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    Default AL Economy in Recession??

    Yes, we are having economic problems here in AL. Speak to any merchant and they will tell you that nobody is buying anything lately. Most players who have items they want to sell are finding that when they list them in the auction, they just don't sell. There are many theories why this is happening, so here I will explain the problems:

    Theory #1) Gold for Plat purchases has destroyed the economy!

    Answer: WRONG....

    Gold for Plat purchases increase the amount of gold in circulation, which causes inflation. In a global economy with many different countries (and thus many different currencies), when one country's currency has massive inflation, other countries may refuse to accept that currency as payment for goods and services, so that currency is devalued even more causing even more rapid inflation. The end result in runaway inflation which can cripple an economy.

    However, unlike in the real world there are no other currencies in AL, so you can never have runaway inflation. Players cannot decide to trade in their gold for another currency. We are forced to use gold. So in the end, gold for plat purchases only cause a steady inflation which causes prices of all items to rise equally. It does not however cause any other problems with the economy.

    And if gold loses enough of its value over time, fewer and fewer players will buy gold for plat since the amount of gold you are getting would not be worth the exchange anymore. Unless STS was to increase the amount of gold offered per plat spent (which they have never done), this will not be affected any.


    Theory #2) Locked crates destroy the economy because the mythic and arcane items are way too rare.

    Answer: WRONG....

    Rare and expensive items never destroy any economy. If anything, they give incentive for people to work towards obtaining those items. There is a reason people work hard for a living in some countries while in others they don't get much productivity out of the work force. It all depends on how much upward mobility there is. Yes, not everyone will be able to obtain the best items --- if it were possible for everyone to obtain, then they wouldn't be "rare", and they would no longer be "expensive". But some players who work hard will be able to obtain these items, and that alone actually helps the economy.


    Theory #3) Locked crates destroy the economy because of the cheap and common "junk" pinks that come out of them.

    Answer: CORRECT!

    Locked crates are destroying the economy because there is a pink legendary item in each crate, some which have very good stats (Bonechill Bow for example). Because there is one in every crate, these "crate pinks" have become so common that the price of them has fallen to less than 500 gold each in many cases. Since the stats of these crate pinks are often times better than some of the pinks that come from Elite Chests and some of the pinks that fall from Elite Bosses, those pinks are losing their value as well.

    As a result, an end game player can gear up his character with decent legendary pink gear for only a few thousand gold. Beyond that there is really no other options for most players. The "elite" pinks that drop from bosses (noble armors/helms, entombed hammers, nordr staffs, etc.) are only slightly better than the crate pinks, and since the cost of these elite pinks is 20x as much as the crate pinks, players have pretty much stopped buying these items as well. It's just not worth such a big price increase for such a small stat increase.

    So in order to get noticeably better stats than the crate pinks, you must go all the way up to mythics which cost 30m+ for a complete set. Since most players do not see the possibility of ever being able to afford these very expensive items, they have given up and are just in a holding pattern where they are saving their gold for next season.

    "Elite" end game players normally spend their time farming the elite dungeons, and selling the elite chests/pinks that they get. They then save their gold and buy the pricey mythic and arcane items. However, since nobody is buying the elite chests & pinks, these players have been unable to raise much gold. As a result, players with mythic and arcane items for sale are also having problems selling those items as nobody can afford them. Normally when nobody can afford an item the price will drop. But since players know this will all change once the next season starts, most of them are holding their pricey items and waiting to sell until they find a buyer who will pay the high price.

    And of course merchants (including myself) have not been able to make much gold on anything lately, so I've stopped merching for the most part.


    WHAT IS THE SOLUTION???

    Answer:

    The only "fix" to these problems would be the following:

    1) STS must step in and buy up all the excess crate pinks in the auction (just as the Federal Reserve bought up the crap mortgages when our economy was on the verge of collapse 5 years ago). Let STS make a toon, give that toon a few million gold, and let them buy up every crate pink in the auction that is priced below what they decide should be the floor for these items. And continue to do that for a week or two until the prices of these items rebound to what they should be.

