Key to balance is not what you think.....

So tonight I spent a couple hours in PvP. I made sure to keep track of my Kills and Deaths as I wanted to try out a new strategy....

So for the first hour I did absolutely horrible! I had only 4 kills and 25 deaths. I kept getting mobbed by the other team, and it seemed like the teams I was on were just unorganized and did not fight together while the other teams did. But I kept pressing replay, and slowly my team and the other team changed as players left and new players joined.

Then about an hour into playing a warrior joined my team and it seemed that him and I made an awesome duo. He knew how to tank and block for me, and I was able to unleash terror from behind him. Over the course of the next hour we ruled. The other 3 players on our team kept changing, but in general they followed our lead. During this hour I had 42 kills and only 9 deaths.

Then I started thinking... I realized that your success or failure in PvP seems mostly predicated on how well your team plays together. It seems like most of the time you get killed it's because you are outnumbered by the other team, and most of the kills you get are when you have the other team outnumbered. If your team sticks together then you have numbers in battle. If your team does not stick together, then you tend to end up in battles where you are outnumbered while your teammates are scattered throughout the map.

I think this factor is more important than it really should be. I also never noticed this to be such an issue in CTF in PL. So I think the issue here is the 5-on-5 games. It should be changed to 3-on-3. I think 3-on-3 on a smaller map would mean individual play would matter more than what team you are on. I think this may be the real key to balancing.

Opinions??

Screw it, just go straight to building 1v1 please. Like in order and chaos, you can challenge a player anywhere and you guys will fight in the middle of town or in front of bael. Anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Fluffysox

Screw it, just go straight to building 1v1 please. Like in order and chaos, you can challenge a player anywhere and you guys will fight in the middle of town or in front of bael. Anywhere.

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That game ripped off WoW, i'm sure sts wouldn't do that, but implementing a 1 v 1 arena system seems more realistic.

A mage isn't really capable of defeating opponents in 1-1. Not easily, at least.

Encouraging individual play would really contradict what i believe STS is trying to accomplish here - a team-coop gameplay. If every class were to go wandering off in the maze solo, team fights wouldn't be happening much then.

Over time most players would learn better about team-play, and stop wandering off on their on to be butchered. My opinion is to let the community slowly let themselves get around the idea that team play is the only way to dominate CTF. Or include a
"Don't like getting killed? Stay with your team!" in-game tip or something.

Just my thoughts :)

P.s I'm a Warrior myself and I'm actually saying this - balance is still a must, especially on the Warrior's Windmill.

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Originally Posted by Destructible

A mage isn't really capable of defeating opponents in 1-1. Not easily, at least.

Encouraging individual play would really contradict what i believe STS is trying to accomplish here - a team-coop gameplay. If every class were to go wandering off in the maze solo, team fights wouldn't be happening much then.

Over time most players would learn better about team-play, and stop wandering off on their on to be butchered. My opinion is to let the community slowly let themselves get around the idea that team play is the only way to dominate CTF. Or include a
"Don't like getting killed? Stay with your team!" in-game tip or something.

Just my thoughts :)

P.s I'm a Warrior myself and I'm actually saying this - balance is still a must, especially on the Warrior's Windmill.

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Problem is mages are not capable of staying with their team. Warriors and Rogues can move twice as fast as we can, so when they run off on their own, like they usually do, mages are left to fend for themselves. And then what always happens is you end up getting attacked by a mob.

I do just fine 1-on-1, even against warriors. What I cannot handle is a warrior and another player at the same time. Yet 95%+ of my deaths come from this.

So following up on my original post, the next couple of games for me resulted in 1 kill and 16 deaths. So it's all over the place. My success has very little to do with my skill and more to do with the playing style of my team. And since I cannot choose my team, then it's simply a random outcome. I would guess that those with the best K/D ratios are either warriors or are sorcerers/rogues who spend more time choosing which game to play than actually playing. If I keep jumping in and out of games until I find a game where my side has a 2 or more player advantage, then I'd have a wonderful K/D ratio.

I'm just tired of fighting mobs. I'd like a 1-on-1 venue because that beats fighting 1-on-5 which is how most of my fights in the last 10 minutes were.

