Feedback Request: No more Elite Dungeons

[ShadowGunX]

elite map should go away as it doesn't pay to how mch time wasted nd money on pets nd potions.
normal map mobs drops nothing bt its ok even also elite map mobs too like normal mobs drops nothing to cost even to buy pots. i only find myself wasting money on pots md on boss it is pure luck to get even warchest.

so elite map should go. it is only frustating poor ppl. elite maps shouldnt go if and only if elite boss should drop only elite warchest nd elite pinks. i only get rares nd epics only. got 4 warchest (no golden).

[Rare]

Do we have any hard statistics to back up this claim everyone is making that no one runs elite maps? I find that hard to believe as fact. Personally, in my guild composed of me and my best in-game friend, we run elite maps all day every day and the payoffs are wonderful. Together we've completely geared up 3 toons in full mythic. You just have to know where and how to farm - there is a strategy to it whether or not you believe so.

You don't need statistics. Its easy enough to deduce it from the state of playing.

People ARE running elite. But I can tell you the specific maps that they are running more than any other. By far.

1. Elite Rook's Nest
2. Elite Oltgar Keep
3. Elite Southern Seas
4. Elite Mage Cave (I can never remember what its called)

Try joining a pug, and see how long it takes to get a full group. I know you say you don't do it, but honestly, its the foundation. Especially for newer players. How else you are going to meet people and tell if their play styles are good for you? Going to set up a date and time to do some runs with 3 other people? No. PUGs are how I made the vast majority of my friends in PL. And even in AL during the earlier seasons when people still pugged a lot.

Oh, and the mob scaling, your claim is a little misleading. The difficulty of the mobs do not scale nearly as much with the number of players as it does with level. I do, though, think the sweet spot is 3 players. Less or more than that, and the completion time seems to go up. However, maybe that's because anytime I run elite in a three person party, the other two are very experienced.

In any case, its evident that only a fraction of the population is running elite. If you were around for seasons 1 and 2 then you can see the difference. Even from season 3. Most people now are farming crates and standing in town trying to buy and sell stuff. I have a pretty large friend list I think. When I look down it, only a small percentage are actually in elite. Most are in PVP or in town/guildhall.

[Alrisaia]

elite map should go away as it doesn't pay to how mch time wasted nd money on pets nd potions.

Elite Maps should go away because you’re wasting time, pots, and gold on pets? Why are you doing that?
Elite Runs are all about Risk and Reward.
The Risk: You LOSE gold and you LOSE time (sounds like it’s working right)
The Reward: You GAIN gold and GAIN time. (better gear = faster runs)
In other MMOs the risks were like XP loss when you die – or Corpse Runs (OMG annoying)… if the only risk you have for running elites is losing some gold for pots and wasting time… you’re in good shape mate. I personally belive the Risk Reward Ratio for Elites is right on, and our core group farms the harder elite maps because we are willing to take on the risks for the possibility of lucrative rewards.

normal map mobs drops nothing bt its ok even also elite map mobs too like normal mobs drops nothing to cost even to buy pots. i only find myself wasting money on pots md on boss it is pure luck to get even warchest.

Of course it’s pure luck. Role Playing Games have relied on Luck for Loot since their origination in the 1970s as pencil and paper games using dice. Buy a luck lixer if you use plat to help your odds, OR… get your group together BEFORE getting Klaas. If you get a luck lixer go somewhere you can complete fast like South Seas or Elite Forest… both of those are 5 – 6 minute runs. 7 tops for SS… So, with Klaas’ 30 minute luck lixer you could do 5 Kettle runs or 4 or 5 South Seas runs… the former of which costs almost nothing in POTs, the latter of which is a more advanced run but doable in 7 minutes with a decent group of experienced players with decent gear (champions or bonechill).

You could also run Arcane Grounds – roughly 9 minutes with a good group and TWO chances for elite gear (two bosses), so you get two rolls for chests and that translates into 4.5 minutes / run.

so elite map should go. it is only frustating poor ppl. elite maps shouldnt go if and only if elite boss should drop only elite warchest nd elite pinks. i only get rares nd epics only. got 4 warchest (no golden).

[/quote]
If bosses dropped Elite Warchests and Elite Pinks every time those items would lose their value completely if they dropped every time. Look what happened when Elite Bael bug happened on the day of his release… Noble Armor (previously 400k or so) dropped to 100k overnight… Just saying the Risk / Reward ratio is something that’s different for everyone.

