some might say birds are "underpowered" under 50

[Burningdex]

hi guys n gals its burn here to talk to you about birds pre forg and post forg. Now if this sounds like a rant thread just please.... let me finish

Now, before the forgotten items were released birds were always slightly underpowered under lvl50 the op class/es (the mage/bear) were always able to kill a bird with ease. But when there is an OP class there is a skilled group of players who play as the underpowered class and are able to bear down anything that stands in their way, they were able to confidently destroy everything even when they had the short end of the stick. Even while people may have rushed them for "haxing" they still killed them; amd how did they do this. you may ask well they use something not alot of players have since forg called "skill" and how did they obtain this you may or may not be asking well just played, didnt complain when they lost. due to "lag" or "rush".

But when forgs came out everything changed.... the birds now were the op class as the damage carried by the forgotten bows way outranked that of the previous "op" items. If you do not beleive me kindly cast your eyes to a thread made by Yich

There has been a lot of arguing about forgotten weapons in the past, this is true. Some would say that another forgotten weapon thread would be kicking a dead horse. I disagree, and I have something new to bring to the table.

Exhibit A
Attachment 17470

Here we have a picture of the difference between an Elite blaster set and a forgotten bow, which is about to be equipped. The forgotten bow gives slightly more DPS and hit %, which points in its favor, but again, slightly. It lowers armor, dodge, health regen, and mana pool. The proc lowers hit % by 30 %, which really isn't much considering the average endgamer has oober high hit % anyway.

Next, Exhibit B

Attachment 17471

This is a level 51 with what I would consider "top tier" gear. While this is not as accurate due to the fact that it would be an impossible dual spec, it still proves my final point in a way. First, the stats are not that much higher than the old "top tier" gear. If you think they are, you might not want to see the next screenshots to come.

Exhibit C

Attachment 17472

This is the stat difference from a level 17 pink talon and 15 pink (platinum purchased) wing. This was a very common combination among low level bears in the past, not so much now. I think the dps being multiplied by itself speaks for itself, but just in case, I'll help it. If you haven't already noticed, DPS in low level is actually DPS. The tiny amount of armor means that the DPS stat will be much more accurate on the battlefield. Just to clarify, this is 2x the DPS from the previous common weapon.

Exhibit D

Attachment 17473

The previous "special" weapon. The Snowball Launcher (SBL), is very much overpowered in low level PvP. This was also a commonly used weapon before the forgotten bows, the 15 purple SBL. It ranged from 350-500k. The proc freezes your opponent if you're lucky, giving you the chance to stomp them for a COMBO, dealing extra damage and looking pretty sweet. The forgotten proc debuffs hit percentage down 30%, which is a big deal in low level, where every hit counts (especially when they deal 200+ damage when buffed). Notice that the DPS goes up 62 points and the proc is debatably stronger. No stats go down in this trade for weapons, so long as you're trading for the forgotten bow.


Before the forgotten update, most (if not all) low level bears were pure spec dexterity. At 51-56 PvP, bears dual spec-ed dexterity and strength. At endgame, anything was possible, but usually the only pure dexterity spec would be a bird.

The point (finally): 70-71 PvP was slightly affected by this update because the weapons stats just weren't up to par to compete with the endgame weapons in the first place. It's just not worth giving up the set bonus and 70 crafted weapons/shields (or 71 elite blaster in this case). 51-56 PvP was affected because the stats on the forgotten weapons slightly trump the stats on the 51-56 weapons, but when the base stat requirement was raised, PvP mostly returned to normal, as few gave up their dual spec to equip a forgotten bow. Lastly, we have 10-17 PvP, where the stat difference is pretty similar, and obviously overpowered. The damage doubles that of the previously used weapons, and even goes as far as to add to other stats like dodge and hit % (when paired with the SBL). Since most low level bears were pure spec anyway, the base dexterity requirement being raised did not quite fix this weapons dominance over all others. I could write a book on how OP these bows made birds, but I don't know the first thing about birds.

