Feedback Request: No more Elite Dungeons

[Energizeric]

I'm a very hardcore player and I want to see this happen. But I also want them to make sure that drop rates of elite gear does not increase as a result of this. They can make sure of this by adjusting drop rates. They also need to monitor these changes very carefully in the first couple of days after the update, and if too much elite gear is dropping they need to adjust the drop rate downwards.

The end result of this should NOT be that casual players have an easier chance to get good gear. The result of this should be that average "middle class" players spend more time farming and enjoying the game, instead of just standing around in towns doing nothing and/or begging. But it still should not be easy to acquire the best gear. Otherwise, as was posted above, the game will no longer present a challenge to the hardcore players.

[Valsacar]

If this goes through, I think they should also look at gear in general. Pink shouldn't be the minimum gear to wear, at least epic should be viable. Stats on new items should be revamped, and rarity of items balanced to keep the pinks (and above) rare enough that they are a target for middle class, like mythic and arcane are the target for hardcore players.

I'd like to see elite purples have stats just above normal pinks. Then elite pinks, then mythics, and finally arcane. Rarity should match.

Right now the game is, ignore all normal items, ignore all elites but pink. If they make this change to remove elite dungeons, it gives a chance to fix that.

[abihakim]

Yes but dont make it as hard as shuyal
And revive should be free.

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[falmear]

If we go straight to just normal content, we could tweak things like damage output from enemies in normal and leave their health as is. The idea of more mobs swarming in numbers and doing more damage is a potential solution, as this would require a tank to really take that damage. Making more enemies "glass cannons" would result in some potentially threatening scenarios for solo players and overzealous groups. A good tank will always be a good tank, and will always be appreciated regardless of the zone. We want to continue to provide a reason for tanks to be relevant and fun to play.

Sorry but I have to disagree. Because we already have scenarios like this and warriors are not needed or wanted. Rogues can do some very high crit damage and what does it matter if mob do some very high damage, the mobs will be dead before they can do any serious damage. And as a mage, I know with my skills I can stop or slow any swarm. And if I cycle my skills right, I don't care how high the damage is, if the health is normal. What makes elite hard is the mobs have a lot of health or armor and hit hard. So what you are talking about is good for a party of rogues & mages (3/1 or 2/2). Tanks need not apply.

A valid point. Drop rates would need to be reduced, but it is worth reminding everyone that these would be for high end dungeon runs only. Level 15's won't see elite chests most likely, as they only contain high level gear. With the reduction of drops, we can balance that out with things like the random elite bosses that have a chance at nice loot. Perhaps they drop two pieces of loot? One will always be a copper, silver, or gold elite chest and the other will be a pink? Depends on how rare the boss is, and this is just an example of the kinds of things we can tweak to make certain things more enticing or relevant for players looking for that risk reward.

We're very aware of this sort of problem, and we will likely devise something to keep it feeling "natural" and not punishing to the players. Overall this is a big change, and some related systems would also have to change to keep the loot machine moving along smoothly.

We can already estimate how many runs its going to take. There are 2 quests. One quest is you kill 20 elite nordr bosses and you get an elite golden warchest. The other quest is you kill 40 normal nordr bosses and you get an elite silver warchest. So we can see to get a lesser elite chest you have to kill 2x more normal bosses. Regardless of all of the complaining Elite Oltgar can be completed in about 10 mins (on average), so to do 20 runs takes about 3 hours 20 mins. So we know we'd have to do more then 40 runs before getting an elite golden chest probably in the neighborhood of 80 runs. And I have done more then 20 runs and have not gotten an elite golden warchest (except from the quest). Now you consider how much more people play normal maps vs elite maps so now you have to reduce drop rates even lower to compensate. And consider the fact people on normal maps are playing with lesser equipment then elites. So often I have helped people kill bosses on normal maps so they can get to the next map, they try to clear these maps without the proper gear. And everyone else has left the map. Why do you think this will be any better when adding an elite boss to a normal map?

