2018-08-09 Content Update (257521)

I haven't tried the new gold loot system and being required to pick up the gold.

Personally I don't mind this, and it will take some adjustment when farming, but will become second nature to do.

The extra time to pick up loot is a sacrifice, I'm willing to make, if it does stop those six level 85 mages from botting gold 24/7.

I understand the frustrations from others because its a new system and more time consuming. But try it and you too will get used to it.

Cinco is willing to listen, to find the best solution to counter these gold bots. Lets help him by suggesting more solutions to this issue and not attack him for making a change that inconveniences ourselves.


I'm looking forward to the event this weekend, farming with others will be a welcome change. And can't wait to try the new Zap vanity.

The buffs on the staff will be fun to test, and will make the staff popular more in pve.

Thank you for all your hard work Cinco and the STS team, keep listening and sharing the love for PL.

Before a user enters a gold loot map, have the game select a gold loot map (max 2-3) randomly. Another method is change the initial state of the player on the map. Instead of having one initial terminal, have them at a different location.

@Cinco: Here are my thoughts on this matter in case you missed them after posting in Xyzther's original thread:

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Originally Posted by Dolloway

The answer to combat gold botting isn't to make people pick up gold loot again. Not only is picking up gold loot tedious, this isn't a full fledged solution to gold botting. There are zones that people can bot with infinite mobs that spawn (Lost Valley, Lost Villas, etc.) and their bot will just continue to walk over the gold over time or when they get back to their PC.

The correct thing to do is to make several gold farming maps and randomize which map the player receives when they host an instance or join a portal. Ideally, this would happen for every campaign map, but I know that isn't feasible. So another option is to make spawn points randomized in regular PVE maps in order to throw off the bot.

We can also majorly nerf the amount of gold from mobs in regular PVE maps outside of gold farming zones and for compensation, increase the liquidation value of items by 5-10x as Xyzther previously mentioned.

I truly would rather not go back to picking up gold loot again, especially when it isn't a concrete solution to bots because there are numerous ways around it.

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I have indeed seen your thoughts. Similarly I have posted my thoughts about random dungeons in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Cinco

I have indeed seen your thoughts. Similarly I have posted my thoughts about random dungeons in this thread.

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Cool. I understand now why it would be difficult to implement the first solution I proposed.

Do you think it would be possible to go with Xyzther's solution of nerfing gold in PVE maps but raising the liquidation value of items to compensate?

Or perhaps make it so that gold needs to be picked up in Alien Oasis campaigns 1-3 and Shadow Caves maps (where the most gold is obtained), while other maps are left untouched?

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Originally Posted by Cinco

I investigated random dungeons and encountered a number of significant technical and production-related obstacles that prevent me from implementing this sort of solution in the short / mid-term. This idea is still on the table for the future but know that it will require much more than I can give to it right now.

Something to consider: I see parity in logic behind the argument that bots will not be affected by loot placement and apply that to the very limited number of layout combinations that can exist with the PL dungeon tile sets. Thus, even if I were to implement randomized layouts I would probably still keep the loot drop / pick up system to ensure the highest degree of difficulty for optimizing gold-farming bots.

Another issue is relative value of dungeons in a random suite. I assert that random dungeon variation requires length as an axis (in addition to layout) or the randomization set is too small. Arcane Legends, for instance, has random dungeon layouts with random lengths. If I used the same approach for gold-farming zones I would need to apply a variance in profitability that makes tier separations much more difficult and has the added down-side of providing much less gold to certain players based on their dungeon.

Thanks for giving this change the time it deserves (or at least half as much time as it took me to develop, implement and test).

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Keep up the good work man! I appreciate all the hard work you are putting in to make this game awesome!!

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Originally Posted by Cinco

I investigated random dungeons and encountered a number of significant technical and production-related obstacles that prevent me from implementing this sort of solution in the short / mid-term. This idea is still on the table for the future but know that it will require much more than I can give to it right now.

Something to consider: I see parity in logic behind the argument that bots will not be affected by loot placement and apply that to the very limited number of layout combinations that can exist with the PL dungeon tile sets. Thus, even if I were to implement randomized layouts I would probably still keep the loot drop / pick up system to ensure the highest degree of difficulty for optimizing gold-farming bots.

Another issue is relative value of dungeons in a random suite. I assert that random dungeon variation requires length as an axis (in addition to layout) or the randomization set is too small. Arcane Legends, for instance, has random dungeon layouts with random lengths. If I used the same approach for gold-farming zones I would need to apply a variance in profitability that makes tier separations much more difficult and has the added down-side of providing much less gold to certain players based on their dungeon.