I bought l25 alps today and I gotta say the games pretty balanced.
All comes down to how well you play in a team, & how you can provide benefits for your team in a fight, etc etc.

But my guess is alot of complaints regarding balance changes are based on uneven 1 sided games.
If players can focus on teamplay instead of acting as a solo player and the "ima run b/c im gonna die", then I figure we would be seeing alot less complaints.

For example, in-between fights I would constantly swap out my nexus/conga to mana regen the rogues on my side. I would also throw down medpacks whenever I can because you never know when they'd be of use. All these little things in the end do matter and will effect the outcome of the game. Games would last longer, and we would't be seeing so many rage quitters and 1 sided games.

And mages imo are not weak at all, and if played right there's always room for a mage or two on a team.
Instead of ranting for a buff, the only you guys can do right now is to adjust & adapt & learn to be a better team player.

I hope people take my advice into consideration and stop creating rant posts based off of 1v1 situations. Keep in mind this is a 5v5 CTF game where it's near impossible to have a balanced game.

CTF is a team game. specially after update. rogue has been nerfed. the whole game is heavyly depond on warriors. as they can deal dmg. blocking att. and heal the whole team to full health.
A good warrior is the key to win any CTF right now.

and also its still early after cap.rise. most of the player dont have the best gear yet. its hard to compare. as a top rogue with a lv25 ALP. dout any normal warrior can deal with it.

The problem is when CTF strategy deponds on only on class the game just break up so often.

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Originally Posted by gundamsone

I bought l25 alps today and I gotta say the games pretty balanced.
All comes down to how well you play in a team, & how you can provide benefits for your team in a fight, etc etc.

But my guess is alot of complaints regarding balance changes are based on uneven 1 sided games.
If players can focus on teamplay instead of acting as a solo player and the "ima run b/c im gonna die", then I figure we would be seeing alot less complaints.

For example, in-between fights I would constantly swap out my nexus/conga to mana regen the rogues on my side. I would also throw down medpacks whenever I can because you never know when they'd be of use. All these little things in the end do matter and will effect the outcome of the game. Games would last longer, and we would't be seeing so many rage quitters and 1 sided games.

And mages imo are not weak at all, and if played right there's always room for a mage or two on a team.
Instead of ranting for a buff, the only you guys can do right now is to adjust & adapt & learn to be a better team player.

I hope people take my advice into consideration and stop creating rant posts based off of 1v1 situations. Keep in mind this is a 5v5 CTF game where it's near impossible to have a balanced game.

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Surely mages r not weak. they r weak only when they r alone fight with warriors. Most player join the game as random. not everyone is a team player. This is the only problem. if everyone does what they suppose to do. its a unstoppable team.

The biggest problem is that not everyone in these matches are team players and just want to farm kills or flags. Then there are those that complain that they get mobbed by more than one enemy & say stuff like "can't fight 1 on 1 huh?!" when its not the case at all. Its like they expect each player goes up against one player of the other team in order to win.... & most of us know it doesn't work that way (especially in CtF).

I don't understand why some players get mad when others don't want to go one on one in a team based arena. It really makes no sense to me.

STS wanted players to perceive CTF as a team based game however due to achievements and other personal reasons players may have, it has turned CTF into what we have today.
Just learn to be a good teamplayer and enjoy the game for what it is. There's no need to rage quit or curse somebody out b/c you died to them.

Ultimately there is no fix to this issue (& people gotta realize this), and it's an on going issue in pretty much every mmo out there.

edit: also want to point out that the locked camera mode contributes to this (& there is also no fix for this). often times you can see your opponent and they cannot see you...vice versa.

Trying to force random teams to work smoothly in pvp is absurd. The core of pvp should be based on EVERY class being able to survive 1 on 1.
AL needs to look closely at DL which has a kickass pvp.
Now it makes sense that a good team should have more kills/flags but this is first and foremost a CASUAL cellphone game. I should be able to jump at any time for a quick pvp fight, get 5 fun minutes of fun (and lots of kills :D ) and log off. It's what cellphone games are made for. If you want long winded strategic battles go play Guild Wars or Wow.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

yea but what can you do with 5warriors on the other side holding hands?

we all know what they can do.....annihilation!