[Taejo]

If this goes through, I think they should also look at gear in general. Pink shouldn't be the minimum gear to wear, at least epic should be viable. Stats on new items should be revamped, and rarity of items balanced to keep the pinks (and above) rare enough that they are a target for middle class, like mythic and arcane are the target for hardcore players.

I'd like to see elite purples have stats just above normal pinks. Then elite pinks, then mythics, and finally arcane. Rarity should match.

Right now the game is, ignore all normal items, ignore all elites but pink. If they make this change to remove elite dungeons, it gives a chance to fix that.

This is a very good point. Coming from a background of MMORPGs such as UO, EQ, WoW... I was very confused when I started playing STS's "Legends" series to see that purples (which drop all the time) are considered "epic", yet don't even come close to measuring up with some legendary items. The word epic shouldn't be used so loosely! Not to mention that "rare" items are not rare at all - may as well call them "common" and rename whites to "junk". Sorry, I am going off on a completely unrelated tangent here.

I like Valsacar's idea of fine-tuning epics to scale up to their name and the new non-elite ideas being thrown on the table.

[Rare]

. Regardless of all of the complaining Elite Oltgar can be completed in about 10 mins (on average),

That's only true if you have a decent party. If you have a decent party then there is no problem to begin with. The problem is pugs. Rarely can you find a pig that can complete oltgar that fast. Not to mention that is one of six maps.

Elite is not uber difficult with a good party.

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[Spymans]

go for it,

[ShadowGunX]

i like elite maps bt i hate it coz d drops i get r not worth d time spent on running one elite map.
i like gladiator arena. it is like plasma pyramid in pl.

[Alrisaia]

A crazy idea but I've been thinking about it for a while now. I'd like to either remove the current Elite Dungeons, or at the very least stop making new ones for the future expansions. There would still be Elite dungeons but more in the style of the Gladiator Arena and 'raid' style dungeons, rather than copies of the 'Normal' dungeons.

Swede, you guys are doing a fantastic job with this game. I am so addicted and am having so much fun playing. I can’t believe I am playing this game on my phone! Lol… Just to date me – I used to use a beeper for work…

I don’t believe this is a good idea. And I’ll address each point below:

But what about the loot?!
The Elite Warchests, bronze, silver and gold, would all be moved to the 'Normal' dungeons. They would have a lower chance to drop in the 'Normal' dungeons than they currently do in the Elite dungeons, since those can be cleared much faster.

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I don’t particularly like farming ‘normal’ dungeons because I load a map every minute or so. Thus, organizing with other players and waiting on them to catchup to the boss kill is somewhat annoying… not to mention the fact that while elite loot might drop there – the trash ‘non-elite’ stuff will be mixed in…

I don’t believe farming a ‘normal’ boss should have the benefits of an Elite kill… I can almost one shot kill normal Bael. 5k is my highest crit on him, thus if Malison were to drop from ‘Normal’ bael… Malison would no longer be such an ‘elite’ pet that requires a remote some skill to obtain and a small amount of coordination with a group.

That being said – I run Elite maps for the challenge and to help my guild get better so they can run with PUGS. I don’t run Elites for the loot believe it or not since I buy the stuff I want and I make my gold by merching for the most part. I open all the chests I get from looting just for the heck of it and I buy and sell ELITE loot from other farmers for profit. Changing normal map loot tables to include elite loot might greatly harm the economy. Since Elite loot would now be attainable by non-elite capable people (not that that’s a BAD thing, but it would imbalance supply / demand)…

In addition, the Gladiator Arena and any future content like that, would remain at Elite difficulty and keep its much higher drop rate of Elite loot.