THEN – Mythic Gear would lose value because supply would increase substantially… The chain reaction to this would be astronomical in proportion and I can’t believe I even responded to this part because I KNOW it’s not going to happen.



Running Elites is something of an art that my guild has been working on perfecting. We are efficient, we have fun, and we don’t all have Mythic Gear. In fact most of the guild is made up of average players who want to run elite and couldn’t get groups in the larger guilds. We love running challenging maps and finding new ways to complete them. We love bringing Elite noobs with us and helping them understand the elite strategies which are completely different than normal map strategies of just free for all killing – you actually have to work together as a cohesive group to be effective…

[Taejo]

You don't need statistics. Its easy enough to deduce it from the state of playing.

People ARE running elite. But I can tell you the specific maps that they are running more than any other. By far.

1. Elite Rook's Nest
2. Elite Oltgar Keep
3. Elite Southern Seas
4. Elite Mage Cave (I can never remember what its called)

Try joining a pug, and see how long it takes to get a full group. I know you say you don't do it, but honestly, its the foundation. Especially for newer players. How else you are going to meet people and tell if their play styles are good for you? Going to set up a date and time to do some runs with 3 other people? No. PUGs are how I made the vast majority of my friends in PL. And even in AL during the earlier seasons when people still pugged a lot.

Oh, and the mob scaling, your claim is a little misleading. The difficulty of the mobs do not scale nearly as much with the number of players as it does with level. I do, though, think the sweet spot is 3 players. Less or more than that, and the completion time seems to go up. However, maybe that's because anytime I run elite in a three person party, the other two are very experienced.

In any case, its evident that only a fraction of the population is running elite. If you were around for seasons 1 and 2 then you can see the difference. Even from season 3. Most people now are farming crates and standing in town trying to buy and sell stuff. I have a pretty large friend list I think. When I look down it, only a small percentage are actually in elite. Most are in PVP or in town/guildhall.

There are tens of thousands of players in AL. Your argument about the "fraction of the population" is pure speculation which is derived from your immediate experience and observations of the game (based on who you know and what you do with your time). There's simply no way that you, Aedenos, can speak such a statistic without some insider hard data. But hey, if a dev pops on here and proves me wrong - then I'll gladly shut my yap, apologize, and we'll move on! But until then, please don't condescendingly generalize to me how this game is played.

Everyone experiences this game differently, having different motives for what they want to accomplish. For me, I immediately searched for a guild. In my gaming experience over the years, I learned that taking the guild route is more of a guarantee to enjoy the end-game content in it's entirety as opposed to PUGing it. For others, however, they enjoy PUGs and appreciate the casualness of the game (and perhaps would rather PvP full-time than run end-game content). I appreciate that side of the argument and don't want to see those players quit the game because of this issue. The more reasonable generalization to make is that AL's fan base likes the diversity of the game's content and choose to play AL over other games because of this. I have played PL, SL, and DL on top of currently playing AL. Quite honestly, I think the elite maps idea is a great addition for people who want to go above and beyond casual gaming.

We're still standing here with this problem of elite maps and the dilemma of how to keep things fair for both sides. STS has to make changes that don't completely take away from one or the other. Don't get me wrong - I am not in favor of this game creating an obligation for players to join big guilds. I think PUGs can survive elite maps just fine when there is a constant flow of instances being run on a daily basis - just like in seasons 1 and 2. However, the underlying problem is there are virtually no incentives to run elite maps (for PUGs or guilds) aside from the shear enjoyment of a challenge. I agree with you and Energizeric: crates are an issue. I think they are destroying this game, especially now that you can pop open 100 or so, get almost all of your plat back (to open more) and end up with a handful of mythics. Crates partially eliminate the reasons for running elite maps and destroy the economy. For the purposes of keeping this thread on track, however, let's not get into the detailed discussion of why crates are good or bad.