I totally agree Energizeric! The key to success in CTF is cooperation. I play in A LOT of PUGs....most are awful. I've seen groups that splinter as soon as the game starts. I've seen teams that break into two groups to spawn kill. I've seen groups that just hover in the flag room doing nothing what-so-ever. This is the main reason why I jump games until I find one or two players who have a similar mindset as me and just keep hitting Replay when the game is over. A good, cooperative group is nearly unstoppable!

Good tactics and skill can overcome some disadvantages. For instance, I was on a team and everyone bailed almost right away, leaving me 1v5. Even with that disadvantage, I was still the kill leader for game (I managed to get exactly zero flags). Yes, I died a lot in that game, but there is no greater satisfaction than having two Warriors come in to spawn kill and my Rogue taking both of them down. I was especially giddy when the two Warriors kept saying to eachother WTF...why don't you shield me noob! :-) Fortunately for me two of the five opponents were there for flag farming, so that effectively left me 1v3.

Truth be told, I've found that I can be especially dominant when surrounded by good team players, and squishy like a plate of Jell-O when I have no support at all. The team tactics really are a huge differentiator and to be most effective, you need variety in your group. I've played in groups with 5 Rogues, and we were run out of the arena by a team with a mix of classes. I've been in teams with 4 Sorcs and my Rogue and we were dominant. I've seen a group of 5 Warriors rampage the arena. I'm honestly not sure why 5 Rogues aren't as good as 5 Sorcs or 5 Warriors, but that has been my experience.

At this point, my biggest issue is just finding a reasonable game. The entire time I was at lv 23, I kept joining in on games with lv 25/26. Obviously, playing 3 levels up leaves you at a severe disadvantage, one which tactics alone cannot overcome. The only time I was able to get kills were either a mistake by the opponent, a lucky crit, or their gear/build was terrible for their level. I hope STS tightens up the level ranges because even now that I'm lv 24, I'm still playing at a disadvantage in most games. A one level disadvantage can be overcome, but 3 or 4 cannot.

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Originally Posted by uzidredar

Trying to force random teams to work smoothly in pvp is absurd. The core of pvp should be based on EVERY class being able to survive 1 on 1.
AL needs to look closely at DL which has a kickass pvp.
Now it makes sense that a good team should have more kills/flags but this is first and foremost a CASUAL cellphone game. I should be able to jump at any time for a quick pvp fight, get 5 fun minutes of fun (and lots of kills :D ) and log off. It's what cellphone games are made for. If you want long winded strategic battles go play Guild Wars or Wow.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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I don't think that you can just expect to get lots of kills in every game. There are games where I have single digit kills, and games where I've had 80+ kills. The beauty of PvP is the variety, the difference in approach, the difference in team constitution, different tactics. That is simply what comes with people playing against people. If you just expect lots of kills in a 5 minute PvP stint, I think your expectations are off. Like I said in my previous post, there are games that I join knowing I am going to get spanked - games where I see it is going to be 1 or 2 v 5 and I play anyway. That's simply the fun of PvP, to see if you can outmaneuver and out gun a group with the obvious advantage. I've made more friends by outclassing the stronger team and showing enough fortitude to keep attacking. If I just bailed every time I felt I was at a disadvantage, people would just see me as a kill farmer, and not have the same degree of respect.

There has been so many cases where I continue to play 1v5 and by the end of the game several of the opponents actually say to me "Thanks", "You're cool", "You can be on my team any time", "I'm going to jump teams", etc. That's the type of respect not gained by simple kill farming, or only playing if you have the advantage.

But yall are only thinking about ctf, when DMs come mages will be farmed. Sts does actually need to balance class capabilities too.

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Originally Posted by Energizeric

So following up on my original post, the next couple of games for me resulted in 1 kill and 16 deaths. So it's all over the place. My success has very little to do with my skill and more to do with the playing style of my team. And since I cannot choose my team, then it's simply a random outcome. I would guess that those with the best K/D ratios are either warriors or are sorcerers/rogues who spend more time choosing which game to play than actually playing. If I keep jumping in and out of games until I find a game where my side has a 2 or more player advantage, then I'd have a wonderful K/D ratio.

