Feedback on New Gale Force, Devs please read :)

[Venom]

Adding the forward dash has made it really good for timed runs, kinda feels like a rogue and very easy to keep up. The problem is: People add the AOE upgrade so they can use it. Now when you charge gale for AOE, it keeps dashing you forward, hence making you lose the desired spot/position of attack. I have stopped charging it while i am fighting mobs because of this. It's very annoying to keep moving from one place to another when you don't want to.

How about after adding the AOE upgrade, uncharged gale performs as an AOE skill itself? The charged version can grant you the speed+dash OR uncharged version grants AOE+speed and charged version gives dash ability.

[JaytB]

I already suggested several solutions in the patch thread. One of them was more or less what you suggested here.

I agree but it doesn't seem devs are responding. Hopefully you get more luck with your thread.

[Energizeric]

Rasi was using it in CTF to run flags, and the dash was really cool, but he said he could not think of another use for the skill. So I guess if you need a flag running build, that would be useful, but otherwise no. Pretty useless for all other tasks.

[Dondarrius]

Dear Swede (and/or any other devs involved)

I came here to start a similar thread, but since Defamed had already uttered his concern I would like to join him in discussing the changes to the Gale Force.

Let’s start with the positives, because this is not a negative rant of any kind, and I will try to write this as constructively as possible.


The positives (PVP)
The addition of a forward dash is a welcome change to the PVP aspect of the game. Rogues and Warriors have their own kind of dash, making it a lot faster/easier for them to flag, and the addition of the Sorceror Dash evens the playing field between classes, so thank you for that!

I assume that the forward dash was added primarily to improve Gale in PVP, as I can also see some new tactics arising from this which is cool.


Background for my concern
However I am afraid that you did not consider the ramifications for the PVE-use of Gale. I will try to keep it as short as possible, but I feel like I need to offer some background info, please accept my apologies for the lengthiness of this text.

So first of all I primarily play as a mage, have been since the Kraken Isles, and I primarily play PVE. I placed on top 25 mages last season, which I mention solely for you to get a feel for how many hours I have put in, and to legitimise the fact that I know the game mechanics of AL very well. For some reason, farming is what I find to be the most entertaining, and when I first started playing I stuck to the traditional way of playing as a mage.


The traditional mage spec (damage focus)
This means using Lightning and timeshift, with variations of Fireball/Ice and Shield/Heal, depending on the specific purpose. Lets say I choose Fireball, Lightning, Timeshift and Heal for now. With this spec I traditionally follow the Tank, dealing out DOTS and making sure mobs stay stunned and rooted, while getting to zap some damage with lightning. It’s an efficient spec, you are an important part of the team, it’s just, there’s very little of your character that stands out. You just do damage to all of them, while following someone else around.


Alternative spec, a more dynamic playing experience (strategy focus)
What really reinvigorated my passion for playing as a mage, came when Gale was changed the last time. I experimented with it as a result of getting the Mythic Gun and I wanted something that could help me clean up some of the accidental procs that spread out the mobs. So I specced Heal, Gale, Timeshift and alternating between Fireball and Ice depending on the map.

I found that replacing lightning with gale allowed me to play on a whole new level, where the mage could influence the strategy in a completely new way. Of course, it came at a damage-cost, but it was still worth it, because I could come up with new pulls that saved time, even though I output less damage, and I could increase team-survivability by focusing on stunning the enemy, and just having the rogues do the damage. But I am getting ahead of myself. Let me explain the different scenarios in (over)simplified terms:

If you have two packs of mobs, the first one X and the next Y, I usually with the FB/HEAL/LIGHT/TIME spec run to pack X with the rest of the group, kill them, and proceed to the next. Pretty straightforward.

With the FB/HEAL/GALE/TIME I could as a mage speedrun to pack X, arriving there before my group, FB stun, Clock and then stun them with Gale again as I run to Group Y, FB no stun, and pull them back to X.

