Feedback Request: No more Elite Dungeons

[Energizeric]

This is a great idea. I really do miss the whole aspect of farming for twink gear which was such a big part of Pocket Legends. I spent so much time in PL farming for those rare level 5 & 15 recipes, and the sand caves gear. We would do this with our end game characters. Yes, it was easy, but it provided a nice casual way to farm by yourself or with a buddy without needing a whole party of pro end gamers, and you could loot some of the best gear on rare occasion. Just make sure the best gear drops (or elite chests) are very rare, and the price of those items will not suffer. You don't want players complaining that their twink items were worth 100k and now are selling for 2k because they fall from Jarl like rain.

With the way the elite dungeons have been so far, my first big complaint is that all the gear becomes discontinued. Nobody can ever loot a level 16 flamestrike rod again. I don't think it should be that way. (I'm sure those who have a stash of these discontinued items will disagree for personal reasons LOL)

Anyone who knows me, knows that I always lobby in favor of having very rare gear that's almost impossible to loot and cost a fortune to buy. But I have never been in favor of gear being discontinued. I suppose it's nice to have certain stuff be discontinued like certain holiday gear, and plat stuff like vanities or stuff from plat chests like the founders/forerunner gear. But the regular elite gear from each campaign should still be available to be looted.

So here is my suggestion:

1) Have the original campaign be for level 1-16 as it was originally intended. For this campaign, make it so we can sell the elite chests. And make those elite chests drop level 15/16 elite gear. No need for the level 20/21/25 versions of these items. Yes, I suppose these level 20/21/25 items would be discontinued if this change was made (the level 20/21 versions are already discontinued), but I don't see a problem there.

2) Have the Dead City campaign be for level 20/21 items as was originally intended. Discontinue the "Elite Banded II Chests" and start dropping the "Elite Banded Chests" again. Yes, level 25/30 versions of these items would become discontinued, but this campaign was originally intended for level 20/21.

3) Have the Kraken Isles campaign be for level 25/26 items as was originally intended. Discontinue the "Elite Pirate II Chests" and start dropping the "Elite Pirate Chests" again. Yes, level 30 versions of these items would become discontinued, but this campaign was originally intended for level 25/26.

Now the big question is when to drop Elite Chests instead of regular Chests (and elite pink gear/eggs instead of regular pink gear/eggs). I suppose you have 3 options here:

1) Make it a percentage chance. So maybe 10% of the time you would get a regular chest, you instead get an elite chest. Same goes for "elite" gear and eggs that drop directly from bosses (items like Malison Egg or Entombed Hammer) -- maybe 10% of the time you get a pink item dropped you would instead get one of these elite items.

2) As you mentioned in your post above, perhaps make specific "elite" bosses that spawn every once in a while and exclusively drop elite chests/gear/eggs.

3) Do away with elite chests all together. Just have regular chests (copper, silver & gold) for each campaign, and make the elite items come from the regular chests at a much reduced chance (and same for the elite pink gear & eggs).


I prefer choice #3.

Or you could use choice #1 for the four previous campaigns since you probably don't want to start redesigning those old dungeons to add new "elite" bosses. And then perhaps #2 would be a good idea going forward for future campaigns.

Or you could use some combination of these choices. Like maybe #1 for older campaigns, then use #1 & #2 for future campaigns. So regular bosses will drop elite chests at a reduced rate, but then there will be elite bosses that have a rare chance to spawn, and they will exclusively drop elite chests/gear. You could get creative with this going forward.

But I must stress, be VERY CAREFUL to make sure to keep the elite gear RARE. Because making it easy to run these dungeons (no more "elite" dungeons) has the chance to cause an overflow of elite gear on the market and cause prices to plummet, and we all know where that leads (as was discussed in the other thread on the economy).


PS: I'm gonna have to start charging you guys (STS) for these ideas. Haha!

[Syylent]

There has to be something for hardcore gamers, otherwise the fanbase would dwindle down to casual players who aren't dedicated, aren't spending money, and eventually move on to other games because the lack of a challenge. I love elite maps because they take some teamwork and effort. I would not play this game if it was so simple to accomplish everything. Not to mention, this game should be considered a hybrid, not exclusively "mobile". Players can use a computer (like I do) or a tablet.