    2) Stop giving a legendary pink item in every crate. Let the crates have a chance for a pink -- maybe 1 in 10. Because right now it doesn't even matter that you get a pink in each crate if they are worth only 500 gold each. Nobody cares and nobody is opening crates to get these cheap crappy pinks. Players are only happy when they get mythic or arcane. So at least if the pinks were worth what a pink should be worth, players would be happy when they get one.

    Once these crate pinks go back up in price, the elite pinks will become a worthy alternative again and players will start buying those again, and then the "elite" players will be able to sell the items they farm and they too will now have extra cash to spend on mythics and the whole economy will start moving again, which is what I think we all want. I think this would even result in players opening more crates, not less. Because if you knew opening a crate was more than an "all or nothing" chance, maybe you would be more likely to open one.
    Last edited by Energizeric; 06-22-2013 at 12:28 AM.

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    Economics has proven that setting a "floor" price is not the way to fix things.

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    In point 1 of solutions..if sts creates a toon n put sum millions in it den dose millions circulate all over arlor wich came frm nowhere..thus causin imbalances in economy....
    In point 2-it wud b bettr to decrease d rarity of mythics dan increasin rarity of pinks
    In point 3-if ppl start buying elite chests d prices of dese chests wil go up..
    At the end-u cant really do anything to make it a better economy coz its a VICIOUS CIRCLE which revolves around plats

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    Other problems:

    1) There is a lack of influx of gold into the economy. Unlike other sts games it is hard to make a significant amount of gold from gold drops and liquidating junk items you get from drops. The price of feeding pets and buying pots pretty much eats away at any significant amount of money you gain this way. Furthermore, in the beginning of the game I think there was a lot of gold purchase with plat which fueled the economy. I know I did it once or twice in the beginning, but have not since season one. With the advent of crates, much plat spending has likely shifted from buying gold to opening crates in an attempt to get lucky and make a huge amount of gold from mythic and arcane items. This has decreased the influx of gold into the game via plat. Perhaps this is one reason sts started putting gold into the crates, in a last ditch attempt to influx more gold into a failing economy.

    2) Of the gold that is in the game, it appears to have been concentrating in the hands of a few very rich people, especially those that deal in high value items. Not that these players should be blamed for their success, but it leaves less money in the hands of others to keep the economy moving, especially if there in not a constant influx of new gold into the game for the new players.

    3) In addition to the market being saturated by pinks from crates, it is also being saturated by pinks from the elite mines and the arena. Noble armor has been dropping like rain from the arena, and just look what it has done to the prices in the auction house.

    4) A lot of prominent players have been leaving the game in the last season or two, taking their gold with them.

    The list goes on, and is multifactorial with no good fix, although I believe the root of the problem is a lack of influx of gold into the economy.

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    Crates shouldn't even be implemented. Because if pinks didn't drop so much from crates then the hard working farmers will be able to sell their good pinks once again since many people are too lazy to farm their own items. Just think about it for a minute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkullCrusher View Post
    Crates shouldn't even be implemented. Because if pinks didn't drop so much from crates then the hard working farmers will be able to sell their good pinks once again since many people are too lazy to farm their own items. Just think about it for a minute.
    -Skull.
    Too lazy? Or can't. The only farming I see going on is in rooks nest. This game isn't conducive to large scale elite running.

    Most of the selling I see in the trader's forum is for mythic or twink stuff. Or pets. Who is farming? Hardly anyone. It can't really be argued. The numbers speak for themselves. Look in cs and see how many good noble items are available.

    What IS there an abundance of? Malison. Why, because it's am easier map to farm. And really the only one I consistently find pugs at.

    There's a simple fix, but the powers that be don't want it to change for the reasons you mentioned. Crates are being opened. A lot. Why change?

    In my opinion, pugs are the most important part of the game for the majority of players. There are a small minority that can easily pick up a party and farm elite. The rest? Well they're stuck farming nexus and malison. Pugs have been major problem since kraken was released. The party system should be fixed. It will take this game to a different level.

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    Last edited by Rare; 06-22-2013 at 07:09 AM.

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    I think the problem its the best items re overpriced, cause of this the people didnt buy it, for example mythic amulet for warrior last price in cs 5,5M , crazy price , only up int ,armor and heal stats not the dmg abd dps , conclusion: overpriced.
    Mythic ring cost the same to mythic armor , thats crazy because mythic armor have better stats.
    Arcane pets now costs: 15-20M , thats crazy because the stats rent arcane stats, overpriced too.