So to redirect my response to my main point: please add more incentives to run elite maps and kill trash mobs along the way - rather than this ridiculous method we all use of killing the first 20 and running to the end. Some ideas that have been brought up in this thread:

1. Slightly scale elite trash mobs down a bit to make them less time consuming and more desireable to kill (keep reading..)
2. Add unique drops (pinks, eggs) to trash mobs with a reasonable drop rate
3. Add rare mini bosses to some maps to support 1 and 2
4. Augment the existing loot table system of certain bosses dropping certain legendary items (ex: Man Eater drops Noble helms, Grimnr drops Noble chest pieces) to make the other maps desireable
5. Let us run older maps to farm twink gear that will sell

Lastly, this isn't PL, SL or DL. Even though I, too, am guilty of arguing in the past that AL should carry forward some of those games' mechanics, I think its safe to say that its a dead horse. They have expressed countless times that they want each game to be unique and only share some of the basic features of the series. So let's take those arguments off the table for this thread.

[Alrisaia]

There are tens of thousands of players in AL. Your argument about the "fraction of the population" is pure speculation which is derived from your immediate experience and observations of the game (based on who you know and what you do with your time). There's simply no way that you, Aedenos, can speak such a statistic without some insider hard data. But hey, if a dev pops on here and proves me wrong - then I'll gladly shut my yap, apologize, and we'll move on! But until then, please don't condescendingly generalize to me how this game is played.

While I don’t agree with your tone, I do agree with you Taejo – there’s just no way to speculate and be accurate about this…

Everyone experiences this game differently, having different motives for what they want to accomplish. For me, I immediately searched for a guild. In my gaming experience over the years, I learned that taking the guild route is more of a guarantee to enjoy the end-game content in it's entirety as opposed to PUGing it. For others, however, they enjoy PUGs and appreciate the casualness of the game (and perhaps would rather PvP full-time than run end-game content). I appreciate that side of the argument and don't want to see those players quit the game because of this issue. The more reasonable generalization to make is that AL's fan base likes the diversity of the game's content and choose to play AL over other games because of this. I have played PL, SL, and DL on top of currently playing AL. Quite honestly, I think the elite maps idea is a great addition for people who want to go above and beyond casual gaming.

I’m with you on the guild Taejo, although the way I went about this was to level with pugs and when I capped I finally sought out a guild. I ended up in Arcane Fellowship and the rest is history…

We're still standing here with this problem of elite maps and the dilemma of how to keep things fair for both sides. STS has to make changes that don't completely take away from one or the other. Don't get me wrong - I am not in favor of this game creating an obligation for players to join big guilds. I think PUGs can survive elite maps just fine when there is a constant flow of instances being run on a daily basis - just like in seasons 1 and 2. However, the underlying problem is there are

Most Important Point You Made:

virtually no incentives to run elite maps (for PUGs or guilds) aside from the shear enjoyment of a challenge. I agree with you and Energizeric: crates are an issue. I think they are destroying this game, especially now that you can pop open 100 or so, get almost all of your plat back (to open more) and end up with a handful of mythics. Crates partially eliminate the reasons for running elite maps and destroy the economy. For the purposes of keeping this thread on track, however, let's not get into the detailed discussion of why crates are good or bad.

The Risk:Reward ratio is a little off… I’m not saying the Drop Rate is off, I’m saying the items we loot are just… meh… There should definitely be risks associated with running Elites. Since the ONLY risk we as players in AL can take is losing gold, or losing time: they’ve done a bang up job in making the risk for elites right on… The problem is that when we DO get that reward – the stats for the items we loot are barely better than the trash pinks coming from crates, which make sense since they want everyone to be able to enjoy the game – especially the ones paying – Don’t get me wrong, the items coming from crates have to be worthwhile or people wouldn’t be opening them and ultimately that’s got to be what’s paying the bills. The problem is that there has to be a clear distinction between the items from crates and the ones from elites – otherwise we are back to

… virtually no incentives to run elite maps …

So to redirect my response to my main point: please add more incentives to run elite maps and kill trash mobs along the way - rather than this ridiculous method we all use of killing the first 20 and running to the end. Some ideas that have been brought up in this thread:

Agreed - although part of the strategy of elites is being able to run through certain parts of the map to get to the boss without getting dead.