I'm not quite finished though, here we have Exhibit E

Attachment 17473

For all of you darlings who want to wag your finger and say "Oh but the SBL was OP before, and no one complained then ", I show you this. A considerable amount more DPS, sure, but take a closer look. -11 Hit %, and -9 Armor. That's a huge disadvantage. HUGE. Now, you're probably saying "Oh but the SBL freezes, silly ". I'd just like to give a free tip to those newcomers. Mages can heal out of the freeze proc. Birds can use shatter to free themselves. Bears can use stomp to free themselves, and if timed right, they can stomp a bear away, effectively juking away from the stomp while avoiding a deadly shatter combo. The SBL was beatable, shame on any who say otherwise.

Here are the last two, they go hand in hand. Exhibit F and G

[ATTACH=CONFIG]17474[/ATTACH

Me using my X-bow to kite a forgotten bow. In this situation, it is either a stalemate (because my opponent will be smart enough to run back and take cover from my long range weapon), or I am at the advantage (because my opponent will not be smart enough to do that, and I will hit them with a dozen arrows before they get within range).

Attachment 17475

Me using my forgotten bow, hiding behind a wall. In this situation, it is either a stalemate (because my opponent won't walk around the wall to their guaranteed death), or I have the advantage (because my opponent is dumb enough to walk around the wall to his/her guaranteed death).


I just had to add these last two to help people visually grasp the concept that kiting doesn't always work. When the first stalemate occurs, the forgotten user must run to cover, and if they're smart, they will see the X-bow from far away and just camp behind a wall. When they take cover or sit behind said wall, the second stalemate occurs. At this point, the two must either agree to use something other than forgotten bows, or the X-bow user must switch to the forgotten bow. When either player chooses to no cooperate, it all boils down to the forgotten weapons. Since most here know that low level isn't exactly "full" of cooperative players, you can make an educated guess that they won't be calling, they will be using the OP forgotten bow in the case of a stalemate. With such an overpowered weapon, the use of it is inevitable, if someone wishes to succeed. It's not just the cheap common weapon here guys, its the only option.

Thanks for reading. (If you didn't read it all, save your flames for another time)

now that that is over and done with lets talk about what auctually happened after the release of forgs, well , every class swapped over to dex to weild the "op" bows this caused everyone who joined during the "forg era" to think this was how pvp was meant to be played (e.g. birds using break blast dead; mages drain fire, bears beckon stomp would kill all in sight) well i and many others can confidently tell you its not. birds may have the most damgage skills yes but they hit less per shot than a mage or bear and this means a bird will have to use that weird thing called "skill" again e.g. repulse to juke their nuke then root debuff and combo or just use their own nuke combo.

pvp on bird is again made slightly harder due to the root,dodge and crit nerfs. this patch made them squishy as jelly



and for anyone curious on how to play a bird look at this guide and yes i know its for 50-55 pvp but same stratergies apply (mostly) all credits to mightymicah

Post Nerf Guide/Feedback For Avian 50-56 PvP

I Quick Dictionary
II Summary
III Builds
IV Strategies
V Balance
VI Conclusion

Quick Dictionary
Build: The way your character is set up. This includes skill points, attributes, weapons, etc.

Glass canon: A character who has set up their toon to do all the damage of a canon, and maintain all the survivability of glass. Hence the term "Glass canon."

Tank: A character set up to deal minimum damage and maintain maximum survivability. Another term people use is "Bunker."

(Any more definitions needed? Post in comments)

Summary

Hello Spacetime PvPers! Today I've decided to give my feedback on 50-56 PvP and specifically from the perspective of a 51 Avian. Before I get into that, let me just give a brief introduction for those of you who don't know me.

First of all, I joined the game Nov 12th, 2010. I actually ended up going inactive during the month January 2011 but I returned shortly after and have been playing actively ever since (aside from a recent month break. I intended to quit but the recent nerf drew me back in with great hopes.) Anyways, I have spent the majority of my time at level 50-56 PvP with various classes. I've amassed several thousands of kills on many secret alts as well as characters that have been deleted for various reasons never to return. In total I can brag probably over 40k kills at levels 50-56. I say this not to pat myself on the back, but rather to inform my audience that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to 50-56 PvP. This doesn't make me absolutely right in everything I say, but I do believe it entitles me to have my opinion judged and listened to carefully. Please join me as I examine my findings for my most recent (and favorite) character at level 51 PvP.