    This is the problem energizeric, the players who have the better items to sell are greedy.

    Thanks and regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Puntus View Post
    I think the problem its the best items re overpriced, cause of this the people didnt buy it, for example mythic amulet for warrior last price in cs 5,5M , crazy price , only up int ,armor and heal stats not the dmg abd dps , conclusion: overpriced.
    Mythic ring cost the same to mythic armor , thats crazy because mythic armor have better stats.
    Arcane pets now costs: 15-20M , thats crazy because the stats rent arcane stats, overpriced too.

    This is the problem energizeric, the players who have the better items to sell are greedy.

    Thanks and regards
    Arcane pets should be priced as such considering their rarity. In the world of Arlor, only 2 classes remains, those poor and the mythic players, the middle class are slowly disappearing and some, imo, are quitting the game. Why? because, there's not much to do for average players? Dailies, pvp (needs the best gear to excel).

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    Prices on mythics maintain high because of people hoarding them in bundles, market price should be 20-30% lower and return to same level with new cap.
    I agree with TimeWizard, there is not much to do for average player. Hence it's time for new Legend-series game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedenos View Post
    Too lazy? Or can't. The only farming I see going on is in rooks nest. This game isn't conducive to large scale elite running.

    Most of the selling I see in the trader's forum is for mythic or twink stuff. Or pets. Who is farming? Hardly anyone. It can't really be argued. The numbers speak for themselves. Look in cs and see how many good noble items are available.

    What IS there an abundance of? Malison. Why, because it's am easier map to farm. And really the only one I consistently find pugs at.

    There's a simple fix, but the powers that be don't want it to change for the reasons you mentioned. Crates are being opened. A lot. Why change?

    In my opinion, pugs are the most important part of the game for the majority of players. There are a small minority that can easily pick up a party and farm elite. The rest? Well they're stuck farming nexus and malison. Pugs have been major problem since kraken was released. The party system should be fixed. It will take this game to a different level.

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
    Exactly what the problem is. As said a million times before, PL is the most successful STS game because of it's balance between farmers and merchants, the ability to join quick games, and the ease to make gold through liquidation; NONE of which exist in AL. I said during Beta, the plat for gold exchange would ruin the game... and it is.

    I am sorry Energizeric, but if you, and others, don't see this then you're not being realistic. When people can buy their gold, there is no NEED to farm. Everyone just sits and waits on the few crates to fall into cs from the few farmers while the others PvP or spend all their time working toward the timed run LB's. And as Aedenos pointed out (and JaytB mentioned in PL yesterday), organizing farming runs is a pain. This reduces the amount of farmers thus decreasing the amount of crates in game. A strong point in all STS games is non-existent in their *cough* most popular.

    Another problem you are running into which you do not see (or haven't realized) is a lot of people are beginning to return to their original STS loves and are abandoning AL. Many others are running to other games outside of the STS library. This is easy to see by just watching forums each day. Justg's assessment of this games popularity is based on downloads, which is a false positive. This means people may be downloading it, but doesn't mean they are sticking with it as they have with PL.

    There is more to this than just one simple explanation as you have shown. You are looking in from a merchants point of view. I have heard from others many issues currently at hand. Ease of play in these games is HUGE and something AL just cannot offer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheStoic View Post
    Arcane pets should be priced as such considering their rarity. In the world of Arlor, only 2 classes remains, those poor and the mythic players, the middle class are slowly disappearing and some, imo, are quitting the game. Why? because, there's not much to do for average players? Dailies, pvp (needs the best gear to excel).
    The part about PvP I disagree with as I've maybe spent 150k or so on gear and can fair just fine. As for the economy, it is screwed up and people have been saying this for awhile. Usually those posts get deleted very quickly such as the case with a few of Cains and Grimmys posts about this. Maybe they worded it wrong but the truth is the truth and something has to be done or this game will die very soon.

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    maybe some of huge amount of gold owner has blocked the flux eh ?

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    In my country one dolar cost 10pesos! For me is impossible!!! I will delete this game cause is a lie!!!