1. Slightly scale elite trash mobs down a bit to make them less time consuming and more desireable to kill (keep reading..)
2. Add unique drops (pinks, eggs) to trash mobs with a reasonable drop rate
3. Add rare mini bosses to some maps to support 1 and 2
4. Augment the existing loot table system of certain bosses dropping certain legendary items (ex: Man Eater drops Noble helms, Grimnr drops Noble chest pieces) to make the other maps desireable
5. Let us run older maps to farm twink gear that will sell

1. I don’t think elite trash mobs should be scaled down. Make them more desireable to kill – yes, less difficult? No… but that’s my opinion. I would be worried that the runs would turn into trash mob kill fests and forget the boss... It should still take a considerable amount of time to clear a whole elite map. When I say considerable I mean 20 minutes for a difficult map and 5 for an easier one.
2. Yes! Vixen is a good example of this and has held value rather well.
3. Awesome idea, Mini bosses should spawn and join the fight on top of the trash mobs to make it more fun and challenging, but should have ultra cool loot. They should be rare, but not Bael II rare…  Maybe 1 in 20 runs or so.
4. I’m not quite sure I understand your point here…
5. Agreed – the loot should stay scaled with whatever update / level cap it came with and it should be a random cap – 5 to determine it’s level. Ie: loot from Kraken Isles should be level 21 – 26… from Dead City should be Lv 16 – 21. Also, Allow lower levels into Elite. Right now, you can be lv 26+ to join Elite Forest – Elite Bael but you have to ‘join’ a lv 30+ I’m not sure if this is a bug or not, but I think allowing people to get a taste of Elite isn’t a bad thing.

Lastly, this isn't PL, SL or DL. Even though I, too, am guilty of arguing in the past that AL should carry forward some of those games' mechanics, I think its safe to say that its a dead horse. They have expressed countless times that they want each game to be unique and only share some of the basic features of the series. So let's take those arguments off the table for this thread.

[/quote]
I never played any of these games, nor do I plan to. I have time for only one…

[Ebezaanec]

My idea is to implement different elite maps. Instead of time-consuming dungeons where you just dash to the end, the maps would resemble the Shuyal Arena and Skeleton Medley (bard quest) dungeon slighty.

The arena would be an empty square that would spawn a certain amount of enemies (they can be elite/regular mobs) and after that amount is defeated, the elite boss will spawn in the middle of the dungeon.

EX: Rook's Nest Arena- After 300 enemies are killed, Elite Bael will spawn.
EX: Skull Cove Arena- after 500 enemies are killed, Elite Bloodhammer will spawn.

The dungeon wouldn't require a lot of time to traverse, since the dungeon is pretty much a closed system. I would also assume it wouldn't take too much time to design. I got this idea after playing PL's Vyxnaar dungeon for some time.

[ShadowGunX]

My idea is to implement different elite maps. Instead of time-consuming dungeons where you just dash to the end, the maps would resemble the Shuyal Arena and Skeleton Medley (bard quest) dungeon slighty.

The arena would be an empty square that would spawn a certain amount of enemies (they can be elite/regular mobs) and after that amount is defeated, the elite boss will spawn in the middle of the dungeon.

EX: Rook's Nest Arena- After 300 enemies are killed, Elite Bael will spawn.
EX: Skull Cove Arena- after 500 enemies are killed, Elite Bloodhammer will spawn.

The dungeon wouldn't require a lot of time to traverse, since the dungeon is pretty much a closed system. I would also assume it wouldn't take too much time to design. I got this idea after playing PL's Vyxnaar dungeon for some time.

i agree to ur idea. +1 dude
it also resembles to spawn of ulfang nd ubermans.

[ShadowGunX]

Elite Maps should go away because you’re wasting time, pots, and gold on pets? Why are you doing that?
Elite Runs are all about Risk and Reward.
The Risk: You LOSE gold and you LOSE time (sounds like it’s working right)
The Reward: You GAIN gold and GAIN time. (better gear = faster runs)
In other MMOs the risks were like XP loss when you die – or Corpse Runs (OMG annoying)… if the only risk you have for running elites is losing some gold for pots and wasting time… you’re in good shape mate. I personally belive the Risk Reward Ratio for Elites is right on, and our core group farms the harder elite maps because we are willing to take on the risks for the possibility of lucrative rewards.


