roots and snare. but, upgrade the rogue's razor shield and arrior's juggernaut to make them also immune from movement impairing for a several second. and that ill raise the skill cap for all the classes ( they have to time the skill cooldons, and mage should retreat if they use it)

all the other i agree



the thing is, the fix should not raise the quality of one class, but raising the quality of the pvp scheme. thus, raising the game quality.

EDIT: i play sorc

Is there anyone playing rogue that will not say "Rogues are not OP"? O.o I don't think so... And yes, sorc/mages have a hard time now in pvp almost with everyone. But they are great as a support. as they should be, tho :)

Jimmeh i support your post, but i would say this if you have a good team pvp would be more enjoyable. They really really need to have team chat. And certain classes need to be grouped together.I aint no Leroy Jenkins but for some reason i always find my self tagged and bag by a group since mine is all over the map.

I agree 100% with the original post. Its exactly the same issue Im having with PvP... and my Mage is also capped with top gear as well. Hell we even use a similar skill build.


EDIT: BTW I have a capped Rogue as well. It doesn't have full capped gear and still pwns... So I -know- they're OP.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Pebbles

I agree 100% with the original post. Its exactly the same issue Im having with PvP... and my Mage is also capped with top gear as well. Hell we even use a similar skill build.


EDIT: BTW I have a capped Rogue as well. It doesn't have full capped gear and still pwns... So I -know- they're OP.

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Thank you for your endorsement. I have several friends on the LB who are totally on the same page. They kind of laugh because they always target sorcs first (doesn't everyone?) and get such quick kills.

I like the skill. Part of my biggest suggestion I guess is just to include class separation on the leaderboard, and maybe add statistics to show who is contributing what # (Damage, Healing, Captures, W/L)

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Originally Posted by nicoB

Rogues dont need a nerf. if you nerf rogues theb warriors will own everything with minimum effort. mages are a support class, they are not tanks so stop trying to be one. work as a team and youll be fine. a mage teamed up with any class is a serious threat. most if my deaths come from mages (I'm a rogue) the shield is super affective against aimed shot and your sruns last the longest. you have equal to or more dps in most casea than rogues and all your attacks are ranged. so of sourse your going to be weak. a 1 shot kill or rogues are actually pretty rare. and given the fact that wwn i fire a charged aimed shot at a mage and he fire a charged firball with stun at the same time, even if i fire my aimed shot fires first, i get stuned and the arrow just disapears. Ithappens every time o.O if you you use your skills corectly you can kill a rogue 80% of the time. most of a rogues kills come from other rogues anyway.

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The point is being missed.

It's not that they're OP in 1 v 1 or X v X, it's that they have an advantage in the myriad of kills they gather. As it stands, we won't be seeing any mages on the leaderboard any time soon, unless it's a no lifer... someone who can compensate a 2 to 3 or so disadvantage in kills with a rogue of equal skill.

I also made an edit in the original post to include the Shield Build Viability. It is very strong, and improves my K/D significantly.

I just played with you Jimmeh. I am Raysblast.

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Originally Posted by Jimmeh

Thank you for your endorsement. I have several friends on the LB who are totally on the same page. They kind of laugh because they always target sorcs first (doesn't everyone?) and get such quick kills.

I like the skill. Part of my biggest suggestion I guess is just to include class separation on the leaderboard, and maybe add statistics to show who is contributing what # (Damage, Healing, Captures, W/L)

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I totally agree They definitely need a class seperation on leader boards and soon.

Also i would to pvp with you sometime Jimmmeh. I sent you a friend request.
IGN: Datswatshesed

I agree maybe rogue needs a nerf in Ctf but not so much dmg but crit dmg. Its that 200% dmg that you can get from a crit that one shots a mage. Maybe lower the crit dmg 100% in ctf.
Lead boards should be reset once things are more balanced but rogues are made for fast kills there bound to be at the top of lead boards. My suggestion would be to make three separate lead boards for each class.
Also to minimize clutter on the lead boards there should be two separate lb boards in town one for pve and the other for pvp.