To start off, I will say that the nerfs have changed everything quite a lot! I'm sure you all are aware of this. Across the board critical and damage have been nerfed to a big degree as well as dodge. Now, the first thought that came into my head was this: Either tank or glass canon builds are about to become very mainstream.

Let me explain my thinking. Every time damage is nerfed across the board, glass canon's lose their one strength which is of course damage. This means that tanks can generally survive the glass canons nuke and then finish off their squishy opponent. So why would glass canons become mainstream? This leads to my next thought.

Often, when damage is nerfed across the board, tanks literally lose the only bit of damage that they have. When this happens, glass canons are able to survive the tank's measly damage and finish him off. The fact that dodge got nerfed enforces this theory.

So what actually happened? Well, obviously I can't speak for all levels of PvP, but for 51 I can pretty safely say that neither one happened! That is to say that neither tanks, nor glass canons have become too over powered. Why? Because I failed to realize that hit% is now an issue. Since I've mostly played as an avian I don't ever worry about hit%. Avians used to have a 30% hit buff which pretty much guaranteed a hit as long as I could maintain a passive 100% hit. This is because the other classes don't have more than 30% hit debuff. (Removed statement. Thanks, Gregorak ) Anyways, Avians no longer have this buff! They can only buff 20% hit. This may not seem much like an observation but it will become important in a few minutes so keep this in mind.

There is one other important thing to mention before moving on to the good stuff. This important thing is regen! It is my current opinion that regen is very important for two major reasons. The first reason is that we have just come out of an age which encouraged rushing (free for all, whatever you wanna call it. We can debate this later. Regardless...) This means that you constantly are going to need to be on your toes. When your regen is low, you can't always be ready for the next fight. The other important thing to note is that fights are going to last longer! Certainly dodge was debuffed, but so was damage. Overall I believe offense suffered more than defense. This means that it will take more time to deal the damage necessary to kill your opponent. In turn, this means that fights will last longer and therefore regen is more important. Ok. On to the good stuff!

So now the question us 51 Avians face is what build do we go for? Do we use glass canon? Do we use tank? Do we make a hybrid? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each? We'll start by examining the glass canon. (Bare in mind that all following pictures are without any extra vanity or ring stats.)

Builds

Everyone knows that the most glass canon-ish build possible is to go pure raid roach for damage, crit, and hit %. Also go 100% dexterity for the extra stats from that. Here's a picture of the stats-



Now the big question. Is this build viable? Can I succeed with this pure glass canon? I would submit to you that the big answer is no! Take a look at the dodge, health pool, regen, and armor. You're going to be very squishy and simply will not have time to inflict the damage you need to to kill your enemy. Certainly, in a free for all with a tank on your team, you might could do pretty well, but we are just generally speaking here. You will probably die a quick and painless death. On to tanks...

Now what about the most tanky tank? Well to my knowledge the most tanky tank would be a pure strength avian with royal sewer helm and armor and fury shield and sword. This way you'll have good armor, lots of health from strength, and lots of dodge as well. Here are the stats-



Is this build viable? Freaking no! Obviously long ago people figured out that pure strength bird is no bueno. Just in case you are new to the game or whatever, let me briefly explain. Certainly, you are pretty tanky but your hit% and damage is enough reason to scrap the build. Your buffed hit% is 86%. Imagine that with a 30% debuff. Now you have 56% hit and can't even damage a fly even if you could hit anything. Also, you can still be killed by anyone with decent damage. You didn't gain THAT much tanking power by going pure strength. Because of this analysis I will now only use tank builds with minimum stats into strength. (108) Keep this principle in mind.