Of course it’s pure luck. Role Playing Games uhave relied on Luck for Loot since their origination in the 1970s as pencil and papergames using dice. Buy a luck lixer if you use plat to help your odds, OR… get your group together BEFORE getting Klaas. If you get a luck lixer go somewhere you can complete fast like South Seas or Elite Forest… both of those are 5 – 6 minute runs. 7 tops for SS… So, with Klaas’ 30 minute luck lixer you could do 5 Kettle runs or 4 or 5 South Seas runs… the former of which costs almost nothing in POTs, the latter of which is a more advanced run but doable in 7 minutes with a decent group of experienced players with decent gear (champions or bonechill).

You could also run Arcane Grounds – roughly 9 minutes with a good group and TWO chances for elite gear (two bosses), so you get two rolls for chests and that translates into 4.5 minutes / run.

If bosses dropped Elite Warchests and Elite Pinks every time those items would lose their value completely if they dropped every time. Look what happened when Elite Bael bug happened on the day of his release… Noble Armor (previously 400k or so) dropped to 100k overnight… Just saying the Risk / Reward ratio is something that’s different for everyone.

THEN – Mythic Gear would lose value because supply would increase substantially… The chain reaction to this would be astronomical in proportion and I can’t believe I even responded to this part because I KNOW it’s not going to happen.



Running Elites is something of an art that my guild has been working on perfecting. We are efficient, we have fun, and we don’t all have Mythic Gear. In fact most of the guild is made up of average players who want to run elite and couldn’t get groups in the larger guilds. We love running challenging maps and finding new ways to complete them. We love bringing Elite noobs with us and helping them understand the elite strategies which are completely different than normal map strategies of just free for all killing – you actually have to work together as a cohesive group to be effective…[/QUOTE]

kettles drop only in elite rook nest nd brackenbridge brackenbrige. got 4 so far .
i dnt hav credit card neither google card retailers to buy plats.
after seeing ur elite running capabilities it made me think to join ur guild.
d reason i dnt do mch elites coz of unstable ping (specially in elite maps, idk y) nd when dc i cant enter again nd crap gears too lol (m poor, u c i dnt hav credit card to buy plats)

[Rare]

There are tens of thousands of players in AL. Your argument about the "fraction of the population" is pure speculation which is derived from your immediate experience and observations of the game (based on who you know and what you do with your time). There's simply no way that you, Aedenos, can speak such a statistic without some insider hard data. But hey, if a dev pops on here and proves me wrong - then I'll gladly shut my yap, apologize, and we'll move on! But until then, please don't condescendingly generalize to me how this game is played.

In case you didn't know, most EVERYTHING about this game is based on people's experience. Very little is provided in terms of hard data (for example, your claim that 10s of thousands of people play this game. Where is that data coming from?). There is also no data to claim otherwise. Just because you happen to have a group of friends that play very frequently and can always create parties and run all day, I assure you, you are the exception and not the rule. The fact that there are 10s of thousands of players playing AL only strengthens my assumption. The larger the number of players, the less likely it is that EVERYONE is playing in parties and more likely that people are running in PUGs.

Sorry, numbers aren't all that are needed. A little common sense is also useful coming to these conclusions. (Edit: I am not implying you do not have common sense). You are right. There is no hard data to support these claims. But it isn't necessary. PUGs are a perfect medium for gauging this. Its plain to see. These runs are mostly empty save the maps I listed above.

Guild or no guild, its inconsequential. I've been part of medium, very large, and small guilds. It is always the same story. In a mobile game, when you have limited time, its difficult to spend 20 minutes to put together a party to do 1 or 2 runs (anywhere from 8-30 minutes each depending on the map). Those folks that can spend 5-10 hours a day playing, they are not concerned with this.

There was no condescension in my comments. I'm sorry you took it as such. I do, however, feel that it is common sense. And I do feel like some things, in the absence of "hard data", can be easily generalized based on experience.

Also, while I do agree with most of the rest of your post, I must point out. In the first paragraph you went on about how I can't make any condescending generalizations. Then you spent the rest of the post talking about how bad elites are and why people don't want to run them.

[Taejo]

Not sure how I forgot to mention this, but another idea that was brought up in this thread:

6. Make is so timed runs are optional (via the world map, but clicking a check box or something). With this implementation, players could then run elite maps and have people join/leave as they please. This would also compliment the desire for players to run PUGs, I think.

[Rare]

Not sure how I forgot to mention this, but another idea that was brought up in this thread:

6. Make is so timed runs are optional (via the world map, but clicking a check box or something). With this implementation, players could then run elite maps and have people join/leave as they please. This would also compliment the desire for players to run PUGs, I think.