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    it is true that gold influx is slow nowadays. i think it is because it is so hard to farm right now. unlike those days when farming was a breeze i.e. elite brackenbridge was just 1-2mins, new players gain gold easily unlike now.

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    What lie? You can download for free, play for free, get all the best gear for free (with a ton of work)... but you can enjoy the game for free with minimal effort.

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    I agree with most player who posted here (Especially Aedenos, CrimsonTider, and DrGrimmy).

    I just like to add that on top of not getting decent gold drops to both be able to feed pets, pot up, and continuously farm like we normally do in other StS games.. oh and having to deal with the over priced items like someone else mentioned... we have a VERY HORRIBLE drop rate for "good" pinks (including eggs) without the use of elixirs. Which also make it difficult to keep up with all the expenses (including ridiculous listing fees).

    The combination of high prices, high listing fees, pet feeds, potting up with a horrible drop rate without elixirs AND hardly any gold being looted on runs or quests AND liquidating items is pretty useless AND not everyone being good at merching... is simply not worth putting any effort into farming as new expansions and caps rise. Because theres no reward unless you have the plat to dish out.

    Honestly, I miss the casual aspect of the StS games. When we could farm for about twenty mins and have some drops to make a decent profit to be able to afford the vital things in AL (pet feeds, pots, listing fees) at the level 16 & 21 caps... full elite runs... good ol' fashioned FUN! Once that casual aspect was tossed out the window, everything eventually went down hill from there. I just hope they can figure out better ways to fix all of these problems rooting in the AL economy without making it feel like its a full time job (or even a chore -.-) to make a profit on a freaken game... a game thats supposed to be time away from all that to begin with.

    EDIT: Don't get me wrong, Im not saying make it easy! Im saying make it more casual and less of a chore. Challenging yet simple enough that it doesn't take about an hour for an elite run to finish... oh and more gold looted during those runs... so we can continue. For the love of gaming, give us stuff to farm that actually DROP WITHOUT ELIXERS.

    Last edited by Lady_Pebbles; 06-22-2013 at 01:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drgrimmy View Post
    Other problems:

    1) There is a lack of influx of gold into the economy. Unlike other sts games it is hard to make a significant amount of gold from gold drops and liquidating junk items you get from drops. The price of feeding pets and buying pots pretty much eats away at any significant amount of money you gain this way. Furthermore, in the beginning of the game I think there was a lot of gold purchase with plat which fueled the economy. I know I did it once or twice in the beginning, but have not since season one. With the advent of crates, much plat spending has likely shifted from buying gold to opening crates in an attempt to get lucky and make a huge amount of gold from mythic and arcane items. This has decreased the influx of gold into the game via plat. Perhaps this is one reason sts started putting gold into the crates, in a last ditch attempt to influx more gold into a failing economy.

    2) Of the gold that is in the game, it appears to have been concentrating in the hands of a few very rich people, especially those that deal in high value items. Not that these players should be blamed for their success, but it leaves less money in the hands of others to keep the economy moving, especially if there in not a constant influx of new gold into the game for the new players.

    3) In addition to the market being saturated by pinks from crates, it is also being saturated by pinks from the elite mines and the arena. Noble armor has been dropping like rain from the arena, and just look what it has done to the prices in the auction house.

    4) A lot of prominent players have been leaving the game in the last season or two, taking their gold with them.

    The list goes on, and is multifactorial with no good fix, although I believe the root of the problem is a lack of influx of gold into the economy.

    Yes, this is indeed a big issue as well. Maybe STS should increase gold drops in dungeons. I'm sure just a small increase would have a large affect. But yes, there does not seem to be enough gold floating around. Most players (including myself) do not have enough gold at this time to buy anything that is better than the gear they already have, so as I stated above they are in a holding pattern and waiting for something to happen. More gold in circulation could solve that issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonTider View Post
    Exactly what the problem is. As said a million times before, PL is the most successful STS game because of it's balance between farmers and merchants, the ability to join quick games, and the ease to make gold through liquidation; NONE of which exist in AL. I said during Beta, the plat for gold exchange would ruin the game... and it is.