I believe he did mention an elite style dungeon which the hardcore games could go hang out in. Seriously though how many times do you run Brackenridge on elite mode? There is probably one or two maps that hardcores would run until their eyes bleed. There is nothing wrong with that at all. You always have to accommodate them. Keep a arena elite dungeon for them or heck even two sound wonderful. It looks as though they realize they need to keep both sides happy.

Still a normal gamer will never progress to that as it stand now.. sans luck.

[Taejo]

This is a great idea. I really do miss the whole aspect of farming for twink gear which was such a big part of Pocket Legends. I spent so much time in PL farming for those rare level 5 & 15 recipes, and the sand caves gear. We would do this with our end game characters. Yes, it was easy, but it provided a nice casual way to farm by yourself or with a buddy without needing a whole party of pro end gamers, and you could loot some of the best gear on rare occasion. Just make sure the best gear drops (or elite chests) are very rare, and the price of those items will not suffer. You don't want players complaining that their twink items were worth 100k and now are selling for 2k because they fall from Jarl like rain.

With the way the elite dungeons have been so far, my first big complaint is that all the gear becomes discontinued. Nobody can ever loot a level 16 flamestrike rod again. I don't think it should be that way. (I'm sure those who have a stash of these discontinued items will disagree for personal reasons LOL)

Anyone who knows me, knows that I always lobby in favor of having very rare gear that's almost impossible to loot and cost a fortune to buy. But I have never been in favor of gear being discontinued. I suppose it's nice to have certain stuff be discontinued like certain holiday gear, and plat stuff like vanities or stuff from plat chests like the founders/forerunner gear. But the regular elite gear from each campaign should still be available to be looted.

So here is my suggestion:

1) Have the original campaign be for level 1-16 as it was originally intended. For this campaign, make it so we can sell the elite chests. And make those elite chests drop level 15/16 elite gear. No need for the level 20/21/25 versions of these items. Yes, I suppose these level 20/21/25 items would be discontinued if this change was made (the level 20/21 versions are already discontinued), but I don't see a problem there.

2) Have the Dead City campaign be for level 20/21 items as was originally intended. Discontinue the "Elite Banded II Chests" and start dropping the "Elite Banded Chests" again. Yes, level 25/30 versions of these items would become discontinued, but this campaign was originally intended for level 20/21.

3) Have the Kraken Isles campaign be for level 25/26 items as was originally intended. Discontinue the "Elite Pirate II Chests" and start dropping the "Elite Pirate Chests" again. Yes, level 30 versions of these items would become discontinued, but this campaign was originally intended for level 25/26.

Now the big question is when to drop Elite Chests instead of regular Chests (and elite pink gear/eggs instead of regular pink gear/eggs). I suppose you have 3 options here:

1) Make it a percentage chance. So maybe 10% of the time you would get a regular chest, you instead get an elite chest. Same goes for "elite" gear and eggs that drop directly from bosses (items like Malison Egg or Entombed Hammer) -- maybe 10% of the time you get a pink item dropped you would instead get one of these elite items.

2) As you mentioned in your post above, perhaps make specific "elite" bosses that spawn every once in a while and exclusively drop elite chests/gear/eggs.

3) Do away with elite chests all together. Just have regular chests (copper, silver & gold) for each campaign, and make the elite items come from the regular chests at a much reduced chance (and same for the elite pink gear & eggs).


I prefer choice #3.

Or you could use choice #1 for the four previous campaigns since you probably don't want to start redesigning those old dungeons to add new "elite" bosses. And then perhaps #2 would be a good idea going forward for future campaigns.

Or you could use some combination of these choices. Like maybe #1 for older campaigns, then use #1 & #2 for future campaigns. So regular bosses will drop elite chests at a reduced rate, but then there will be elite bosses that have a rare chance to spawn, and they will exclusively drop elite chests/gear. You could get creative with this going forward.