Very true.

[Taejo]

1. I don’t think elite trash mobs should be scaled down. Make them more desireable to kill – yes, less difficult? No… but that’s my opinion. I would be worried that the runs would turn into trash mob kill fests and forget the boss... It should still take a considerable amount of time to clear a whole elite map. When I say considerable I mean 20 minutes for a difficult map and 5 for an easier one.
2. Yes! Vixen is a good example of this and has held value rather well.
3. Awesome idea, Mini bosses should spawn and join the fight on top of the trash mobs to make it more fun and challenging, but should have ultra cool loot. They should be rare, but not Bael II rare…  Maybe 1 in 20 runs or so.
4. I’m not quite sure I understand your point here…
5. Agreed – the loot should stay scaled with whatever update / level cap it came with and it should be a random cap – 5 to determine it’s level. Ie: loot from Kraken Isles should be level 21 – 26… from Dead City should be Lv 16 – 21. Also, Allow lower levels into Elite. Right now, you can be lv 26+ to join Elite Forest – Elite Bael but you have to ‘join’ a lv 30+ I’m not sure if this is a bug or not, but I think allowing people to get a taste of Elite isn’t a bad thing.

I should emphasize that this list is from the other contributors of this thread, not simply my own. The idea behind #4 is basically spreading the legendary items out among the elite bosses, giving you a specific reason to kill each one. Such as it EDIT: currently is in Kraken and Nordr, certain elite bosses drop unique legendary items. Also, the non-elite counterparts drop specific eggs, e.g. Man Eater drops Mercury, Alpha drops Kelvin, Frostbite drops Harley, and so on (sorry if I got those mixed up). Therefore, if a player wants a Nordr Jewel of Brutality, they must go kill elite Alpha for it. This type of loot system encourages players run other maps so that none of them become "dead" (obsolete, basically).

However, the problem we ran into with Nordr was in regards to Elite Mines of Nordia being introduced to the picture. This addition to the campaign gave players little reason to run the normal elite maps due to the same loot being offered within the mines (at a much better drop rate, I think). This instance was open for several weeks, and many players quickly geared up during this time. Those of us who chose not to spend plat on instances such as Elite Mines, however, continued trudging through the normal elite maps and either got lucky finding what we wanted or just continued to save up enough gold to buy our desired items from the CS. Fast forward to present day with the Shuyal Arena raining Noble chest pieces - why run Elite Grimnr anymore?

I guess the arena type maps aren't a bad thing. I certainly take advantage of and farm the Shuyal Arena to make gold. But if elite maps are taken away and these elite arenas are all we're left with, the dynamics of loot within them will have to be changed. Add more variety and lessen the drop rates, for starters.

[Kjalisi]

I came back to this thread out of interest to see where it had gone and wanted to post again!

Firstly some of the problems people are seeing could be easily overcome for example:

1) Egg drops. I presumed when I first read this post that it would function like this:

Normal maps scale up to player level. Perhaps that means you can't run your friend through all of the first few maps in 15 minutes but surely that's not a necessary part of the game and it just means everyone will have to progress fair and square through the game with no shortcuts.

Regular <scaled> bosses (think regular Jurn woods) would have a chance to drop elite chests. Rare spawn elite bosses would spawn in their given map, and eggs and specific elite gear would drop from those.

So regular Bael would now give a fair chance at an elite golden chest II, while "Elite Bael" would now be the boss where you dropped Malison. Given the amount of runs you need to do anyway to drop malison, this could be tweaked so that Malison had the exact same drop rate as before. The probability of finding Elite Bael would be very low, but the chance to drop Malison would be higher, so it would balance out.

2) Luck elixirs. This becomes problematic because many people farm with luck elixir and can get many boss fights out of one half hour elixir. This is also easily dealt with: sell a luck elixir which lasts less time: 10 minute luck elixir for 2 platinum which could be bought upon sighting an Elite boss. Depending on the difficulty of the boss or on what you are farming, you can buy the 10 minute luck, or the half hour one if you just want to farm crates from regular bosses (regular but not as you know them... I hope).