    I am sorry Energizeric, but if you, and others, don't see this then you're not being realistic. When people can buy their gold, there is no NEED to farm. Everyone just sits and waits on the few crates to fall into cs from the few farmers while the others PvP or spend all their time working toward the timed run LB's. And as Aedenos pointed out (and JaytB mentioned in PL yesterday), organizing farming runs is a pain. This reduces the amount of farmers thus decreasing the amount of crates in game. A strong point in all STS games is non-existent in their *cough* most popular.

    Another problem you are running into which you do not see (or haven't realized) is a lot of people are beginning to return to their original STS loves and are abandoning AL. Many others are running to other games outside of the STS library. This is easy to see by just watching forums each day. Justg's assessment of this games popularity is based on downloads, which is a false positive. This means people may be downloading it, but doesn't mean they are sticking with it as they have with PL.

    There is more to this than just one simple explanation as you have shown. You are looking in from a merchants point of view. I have heard from others many issues currently at hand. Ease of play in these games is HUGE and something AL just cannot offer.
    This thread was specifically about the economy. Yes, I know there are other problems that the game has, but I was specifically addressing the economic issues here. But yes I agree with much of what you say.

    I know a lot of the ranting here is coming from players who are young and have no economic knowledge outside of just thinking about it. I've taken many courses in economics when I was in college and have a good friend who is a wall street investment banker, so I do understand the macro economic issues here. The solution to fix the economy is to get it "going" -- meaning to get people buying and selling items again.

    Any of you who are Americans probably remember all the talk several years ago of "stimulus", and the debates over how to fix the economy. That is what we need here, some sort of stimulus. As Grimmy mentioned, one way is to give an influx of gold into the economy.

    Increasing or decreasing drop rates slightly is not going to fix anything. If they make more malison and nexus eggs fall, then the price of those items will just drop more. If they increase the drop rate of malison eggs by 100 times, then malison eggs will sell for 500 gold. I know it may "feel good" if you get more pink drops, but your bottom line is going to be the same at the end of the day. The issue is when I look in the auction and see 57 Radiant Stability rogue armors with the lowest listed for 175 gold, and this armor has stats almost as good as Noble & Champion rogue armor. This in itself is not a problem, but when the next best rogue armor beyond noble costs 11m gold (mythic), you have no middle between 175 gold and 11m gold. That is the problem right there. As was said above, there is no "middle class" in terms of gear. There is mythic players and then there is everyone else. There needs to be a middle.

    If you are currently geared in the 175 gold armor, you need to have a path to upgrade incrementally. The player who has 5k gold saved does not see any possibility to reach 11m, so he just gives up and stops playing. If there was a nice armor that cost 10k gold which was a decent upgrade from what he had, then he would be inspired to work towards that.

    So the solution is to make all the lower end gear less common, including the purples and greens even. Then the player with 175 gold would not be wearing the crate gear, but maybe would be wearing green gear. Then maybe for 1k he could upgrade to purple. Maybe the crate gear costs 10-20k, then the champion 30-40k, and then the noble 100k, and then it would be nice to see something even a little bit more premium between the noble and the mythic, maybe in that 1m price range.

    There needs to be a path of upward mobility and enough gold in circulation that a player can work towards upgrading his gear and have incremental steps along the way. That will create more of a "middle class" in AL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Energizeric View Post
    So the solution is to make all the lower end gear less common, including the purples and greens even. Then the player with 175 gold would not be wearing the crate gear, but maybe would be wearing green gear. Then maybe for 1k he could upgrade to purple. Maybe the crate gear costs 10-20k, then the champion 30-40k, and then the noble 100k, and then it would be nice to see something even a little bit more premium between the noble and the mythic, maybe in that 1m price range.

    There needs to be a path of upward mobility and enough gold in circulation that a player can work towards upgrading his gear and have incremental steps along the way. That will create more of a "middle class" in AL.
    Then the green and purples need to have better stats as they have now to be actualy worth wearing. and noble i didnt see much noble around 100k. in the beginning of the expansion they costed 1m+. now the price is low but stats favourable noble costs still more then 100k.
    But in general i like that idea. brings more variety and greens and purples can be more valuable not just junk predestined to be deleted.

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