But I must stress, be VERY CAREFUL to make sure to keep the elite gear RARE. Because making it easy to run these dungeons (no more "elite" dungeons) has the chance to cause an overflow of elite gear on the market and cause prices to plummet, and we all know where that leads (as was discussed in the other thread on the economy).


PS: I'm gonna have to start charging you guys (STS) for these ideas. Haha!

I agree with keeping the campaigns and gear in tiers, as I mentioned this in my post as well but not as great of detail. However, I still disagree with getting rid of elite maps all together. You can still have L15/16 non-elite and L15/16 elite tier, L20/21 non-elite and L20/21 elite tier, and so forth, making loot tables unique to each grouping. Maybe this is what you were saying? It wasn't crystal clear to me, so I apologize if it was what you were saying.

[Taejo]

I believe he did mention an elite style dungeon which the hardcore games could go hang out in. Seriously though how many times do you run Brackenridge on elite mode? There is probably one or two maps that hardcores would run until their eyes bleed. There is nothing wrong with that at all. You always have to accommodate them. Keep a arena elite dungeon for them or heck even two sound wonderful. It looks as though they realize they need to keep both sides happy.

Still a normal gamer will never progress to that as it stand now.. sans luck.

Yes, very good point. The incentives to run older elite maps is virtually gone, unless I want to farm a specific egg. I think its a complex issue on how do we revive the desire to run older maps as a level-capped player.

[falmear]

I believe he did mention an elite style dungeon which the hardcore games could go hang out in. Seriously though how many times do you run Brackenridge on elite mode? There is probably one or two maps that hardcores would run until their eyes bleed. There is nothing wrong with that at all. You always have to accommodate them. Keep a arena elite dungeon for them or heck even two sound wonderful. It looks as though they realize they need to keep both sides happy.

Still a normal gamer will never progress to that as it stand now.. sans luck.

Yes but one thing that was left out is every "arena" elite dungeon so far as some kind of plat component to it. So everyone who is agreeing to this is also agreeing that they are happy with the fact it requires some kind of plat to play these elite arenas. Right now it doesn't cost you any plat to play elite. But they will either charge you 10 plat to enter like Nordr boss brawl or force you to pay plat to regen like the Gladiator Arena. So I think this is the real motivation.

[JaytB]

I'm all for getting rid of elite maps. Easier, faster and quicker runs would definitely make me farm a whole lot more.

[Energizeric]

One other point I forgot to post in my previous post:

I think if the elite dungeons are eliminated, then the bosses in the regular dungeons should be harder, but let me qualify that....

I think the bosses should have more health and take longer to kill, but they should NOT hit harder. That way it will take a little longer to kill the boss, but you won't get one-hit by the boss which I think is what most players did not like about the elite dungeons. Because the bosses in the non-elite dungeons are really too easy right now in that they can be killed rather quickly.

In PL I am level 76, and if I go do the shadow caves or the sewers (level 50-55 dungeons) I can beat those bosses without dying, but it does take me a couple of minutes to take down the boss even though I am 20-25 levels above those dungeons.

Yet in AL if I go farm Rooks Nest (this is a level 15-16 dungeon, I am level 31) I can take down the boss in 30 seconds. I think he should have more health so it slows me down just a bit. And a level 16 player should not be able to solo that dungeon, but with a normal group of 4 level 16 players should be able to finish the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time. And if a level 13 group tried to do this dungeon, it should be extremely difficult for them to finish without lots of deaths. So I guess the question is finding that sweet spot of how difficult each dungeon should be.

[Swede]

We would probably not touch the 'Normal' dungeons in Brackenridge and Rooks' Nest. We'd let Dead City and Kraken go up to level 31 and add in the Elite loot to them if the enemies are above, level 26 or so. Again, we don't want to make the 'Normal' dungeons harder but yeah possibly put a few more hitpoints on the level 26+ bosses to make the fights last a little longer.

And to say that we're doing this to get more money out of our players is silly. I'm trying to come up with a way to make it more enjoyable to play the game, bring people together to take advantage of the MMO aspect and make new friends, remove the barrier to get fun rewards etc. I haven't looked at the numbers but I don't think the 'hardcore' are spending more plat in the Gladiator Arena than they do in the Nordr Elites.

