State of: Foxes (PvP)

After 7 months or so, I decided I'd go ahead and finish talking about the classes post-changes. I realize this probably won't make to much of a difference, but I kind of wanted to discuss it a bit with people on forums (I've already spoken to some people in-game). Before I begin, here are the other two threads I made reguarding classes:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...bear-(Endgame)
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...fs!-(For-most)

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Roles

What's a Fox suppose to be? Well, it's suppose to be an Assassin/Melee DPS. Assassins are mobile, stealthy classes that either specialize in bursting people quickly, or poisoning enemies and causing general confusion in enemy ranks. Fox has a little bit of all of that, save for stealth (but stealth would not be good for PL. It would be extremely broken). The main problem with this is that Fox becomes a sort of jack-of-trades class. That said, Fox's poison is essentially.. pointless. It doesn't ACTUALLY hurt people. All it does is reduce their regeneration, which is great against Rhinos, but not useful against anyone else. But we all know how unfortunately weak Rhinos are in single combat, so even that isn't really a plus either. All in all, I believe Foxes got the short end of the stick for all content. It's the 2nd worst AoE DPS class, second rate single-target DPS, and no strong crowd control for PvE content.

Now, to the abilities. First of all, I REALLY like their mobility. It is very fun to dash around mobs constantly. However, there are some things in their ability set that just feels weak in general.
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First of all, their defense buff. Thank goodness for the duration increase (Thank you SO much for changing it, STS!), but there's still one issue with it. Yes, it makes sense for Evade to let Fox jump out of roots, but let's be honest. It's not even a little bit practical. No one in their right mind would save the defense buff against the classes that normally kite (Elves and Birdies). Two solutions for that: Make evade grant a brief immunity to CC, or move the break out to a different ability. Maybe the dashes, or Fox Howl? Besides that, defense buff is good. :)
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Next ability to look at is the heal. Why isn't fox's heal usable in battle, like every other heal? IF you want to give a pure DPS class a heal (I wouldn't, but hey.. I guess everyone else has one, so why not?) then why would it be different on Fox? As it is, it's just not that useful. Sure, it can be okay in PvE, but even that is debatable. Potions aren't that expensive, and much more efficient, and also usable when you're actually in trouble.
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The only other thing I want to bring up about Fox's abilities is the fact that they don't do NEARLY as much damage as Mage or Birdy. Even if they did, both of those classes have good ways to stay alive (besides their normal defense buff). Fox is NOT a safe class at all. Sure, you can chase them.. Assuming you aren't perma rooted. Anyway, the point is, in my opinion, Fox needs a buff that actually impacts the enemy's damage in a meaningful way. -36 damage at rank 6 Fox Howl is most definitely not meaningful when people have about 150+ normal damage. A hit debuff instead of a damage debuff would be the way I'd go for that, but I can also see a stun/root working as well.

Itemization/Stats

Let's be honest, guys. The ONLY reason bears can get away with using 2hs in close range is the fact that they can debuff, stun, and dodge like crazy. Fox can't do that, and they most definitely can't burst people fast enough to make up for that. So what do most foxes do? Use all Str gear to compensate for the class's basic shortcomings (ways to stay alive while in the fight, namely). A class being forced to spec a stat that isn't something their abilities scale on in almost every level just seems wrong to me (cough, bears having zero hit buffs and scaling off a stat that gives no hit %). That said, I like PL's versatility.. I really do! I just want people to viably spec in their class's main stats and items.

Let's discuss! Post questions/comments below. :)

i do agree on the point about evade. seems kind of unfair to have fox's evade buff as getting out of root. although i havent played fox much i think fox does well dps wise. i mean they do have a dmg buff and have close combat skills with 2 leaps. to top that off, you can do up to 3 combos dealing extra damage. i do feel like the fox is lacking something but it's playable. i mean occultformula's rush fox is pretty damn good. when i did play 51 i would see him nuke people left and right even though it would be like a 2v1 or a 3v1.

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Originally Posted by Rescind

i do agree on the point about evade. seems kind of unfair to have fox's evade buff as getting out of root. although i havent played fox much i think fox does well dps wise. i mean they do have a dmg buff and have close combat skills with 2 leaps. to top that off, you can do up to 3 combos dealing extra damage. i do feel like the fox is lacking something but it's playable. i mean occultformula's rush fox is pretty damn good. when i did play 51 i would see him nuke people left and right even though it would be like a 2v1 or a 3v1.