I'm just tired of fighting mobs. I'd like a 1-on-1 venue because that beats fighting 1-on-5 which is how most of my fights in the last 10 minutes were.

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My guess just from reading you post and an observation is that the K/D should not be a determination of balance either.

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Originally Posted by Syylent

My guess just from reading you post and an observation is that the K/D should not be a determination of balance either.

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Overall it absolutely should be. Just not on an individual basis. Only STS knows the overall numbers, but in general the overall K/D ratio of each class should be around 1:1. If one class is way better then they should be nerfed, and if one class is way lower they should be buffed.

But on an individual basis I think you can't absolutely say that one player is better than another player because of their K/D ratio. It really depends on who they play with and some luck. I think we all tend to know who the good players are if we spend enough time doing PvP. A good player is the player that when you see him on the other team you know it's going to be a problem. There are a few players that come to mind...

Honestly, overall, I would say that the only class that doesn't average (across all levels and all players) a 1:1 KDR is probably Sorcs, and that's because early on there was a lot of differing builds, most of which were ineffective.

I would also say that the Sorc class has been improving dramatically lately, while the Rogues are tailing off.

Warriors, on the other hand, remain OP and really hasn't seen much of a change.

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Originally Posted by Energizeric

Overall it absolutely should be. Just not on an individual basis. Only STS knows the overall numbers, but in general the overall K/D ratio of each class should be around 1:1. If one class is way better then they should be nerfed, and if one class is way lower they should be buffed.

But on an individual basis I think you can't absolutely say that one player is better than another player because of their K/D ratio. It really depends on who they play with and some luck. I think we all tend to know who the good players are if we spend enough time doing PvP. A good player is the player that when you see him on the other team you know it's going to be a problem. There are a few players that come to mind...

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Well if you are playing in group play does K/D really matter?

I can get a huge K/D in a good group. Mainly because of Razor... For some reason it just hit the death shot.

i can only speak from PvP prior to patch. I won't get into the particulars of post patch.

No I don't think you can. I am probably 50/50 if not a little lower with those deemed the best. (Hi K/D) My is lower than 1:1 because well I don't leave a match even when it is 5 to me.

The tops (that you are referring too) leave quite frequently. All this is prior to this new patch.

Also sans the "glitch" one shot warriors. Don't even get me started on them and their one shot ability.

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Originally Posted by Fluffysox

Screw it, just go straight to building 1v1 please. Like in order and chaos, you can challenge a player anywhere and you guys will fight in the middle of town or in front of bael. Anywhere.

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Team pvp is more challenging than 1v1. You have to actually work together for victory.
How ever... that might be to hard for the current player base..

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Team pvp is more challenging than 1v1. You have to actually work together for victory.
How ever... that might be to hard for the current player base..

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Problem is they don't let us make a team. The teams are random. Nobody likes their fate to be in the hands of strangers. If we are to accept that pvp is a team sport, then let us make our own teams/parties and join a game together instead of having to join random games.

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Originally Posted by Energizeric

Problem is they don't let us make a team. The teams are random. Nobody likes their fate to be in the hands of strangers. If we are to accept that pvp is a team sport, then let us make our own teams/parties and join a game together instead of having to join random games.

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Sounds fine, however players will complain when they get steam rolled by a premade team. Which is why I think if they do allow it, only premades should be allowed to fight other premades. Pugs vs pugs and so on.

Yeah, I remember you and me talking about it. Pvp isnt a team sport. Who knows how we'll do in the 1vs1 tourney. I cant even start a 1vs1 fight.

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Originally Posted by Fluffysox:995855

Screw it, just go straight to building 1v1 please. Like in order and chaos, you can challenge a player anywhere and you guys will fight in the middle of town or in front of bael. Anywhere.

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This please please please

the whole balance posts.. its like every other post LOLOL
the devs might as well just create one class - noone will have a problem