So what about a tanky tank with the dex needed for good hit%? Here are the stats (Same gear with max dex added)-



Is this build viable? Very much so! It's no over powered build, but it can be done. Your weakness is mostly found in your low damage and hit%. However, if played smartly you can do pretty well. Especially against those dang glass canons.

Now you are probably wondering, "What about the glass canon only with strength stats?" I'm glad you asked! Here are the stats of a raid roach character with strength-



Is this build viable? I would have to still say no. You have gained some survivability but not much. You will still die a quick and painless death.

So now you are probably wondering if glass canons can really be done at all? I would say that if you define a glass canon as only a damaging build, then no. However if you consider glass canons as just predominantly damage, then yes! Consider the following raid helm, raid bow, and royal sewer armor. Here are the stats-



Is this build viable? I use it all the time. It is a very good balance between damage and armor with damage as the predominant idea for the build. The biggest problem I have with this build is the mana regen. 0 mana regen can be a bigger problem than people seem to realize.

One way to fix the above problem is with a sewer bow. In the following picture I use sewer bow for regen, hit%, and damage, and the rest is as tanky as I can get with royal sewer helm and armor-



Is this build viable? Certainly! This is what you will mostly find me wearing in pvp. It is my favorite build when it comes to free for all.

Another thing every 51 should consider is level 50 gear! I tried a pure dex death bird, but it just seemed like the worst of both worlds. In other words, too squishy and not enough damage. However, with strength and dex stats, it isn't half bad-



Is this build viable? Yes, it is. However, I don't generally use it. I prefer mixes of other gear.

Ok so we have examined many builds thus far. I don't wish to examine any more because I'm not trying to just give you a list of builds. My hope is that you Spacetime players will begin thinking for yourselves! One group of gear I didn't even mention is drainers. That will give you much more to work with. Always remember when picking out stats to consider hit% first and foremost. (If you can't hit, you can't kill.) Next consider health pool, armor, dodge, and regen. You want to survive long enough to kill your opponent. Lastly, consider damage and critical. You may survive a long time but you are wasting your time if you still lose the fight in the long run.

Strategies

Ok so first thing is first. You need to know where to put your skill points. Here is where mine are-



Why this set up? Well you don't want mana or hp regen. Those are a total waste in my opinion. You don't want more than 1 in shattering scream. It's only purpose is the cruel blast combo for double damage. (Shattering scream followed by blast shot.) I've been ridiculed for saying this before but from my years of playing I've noticed that while casting shattering scream (and for a brief second or two afterwards) you are extra vulnerable to attacks. Therefore, shattering isn't to be spammed as an armor debuff. Also, as a bow bird you want to stay fairly far from your opponent and shattering scream requires closer combat. Why 1 in avian scream? Some people have put 4 so that they can break free of roots but I don't see the point. To me it's a waste. The reason I put 1 in avian is because there are times when people get on top of you. In this situation, avian scream is great to push them back. Also, when you combo avian scream with repulse shot, you have a chance to push the enemy back insanely far. This can be very helpful in certain situations.

Now it's time for basic strategies against opponents. I'll start with the three original classes since I'm most familiar with them. Before I go into that, however, I'll go over a few basic principles of a bird.

As a bow bird you need to do your best to stay at 10-12 meter range! A lot of the other classes don't have many skills that can reach that far. This will give you an insane advantage and allow you to kill without being scratched. The only time it is acceptable to move in close is when you know for sure that your opponent will go down. Even then, try to only move in just close enough to use your cruel blast combo. Sometimes things go wrong and even when you were so sure your opponent would die, he doesn't. Then you'll need to quickly retreat to 10-12 meter range again.

As a warbird try to always remain in close combat! The extra damage of your sword slashing the opponent does far more than you might expect. Also, it gives you the extra skill avian scream to use to inflict damage and stun your opponent as well a sustained extra dps of the constant cruel blast combo. Be careful with your roots. Try and use them sparingly in order to keep opponent stuck in place.