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Originally Posted by dakota1988

@jimmeh

1. a mage should have shield, and they should be one shot'd by rogue if the shield is not up. that's the reality in every other game. take example frost mage in arcraft, you are in a trouble if the frost barrier is not up. increasing the armor value of mages makes them hard to kill if they also spec'd arance shield, and that defeats the definition of glass cannon. and don't tell me it's about stunning first. that's not the pvp i like. pvp should be equal balance, not "strike first means victory" pvp.

2. armor value of arrior is not a problem. they should be tanky. the problem is the shield immunity. i suggest make the shield buff can only be received once in 15 seconds per arrior. so, they cannot thro shield to each other.

3. damage adjustment to mage is not needed. the damage is fine. increasing the damage makes the mage class OP. the damage should be less than aimed shot, because not only damaging, it also cc the target. the problem is, the cc part is also being nerfed right no. even frost bolt is not snaring. my suggestion is that, bring back the frost bolt roots and snare. but, upgrade the rogue's razor shield and arrior's juggernaut to make them also immune from movement impairing for a several second. and that ill raise the skill cap for all the classes ( they have to time the skill cooldons, and mage should retreat if they use it)

all the other i agree



the thing is, the fix should not raise the quality of one class, but raising the quality of the pvp scheme. thus, raising the game quality.

EDIT: i play sorc

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I am editing my OP to stat how #1 and #2 are not entirely necessary, for this reason - a mage using shield correctly can destroy anybody in 1v1. I don't lose any more 1v1s when I have all moves off cd. Ever. New build = win.

However, the leaderboard (and other) issues remain - Rogues still have a huge advantage in getting kills in CTF.

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Originally Posted by nicoB

Rogues dont need a nerf. if you nerf rogues theb warriors will own everything with minimum effort.

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Somewhat agree... I've been ignoring warriors because I've been too busy testing my play style against rogues (and to see if I have the correct skills and build.)

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Originally Posted by nicoB

mages are a support class

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However, disagree on this because by your statement, the Leaderboard title "CTF Kills" should be changed to "Rogue Kills". You don't see anything wrong with the L/B dominated by Rogues?? Because that just implies that the two other classes just don't know how to play -- ALL OF THEM, lmao.

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Originally Posted by dakota1988

and don't tell me it's about stunning first. that's not the pvp i like. pvp should be equal balance, not "strike first means victory" pvp.

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I thought about this and almost agree, because reality is, the person who shoots first will win. Equal balance (only in this scenario) is if a rogue can one shot kill -- then a sorcerer should also have the ability to one shoot kill. That to me is equal -- meaning, the skills and weapons may be different, but the ability to do so by some means (adding other factors in the mix, e.g. other players charging in, etc...). In the current scenario, what I see is rogues have were given bazookas, and sorcerers were given butter knives (over exaggeration here :P)

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Originally Posted by dakota1988

the thing is, the fix should not raise the quality of one class, but raising the quality of the pvp scheme. thus, raising the game quality.

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Agree. I'm still trying to find and understand the playing field, and it's not so bad imho. However, I still think if it's in "test" that the L/B should not have been recorded. Sadly, I don't think L/B will be reset as too many people (including myself) are already working towards their achievements.

I never said that the leaderboard title CTF. kills should be changed to rogue kills....maybe you should read my post again...

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Originally Posted by nicoB

I never said that the leaderboard title CTF. kills should be changed to rogue kills....maybe you should read my post again...

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Yeah. I agree with your original post.

by "equal balance" i mean

1. a rogue stunned by mage should still have a chance to fight back.
2. a mage aimed-shot'd by rogue should also have a chance to fight back.

it'll eliminate the "meh, you're just lucky hitting me first"

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Originally Posted by dakota1988

by "equal balance" i mean

1. a rogue stunned by mage should still have a chance to fight back.
2. a mage aimed-shot'd by rogue should also have a chance to fight back.

it'll eliminate the "meh, you're just lucky hitting me first"

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I think half the problem, too, is visibility. The camera angles, especially when going southwest, are pretty bad. The rogue's one shot has pretty good range, so that can qualify some complaints.