Thanks for giving this change the time it deserves (or at least half as much time as it took me to develop, implement and test).

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I very much am already getting used to picking up up gold but its still a tedious process. Im not opposed to improving the way it is now but at the end of the day, i dont see botting ending anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Cinco

I have indeed seen your thoughts. Similarly I have posted my thoughts about random dungeons in this thread.

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Will there be weapons and amulets available from the vendor? People are trying to hike up the price of staff and amulets. Some still need gold amulets.

I must be different and weird because I'm loving the gold loot now.

I enjoy seeing the explosions of gold, and eager to pick it up and see the amount of gold I looted.

I love the pink aura that my character glows when its been picked up.

Thank you for adding these effects on game, I love it.

This event is definitely catered to plat spenders. The problem in teams is kill steals and also getting put with random levels that do little to no damage. This is another event that will require a ridiculous amount of time to even get bronze tier. Its not scaled to solo without elixirs at all. Took me 7 minutes to complete 1 run for 300 points on a 3x combo. Either the point thresholds need reduced or the scaling needs to be better for solo. Even allowing us the use of warbird would greatly encourage people to run this map for gold tier.

I understand from what it seems that you always want the maximum amount of participants to enjoy this event and grind it out. With the point thresholds and where it is right now, it requires too much time for alot of people. Id say allowing warbird would be the best option for this to be easier for both parties and solo players.

The amount of time it takes to get some points is unreal. I'm not participating unless there's some changes. Hello lake Tahoe :) I got better things to do with my time this weekend at this rate.

Could you add something like a small puzzle that a player has to solve every n-hours/minuits to auto-collect gold?
It could be some simple math like adding numbers up to ten. This would probably help us to get rid of most bots

I have participated in every event so far both pvp and pve and whenever it was solo i hit gold tier and kept climbing but for the first time i feel like hitting bronze and bailing out, even the gold farm map is not enough of a motivation with how the things are.

Before i start i must say new map is an awesome change so much better than the dark boring theme we had. The problem is there are so many things being tested in this as far as i can see, can you put multi option in future events? Is it possible to scale solo and multi differently? How high are the tresholds? Etc for future references but it is making the current event so tedious.

Currently in solo you can run it in about 7mins for 330 points and in multi you get between 90-150 depending on your last blow kill stealing skills. This damages the core of teamwork and encourage people to save combos for guaranteed high dmg final blows, i paired up with a lvl45 3times eventhough im 105 and left on the last one, we just got our warbirds for myxx maps but we are unable to benefit from them in this. I feel like eventhough this was meant to be a party event and encourage multi runs, if you want points and have some patience, solo is the way to go because of its guaranteed points. That doesnt mean the scaling and tresholds are fine as they are but its better than multi.

Since you want everyone to have access to rewards possible solutions to problems are, increasing blue skeleton points to 3, bosses to 50, halving the points required to hit each tier, scaling the mobs for solo dungeon so its more player friendly and allowing warbird to work since its a myxx orianted dungeon.

Thanks for the event but i dont see many aiming for gold and hope you can change some things based on all feedbacks.

It’s the first attempt at a multiplayer event we all knew their was possible problems that would come. Cinco fixes everything through trial and error. If you actually play the game you can get 35k. It is harder for lower levels and might be a disadvantage, but good things take multiple trys. Keep doing you Cinco!

I hope the point system will be changed, I have to agree with others -- it takes way too long!

I think that until people bring forward an argument for another solution to the problem, one that Cinco has not already addressed as not being possible at the current time, there should be no grounds to say that this change shouldn't take place. To say such would be to say that you care more about your relative convenience than the bots. Which I can understand, but shouldn't the integrity of the game come first?

When I play, I want to feel as though my efforts mean something, something that some bot won't be able to mimic and do 10 times better than me with no repercussions. Thus, I feel that this change, which Cinco has clearly explained is the only possible solution at the present time, is one that is needed for the game, regardless of convenience or annoyance to pick up the drops.

As a final note, to say that you want the bots stopped, but that you also don't want the only possible solution to take place feels very hypocritical. If you truly want the bots stopped, wouldn't the only possible solution be what you want to take place? But then you may say, "Not when it comes as a hindrance to my play," at which point, if that is the case, I ask, "Then did you really want the bots stopped, or was it just a novel idea that crossed your mind?"