Avians: When fighting another avian there are many things to consider. Always try and learn the weapon looks in the game well enough to make a good guess as to your opponents build. If you know your opponent is wearing full raid, you'll know you've got to kill him quick enough so that he doesn't kill you. In other words, find their weakness! Sometimes you've got to fight your opponent a few times to analyze just what their weakness is. Usually, though, there a few given weaknesses. For instance, a warbird's strength will never be range and a bow bird's strength will never be close combat. Another thing to realize is that warbirds will almost always be lacking in hit% due to the recent nerf. Use blind shot first! Especially if you are a warbird yourself. Always remember to debuff their dodge appropriately with roots, repulse when you predict they are using their cruel blast combo, etc.

Mages: When fighting a Mage it is fairly simple now, thanks to the recent nerf. Just make sure their shield is off at all times! For warbirds, this is even more crucial. Most mages have great mana regen and there is almost no point to dwindling down their mana while they are in mana shield. Get it off, and get it off fast. Another thing to watch out for is their ice. If they root you and then use firestorm, they'll get a combo and it hurts bad. Once you see them cast ice, use repulse and there's a greater chance that their ice will miss or be dodged. If they are a dex Mage, they'll try and nuke you. Just repulse them or finish them before they have a chance to react. I prefer the latter. If they're strength, just keep their hit debuffed. This principle actually works with most classes.

Bears: Bears are actually much more similar to birds than people realize. Mostly because they can use dex and strength gear interchangeably just as birds can. A general principle for fighting a bear is to use blind to keep their hit% low. If they are extremely dodgy, or glass canony, warbird is a great option for killing them. They'll either lose their dodge and then go down, or simply go down. Try not to get too close to them until they are ready to go down.

Foxes: These guys are tricky little boogers and I haven't seen too many of them around. For the most part they can tank for a few seconds and then they become very vulnerable. Generally I use warbird against them and tank their damage until they are vulnerable, then finish them off with a double root and cruel blast or something along those lines. For the most part, you should be beating these guys. If you aren't, try and examine their build closer and find their weakness.

Rhinos: In all honesty these guys are probably your biggest threat. (Except for maybe other birds) The reason why is because they can tank so much damage! If you go glass canon, they will kill you before you can unleash your full power. If you go warbird, you'll never kill them. The best method I've used is generally a balance between damage and survivability. Your goal is to keep repeatedly nuking them until they fall. It's a tedious process and you've got to know how to survive, but it works ok. Generally I'll have to use every skill I've got to stop them. I'd say use them in a logical order, and you'll be fine. (Debuffs, then damage)

A little disclaimer here-I'm no pro at fighting foxes or rhinos. I honestly don't know enough about them yet. Perhaps in the future I can be more detailed in my explanations for how to beat them! For now, I hope I at least helped.

Balance

One important thing I'd like to discuss before ending this thread is the issue of balance. Obviously with the recent nerf, people are wondering if the classes are balanced. I'd say it's a little too early to tell at the moment. However, I'll go ahead and give my opinion as of now.

I think that the classes are very balanced! I'd say foxes and rhinos still get the short end of the stick, but they have gotten better. Mages no longer win by default verses a bird. (Freaking finally!) Bears no longer win by default verses a Mage, and birds no longer win by default verses a bear. It literally depends on the build and the individual player's skill. Certainly luck is still an element, as it always will be in a game with a dodge mechanic. However, I feel that a good Mage, bear, or bird can dominate the playing field if they take the time to learn everything about their class and others at 50-56. Now, I can't say the same for foxes or rhinos just yet. I will say, though, that I've noticed more and more talented rhinos and foxes showing up and whooping some other classes. So they are the underdog, but they aren't dead and gone.

The last thing I'll say is please refrain from all of the dumb forum posts. This nerf literally just happened! It's gonna take some time to decide if things really are balanced. Like I said above, that was my opinion as of now. My opinion may change. Please try and adopt my mindset. Be ready to change your mind. Analyze your character just as I have in this thread before raging on the forums about this nerf. You may find that your character isn't quite as bad as you feel it is.

Conclusion

My conclusion of this thread is that 51 Avians are very, very fun and good to play! I believe as of now that the level is balanced and there is more diversity than ever with the recent nerf! Watch out for 56's and have fun!