I don’t like the Arena. I don’t find it challenging and I choose not to run it, although I have. I understand its purpose and I believe it has its place in the game, I just would hate to see ALL the elite content to be like this… Part of the fun of this game is the simple challenge of GETTING TO THE BOSS killing trash mobs in elite is exciting and challenging and requires teamwork, strategy, and is in some ways harder than the boss. I believe removing them from the dungeons and forming more ‘arena’ like maps would lessen the need for such teamwork, and thus, cause people to form fewer relationships with other players – and relationships with other players is typically what keeps players coming back to MMOs… at least it’s a big part of it.

But why?!
Designers could stop focusing on maintaining the Elite dungeons, which is quite a time sink, leaving us more time for other content. I've always wanted to do more rare encounters in our dungeons so the 10'th time you play through Oltgar Keep, it all of a sudden has an extra boss with rare loot. Maybe even put rare Elite bosses in 'Normal' dungeons, letting you tell your friends/guild to come help you, if you find one.

OK… so – unless the ‘normal’ content were to become more challenging, I believe it’s worth your designer’s time to maintain and create Elite dungeons. I do however LIKE the idea of having additional Random encounters in the dungeons. And I believe that if you did move Elite gear to a normal map it would have to be guarded by an Elite boss that spawns randomly like you suggest here.

You could now solo and still have a chance at the very best loot in the game

I am playing this game which is an MMO because it’s an MMO. If I wanted to solo, I would find a game that I didn’t have to use up my data from my cellphone carrier with. Soloing in an MMO is a sort of silly concept. While I do it from time to time, just because – I would not think that in an MMO I could solo and get the VERY BEST LOOT in the game.

Players would be more consolidated, so you'd have more full groups playing together, making new friends. In 'Normal' dungeons, they're not locked once you start killing mobs, so new players can come in and fill spots.

I believe unlocking Elite dungeons is a better idea. Due to disconnects etc… PUGGING elites is a great way to make friends – and again, this is an MMO.

Thoughts and feedback/suggestions welcome!

I’m sorry to be a downer here – but after seeing all the positive feedback I had to add my two cents. I believe this game would lose a great deal of its appeal if there was no longer challenging content, farming an Elite dungeon *should* require a team of good players, coordination, strategy, and skill. While there could be many improvements logistically to forming up such a team, the requirement should remain.


Anyway - my comments are hopefully heard.

[Juicymango]

If you want to remove elite maps and put elite Arenas there you should make it more balanced.
The problem with the shuyal arena is that only people with platinum can Do it-.-
This is a bit stinky in my opinion... Not payer player should be able to Do it as the dungeons as well...
The thing with the platinum is only a chance for spacetime to make money (good business for you but not funny for us players) if you continue that way AL becomes a pure pay-to-win game...
Thats my Personal opinion hope you understand that
If im wrong correct me pls
Thx

[falmear]

If this goes through, we should get free respec. Because you are invalidating a number of builds. For elite I feel like I need certain skills because they are more defensive. But on normal maps, I don't need these skills even if you were to boost the damage output of the mobs. The mobs die faster, so certain skills are not as useful. And I'd like to drop these skills and use more offensive skills. I don't feel its right to pay to respec because you eliminated elite.

[Kaytar]

Wonder if they made a decision on this already. Im kinda looking forward to these changes if brought in.

[Energizeric]

All I can say to sum my thoughts up is that the farming system in Pocket Legends was far more fun. The only thing that ruined it there was the 100% luck elixirs and the 3x combo elixirs that everyone started to run with. In AL we have the chests/crates to counter the luck elixirs, so you can't reroll a mythic or arcane item, and the combo elixirs only boost your stats slightly (15-25%).

So if you were to move the AL farming system to be closer to the PL farming system in any way possible, I think that would be a good thing. I like being able to farm lower levels for twink PvP items, I like being able to join PUGs for regular end game farming, and I like not dying multiple times in every run where it is possible for me to get an elite item. The end result of AL farming is I just don't do it. I do all the maps for the achievements, and then just PvP for the most part. I miss doing PvE, but don't find it fun in the current system.