Thanks,
Walie

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Originally Posted by Congeniality

I think that until people bring forward an argument for another solution to the problem, one that Cinco has not already addressed as not being possible at the current time, there should be no grounds to say that this change shouldn't take place. To say such would be to say that you care more about your relative convenience than the bots. Which I can understand, but shouldn't the integrity of the game come first?

When I play, I want to feel as though my efforts mean something, something that some bot won't be able to mimic and do 10 times better than me with no repercussions. Thus, I feel that this change, which Cinco has clearly explained is the only possible solution at the present time, is one that is needed for the game, regardless of convenience or annoyance to pick up the drops.

As a final note, to say that you want the bots stopped, but that you also don't want the only possible solution to take place feels very hypocritical. If you truly want the bots stopped, wouldn't the only possible solution be what you want to take place? But then you may say, "Not when it comes as a hindrance to my play," at which point, if that is the case, I ask, "Then did you really want the bots stopped, or was it just a novel idea that crossed your mind?"

Thanks,
Walie

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Everyone already explained why this wont be much a problem for bots and how we can implement other things. I get that you said “for now” but i will make it simple and blunt.

We dont want to spend twice the amount of time running a map compared to before because of 6 people which is like 99.xxx% to 0.xxx1%. We put enough effort to farm no need for extras when a bot can just run in a zig zag instead of moving forward now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Congeniality

I think that until people bring forward an argument for another solution to the problem, one that Cinco has not already addressed as not being possible at the current time, there should be no grounds to say that this change shouldn't take place. To say such would be to say that you care more about your relative convenience than the bots. Which I can understand, but shouldn't the integrity of the game come first?

When I play, I want to feel as though my efforts mean something, something that some bot won't be able to mimic and do 10 times better than me with no repercussions. Thus, I feel that this change, which Cinco has clearly explained is the only possible solution at the present time, is one that is needed for the game, regardless of convenience or annoyance to pick up the drops.

As a final note, to say that you want the bots stopped, but that you also don't want the only possible solution to take place feels very hypocritical. If you truly want the bots stopped, wouldn't the only possible solution be what you want to take place? But then you may say, "Not when it comes as a hindrance to my play," at which point, if that is the case, I ask, "Then did you really want the bots stopped, or was it just a novel idea that crossed your mind?"

Thanks,
Walie

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I don't really care at this point if the bots are stopped. Bots have been in the game since the level 56 cap when the game was released on Chrome nearly eight years ago.

If we are going to attempt to completely stop the bots, then taking the time to create a full fledged solution that everyone is happy with would be best instead of implementing a quick one that causes the player base to suffer as a result of the actions of a handful of players controlling multiple bots (probably 2-3 players botting). The entire player base shouldn't have to be inconvenienced as a result of the actions of 2-3 people currently botting.

I'm fully on board to wait six months to have a proper solution implemented to stop gold bots in the game - we've been waiting eight years... What's another six months?

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Originally Posted by Dolloway

I don't really care at this point if the bots are stopped. Bots have been in the game since the level 56 cap when the game was released on Chrome nearly eight years ago.

If we are going to attempt to completely stop the bots, then taking the time to create a full fledged solution that everyone is happy with would be best instead of implementing a quick one that causes the player base to suffer as a result of the actions of a handful of players controlling multiple bots (probably 2-3 players botting). The entire player base shouldn't have to be inconvenienced as a result of the actions of 2-3 people currently botting.

I'm fully on board to wait six months to have a proper solution implemented to stop gold bots in the game - we've been waiting eight years... What's another six months?

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Do something perfect or do nothing. With all due respect, this is a false choice.

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Originally Posted by Cinco

Do something perfect or do nothing. With all due respect, this is a false choice.

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That doesn't mean we can't take half-measures in the meantime while a full fledged solution is worked on. I strongly believe that picking up gold isn't the best half-measure though because it inconveniences the majority of the player base due to the actions of 2-3 people as I previously said. Private messaging you with information about these bots so that you may ban them seems like a fine short-term action for the time being. If people see action being taken, they will be more hesitant to create and use bots.

We also have the option of heavily nerfing the gold received in lower level maps and leaving the best gold loot drops for higher tier maps that aren't easily soloable. This would also create more of an incentive for players to level up a higher level character so that they may farm gold in higher tier maps (thus pushing more players to have at least one endgame class and spend money on the game).

That being said, I don't mean any disrespect towards you so I hope my words haven't come across as such. I know that it can be a difficult task to both fully stop bots and please your player-base at the same time. Many popular games still face problems with botting even with massive support teams working on the game 24/7. If even the most popular games still face botting issues, I cannot imagine it being an easy task for you alone to stop it completely.