[Kjalisi]

I totally agree with the motivation for this move... elites are becoming a lot of work getting a good party together, and then making it through long runs. There are a few elites which can be run in a short period of time but realistically since I reached level 31 I have ignored a LARGE part of the content and just played those few short elites.

I really enjoy the arena because its a tactical game and thus way more satisfying to finish... I am of course not a big fan of bloodhammer's one hit and have so far failed to kill him at all never mind in 3 minutes but we have gotten close so its all good


Adding loot to normal maps, and making those normal maps scale up to cap level seems like a great idea. It might be kind of fun to go back to older maps and fight those bosses at cap level and have it be a challenge!

I also like the idea of rarer (but not TOO rare) elite boss spawns which would be difficult but a guaranteed good drop if you beat them. These elite bosses could even each have specific gear that each one dropped which would make it desirable to repeat maps in search of different elite bosses.

If this idea is implemented right I really think it has a lot of potential! Thanks for sharing!

[Energizeric]

We would probably not touch the 'Normal' dungeons in Brackenridge and Rooks' Nest. We'd let Dead City and Kraken go up to level 31 and add in the Elite loot to them if the enemies are above, level 26 or so. Again, we don't want to make the 'Normal' dungeons harder but yeah possibly put a few more hitpoints on the level 26+ bosses to make the fights last a little longer.

Only issue I have with scaling the normal dungeons to level is it makes it impossible to help a lower level player to level faster. For example, just last week my buddy from PL (who has now decided to play AL) was playing with his level 15 mage. I helped him run through a few dead city dungeons and we leveled him up to 17. If you made those dungeons scale up to 31 then I would have not been able to do that since he would have been killed with the higher level mobs. I know this because before doing the dead city dungeons we tried this in the tombs and he died in 2 seconds. Then I realized we needed to do this in a dungeon that does not scale.

If you don't touch the blackenridge and rooks nest dungeons, but then you scale up the dead city and kraken dungeons, then it seems you would have a big gap between rooks nest and dead city where the level of mobs would jump. I think the only way to do this in a way that fixes everything is to keep the normal dead city and kraken dungeons the way they are too and just leave them at the lower level as well. And as I mentioned, maybe start dropping those lower level elite items again.

Players farm not just for items they need, but to earn gold. So if I can farm the dead city for level 20 & 21 ALPs and level 20 & 21 demonlord armors/helms, then I will even though those are twink items and I'm level 31. Because I can sell those items in the auction and make gold which I can use to buy the items I need. I think the majority of players will do this. I know in PL there is tons of twink farming going on by end game players. There are always PUGs in the Shadow Caves, Sand Caves, and in Mount Fang.

As for my suggestion of adding more health to bosses, I meant not for scaled levels but for everyone. Right now you have the regular dungeons and then the elite versions.... I think the elites are way too hard, but the regular dungeons are a bit too easy. I like the mobs being somewhat easy, but the bosses need to be harder. But I don't like this "one hit" nonsense, especially since no class has a revive skill like in PL. So instead I think the solution is to make it harder to beat the boss by giving him more health, essentially making the boss battle take longer, but not result in everyone dying.

I think only the tombs/mines/hauntlet dungeons should scale to level.

[Obi]

I'm voting for that change to happen.

[wowdah]

I may be the only one not liking this idea. Elite makes things a challenge, and I love doing them. If the raid style dungeons were as hard as elite, then maybe.

[wrathstorm]

i love the idea and you guys can focus on better storyline, fresh character design and etc That's my opinion

[falmear]

I may be the only one not liking this idea. Elite makes things a challenge, and I love doing them. If the raid style dungeons were as hard as elite, then maybe.

I'm in agreement with you. I wouldn't like this because I like the challenge of elite maps and figuring out the best way to complete them in a fast time. I don't know what is challenging about the regular maps since once you have end game gear they can be cleared easily. So if this is implemented on these maps it'll be harder to come by elite chests because the drop rates will be reduced. Drop rates already suck in elite now, so how much worse it will be is only a guess. How many runs will you have to make to get an elite golden chest. 50? 100? This is why I say the real motivation is these plat arenas. Because the drop rates will have to be a lot lower for the normal maps so it will force elite players to go to these plat arenas.