[Swede]

Still trying to figure out what to do. Thanks for all the feedback everyone, it's invaluable.

[Metztli]

[*]You could now solo and still have a chance at the very best loot in the game

*thinks about this* I'm not sure this is a good reason at all -- how many people regularly solo the higher level normal maps? I have one warrior friend who soloed just about everything until he hit a wall with the Oltgar Keep boss - spent a good hour dying repeatedly and using pots and the boss reset. I think back about my trying to solo Kraken Isles a level cap back and getting instantly killed by the mob of gunners.

A better argument for "elite" level loot is that it would motivate players to actually take on the normal bosses instead of leaving once clearing the map of additionals.

I still haven't totally wrapped my head around this idea of Arena style elite maps only. I guess it could be okay.

[keikali]

A good idea to touch upon is in order to spawn a specific "Boss" that drops elite loot in a normal map. They must CLEAR the whole map, every single given mob.

[SkullCrusher]

No. Just No. I've been enjoying Elites so much because of their difficulty. Don't you guys see that the economy is already un-stable enough? Now you want to add elites drops to normal maps for everyone to farm? This will create such an un-stable economy, aren't we trying to make it more stable? NO.

[Energizeric]

No. Just No. I've been enjoying Elites so much because of their difficulty. Don't you guys see that the economy is already un-stable enough? Now you want to add elites drops to normal maps for everyone to farm? This will create such an un-stable economy, aren't we trying to make it more stable? NO.

STS can make sure the drop rate stays consistent by lowering or raising the drop rate accordingly. They can change the parameters of the dungeons without altering the number of drops. The purpose here is to make farming more fun and possible for more players, not to increase the number of elite items dropping.

[SkullCrusher]

STS can make sure the drop rate stays consistent by lowering or raising the drop rate accordingly. They can change the parameters of the dungeons without altering the number of drops. The purpose here is to make farming more fun and possible for more players, not to increase the number of elite items dropping.

Unless they make normal dungeons MUCH harder for end-game players, there will be much more people farming resulting in more drops. More drops = prices also drop. Shuyal is another Platinum drainage since if you die and want to keep going you must buy a platinum revive. I know many more end-game players just don't like the arena but enjoy Elites. Meh, just my opinion, maybe you disagree with me Energizeric but that's fine with me, we all have our own opinions.

EDIT:

I'm a very hardcore player and I want to see this happen. But I also want them to make sure that drop rates of elite gear does not increase as a result of this. They can make sure of this by adjusting drop rates. They also need to monitor these changes very carefully in the first couple of days after the update, and if too much elite gear is dropping they need to adjust the drop rate downwards.

The end result of this should NOT be that casual players have an easier chance to get good gear. The result of this should be that average "middle class" players spend more time farming and enjoying the game, instead of just standing around in towns doing nothing and/or begging. But it still should not be easy to acquire the best gear. Otherwise, as was posted above, the game will no longer present a challenge to the hardcore players.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying Energ, as long as prices of the Elite drops don't drop insanely low like locked crate items did, then I would say this is an amazing idea.
Looks like we do agree with each other after all don't we Energ? Lol xD.

[Energizeric]

Yes agreed. More drops does not have to mean more elite items dropping. Maybe elite items are very rare drops and most items dropping would be the ones that currently drop in the non elite dungeons. Then on very rare occasion an elite chest or elite pink will drop.

All those who played PL remember dragon farming. It was pretty easy once we were at higher level. But that didn't mean tons of dragon items were dropping. Those were very rare drops and some players farmed mount fang for months without ever seeing one drop. You could have an arcane item that drops from a certain boss be super rare like that. And maybe no mythics drop from the same boss, so you can't reroll the arcane item. That's how mount fang originally was. No purples in the drop table so you couldn't reroll a dragon item. Then when they added purples it ruined it as everyone started getting rerolled dragon items and the price of those items collapsed.

I hope STS has leaned from their mistakes in this regard.