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Oh, by no means is their damage bad. The problem is that it isn't equal to a bird's damage. Plus, their damage is completely reliant on hitting their combo. If they can't hit their combo, they have almost zero damage compared to the original 3 classes. And seeing how their range is dreadfully short for it, it just seems weak to me. Especially for a class that seems like it should be able to at least one shot a Mage (or come close) normally, even without the combo.

I agree....there are mostly close combat skills to use. Like the bites and the whirly-skill are used to get closer to an enemy. Also, like you said the ranges are crazy short being 8m the most. Tbh, I think Evade should be like the birds.


To compensate for the rooting, I think it should be like avian scream or like stomp.

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Originally Posted by Zapoke

Oh, by no means is their damage bad. The problem is that it isn't equal to a bird's damage. Plus, their damage is completely reliant on hitting their combo. If they can't hit their combo, they have almost zero damage compared to the original 3 classes. And seeing how their range is dreadfully short for it, it just seems weak to me. Especially for a class that seems like it should be able to at least one shot a Mage (or come close) normally, even without the combo.

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If a foxes damage was equal to a birds damage then everyone would start saying a Fox is op. By putting a birds damage equal to foes (let's just call the OP damage for now) plus their insane abilities to jump across a map... then what does that make a bird? Their ranged attacks don't really make up for it.

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Originally Posted by XghostzX

If a foxes damage was equal to a birds damage then everyone would start saying a Fox is op. By putting a birds damage equal to foes (let's just call the OP damage for now) plus their insane abilities to jump across a map... then what does that make a bird? Their ranged attacks don't really make up for it.

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In most MMOs, balancing melee and ranged DPS is always an issue. However, usually the melee DPS has a stronger damage output, because ranged classes already have their range as an advantage. Making fox's damage higher wouldn't make them OP, because there would still be counter play, but yes, they would most definitely be able to beat birds almost always. However, seeing how bears in their nature are a hard counter for foxes, I don't honestly see it as a problem. Their ability to jump around is kind of limited though, honestly. If they are 12 meters away from someone, and their pull isn't up, what can they do? Nothing. However, I don't think foxes should have everything I mentioned. Just that they need something (or several somethings) to be more viable. As it is, what's even the point of bringing a fox in any part? They are completely obsolete. They need SOMETHING that they are the best at, and I hardly count jumping around a useful skill when all you can do is die/maybe kill someone who has no buffs.

Even if birds become less of a go-to for single target DPS, what's wrong with that? Foxes need love too. Right now, they're the weakest class over all. I don't care if their damage isn't buffed, but then they'd need something else. Maybe utility?

Zapoke, sorry to burst your bubble but foxes are quite fine. Maybe you are trying out the wrong level or wrong gear. As all classes, they have their strenghts and they have their weaknesses. I see you use a shadow set. Level up to 51 and you will be more versatile. Even 56 or 61 can be ok levels for a fox, regardless if you are a str or dex fox.
Again, with the adequate gear.

What I've come to accept is that everyone's opinions are just that. Opinions. I often hear half of pvpers claim foxes are OP, and the other half stating foxes are squishy and underpowered. Well with that alone I can easily tell both sides don't really know how to use a fox or don't know its weaknesses and strenghts.

If it's a class you admire and love to use, just practice. KDR means nothing. Afterall, there are hundreds of players across all classes with horrible KDRs. This is coming from an avid fox user.

And by the way, a foxes' poison skills are two of the deadliest skills you can use. If you consider them useless, you might want to reconsider.

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Originally Posted by OccultFormula

Zapoke, sorry to burst your bubble but foxes are quite fine. Maybe you are trying out the wrong level or wrong gear. As all classes, they have their strenghts and they have their weaknesses. I see you use a shadow set. Level up to 51 and you will be more versatile. Even 56 or 61 can be ok levels for a fox, regardless if you are a str or dex fox.
Again, with the adequate gear.

What I've come to accept is that everyone's opinions are just that. Opinions. I often hear half of pvpers claim foxes are OP, and the other half stating foxes are squishy and underpowered. Well with that alone I can easily tell both sides don't really know how to use a fox or know its weaknesses and strenghts.

If it's a class you admire and love to use, just practice. KDR means nothing. Afterall, there are hundreds of players across all classes with horrible KDRs. This is coming from an avid fox user.

And by the way, a foxes' poison skills are two of the deadliest skills you can use. If you consider them useless, you might want to reconsider.

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Teach pls.