If my guide and feedback helped you, be sure and let me know in the comments! Also, hit me up in game if you'd like to know any more tips and stuff. My ign is MightyMicah.

Lastly I wanted to address one final issue which relates to Avians. I have noticed that many, many people (I'm guilty of this, myself in the past) will ridicule Avians when they are not full dex. Let me just say that that is outright, downright stupid. Often, a lot of weird classes get ridiculed for picking some unique stat. The reason STS made a nerf like this is partly, I'm sure, to increase build diversity! For crying out loud, play the way you want to play and the way that is most fun to you. Shoot, if you like having a pure strength avian that never dies, do it! Don't let me, or anyone else stop you. After taking a break and playing Guild Wars 2, I realize just how stupid the "pure dex" mentality was.

Play what you love. Love what you Play. But always remember...


Peace out, guys and have fun rocking your Avians!
-Micah

TOO LONG DIDNT READ?

not many people can play birds under 50 since forg was nerfed please look at the quotes above


thanks for reading and please save flaming for a later day

BIRDS ARE STILL PLAYABLE JUST TAKE A BIT MORE "SKILL"

[BlueSkied]

What was the point of your thread? I'm genuinely curious.

[Burningdex]

What was the point of your thread? I'm genuinely curious.

tbh idk i guess it was to show newer players that it is still possible to play bird after the nerf

[Caiahar]

What was the point of your thread? I'm genuinely curious.

tbh idk i guess it was to show newer players that it is still possible to play bird after the nerf

Yep.

[BlueSkied]

It's possible to play bird at any level, really. It's only possible to earn a respectable kdr at certain ones, though.

[Burningdex]

It's possible to play bird at any level, really. It's only possible to earn a respectable kdr at certain ones, though.

true but personally to me it felt like the entire forums was saying "O EEM GEEE BIRDS ARE UNDERPOWERED"

[Misfit]

Birds are not underpowered at under 50 because of the fbow nerf, they are underpowered because of the both buff and root nerf. Warbirds would be fine if they didn't nerf these skills so badly.

[Burningdex]

Birds are not underpowered at under 50 because of the fbow nerf, they are underpowered because of the both buff and root nerf. Warbirds would be fine if they didn't nerf these skills so badly.

true

[Zeus]

tbh idk i guess it was to show newer players that it is still possible to play bird after the nerf

Anyone who could get through your thread and understand it probably has enough intelligence to figure out a bird build. However, I do like the effort! Kudos!

[GRIZZY]

Anyone feel like telling me what this thread said? I scrolled for like 5 minutes and then realized I was just looking at the very nice pictures

[Burningdex]

Anyone who could get through your thread and understand it probably has enough intelligence to figure out a bird build. However, I do like the effort! Kudos!

thx and yes sorry the grammars kinda terrible

@grizzy just rrying to point out that birds are still a decent class under L50

[Twinklaser]

You obviously have not tried 45 Ballista birds. Ballista>Forgo even before the nerf.

[Burningdex]

You obviously have not tried 45 Ballista birds. Ballista>Forgo even before the nerf.

yea ive heard

[Sus]

Uhm... how is Micah's lvl 51 bird guide supposed to represent birds under level 50?

[Burningdex]

Uhm... how is Micah's lvl 51 bird guide supposed to represent birds under level 50?

nothing just shows some tactics for pure dex and warbirds which are suitable for all levels

[Roberto077]

thx and yes sorry the grammars kinda terrible

Your grammar may be bad, but at least you beat 80% of the internet just by knowing how to spell grammar.

[Glo]

Well, more encouragement for burdy lovers. Good job!

[MightyMicah]

Free advertisement! I'll take it! And love for birds. I approve

[Reveals]

I agree, low lvls birds are useless under 50

[Itoopeo]

Actually 45 pure dex birds are decent due to that ballista damage (220) you can kite opponets quite well and still make large damage. But if you dont know how to kite you will get pwned hard.
71 molten birds are really similiar to 45 fortune birds (the sets even look same!)