3) Tanks.
Yes on first sight it does seem like it would be difficult to maintain the key place in a party for a tank, as even the end game campaign maps do not really require one at the moment so even if all of the maps scale, its possible they would still end up being doable without a tank. I believe Carapace posted on solution to this above which would be to just change the pull patterns of the mobs in normal maps (though this would make it difficult for solo and PUG players), and their necessity in the raid style dungeons.

I saw someone suggested "elite oasis areas" above which brought to mind a simple way to deal with the homeless tank issue.

The rare elite bosses have (elite) minions. Perhaps not a LOT of minions, but something similar to elite glob where two minions spawn halfway through the fight, or similar to Bloodhammer where a large group of minions spawns also halfway through. Them spawning halfway through the fight would also mean that they weren't lying there in wait of low levels who chanced upon the elite boss but would only spawn after a group had made a good start on attacking him. This would work well if the elite bosses all appeared in "offshoots" of the map such like the ones where mini bosses in kraken and nordr currently appear.

On a last note there's always a "what if" ... surely if there IS a change to the system, working out how to most efficiently play it would also be part of the fun...

[Crowsfoot]

Uhm, why would I want to farm normal dungeons. I already get bored doing elite mages mines, at least elite nordor maps require me to focus. If I can solo harvest elite golds it destroys there worth and thus everything else in game becomes cheaper. So now I have to sell 5x the items for the same outcome.
Basically you just don't like using any potions. I vote no to dropping elite.

[Swede]

We've decided to keep the Elite maps for now. What really made up my mind was the role of the Warrior. That's not to say we still don't want to find a different solution but there are several things we have to address before we do (figure out how to make Warriors more useful against easier opponents as well as against bosses etc).

The feedback have been fantastic and you're welcome to keep it going, I will keep looking at the thread.

Thanks everyone!

[Pandamoni]

I think the elite maps might get played more if people knew that if they DC they can rejoin their group. I wonder if adding the option to have the run be timed elite or untimed (no chance at leader boards but team mates can get back in if they drop) might make a difference and help solve the issue of the difficulty of finding a good pug in elites. (or any pug at all. Ifi forget to dismiss my pet, I shouldn't have to stand there long enough tht he needs to get fed in order to even get a run started.)

[Alrisaia]

We've decided to keep the Elite maps for now. What really made up my mind was the role of the Warrior. That's not to say we still don't want to find a different solution but there are several things we have to address before we do (figure out how to make Warriors more useful against easier opponents as well as against bosses etc).

The feedback have been fantastic and you're welcome to keep it going, I will keep looking at the thread.

Thanks everyone!

Thank you - now I don't have to pay any plat to change our guild name to <Runners> That's awesome Swede and I can't wait to see what you're going to throw at us in Elite Shuyal!!!

[Taejo]

I think the elite maps might get played more if people knew that if they DC they can rejoin their group. I wonder if adding the option to have the run be timed elite or untimed (no chance at leader boards but team mates can get back in if they drop) might make a difference and help solve the issue of the difficulty of finding a good pug in elites. (or any pug at all. Ifi forget to dismiss my pet, I shouldn't have to stand there long enough tht he needs to get fed in order to even get a run started.)

Yes, this is a solid point within the thread. I appreciate Swede's response - but was hoping for a hinting of what's to come in terms of changes to elite maps. I think the option to make an elite run timed or not timed would be the best starting point for STS to resolve the resentment of elite maps. Letting people come and go in Elite maps would only foster a better community within the game, not to mention provide a quick solution to lost connections or people leaving being the cause of not finishing a map.

[Alrisaia]

I think the elite maps might get played more if people knew that if they DC they can rejoin their group. I wonder if adding the option to have the run be timed elite or untimed (no chance at leader boards but team mates can get back in if they drop) might make a difference and help solve the issue of the difficulty of finding a good pug in elites. (or any pug at all. Ifi forget to dismiss my pet, I shouldn't have to stand there long enough tht he needs to get fed in order to even get a run started.)

++; to this from me as well.

[FluffNStuff]

We've decided to keep the Elite maps for now. What really made up my mind was the role of the Warrior. That's not to say we still don't want to find a different solution but there are several things we have to address before we do (figure out how to make Warriors more useful against easier opponents as well as against bosses etc).

The feedback have been fantastic and you're welcome to keep it going, I will keep looking at the thread.

Thanks everyone!

Great! Now start a thread to figure a way to get all these scattered players into the same game. There HAS to be a way!