Now, what allowed me to do that was two things, it’s the speed and the shield boost. Combined they allowed me to survive and come back to pack X in time, before they all were killed (like would happen with no gale, because running/walking takes so long).

The details are not really that important. What is important is that Gale opened up for some completely new strategies, not only for the mage as a single player, but the group as a whole, which makes playing as a mage a really fun and dynamic experience. You suddenly had a lot more influence over what was happening.

With the “Lightning”-spec you could argue that it's more about following and doing damage, the “Gale”-spec is more about leading, taking charge and crowd control. This is such a fun spec to play, especially with the push-proc from the Mythic Stone, because you need to come up with strategies for 1) where to pull your mobs, and 2) where to position yourself (all the time!)

For me the latter is a much more creative way to play than just repeating a combination of button presses while standing in the same place, which unfortunately I tend to feel like I am doing if I stay in "Lightning"-spec for too long.


So what is the problem?
Anyhoo, to get to the point, with the new forward dash, this favorite spec of mine no longer allows me to play like that. Why?

It’s the forward dash. I still can run fast by not charging, but for example that will not allow me to stun pack X as I’m running to pull pack Y. Also I will not have the added shield bonus, leaving me much more vulnerable and likely to get killed.

So why cant I simply dash from pack X to pack Y? It’s a matter of control. The combination of mythic rune push procs, stuns and gale, leave everything in the environment more random, and you need control on a granular level for positioning which is the alpha and omega of this playing style.

The dash forces you forward in a straight line, rendering you unable to maneuver for about 3 seconds, which is not just negative when it comes to pulling the exact mobs you need (a fine art by the way, that we spend a lot of time researching, tweaking and refining to improve times and overall strategy), but also when it comes to environmental hazards such as ice patches etc., and I don't even want to think about what happens when you factor in lag.

As a sidenote, lag was incidentally the reason the backwards dash didn’t work. I remember trying this out a lot on elite Oltgar. Even with good ping, the backwards dash was unable to save me. On my own screen I would dash out of his red warning zone, but in 99% of the time I would still take damage and curse myself for not charging instead to receive the armor bonus.


Solution ideas / Conclusion
I would like to make a plea that you consider doing some minor changes to bring back the usefulness of Gale to PVE, so that we Gale loving mages can continue to work on our crowd control strategies.

An easy solution would be to isolate forward dash as it’s own ability. You could pair the speed boost with the armor boost. Or you could make the speed boost part of the skill itself, not an upgrade. It wouldn’t be unfair, it is the primary motivation for most mages to use the ability. Personally I would prefer any of the above. This way PVE players could simply opt out from the dash upgrade. And if you think about it, the dash, in either direction has always been the problem child. Isolating it would remove all your worries.

Another solution would be to follow the logics from the “backwards dash days”, where charged is speed boost, and single tap is dash, only difference is now its forward instead of backwards. The downside to this solution is that it would negatively effect todays PVP players, as they would not get the speed boost, only the dash.

To comment on Defameds solution, I think PVE players would be at a loss since they would not receive the armor bonus. This is something that should not be underestimated, and I feel like it would be hard to defend picking gale over other abilities using this solution. Also honestly I can’t really see myself using the forward dash in PVE except in really select situations (like running towards a boss or similar) due to the movement restrictions that apply. Basically I think it is unfair to the skill itself, to bind so many of its buffs, it’s potential, to a limited, one directional movement. It works in PVP, but in PVE where the environmental factors are something completely different, it just nerfs the ability completely.

Thank you for listening.
/Donda



TL;DR: Please remove forward dash on charged, it ruins a huge part of PVE strategizing.

[GoodSyntax]

Very well written Dondarrius!

As with the case of Rogues where an uncharged Shadow Piercer dashes forward, but a charged skill dashes to attack 2 or 3 enemies (which if done incorrectly can really mess up your pulls), I think Gale should follow a similar model.