True.... Fox is a ant compared to the original 3, u get rooted once, ur ded, u get stunned once, ur ded, u get cbed once, ur ded, u get tanked or healed off, ur ded. However fox is only weak in pvp because of how overpowered mages and bears are(mostly bears) a totally unskilled bear can beckon stomp me I'm 1/4 already. The solution is to buff foxes AND rhinos and REMOVE the dmg and dodge nerf, bears lost 2 dodge pffff, foxes and birds lost alot more, as for pve and bandage, I agree it takes forever to run a single map due to howl being the only useful reliable aoe skill, imo hypno should be like beckon and have a aoe combo wit shredder, and foxes are no op in pvp they are by far the second weakest class( maybe even worst with rhibo) to use in terms of all pvp lvl ranges

Honestly zapoke foxes are completely fine. The only issue I see is when they are successfully rooted, frozen, or stunned and are useless from those. Other than that they are quick killers with good debuffs. Maybe because you're using a hate set, with the death shotgun they are awesome. It just takes the right setup and taking advantage of your debuffs and your poison skills. If you're almost dead and can time your skills right just use hypnotize then poison needle and then vixen kick and they fly across the map like a bear who beckon stomps. Also a lot of foxes don't use armor shredder. It is a good thing to have. I've used foxes at most levels from 5-71. There's certainly nothing wrong with them.

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Originally Posted by programmed

Honestly zapoke foxes are completely fine. The only issue I see is when they are successfully rooted, frozen, or stunned and are useless from those. Other than that they are quick killers with good debuffs. Maybe because you're using a hate set, with the death shotgun they are awesome. It just takes the right setup and taking advantage of your debuffs and your poison skills. If you're almost dead and can time your skills right just use hypnotize then poison needle and then vixen kick and they fly across the map like a bear who beckon stomps. Also a lot of foxes don't use armor shredder. It is a good thing to have. I've used foxes at most levels from 5-71. There's certainly nothing wrong with them.

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I actually do pretty well with Hate fox, I don't know what you're talking about (Also, I don't like death fox. Dies WAY to fast). ;) I simply always feel meh while playing them. It's mostly cause Bears and Mages are just stronger than them. That's the only reason I feel they need buffs. But they also have a few things I feel are just.. Kind of out of place. And need to be changed, to me.

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Originally Posted by OccultFormula

Zapoke, sorry to burst your bubble but foxes are quite fine. Maybe you are trying out the wrong level or wrong gear. As all classes, they have their strenghts and they have their weaknesses. I see you use a shadow set. Level up to 51 and you will be more versatile. Even 56 or 61 can be ok levels for a fox, regardless if you are a str or dex fox.
Again, with the adequate gear.

What I've come to accept is that everyone's opinions are just that. Opinions. I often hear half of pvpers claim foxes are OP, and the other half stating foxes are squishy and underpowered. Well with that alone I can easily tell both sides don't really know how to use a fox or don't know its weaknesses and strenghts.

If it's a class you admire and love to use, just practice. KDR means nothing. Afterall, there are hundreds of players across all classes with horrible KDRs. This is coming from an avid fox user.

And by the way, a foxes' poison skills are two of the deadliest skills you can use. If you consider them useless, you might want to reconsider.

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I don't think they are useless, I just think that they aren't the best abilities on a fox. If they actually did DoT, I'd love them, but as it is, the only thing i use them for is extra damage/slows. Also, I've tried fox at 26, 35, 50. I know they're good at 56, but please. That has nothing to do with Foxes.

And I never said this was fact.. These are my observations from playing and watching people play fox.

Fox does more damage than Mage and bird if u know the combos. I get around the stun issue and I'm positive. All depends on how much time u put in. However, I do thank you for putting in some input for the community.

PM me if u have any questions on fox in the ign Congeniality

I know its not pvp, but i was running through shadow caves yesterday with me as a 73 bird in molten gear, a 73 bear in molten, and a 49 rhino. It was going dreadfully slow. Soon as a 74 fox also wearing molten joined, it was like we shifted into maximum overdrive! Bosses that were taking ten minutes to kill (yikes!) were now taking only three. we were now grouping bosses together, instead of tackling them one at a time. And the fox was tanking, too. With only a 1.25x combo, that fox was kicking some serious arse. I dont know how well pve translates to pvp, but from what i want to think i know, foxes are far from underleveled. Its obvious though that they require a great deal more of skill than other classes to be successful.

Also, gotta agree with the guy above me. Thanks zapoke for putting out some thought provoking and constructively well written posts :) its rare nowadays.