[Kaytar]

Sounds like the game will be less than a hassle and more casual. Which indeed is good news.

[Alhuntrazeck]

At first I was COMPLETELY against the idea. But now I'm beginning to wonder.

AL is no longer a casual game IMHO. Elite Valheim took an unbelievable 1 hour (yes, 60 freaking minutes) to do with a decent party, 1 warrior, 2 rogues and a mage. With the removal of Elite Dungeons, AL could become more of the pick up and play game it was intended to be.

But of course there are problems.

There's the loot. Running elite maps used to be rewarding with an elite pink if you were lucky. But if they were done with, what happens? Loot moves to normal dungeons.
Either loot will become much easier to get or the normal dungeons will become harder.

That brings us to the difficulty level. Normal maps never used to drop anything very useful (with the exceptions of Ribbit, Flap Jack and Granite). With the introduction of elite maps, players had a way to access elite gear...for a price. Time. But if the normal maps are as easy as they are currently, gear will become too easy to get (remember farming Ribbit in Rook's Hideout?).

Then like Energizeric said, guiding a lower lvl player through maps will be harder.

I honestly don't know what to think. Elite maps gone will induce a casual factor to the game. Arena-style dungeons will keep the hardcore happy. But little problems like the ones I mentioned might cause roadblocks.

[Bullox]

@ Swede, thats the idea of 2013. I love it. You should get a big Bonus from your Boss

With that great idea you unit the pro players with the non pro players, so we all can play together again. Thats a really big deal!

[colestros]

To me, this seems really really great. Normal folk like,, us could run maps much more easily and if you're lucky, you could get elite chests right? that'd be awesome! Elite dungeons are kinda hard for some cuz of the pot uses and getting one shot killed by bosses and stuff.. this would kinda spread the luck and loot around in the game. Uh, the same guys constantly farm elites and thus always have the top tier items that people so want. Of course this is fine cuz the worked for it. You get what you work for right? but this new change could give normal guys the occasional chance to make the big bucks. Anyways overall this seems awesome I'd personally love to see this implemented. Whoop^

[Alhuntrazeck]

At first I was COMPLETELY against the idea. But now I'm beginning to wonder.

AL is no longer a casual game IMHO. Elite Valheim took an unbelievable 1 hour (yes, 60 freaking minutes) to do with a decent party, 1 warrior, 2 rogues and a mage. With the removal of Elite Dungeons, AL could become more of the pick up and play game it was intended to be.

But of course there are problems.

There's the loot. Running elite maps used to be rewarding with an elite pink if you were lucky. But if they were done with, what happens? Loot moves to normal dungeons.
Either loot will become much easier to get or the normal dungeons will become harder.

That brings us to the difficulty level. Normal maps never used to drop anything very useful (with the exceptions of Ribbit, Flap Jack and Granite). With the introduction of elite maps, players had a way to access elite gear...for a price. Time. But if the normal maps are as easy as they are currently, gear will become too easy to get (remember farming Ribbit in Rook's Hideout?).

Then like Energizeric said, guiding a lower lvl player through maps will be harder.

I honestly don't know what to think. Elite maps gone will induce a casual factor to the game. Arena-style dungeons will keep the hardcore happy. But little problems like the ones I mentioned might cause roadblocks.

I forgot to add something else. In the Arena (if you're removing elite maps) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASEEEE add mythic drops from bosses! That way regular players also have a chance to get mythic, not just the plat players or grand merchants. Ofc the drop rate should be low, about as low as crates'. But with my elixirs and amulet all stacked to 70%, I should have a decent chance at one >

[Obi]

I forgot to add something else. In the Arena (if you're removing elite maps) PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASEEEE add mythic drops from bosses! That way regular players also have a chance to get mythic, not just the plat players or grand merchants. Ofc the drop rate should be low, about as low as crates'. But with my elixirs and amulet all stacked to 70%, I should have a decent chance at one >

but.. I think you can get them already from the elite gold chest that are dropped there.. yes?