Perhaps a fair middle-ground would be to have dash as part of the uncharged skill, with the AoE + Speed Boost only when charged. My hangup on the whole issue is the fact that taking a temporary armor boost after you do an AoE knock-down is kind of silly. Most of your +Armor time is wasted while the mobs recover from the knock down, so the buff is even more temporary that it would seem. I think that an alternate buff would be more valuable, maybe a +20% Crit AoE party buff to help the party dispense of the knocked down mobs.

Another suggestion would be to make charged Gale do DoT similar to Razor Shield (I imagine a 10m long tornado cone of DoT), which really enhances the already impressive AoE and DoT ability that Sorcs already possess and sacrifice the +Armor.

Personally, I think Sorcs have too much +Armor/HP bonuses right now - between 2s of invulnerability and the lingering Arcane Shield, on top of Gale's +Armor, means that Sorcs potentially can Tank better than Warriors for short stints. Armor has been, and should continue to be, the major weakness of the class. Rogues suffer from mana starvation, Warriors have the lowest DMG of the three classes (generally speaking), so it is only right that each class have a major shortcoming. To balance this, STS should buff the strengths of the class (Dodge, Crit and 1v1 DMG for Rogues, Crowd Control, AoE and DoT for Sorcs, Tanking, Shielding and Aggro management for Warriors).

[Uzii]

This new gale is a funny thing. I was like ping pong ball, wee-wee around the map haha. But very unpractical. With this dash i ended up too far forward, in a group of another mobs i didnt mean to trigger at all.

Edit: another solution would be to move both AoE and armor to both uncharged and charged, and then leave the forward dash as it is. Personally I would prefer this option. For PvE you need that 50% extra armor if you're not running with a shield and/or heal build.

As it stands now, you'll often get killed when charging gale to get that 50% extra armor. Sorcerers are squishy (they don't have high armor/health like a warrior, or dodge like a rogue) so moving armor to uncharged and charged would help a lot during elite runs IMO.

(from http://www.spacetimestudios.com/show...=1#post1263004)
Ill prefer this solution too.

....Personally, I think Sorcs have too much +Armor/HP bonuses right now - between 2s of invulnerability and the lingering Arcane Shield, on top of Gale's +Armor, means that Sorcs potentially can Tank better than Warriors for short stints.

This is only thing i disagree in ur post. Sorcerers r far more squishier as other classes. For those benefits u r talking abt they must charge their skills, in the mean time they could just end up dead, even poting will not save them. And dead sorcerer is a useless sorcerer, no benefit from his AoE dmg. So i think is kind of balance. Thers planning involved how u approach group of mobs.

[GoodSyntax]

I agree that Sorcs are squishy, but that is their major weakness. It's kind of like giving +1000 mana to a Rogue - you would be minimizing the major weakness of the class.

Beyond that, at least in PvE, the armor buff is hampered by gale knocking down the mobs close to you, so the armor benefit is limited to the few seconds that remain after the mobs regain their footing. Being an AoE and DoT machine, I just think that anything that improves the strengths of the class is more appropriate than something that minimizes the weakness of the class. I know that it is unpopular, but I think that uncharged Shield should provide immunity, which helps to offset the loss of the armor buff that I am recommending with a new Gale.

In this type of build, a Sorc launches a fireball, drops a clock and followed by gale....then sits back and watches the 3x DoT tick away while the mobs are snared. As soon as the clock disappears, tap shield, Slag panic then rinse and repeat. Yes, squishy, but super formidable.

[chitgoks]

i never play pvp and ive been happy with the skills given to sorc

was srprised previously the backward push when gale isnt charged but i got used to it.

but doing the opposite now? i had to give up this skill cuz i use wind primarily for speed and pushing mobs away from me in case im in a pinch.

make a skill set for pve and pvp. this is totally annoying

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Taejo]

Very well constructed post, Dondarrius! I have nothing to add because I agree with every solution you've presented.

[katish]

My preferred solution is the one offered by taejo kiting on a diff thread) and defamed.. If you get the aoe upgrade it converts gale to pure aoe, charged or not.

That would allow for more flexibility..