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Originally Posted by nicoB

I never said that the leaderboard title CTF. kills should be changed to rogue kills....maybe you should read my post again...

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I never said that you said that -- maybe you should re-read my post. I quoted you on "mages are a support class". By that statement, it implies that sorcerers don't belong on the leaderboards, because they should stay on the side.

Maybe it would be wise to refrain from posting "this class is OP" so soon as PVP has been out for what? 2 days?

If Jimmeh "discovered" shielding maybe there are other tricks out there that need more testing before calling everyone OP.

As rightly said in this thread, rogues don't have a CC ability and are only about damage.

I'm really quite surprised at the class balance so far, clearly a sign STS designed some solid classes. I expected PVP release to have a class that is really above the others (not necessarily rogue even though PVE suggests so).

As it stands, yes rogues kill more but that's the only thing they do. You don't save a team from wiping with a rogue like having a sorc or a war does. Introducing damage healed and flags captured in leaderboards would level the playing fields as for now it records what rogues are good at so of course they'll come on top.

I'm expecting warriors to become party centers as they heal the best, provide immunity and can CC some. Sorcs are the table-turners as such wide AOE CC can turn a loosing battle into a win. Rogues will be straight DPS as class description implies.

Really, to me STS did quite an impressive job, much better than most MMOs I've played. And remember we still haven't tested much of anything in terms of PVP as everyone is still in PVE gear and spec.

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Originally Posted by dakota1988

1. a mage should have shield, and they should be one shot'd by rogue if the shield is not up. that's the reality in every other game. take example frost mage in arcraft, you are in a trouble if the frost barrier is not up. increasing the armor value of mages makes them hard to kill if they also spec'd arance shield, and that defeats the definition of glass cannon. and don't tell me it's about stunning first. that's not the pvp i like. pvp should be equal balance, not "strike first means victory" pvp.

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No single skill should be required for any class to be successful. That's why there are 8 skills to choose from. I can only assume the intention of STS was for different players to have different builds, not for everyone to have the same exact build. So no, mages should not all have shield.

And BTW, it's not possible to always have the shield up. It goes up for a short while, and then takes a long time to cool down. The problem is that I cannot see the rogue coming most of the time. I don't see the rogue until I've already been stunned by the rogue, and then the first hit after the stun kills me taking all 1700 health points I have.

I'm not totally terrible at PvP. So far my record is about 140-115 (k/d) but I would guess if you take my record and eliminate all kills of rogues and all deaths caused by rogues, my record would be around 130-15. Almost all of my deaths come from these one hits by rogues.

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Originally Posted by Heiki

Maybe it would be wise to refrain from posting "this class is OP" so soon as PVP has been out for what? 2 days?

If Jimmeh "discovered" shielding maybe there are other tricks out there that need more testing before calling everyone OP.

As rightly said in this thread, rogues don't have a CC ability and are only about damage.

I'm really quite surprised at the class balance so far, clearly a sign STS designed some solid classes. I expected PVP release to have a class that is really above the others (not necessarily rogue even though PVE suggests so).

As it stands, yes rogues kill more but that's the only thing they do. You don't save a team from wiping with a rogue like having a sorc or a war does. Introducing damage healed and flags captured in leaderboards would level the playing fields as for now it records what rogues are good at so of course they'll come on top.

I'm expecting warriors to become party centers as they heal the best, provide immunity and can CC some. Sorcs are the table-turners as such wide AOE CC can turn a loosing battle into a win. Rogues will be straight DPS as class description implies.

Really, to me STS did quite an impressive job, much better than most MMOs I've played. And remember we still haven't tested much of anything in terms of PVP as everyone is still in PVE gear and spec.

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Eh. Don't make me sound quite like an idiot. But I'm just trying to say that I had to reduce on my damage in order to become viable in PvP. I am not catching kills like rogues, not in any means. The fighting may be balanced, but people care about leaderboards.

And currently, they aren't balanced. It's not that I really discovered shielding, it's that I was forced to use it in order to not feed 10k kills to the next guy.