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

[JaytB]

My preferred solution is the one offered by taejo kiting on a diff thread) and defamed.. If you get the aoe upgrade it converts gale to pure aoe, charged or not.

That would allow for more flexibility..

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

I agree, coolest would be to have AoE, Armor and speed uncharged and charged, with forward dash only on charged.

[Taejo]

Solution ideas / Conclusion
I would like to make a plea that you consider doing some minor changes to bring back the usefulness of Gale to PVE, so that we Gale loving mages can continue to work on our crowd control strategies.

An easy solution would be to isolate forward dash as it’s own ability. You could pair the speed boost with the armor boost. Or you could make the speed boost part of the skill itself, not an upgrade. It wouldn’t be unfair, it is the primary motivation for most mages to use the ability. Personally I would prefer any of the above. This way PVE players could simply opt out from the dash upgrade. And if you think about it, the dash, in either direction has always been the problem child. Isolating it would remove all your worries.

In addition to this, reduce the distance of the dash ability. By reducing the distance, we'll be able to regain control of our sorcerer much sooner - which has its benefits in both PvP and PvE. Also, it has been brought up in a separate thread that the distance of dash while a sorcerer is flagging seems to be unfair.

EDIT: Added hyperlink to thread

[chitgoks]

naah. no dash in pve. dont like it. doesnt have any use for it. the speed from the charged gale wind is enough

they need to stop screwing this around and changing whenever pvpers complain.

again have toons use separate skillsets for pvp and pve. sts can make more money from this too

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[rivet]

The original gale force is still the best.

No forward nor backward dash.

Charge to boost speed and aoe.

[JaytB]

The original gale force is still the best.

No forward nor backward dash.

Charge to boost speed and aoe.

I agree and really hope devs will reconsider making Gale worth it again. Only armor, speed and the AoE crowd control/damage components are really useful for PvE. Although it's cool to be able to dash forward quickly, for most, it has little use for PvE.

The speed boost ultimately added to your survivability because you were able to get away from danger quicker. As things stand now, you aren't able to use that speed buff together with the AoE and armor buffs, without getting flung away like a tennis ball.

I think it's cool that devs came up with something good for PvP but it shouldn't come at the cost of PvE, especially when there are several suggested easy ways to make it work optimal for both PvE and PvP.

[Alhuntrazeck]

I love gale in PvP flagging now. I can zoom through the map racing any class who dares chase me! I am the MAGE. Dun dun dunnnnn!

Don't wanna see it go

[Energizeric]

All good posts in this discussion. I have a suggestion to solve this issue. Normally the charged skill is the one that gives more features, while the uncharged skill is the more basic "plain" skill. But it seems with Gale there is no "plain" version, just different. So perhaps the PvP version should be the uncharged, and the PvE should be the charged.

So the question is, what is it we want from each version? Here is my opinion:

PvP/Uncharged: Should include the forward dash, speed boost, armor increase, but not include the AoE

PvE/Charged: Should include speed boost, armor increase & AoE, but not include the forward dash


Would that solve the problem? (I ask because I'm not a Gale user, but could see myself adding this skill if all these issues were sorted out well)

[Psykopathic28]

Ok I'm not gonna repost problem and all that over and over. I'm gonna try to keep short n sweet.
Let's not ask for the world here
To me a perfect gale :
Uncharged - 15%-25% armor buff, aoe attack. No speed
Charged - 50% armor buff. Speed buff. Aoe attack. Forward dash
(Assuming all skill points have been added.) We have no need for speed if we are trying not to dash so why ask for it and/or give it to us, but a small armor buff in that situation would be nice. The speed obviously is what we need if we are using the dash as we are like flagging or escaping which makes armor still useful. I'm sure every1 could agree with this logic?

[sparky0624]

Keep it the way it was. Keeps blowing forward or backward and out of position. Very annoying. Don't necessarily care about the stats. Leave them as they were, just need to stay in one place when using this power.

[sparky0624]

Thank you! Very annoying